D
Deleted member 47027
Unconfirmed Member
Rock can run on his instincts and be fine, but he'll gas fast. Doesn't mean he can't make it work within his limits. He's fine.
WWE Raw drops to lowest TV rating in 18 years
- Thread starter RBH
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Rock can run on his instincts and be fine, but he'll gas fast. Doesn't mean he can't make it work within his limits. He's fine.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
Unpredictable, wild moments still happen now. They happened in the 70s and 80s too.
People just like the Attitude Era because they watched it when they were kids or young adults. Everyone feels that way about anything that was big in their prime years. It's the basis for the entire Republican Party.
Quoting Trips: "you're built for show, I'm built to go."
Rock has gassed in every match he's had in the last few years. He can't wrestle with all that weight.
Violence Jack
Member
Raw being TV-PG has no effect on the ratings as much as people like to believe this. No amount of tits, cussing, or blood is going to overcome shitty booking and weak storylines.
Acerac
Banned
Recently I've been rewatching late 90s wrestling, my boyfriend has been joining me despite never seeing these shows before.
The difference is night and day. There was a while when he wouldn't even let me watch a Raw without him as he was afraid he'd miss something from this decades old show. It was so unpredictable, so crazy that he just had so see what was happening next.
It's not nostalgia, it's a better show.
SpideySenses
Member
The problem isn't that he can't go, it's that he's a big movie star with I believe Baywatch filming now, so if he gets injured, there's big money issues. A hot tag, rock bottom and people's elbow should be fine though.
Jericho too.
So who are their full-timers left that people actually like that are wrestling at Mania?
Dean Ambrose
Kevin Owens
New Day
AJ Styles
Baraka in the White House
2-Terms of Kombat
Rock reached that point in bodybuilding when all that muscle starts to affect your endurance, agility, and general athleticism. Sure, he can push a loaded dump truck up a hill but he can't bounce around a ring for a whole match without popping a tendon or three.
ElectricBlanketFire
Member
How could you forget the fun-loving, Slammy Award-winning tag team The Usos?!
Stallion Dan
Member
It's the era that made WWE wrestling popular outside the US again, it was popular in the 80s and very early 90s, then fell off the earth until 99-2000.
shaowebb
Member
Why would we ever want to remember them is a better question.
Something something Uce Uce Uce
Carnby
Member
This is what wrestling has become.
If you love watching women getting the shit beaten out of them by men twice and three times their size, be sure to watch!
The Silver
Member
its fake, fake fighting, not real. Men can get tossed around by guys 3 times there size, are women made out of wet tissue or something?
disclaimer: I don't watch LU, mainly cause I got too much other shit to watch
shaowebb
Member
Between Lucha Underground, New Japan, Dragon Gate stuff, and crazy indie guys that float through various feds like Zack Sabre Jr and Will OSpreay you have missed quite a lot of incredible stuff by digging at the scraps WWE gives you. Most of the real talent on the WWE roster is folks that are just getting buried for no real reason when they have more talent and ring ability than anything on the upper card. I pretty much feel like Vince just buys up anyone who becomes so big and huge anywhere else that they could potentially build a rival product around them and then buries them to "defuse" the situation before letting them go.This is what wrestling has become.
Alas, if you're just sticking to WWE you're missing a whole world of amazing shit, and this is JUST Lucha Underground.
Wednesdays at 7 Central on El Rey. Entire seasons available on iTunes.
If WWE leaves a bad taste in your mouth, there are alternatives that to everything better.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
The intergender matches are just really awkward and not even entertaining or dramatic, so there's no good reason to be doing it.
Carnby
Member
Nailed it.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
Or how about she doesn't meddle beyond being an on-air booker at all? What's with the straw man?
Mobile Suit Gooch
Grundle: The Awakening
Agreed.
ZombieSupaStar
Member
yeah this shit been on a downward trend since wcw/ecw folded.
Bushwackers 2016
sturgboski
Member
Woah, lets not start saying things we cant take back.
FlammableD
Banned
Let's go into the Marvel threads and tell them Black Widow can't fight dudes.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
Theyretalkingaboutfictionalcharacters.gif
If Rey Mysterio can fight and defeat Kane, I can accept a woman fighting a man in my fictional world of pro-wrestling. I find the whole argument of "it's not believable" or "it takes me out of the experience" to not hold much validity. Most of pro-wrestling doesn't do weight classes, or hold any believable things in the ring with what they do anyways. People get their head knocked off and then get up and immediately do a bunch of high flying stuff right after.
