WWE Raw drops to lowest TV rating in 18 years

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Liu Kang Baking A Pie said:
Last year's Wrestlemania was hot dog shit, but let's not forget nearly the entire card was reworked that winter because many top stars were out with injuries. This year is along the same lines. This is no excuse, of course, because we all know Vince is way out of touch, but I think it's important to remember this is a LIVE three-times-a-week-minimum television product with a lot of moving parts. Not every year is going to be a winner, and I wouldn't have wanted any of these things you're mentioning followed up on anyway.
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No it's not along the same lines as the only guy who got injured that changed anything was Finn.

This card is the way it is because:

- Goldberg got over
- Vince decided to push Roman hard again so shuffled things round so he fights taker instead of cena
- Vince absolutely botched the raw womens division in the last three months to an astounding degree
- Shane wanted a match with AJ and Vince said yes
- Vince owed Orton a favour for the hardway last year.

Card sucks because of Vince basically.
 
Sir_Crocodile said:
No it's not along the same lines as the only guy who got injured that changed anything was Finn.

This card is the way it is because:

- Goldberg got over
- Vince decided to push Roman hard again so shuffled things round so he fights taker instead of cena
- Vince absolutely botched the raw womens division in the last three months to an astounding degree
- Shane wanted a match with AJ and Vince said yes
- Vince owed Orton a favour for the hardway last year.

Card sucks because of Vince basically.
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Have you ever spoken to Vince McMahon to know literally any of this? What is this? Meltzer told us the card months ago and was spot on.

I don't know dudes, I'm way over the negativity, and always have been. I poke in these wrestling threads, and it's the same shit I was reading from similar guys since 2004 on this forum. Can we change at least, if Vince McMahon can't? I truly don't understand why people would watch and talk about something that frustrates and bores them.
 
Sir_Crocodile said:
Exactly, so why are you saying it's due to injuries?

(women's match changed and then changed back, all the others are the reasons for meltz's jan list)
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Finn Balor was Universal champion within his first month on the roster. He was the plan. Seth had to turn to take his spot. I could be way off, but I don't see how Goldberg vs Brock Lesnar for the Universal Championship was in the cards from that setup.
 
Liu Kang Baking A Pie said:
I truly don't understand why people would watch and talk about something that frustrates and bores them.
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Because wrestling can be really, really good sometimes. Unfortunately you have to sit through a LOT of bad/dumb shit to get to those occasional gems.

However with ratings continuing to reach new lows, people are obviously learning to skip the "sit through bad shit" part and just come back periodically to check it out when something cool happens.
 
Such bullshit that Brock is only taking the title so Roman can get it. So fucking dumb to not build up Finn, Nak or AJ to take the title from Brock. Nobody likes Roman and he will never ever be another Cena. Why the fuck not invest in guys that the fans love and can use the mega push? 34 is gonna be a bigger shit show
 
Liu Kang Baking A Pie said:
Finn Balor was Universal champion within his first month on the roster. He was the plan. Seth had to turn to take his spot. I could be way off, but I don't see how Goldberg vs Brock Lesnar for the Universal Championship was in the cards from that setup.
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Goldberg vs Lesnar at mania was on the cards since Survivor Series. It being for the Universal Championship is a possible tweak, but they may have gone that way anyway given the plans for next years mania.
 
Host Samurai said:
Nobody likes Roman and he will never ever be another Cena.
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He already is Cena: the biggest heel on the show, always in main events, always using generic catchphrases and messages, and still selling that merch and those tickets.

I wonder when The Internet will realize Roman is purposely being booked this way to be your heel. Consider all of his opponents, aren't they always super babyfaces to you or guys you already really liked? Weird!
 
Liu Kang Baking A Pie said:
He already is Cena: the biggest heel on the show, always in main events, always using generic catchphrases and messages, and still selling that merch and those tickets.

I wonder when The Internet will realize Roman is purposely being booked this way to be your heel. Consider all of his opponents, aren't they always super babyfaces to you or guys you already really liked? Weird!
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He's not selling anywhere near Cena merch and he doesn't affect house show numbers at all and sells no tickets, and he doesn't get the same reaction at house shows as Cena does.

Raw viewership with no sports contention lost 250k with him in the main even this week too.
 
Sir_Crocodile said:
No but I can give you the address of the wrestling observer which you can subscribe to.

This is all easily available information.
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I do!

I think WO's main contribution to wrestling has been this awful cynicism and sarcasm regarding every aspect of it. Alvarez's podcasts are just negativity and poison to anyone's ears, and while Meltzer is definitely still a big fan, he says the stupidest shit just to work up smarks (like the "hold harmless" thing applying to non-kayfabe DB). I don't want anything to do with this side of the IWC; I've loved wrestling since the first time I ever saw it, and I don't know why I'd waste my only short life watching and talking daily about something I didn't fully love when there are billions of hobbies.
 
Host Samurai said:
Such bullshit that Brock is only taking the title so Roman can get it. So fucking dumb to not build up Finn, Nak or AJ to take the title from Brock. Nobody likes Roman and he will never ever be another Cena. Why the fuck not invest in guys that the fans love and can use the mega push? 34 is gonna be a bigger shit show
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Because all the guys you listed are within spitting distance of 40 and Roman is 31 and already one of the best workers in the company while also selling more merch than all the guys you listed.

