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[lednerg]

I think everyone is confusing the fact that Retro was founded by Iguana's founder Jeff Spangenberg, who was then later kicked out during Retro's restructuring...

But they may have picked up some Iguana members once the studio finally dissolved, though...

Yup. Guess I'll link to the best article about the early days of Retro Studios again.

 

[Sis Focaccia]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_Wii_video_games

Total Wii games sold as of March 31, 2011: 716.09 million.[1]
Total Virtual Console games sold as of December 31, 2007: over 10 million[31]

Huh, that's less VC titles than I would have thought, really...



On the Call of Duty issue I think it's likely Wii U will have the superior version of Black Ops 2.

 

[AceBandage]

This thread reached 61 pages in 2 days? What is this madness.

THIS IS NINTENDO!

 

[Shurayuki]

Well, with the Nintendo situation in Korea, I think a lot of developers in that country honestly didn't think Nintendo would have a hit. And sure, Wii hasn't sold THAT immensely there, but I think their console marketshare in Korea increased by about 1000% over what they were selling from their shady-ass suppliers there who sold unlocalized games. Some Wii games are MILLION-SELLERS, and 5 years ago, a console game selling that high in Korea would have been a pipe dream. So it's a solid first run that I think will get Korean developers' attention, especially if they want to make games that would be better suited to controllers than keyboards and mice.

Nexon surely paid attention, even though I haven't heard a lot about MapleStory DS performance. If they could have something like that with actual online it could be huge (also something like MapleStory 2 on Wii-U). Most of what I heard about Korea was people complaining that everybody used flashcards on their DS hehe.
But those markets are really interesting and I think will be a focal point, asia seems to be on the rise in, well asia, whereas the west seems content with it's own releases too. i hope we don't see too big a divide, importing is so costly.

This thread reached 61 pages in 2 days? What is this madness.

Don't be silly it's a mere 31 pages ;P

 

[DragonSworne]

What are you guys even talking about when you say 'dudebro shooter'? If you mean "cinematic Call of Duty clone" or something then I don't think you'll ever see anything quite like that from Nintendo.

I think Nintendo has learned over the years, from multiple failed titles, that trying to copycat successful games from other developers rarely works. For all Nintendo's supposed milking of their franchises, they almost never make clone titles of big games from other developers.

The problem is all there attempts have been by unproven second parties...

I don't think anyone with EAD or there best second parties has any interesting in making a COD clone, with the exception of Retro.

 

[Boogybro]

This thread reached 61 pages in 2 days? What is this madness.

It's not even on page 32, buddy. Slowest thread of all 4.

 

[Father_Brain]

I thought Spangenberg left on his own accord. Something to do with embarrassing photos.

IIRC, there was a site called sinful-summer.com which featured photos of Spangenberg in a hot tub with topless women.

The site was registered to one of Retro's mailing addresses.

 

[EatChildren]

However, that said, I really think they should try and secure Time Splitters from Crytek as an exclusive.
The humor fits in with Nintendo's style, and it has a good following, without it being a giant franchise.

True but if there's a one developer that can do it, it's Retro. I wouldn't mind a shooter as long as it doesn't try to be like CoD.

See being a shooter, especially TimeSplitters, isn't 'dudebro'. Its a weird, generic and hugely vague term. Like, is Uncharted dudebro? Because it's thematically, mechanically, paced and presented differently to Call of Duty, despite both being heavily linear cinematic shooters.

You can do just as much with shooters as you can with action games, role playing games, or anything. Especially when you stop adhering to genre definitions and blur the lines between a wide spread of game design philosophies.

This is why I don't think we'll see a, I guess 'typical', cinematic shooter from an internal Nintendo studio. I think if Nintendo really desperately wanted this, they'd seek out a major partnership deal with a studio well versed in this kind of game design, as the company is far less interested in buy-outs these days, and more interested in temporary partnerships. Even then, with behemoths like Call of Duty really the mainstay for that genre, Nintendo is more likely to work towards making sure those games have a place on their platforms.

If Nintendo were to, hypothetically, commission Retro to build a first or third person shooter, I think you'd end up with something surprisingly different to everything else on the market. Nintendo likes to play to two strengths: power of existing IPs, and new, original games. They don't like to copycat. At least, I see no evidence to suggest they do.