I get dizzy sometimes if I get up from the couch too fast because I was lying wrong or something. And here's a guy that gets a double dropkick to the face and he's not even woozy?
Next to nothing that happens in pro-wrestling is believable. It's fiction and in this fiction a 150 pound man can apparently legit beat a 300 pound man in fight. Well then, so can a woman beat a man.
I get dizzy sometimes if I get up from the couch too fast because I was lying wrong or something. And here's a guy that gets a double dropkick to the face and he's not even woozy?
Next to nothing that happens in pro-wrestling is believable. It's fiction and in this fiction a 150 pound man can apparently legit beat a 300 pound man in fight. Well then, so can a woman beat a man.
ftfy
the main event is undertaker vs shane mcmahon
I still don't understand how anyone thought this was a good idea or that anyone would care. I've not watch RAW since I heard Shane came back because I knew its would bring back all the terrible things of WWE circa 2001-2003.
D
Deleted member 47027
Unconfirmed Member
I have a bizarre relationship with the Attitude Era. Growing up watching the old WWF with the likes of Hogan and Macho Man all the way through with Bret Hart and Razor Ramon, I loved how the WWF's storylines focused primarily on feuds and build up to the championship match. Loved how colourful it was. The music was memorable. The wrestler's appearances and behaviour were memorable (Yokozuna, Legion of Doom, Golddust); some iconic (Undertaker, Ultimate Warrior, Shawn Michaels). When the attitude era arrived, I hated it and felt that it betrayed a lot of the fundamentals of what pro wrestling was about. Everyone dressed in dark colours (black/green). The rings looked dark. The wrestlers behaved bizarrely (From a kid's point of view). Storylines were alien. By my early teens, attitude era was in full swing. WWF catchphrases and signature moves frequently cropped up in classrooms and playgrounds. Creeping up behind a fellow people and surprise Stone Cold Stunner-ing them was almost as common as a casual hello. I still didn't enjoy the attitude even at that point. I just didn't really get it to be honest. My only enjoyment out of the attitude era were the N64 video games and that was primarily more because I was interested in video games as opposed to the WWF. Once the WCW/ECW takeover took place and the WWE was introduced I stopped paying attention it. That's when the hype died at school too. Perhaps it was because my classmates were all prepping up for college. The black Rock and Stone Cold t-shirts faded away. Point is, I didn't revisit the Attitude era until I was in college (around the time ECW One Night Stand 2005 came out) and fell in love with how out of the box it was. Nostalgia must've played a small part in it but all the ideas/storylines and match concepts that were incorporated into the WWF was outstanding. Reading up about how the company was struggling in ratings fueled the change was somewhat inspiring and daring. Vince took a massive risk alienating the safe family-friendly audience with the attitude era and it paid off well. Then, I obviously discovered how ECW pretty much did everything the Attitude era did years ago but that's another story.
Hearing about how great the TV-14 days were and how today's WWE TV-PG is garbage is a bit narrow-minded and unfair. WWF used the tough situation and stiff competition against WCW to think up of great ideas and concepts that captured audiences. Wrestlers had a lot of creative flexibility from what I remembered. Ideas were embraced. Risks were taken with storylines. Some were great and others were horrific but at least they tried right??? Today, WWE is a powerful brand and they already got a vast roster of excellent wrestlers that can capture audiences. They just need to take a few more risks and try new things. Attitude Era was a character in itself. Current day WWE feels like watching NFL or something. It's too glossy and safe. Good, fresh and out of the box thinking can bring WWE back. Shame that they don't have the serious competition to push them hard enough to change but it's still possible. WWE's problems today has nothing to do with the TV-PG rating at all.
D
Deleted member 47027
Unconfirmed Member
Appreciate the big writeup. Competition brought out the best and kept things fresh. WWE's biggest competition is themselves with NXT. While we entertain the idea of NJPW and Lucha Underground being competitors to WWE, they're not. I wish they had that kind of presence but they don't.
What's sad is that there was a point when TNA were almost almost considered as competitors. Hearing about all those Kurt Angle matches first time and I was like "You mean that patriotic dopey guy that wears his medal all the time?" and everyone was like "You just gonna watch him on TNA. He's incredible!" and that night I watched one of his TNA fights (I want to say against AJ Styles but I honestly can't remember) and it was surprisingly gripping! At that point, they had the momentum to push further. TNA was applauded as a good show and they were getting the attention they needed...and then something happened that just dropped them into the bottom of the ocean.
FlammableD
Banned
and? Wrestling is fiction
I think what made the attitude era good was not so much the sex and violence, because after a while it was so over the top and hamfisted, it lost its impact (thats the WWE solution to everything, if something works, drive it into the groud). I do think the contrast between SCSA and Mr McMahon was believable in context (especially after the Montreal screwjob, they also had faith in letting Mick Foley win the belt, and be who he was, and they let The Rock and Mr H have their time too. I think they did a decent job of promoting the under and middle card talent as well.
Still a lot of what happened there, were "happy accidents" or last resorts. Stone Cold wasn't going to be Stone Cold at first, Mick Foley was going to be saddled with a really terrible gimmick before he was allowed to adjust it, WCW holding Vince's feet to the fire simply demanded more out of him creatively, not to mention the damage that the steroid scandal and the general dislike of the new era cost the WWE at the time.
When the Attitude era started to wane, and the "invasion" storylines began, some longtime fans were already getting sick of the product. The McMahon family drama was EVERYWHERE and they had already turned on each other and the main eventers at some point so it was all old hand by then. But all they could think was "casual audiences love EVIL BOSS vs BLUE COLLAR GUY" and so it was rehashed and rehashed and rehashed (remember The Union?) Nobody cared.
Thats all that this will come down to. Either Shane will turn on the fans, or one of the McMahons will side with Shane, and it will still turn into the same boring shit show you saw 15 years ago. I don't think the authority as central antagonists is necessarily bad, when done with moderation, and done with some sense. People forget that when the whole SCSA vs Mr McMahon started, Vince was not the mega heel to every baby face in the company (I think Triple H made that jump after he and steph married kayfabe) he just hated Austin. He didn't like Shawn Michaels either, but Michaels would do business, and Vince thought he could contain him better. Vince didn't get involved with whoever had the IC belt (unless it was Austin related) or some other random crap, so it wasn't watered down. It later became that, and eventually it losts its appeal.
The problem is the authority has no rival that the fans believe in. They did with Daniel Bryan. They would with CM Punk (not happening), and down the line I think they could with Sami Zayn. But they need to stop feuding with mid carders like Dolph Ziggler, and stop using every heel as henchmen.
Still a lot of what happened there, were "happy accidents" or last resorts. Stone Cold wasn't going to be Stone Cold at first, Mick Foley was going to be saddled with a really terrible gimmick before he was allowed to adjust it, WCW holding Vince's feet to the fire simply demanded more out of him creatively, not to mention the damage that the steroid scandal and the general dislike of the new era cost the WWE at the time.
When the Attitude era started to wane, and the "invasion" storylines began, some longtime fans were already getting sick of the product. The McMahon family drama was EVERYWHERE and they had already turned on each other and the main eventers at some point so it was all old hand by then. But all they could think was "casual audiences love EVIL BOSS vs BLUE COLLAR GUY" and so it was rehashed and rehashed and rehashed (remember The Union?) Nobody cared.
Thats all that this will come down to. Either Shane will turn on the fans, or one of the McMahons will side with Shane, and it will still turn into the same boring shit show you saw 15 years ago. I don't think the authority as central antagonists is necessarily bad, when done with moderation, and done with some sense. People forget that when the whole SCSA vs Mr McMahon started, Vince was not the mega heel to every baby face in the company (I think Triple H made that jump after he and steph married kayfabe) he just hated Austin. He didn't like Shawn Michaels either, but Michaels would do business, and Vince thought he could contain him better. Vince didn't get involved with whoever had the IC belt (unless it was Austin related) or some other random crap, so it wasn't watered down. It later became that, and eventually it losts its appeal.
The problem is the authority has no rival that the fans believe in. They did with Daniel Bryan. They would with CM Punk (not happening), and down the line I think they could with Sami Zayn. But they need to stop feuding with mid carders like Dolph Ziggler, and stop using every heel as henchmen.
I've just started watching Raw/Smackdown again (via WWE network, so a month behind), and I do have to say...what happened?
For context I watched mainly from 2000 (Roughly the Undertaker's return) to around September 2002. After that I caught a hodge-podge of TNA, odd episodes of Raw, and really picked viewing back up when WWE Network launched in the UK.