The problem is all there attempts have been by unproven second parties...

I don't think anyone with EAD or there best second parties has any interesting in making a COD clone, with the exception of Retro.

Yeah, which is why I feel they'd be more drawn to established studios, if they'd bother at all. Whether Nintendo has the smarts to execute their plan I do not know, but I feel Iwata's intentions with attracting the hardcore to the Wii U is less about Nintendo specifically making the kind of games that these people want, and moreso about making sure the games they play are on the platform in the first place. Nintendo's choice to go a generation behind hardware with the Wii burned them badly in that regard.

 

[Akai]

I thought Spangenberg left on his own accord. Something to do with embarrassing photos.

Well the official word from Nintendo is that he sold his shares and left willingly, if you know what I mean...

 

[AceBandage]

See being a shooter, especially TimeSplitters, isn't 'dudebro'. Its a weird, generic and hugely vague term. Like, is Uncharted dudebro? Because it's thematically, mechanically, paced and presented differently to Call of Duty, despite both being heavily linear cinematic shooters.

You can do just as much with shooters as you can with action games, role playing games, or anything. Especially when you stop adhering to genre definitions and blur the lines between a wide spread of game design philosophies.

This is why I don't think we'll see a, I guess 'typical', cinematic shooter from an internal Nintendo studio. I think if Nintendo really desperately wanted this, they'd seek out a major partnership deal with a studio well versed in this kind of game design, as the company is far less interested in buy-outs these days, and more interested in temporary partnerships. Even then, with behemoths like Call of Duty really the mainstay for that genre, Nintendo is more likely to work towards making sure those games have a place on their platforms.

If Nintendo were to, hypothetically, commission Retro to build a first or third person shooter, I think you'd end up with something surprisingly different to everything else on the market. Nintendo likes to play to two strengths: power of existing IPs, and new, original games. They don't like to copycat. At least, I see no evidence to suggest they do.

Right, I'm not suggesting they make a game exactly like CoD or Battlefield or GoW.
Which is why I said they should get Time Splitters. It fits exactly what Nintendo is about.
Quirky gameplay and story and unique elements.

 

[cyberheater]

I don't know why some devs muck about with the formula. I had high hopes for the last PC version but was bitterly disappointed when it turned out to be a generic looking space marine with dinosaurs.

I still would love them to carry on the original story but done with a nice modern game engine. Use the padlet to equip you Tekbow and for snipeing. Could also be used as a tracker.

 

[Akai]

I don't think anyone with EAD or there best second parties has any interesting in making a COD clone, with the exception of Retro.

How dare you insinuate that Retro would want to do a COD clone... =(

 

[AceBandage]

I don't know why some devs muck about with the formula. I had high hopes for the last PC version but was bitterly disappointed when it turned out to be a generic looking space marine with dinosaurs.

I still would love them to carry on the original story but done with a nice modern game engine. Use the padlet to equip you Tekbow and for snipeing. Could also be used as a tracker.

Because most modern (and pretty much all Western) devs lack creativity and will just copy what is popular.

 

[Linkhero1]

See being a shooter, especially TimeSplitters, isn't 'dudebro'. Its a weird, generic and hugely vague term. Like, is Uncharted dudebro? Because it's thematically, mechanically, paced and presented differently to Call of Duty, despite both being heavily linear cinematic shooters.

You can do just as much with shooters as you can with action games, role playing games, or anything. Especially when you stop adhering to genre definitions and blur the lines between a wide spread of game design philosophies.

This is why I don't think we'll see a, I guess 'typical', cinematic shooter from an internal Nintendo studio. I think if Nintendo really desperately wanted this, they'd seek out a major partnership deal with a studio well versed in this kind of game design, as the company is far less interested in buy-outs these days, and more interested in temporary partnerships. Even then, with behemoths like Call of Duty really the mainstay for that genre, Nintendo is more likely to work towards making sure those games have a place on their platforms.

If Nintendo were to, hypothetically, commission Retro to build a first or third person shooter, I think you'd end up with something surprisingly different to everything else on the market. Nintendo likes to play to two strengths: power of existing IPs, and new, original games. They don't like to copycat. At least, I see no evidence to suggest they do.