There doesn't seem to be any sort of main event scene going on...you have Brock Lesnar (who I don't get on with, really), Triple H in some sort of semi-retirement, Roman Reigns who is just getting booed out of the house, and Dean Ambrose. I might plug Jericho and AJ in here but they seem to be in the usual Y2J wasteland (Better than the IC belt, but not QUITE the main event).
You head on down from there and you seem to have this non-sensical mix of people who all want to challenge Kevin Owens (Who has a wonderfully odd promo style, and seems to be interesting in the ring)...no actual proper feud...just "we are people who happen to work here". Why on earth, as well, an interesting gimmick like Bray Wyatt has been lumbered with his associates baffles me.
Also, I do have to ask (Given I saw his match with Liger before I caught up with things)....what happened to Tyler Breeze? He looked like a good shout as a decent wrestler and narcissist gimmick...and....well that seems to have vanished.
Finally...the announce team. It's so...bland. No Joey Styles "OH MY GOD", no Jim Ross "FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, STOP THE DAMN MATCH!!!!", just Byron Saxton being....inane.
I'll keep paying for the Network if only because NXT makes it worthwhile....as do some of the WWE proper women's matches (Natalya, Becky Lynch, Sasha Banks, Tamina and Charlotte seem promising from what I've seen). Not sure I like this whole "Divas Title" thing, mind...what was wrong with the WWE Women's Chamionship?
Very interesting that NXT seems to be using its 60 minutes a lot better than Raw uses damn near 2 and a half hours....
For context I watched mainly from 2000 (Roughly the Undertaker's return) to around September 2002. After that I caught a hodge-podge of TNA, odd episodes of Raw, and really picked viewing back up when WWE Network launched in the UK.
There doesn't seem to be any sort of main event scene going on...you have Brock Lesnar (who I don't get on with, really), Triple H in some sort of semi-retirement, Roman Reigns who is just getting booed out of the house, and Dean Ambrose. I might plug Jericho and AJ in here but they seem to be in the usual Y2J wasteland (Better than the IC belt, but not QUITE the main event).
You head on down from there and you seem to have this non-sensical mix of people who all want to challenge Kevin Owens (Who has a wonderfully odd promo style, and seems to be interesting in the ring)...no actual proper feud...just "we are people who happen to work here". Why on earth, as well, an interesting gimmick like Bray Wyatt has been lumbered with his associates baffles me.
Also, I do have to ask (Given I saw his match with Liger before I caught up with things)....what happened to Tyler Breeze? He looked like a good shout as a decent wrestler and narcissist gimmick...and....well that seems to have vanished.
Finally...the announce team. It's so...bland. No Joey Styles "OH MY GOD", no Jim Ross "FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, STOP THE DAMN MATCH!!!!", just Byron Saxton being....inane.
I'll keep paying for the Network if only because NXT makes it worthwhile....as do some of the WWE proper women's matches (Natalya, Becky Lynch, Sasha Banks, Tamina and Charlotte seem promising from what I've seen). Not sure I like this whole "Divas Title" thing, mind...what was wrong with the WWE Women's Chamionship?
Very interesting that NXT seems to be using its 60 minutes a lot better than Raw uses damn near 2 and a half hours....
D
Deleted member 47027
Unconfirmed Member
60 minutes is a heck of a lot easier to keep coherent and focused than 5+ hours a week. Just the way it is.
Don't argue this point, dude. People will never stop thinking if Raw/Smackdown were booked like NXT then they'd enjoy wrestling more. CM Punk's been gone two years and wasn't a draw, but people likewise think he'd save the WWE and bring on a new golden era of ratings/buyrates.
Raw/Smackdown wouldn't work like NXT because the marquee shows don't function as well with Big names gone 1 week in 3. But I would say it does speak to a failure in either the amount or quality of the writing staff. If you can't handle a 3 hour show, your audience is hating it, and you're making too much money to not have it be 3 hours then you need to look at what you're showing. I don't think the wrestling is the problem....there seems to be more than enough competent talent....but who's fighting and what they're fighting for seems very....murky.
I'm a month behind (Because WWE Network) and it seems to me that there's a lot of 6 man tag matches as excuses to mention someone's name on TV without actually having a reason for them to be there. I remember days where almost every match top to bottom had a reason to be there...but then these were days when you regularly had the Hardcore, European, Intercontinental, Tag, and Women's Titles defended on the same show...it was easier to have a reason to fight as opposed to the League of Nations, and Social Outcasts wandering round looking like they're in need of somrthing to do.
Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!
Member
Wrestling did used to be booked like NXT.
The only reason WWE ever started doing a live 2 hour show with 12 PPVS a year was to keep up with WCW.
That's the whole reason Smackdown exists too.
NXT does a lot of things right besides just how the show is structured.
- They book to a wrestler's strengths, instead of shoehorning them anywhere on the card
- Most of the promos are unscripted (they'll just get talking points of what to hit). So they get to develop the material themselves and buy into it
- They will hype new talent that is debuting for weeks with vignettes/promo packages, and then they will push them hard once they show up.
- They will play promo packages to put over talent in the midcard or hype a midcard match up.
- Things make logical sense from week to week and most talent has a direction and a reason for being there.
- They book to a wrestler's strengths, instead of shoehorning them anywhere on the card
- Most of the promos are unscripted (they'll just get talking points of what to hit). So they get to develop the material themselves and buy into it
- They will hype new talent that is debuting for weeks with vignettes/promo packages, and then they will push them hard once they show up.
- They will play promo packages to put over talent in the midcard or hype a midcard match up.
- Things make logical sense from week to week and most talent has a direction and a reason for being there.
The feuds and angles are simple to follow as well. A newcomer could figure out why say Apollo Crews and Baron Corbin don't like each other, or why Samoa Joe is the "bad guy" vs Finn Balor. NXT does a pretty good job of that in ring storytelling. The promos are just enough to pique interest in the match itself.
It hasn't been booked that way in 20 years. And WCW's been gone for fifteen of those twenty years. It can't move back to that approach again. If you tell people for fifteen minutes this is how we do things, it'll take years to deprogram what they expect from a wrestling show.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
The difference is that would be entertaining, which is what these fictional universes are supposed to be.
Intergender pro wrestling matches are often just good for comedy spots. LU's women vs men matches are garbage. Don't bother unless you've got someone like Kharma or even Charlotte. Otherwise it's frustrating watching big dudes sell for someone with the size of Spike Dudley.
Acerac
Banned
You mean they don't have a Stephanie McMahon equivalent that is horribly grating but never gets any real comeuppance? They may have characters like Chyna that show that sometimes women can compete with men?
You may have legitimately sold me on the show, thanks.
ftfy
the main event is undertaker vs shane mcmahon
Good god that is horrible. I'm missing nothing at all in the WWE currently.
Speedy Blue Dude
Banned
Wait wasn't The Rock supposed to be at Mania this year?
stn
Member
As a non-fan of wrestling, I'll chime in on why it sucks. Because its corny as hell. We already know the fighting isn't real, so the promotional material that accompanies it should sell the fake realism as much as possible. But that's hard when your main character, Roman Reigns, is a pretty boy whose main move is a flying punch.
And you have crap like Shane McMahon facing Undertaker? The last time I legitimately watched wrestling, Shane McMahon was still in the ring. That's just sad. They don't need to bring back the Attitude Era, but they should definitely add some grit to the product. I watched the CM Punk unscripted promo on Youtube years ago, where he dissed everyone in the company - that was cool. It felt raw and real. Hell, I might even watch a Raw or two if they ever make the product more mature.
And you have crap like Shane McMahon facing Undertaker? The last time I legitimately watched wrestling, Shane McMahon was still in the ring. That's just sad. They don't need to bring back the Attitude Era, but they should definitely add some grit to the product. I watched the CM Punk unscripted promo on Youtube years ago, where he dissed everyone in the company - that was cool. It felt raw and real. Hell, I might even watch a Raw or two if they ever make the product more mature.
He will be there.
JesseEwiak
Member
Give me a good 15 minute six man match that builds to a bigger match down the line instead of a pointless 4 minute defense of the IC title (which most of those title defense were during the AE) with a possible title switch as "swerve" any day of the week.
But, your post does show how the AE ruined wrestling. Wrestling fans used to have patience. NWA fans waited 18 months for Ron Garvin to beat Ric Flair. Now, if every week doesn't have a swerve, a title switch, and 3 five star matches, it's "boring."
Go back and actually watch those old NWA shows they have on the Network. A lot of the time, by modern standards, "nothing happened" but the show was still awesome.
The WWE has booking problems, but the solutions put forth by the average smart fan is worse than the current issues.
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