This is what I believe as well. I don't see them creating a game to compete with CoD like all other developers. They would probably end up creating a whole different experience all together if Retro's game is indeed a FPS or TPS.

Right, I'm not suggesting they make a game exactly like CoD or Battlefield or GoW.
Which is why I said they should get Time Splitters. It fits exactly what Nintendo is about.
Quirky gameplay and story and unique elements.

Timesplitters 2 is one of my favorite games from the previous gen. If Nintendo can secure Timesplitters as an exclusive that alone would make me buy a Wii U.

 

[EatChildren]

Because most modern (and pretty much all Western) devs lack creativity and will just copy what is popular.

This is horseshit of the richest quality.

 

[-Pyromaniac-]

Yeah, which is why I feel they'd be more drawn to established studios, if they'd bother at all. Whether Nintendo has the smarts to execute their plan I do not know, but I feel Iwata's intentions with attracting the hardcore to the Wii U is less about Nintendo specifically making the kind of games that these people want, and moreso about making sure the games they play are on the platform in the first place. Nintendo's choice to go a generation behind hardware with the Wii burned them badly in that regard.

the whole "check that box" thing backs that up pretty well.

 

[AceBandage]

This is horseshit of the richest quality.

Maybe a bit hyperbolic, but come on.
Every publisher tries to copy whatever is the flavor of the month.
How many Just Dance rip offs have we seen? Guitar Hero? Call of Duty?

It's insane that people don't call them out on this stuff. We see so much copying, especially from Western devs.

And then we have, within the same franchise, a horrible dumbing down of sequels and expansions (the most notorious one being Dragon Age 2).

Devs (or I suppose publishers) simply are completely risk adverse, which is a huge problem with this industry.

 

[Linkhero1]

the whole "check that box" thing backs that up pretty well.

I thought that whole "check that box" scheme was just PR from Reggie. Remember how he said we'll be able to "check the box" for online the same week they revealed the Wii U? Well we're still waiting on that and hopefully that will be checked off this E3.

 

[Redford]

This 3rd party conspiracy has some valid points but to say that they avoid the Wii because of a lack of creativity is to forget that the Wii not only limits you in graphical power but in pretty much all other aspects of gameplay as well.

Yeah, I want an Assassin's Creed port where there are 1/6 as many NPCs walking around in a city 3x smaller.

I get the argument, and I believe its true that devs are in the wrong for the simple fact that the Wii is the market leader and they aren't biting, but come on.

 

[BY2K]

I know I'm a bit late on this, but what the hell does kool-aid has to do with any of the stuff going on here?

Haven't drink the stuff in years!

 

[Diablos54]

Because most modern (and pretty much all Western) devs lack creativity and will just copy what is popular.

Come on Ace, this is just silly. There are a hell of a lot of creative Western devs, RETRO being just one example.

 

[AceBandage]

I know I'm a bit late on this, but what the hell does kool-aid has to do with any of the stuff going on here?

Haven't drink the stuff in years!

It's a really old call back to cults that would poison their punch and make their members drink it so they would all die at the same time.

Come on Ace, this is just silly. There are a hell of a lot of creative Western devs, RETRO being one example.

Retro is part of Nintendo, though, who is not a risk adverse company.

 

[Snakeyes]

This is horseshit of the richest quality.

Ace is right though. Devs may not lack creativity, but the suits refuse to approve projects that are not "safe" for financial reasons.

Just look at what had to be done to SSX for it to be greenlit.

 

[EatChildren]

Maybe a bit hyperbolic, but come on.
Every publisher tries to copy whatever is the flavor of the month.
How many Just Dance rip offs have we seen? Guitar Hero? Call of Duty?

It's insane that people don't call them out on this stuff. We see so much copying, especially from Western devs.

And then we have, within the same franchise, a horrible dumbing down of sequels and expansions (the most notorious one being Dragon Age 2).

Devs (or I suppose publishers) simply are completely risk adverse, which is a huge problem with this industry.

And for every dumb Western developer cloning the current trending blockbuster is another Japanese developer shitting out a generic JRPG grind fest, figher or loli game. Unoriginality is everywhere, and yes a problem. But the idea that "pretty much all Western devs lack creativity" isn't just hyperbolic, it's an embarrassing generalisation and totally inaccurate.

It stinks of a statement from someone who doesn't play games developed by Western studios or simply isn't interested in them, and is in turn trying to discredit the work of an entire chunk of the industry.

Ace is right though. Devs may not lack creativity, but the suits refuse to approve projects that are not "safe".

Just look at what had to be done to SSX for it to be greenlit.

Then Ace should say "big publishers like EA, Ubisoft and co prioritise revenue more than anything, preferring tried and true development models and genres guaranteed to bring in cash versus adventurous design and creative risks". Instead he said that pretty much all Western devs lack creativity. There's a big difference there.

 

[BY2K]

It's a really old call back to cults that would poison their punch and make their members drink it so they would all die at the same time.

Retro is part of Nintendo, though, who is not a risk adverse company.

What about Valve? Vigil (Darksiders was a Zelda-like, yes, but number II clearly has its own identity, now.) Lionhead? All the indie games (it's still Western, it counts!)

 

[Diablos54]

Retro is part of Nintendo, though, who is not a risk adverse company.

I would still call them a Western developer though. There are lots of Western developers who take risks, maybe not as many have been able to this gen but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

And for every dumb Western developer cloning the current trending blockbuster is another Japanese developer shitting out a generic JRPG grind fest...

Not enough this gen though. I miss my RPG's. (Thank god for handhelds!)

 

[HylianTom]

This is why I don't think we'll see a, I guess 'typical', cinematic shooter from an internal Nintendo studio. I think if Nintendo really desperately wanted this, they'd seek out a major partnership deal with a studio well versed in this kind of game design, as the company is far less interested in buy-outs these days, and more interested in temporary partnerships. Even then, with behemoths like Call of Duty really the mainstay for that genre, Nintendo is more likely to work towards making sure those games have a place on their platforms.

If Nintendo were to, hypothetically, commission Retro to build a first or third person shooter, I think you'd end up with something surprisingly different to everything else on the market. Nintendo likes to play to two strengths: power of existing IPs, and new, original games. They don't like to copycat. At least, I see no evidence to suggest they do.

This is why I'm hesitant to rule-out buying or playing a Retro shooter (or shooters from some other studios, to be honest). The genre isn't my favorite, but it's broad enough such that while most might not pique my interest, some creative developer might invent some kind of game with a mechanic or two that just grabs me.

 

[AceBandage]

And for every dumb Western developer cloning the current trending blockbuster is another Japanese developer shitting out a generic JRPG grind fest, figher or loli game. Unoriginality is everywhere, and yes a problem. But the idea that "pretty much all Western devs lack creativity" isn't just hyperbolic, it's an embarrassing generalisation and totally inaccurate.

It stinks of a statement from someone who doesn't play games developed by Western studios or simply isn't interested in them, and is in turn trying to discredit the work of an entire chunk of the industry.

You're right that I have little interest in a good portion of Western games (the CoD's most specifically), but I also have no interest in most RPGs or Loli games.

Give me more stuff like No More Heroes/Lolipop Chainsaw.
Give me more Kid Icarus.
Give me more Mirror's Edge.

I'm just tired of seeing stagnation, and I'm sorry, a lot of it comes from Western publishers, at least in my eyes.

What about Valve? Vigil (Darksiders was a Zelda-like, yes, but number II clearly has its own identity, now.) Lionhead? All the indie games (it's still Western, it counts!)

I should have made my first post clearer. It was less about developers, and more about publishers.

 

[Redford]

Retro is part of Nintendo, though, who is not a risk adverse company.

Oh Ace, you're kicking it in to high-gear today.

 

[Shurayuki]

I know I'm a bit late on this, but what the hell does kool-aid has to do with any of the stuff going on here?

Haven't drink the stuff in years!

When everybody says "Oh no" we say "Oh yeah"?
Can't even buy the stuff where I live

^oh? they used kool-aid? never heard that connection but the story is everywhere huh. The more you know!

 

[Diablos54]

Give me more Mirror's Edge.

And who made that, eh?

 

[AceBandage]

And who made that, eh?

A company that refuses to fund a sequel despite fan outcry.

 

[TheExplodingHead]

This is horseshit of the richest quality.

Obviously not for every western developer, but it's true for a lot primarily mechanically. Why else have there been practically no advances in the pure mechanics and core reflex gameplay of a FPS? Why else has almost every western dev copied the RE4 camera instead of coming up with new and possibly more suited cameras and aiming schemes for that particular game (lest we not forget there were many reasons for RE4's camera beyond aesthetic, where it tried to replicate claustrophobia for design reasons).

Most western dev's mainly in the FPS/TPS stable are perfectly fine regurgitating a popular set of mechanics and aesthetic functions and putting their own "spin on it". But asking them to be distinctly creative with design/mechanics/aesthetic/gameplay is like asking a dog not to piss on a fire hydrant.

 

[HylianTom]

This 3rd party conspiracy has some valid points but to say that they avoid the Wii because of a lack of creativity is to forget that the Wii not only limits you in graphical power but in pretty much all other aspects of gameplay as well.

Yeah, I want an Assassin's Creed port where there are 1/6 as many NPCs walking around in a city 3x smaller.

I get the argument, and I believe its true that devs are in the wrong for the simple fact that the Wii is the market leader and they aren't biting, but come on.

Pretty much.

Like others, I think the lack of power doomed the Wii.. but I also see it as a cheap excuse. For decades, developers were able to create fantastic games with power levels less than that of the Wii, and suddenly they're not able to just because there's a more powerful option? Give me a break! If the "we want to develop for the more powerful option" were a truly valid argument, we'd see a lot more PC development.

We saw a lot of excuses over the past six years, and I would have been much more respectful if they had just come out and been honest about why they avoided the more sustainable market leader. That they bullshitted us in many instances is what had led me to a rather harsh stance on most of them. Poor, poor developers.. let me shed a tear for them - not.

 

[BurntPork]

What are you guys even talking about when you say 'dudebro shooter'? If you mean "cinematic Call of Duty clone" or something then I don't think you'll ever see anything quite like that from Nintendo.

I think Nintendo has learned over the years, from multiple failed titles, that trying to copycat successful games from other developers rarely works. For all Nintendo's supposed milking of their franchises, they almost never make clone titles of big games from other developers.

If only Capcpom thought that way. RIP fun Resident Evil games.

 

[Diablos54]

A company that refuses to fund a sequel despite fan outcry.

We're lucky we even got it in the first place.

If only Capcpom thought that way. RIP fun Resident Evil games.

Indeed, I hate RE5. At least Revelations was good, even if no-one brought it

 

[BY2K]

I should have made my first post clearer. It was less about developers, and more about publishers.

I don't understand how that makes it more true.

EDIT: Oh, I see. But c'mon, you just have to dig a little and you'll find some gems of originality.

 

[EatChildren]

Give me more stuff like No More Heroes/Lolipop Chainsaw.
Give me more Kid Icarus.
Give me more Mirror's Edge.

I'm just tired of seeing stagnation, and I'm sorry, a lot of it comes from Western publishers, at least in my eyes.

Lolipop Chainsaw's creativity lies entirely within its presentation. Mechanically it looks like a generic by-the-books brawler. I want it, but come on.

You're basically ignoring everything from Western publishers and developers that doesn't interest you for subjective taste reasons (which is fine) and applying blanket, incorrect generalisations to them like 'uncreative'. How can you not see how silly and blind sighted this is?

Obviously not for every western developer, but it's true for a lot primarily mechanically. Why else have there been practically no advances in the pure mechanics and core reflex gameplay of a FPS? Why else has almost every western dev copied the RE4 camera instead of coming up with new and possibly more suited cameras and aiming schemes for that particular game (lest we not forget there were many reasons for RE4's camera beyond aesthetic, where it tried to replicate claustrophobia for design reasons).

Most western dev's mainly in the FPS/TPS stable are perfectly fine regurgitating a popular set of mechanics and aesthetic functions and putting their own "spin on it". But asking them to be distinctly creative with design/mechanics/aesthetic/gameplay is like asking a dog not to piss on a fire hydrant.

Same reason the same shit is happening all over the world, including Japan: because money hungry publishers would rather make safe bets versus risky ones. It's not a Western problem. It is a global industry problem.

 

[impact]

You're right that I have little interest in a good portion of Western games (the CoD's most specifically), but I also have no interest in most RPGs or Loli games.

Give me more stuff like No More Heroes/Lolipop Chainsaw.
Give me more Kid Icarus.
Give me more Mirror's Edge.

I'm just tired of seeing stagnation, and I'm sorry, a lot of it comes from Western publishers, at least in my eyes.





I should have made my first post clearer. It was less about developers, and more about publishers.

You should play Shadows of the Damned

Suda :bow

 

[AceBandage]

We're lucky we even got it in the first place.

Exactly my point, though. We're lucky to see creativity, when it use to be more of a norm.

I don't understand how that makes it more true.

Because publishers are the ones that ok these games (besides indie games, but those are always far more creative since they aren't bound to anything besides the maker).

 

[Deguello]

This 3rd party conspiracy has some valid points but to say that they avoid the Wii because of a lack of creativity is to forget that the Wii not only limits you in graphical power but in pretty much all other aspects of gameplay as well.

Yeah, I want an Assassin's Creed port where there are 1/6 as many NPCs walking around in a city 3x smaller.

I get the argument, and I believe its true that devs are in the wrong for the simple fact that the Wii is the market leader and they aren't biting, but come on.

Didn't seem to bother 3rd parties when they were all on the PS1, which struggled to run SNES games released 4 years prior. They somehow made do without the most technology.

Anyway, I don't know what running Assassin's Creed has to do with 3rd parties being uncreative. You can be creative without having a lot of power, or hell, ANY power, as app games can prove.

 

[Linkhero1]

I don't understand how that makes it more true.

I'm guessing he didn't mean to say that Western Devs lack creativity but rather that Western Publishers lack the want of creativity and want something more along the lines of CoD. Sorry if I'm mistaken Ace.


Still I kind of disagree with what he's saying.

 

[DragonSworne]

So what is it about Xbox360 that makes it the perferred choice of gamers for multiplatform games?

Is it the amount of games?
Is it Xbox live?
Is it because it came out first?
Is it the graphics?
Is it the hype/advertisement?

 

[Shurayuki]

If only Capcpom thought that way. RIP fun Resident Evil games.

There's RE:R!
There's Hope!

Capcom pretty much buried classical RE with their comments about where the franchise should head, but maybe Nintendo getting knock-offs could pay there, establish a niche guys!

 

[AceBandage]

So what is it about Xbox360 that makes it the perferred choice of gamers for multiplatform games?

Is it the amount games?
Is it Xbox live?
Is it because it came out first?
Is it the graphics?

It's most similar to a PC and uses Direct X.

 

[Linkhero1]

So what is it about Xbox360 that makes it the perferred choice of gamers for multiplatform games?

Is it the amount games?
Is it Xbox live?
Is it because it came out first?
Is it the graphics?

I think it's a mix of all those, but especially their online service.

 

[DragonSworne]

It's most similar to a PC and uses Direct X.

I mean for gamers, not developers.

 

[Guilty Bystander]

Ace is right though. Devs may not lack creativity, but the suits refuse to approve projects that are not "safe" for financial reasons.

Just look at what had to be done to SSX for it to be greenlit.

^^^ That's the real problem. Most devs have loads of creativity but no freedom to pull the trigger and start the project. Only a few do like for example Blizzard and we all know by the quality of their products what can be achieved.

 

[HylianTom]

So what is it about Xbox360 that makes it the perferred choice of gamers for multiplatform games?

Is it the amount of games?
Is it Xbox live?
Is it because it came out first?
Is it the graphics?
Is it the hype/advertisement?

I think it's a combination of ease of use, social factors, online, achievements, comfort with controls, etc etc.

 

[Redford]

Pretty much.

Like others, I think the lack of power doomed the Wii.. but I also see it as a cheap excuse. For decades, developers were able to create fantastic games with power levels less than that of the Wii, and suddenly they're not able to just because there's a more powerful option? Give me a break! If the more powerful option were a valid argument, we'd see a lot more PC development.

No, but the PS360 were the more optimal option development for a variety of reasons. Just because Nintendo stayed behind a generation and some people aren't happy with the consequences is not a "reason" why devs should be full of shame.

I would be quite sad if efforts weren't focused on the HD twins, now that Nintendo is entering 7th gen performance. We got alot of great games that, barring the clones, really advanced the medium as a whole. Sure, alot of that was production value, but alot of it was behind the scenes and yes, gameplay too, believe it or not.

Sorry, I just woke up so I'm a lil cranky.