Plenty of people like Roman, they're just not "real fans" in the eyes of the Internet.
 
Liu Kang Baking A Pie said:
I do!

I think WO's main contribution to wrestling has been this awful cynicism and sarcasm regarding every aspect of it. Alvarez's podcasts are just negativity and poison to anyone's ears, and while Meltzer is definitely still a big fan, he says the stupidest shit just to work up smarks (like the "hold harmless" thing applying to non-kayfabe DB). I don't want anything to do with this side of the IWC.
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Fine, but everything I've said on this page is booking decisions and sales numbers, and meltz doesn't work people on those.

Very little of the card has changed due to injuries, and Roman doesn't move any needles.
 
Liu Kang Baking A Pie said:
He already is Cena: the biggest heel on the show, always in main events, always using generic catchphrases and messages, and still selling that merch and those tickets.

I wonder when The Internet will realize Roman is purposely being booked this way to be your heel. Consider all of his opponents, aren't they always super babyfaces to you or guys you already really liked? Weird!
Click to expand...


He's booked as a boring face that tries too hard. Forcing feeding him down our throats much worse than Cena. Cena can at least get reactions and has talent. Cena has the ability to put on some awesome matches and is amazing on the mic. I was never a Cena fan, but I can recognize how talented the guy is.

Roman has little talent in comparison and is a ratings killer. He gets nothing but boo's, no mixed reactions like Cena. His matches are not fun and his moves are even more cartoony than Cena (Superman Punch?) . His career is forever ruined because of the Bryan debacle and that CM Punk interview.

Fans do not like being told who to cheer for in 2017. Matters are made worse when the WWE forces its Roman propaganda like the Trump Administration.
 
Liu Kang Baking A Pie said:
I do!

I think WO's main contribution to wrestling has been this awful cynicism and sarcasm regarding every aspect of it. Alvarez's podcasts are just negativity and poison to anyone's ears, and while Meltzer is definitely still a big fan, he says the stupidest shit just to work up smarks (like the "hold harmless" thing applying to non-kayfabe DB). I don't want anything to do with this side of the IWC.
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I fully agree. The cynicism is just vile and creates a toxic and unpleasant culture that hangs on to rumours and assumptions from 15 years ago while ignoring any and all progress today.
 
Liu Kang Baking A Pie said:
I do!

I think WO's main contribution to wrestling has been this awful cynicism and sarcasm regarding every aspect of it. Alvarez's podcasts are just negativity and poison to anyone's ears, and while Meltzer is definitely still a big fan, he says the stupidest shit just to work up smarks (like the "hold harmless" thing applying to non-kayfabe DB). I don't want anything to do with this side of the IWC; I've loved wrestling since the first time I ever saw it, and I don't know why I'd waste my only short life watching and talking daily about something I didn't fully love when there are billions of hobbies.
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Plenty of people love pro wrestling, they just don't like WWE.
 
Host Samurai said:
Fans do not like being told who to cheer for in 2017.
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You don't see them working you here. :)

I agree Roman is way miscast, but it seems very, very on purpose. Go through his list of feuds and matches in the last couple of years -- he was always booked to be your top heel, because you either already loved or were waiting to love his opponent (except Triple H and Sheamus around 32, because of injuries). You just figured guessing "who's a face and who's a heel" from decades of watching this kabuki would still inform you later in life; instead, it's become part of the work in getting you to really hate this dude. They're playing with your expectations and emotions, because they know you'll keep watching. He's the biggest heel in the company, and they know it.
 
Host Samurai said:
He's booked as a boring face that tries too hard. Forcing feeding him down our throats much worse than Cena. Cena can at least get reactions and has talent. Cena has the ability to put on some awesome matches and is amazing on the mic. I was never a Cena fan, but I can recognize how talented the guy is.

Roman has little talent in comparison and is a ratings killer. He gets nothing but boo's, no mixed reactions like Cena. His matches are not fun and his moves are even more cartoony than Cena (Superman Punch?) . His career is forever ruined because of the Bryan debacle and that CM Punk interview.

Fans do not like being told who to cheer for in 2017. Matters are made worse when the WWE forces its Roman propaganda like the Trump Administration.
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The problem is that the fans who don't like being told who to cheer for, are the fans Vince doesn't have to be scared to lose.
 
Liu Kang Baking A Pie said:
You don't see them working you here. :)

I agree Roman is way miscast, but it seems very, very on purpose. Go through his list of feuds and matches in the last couple of years -- he was always booked to be your top heel, because you either already loved or were waiting to love his opponent. You just figured guessing "who's a face and who's a heel" from decades of watching this kabuki would still inform you later in life; instead, it's become part of the work in getting you to really hate this dude.
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I don't think it's on purpose(this is the first time I've even heard that notion), I think he's just not clicking because of the initial thing with him and Danial Bryan that made him the corporate champion. I'm pretty sure Vince would love him to get cheered every night, that's why he had Rock raise his arm and Bryan shake his hand.

And now everything they try just rubs salt into the wound. Only possible way of rehabilitating him now is to turn him heel, get rid of his scripted interviews and hope he can bring the crowd onside himself eventually then turn him back.
 
Ninja Scooter said:
The problem is that the fans who don't like being told who to cheer for, are the fans Vince doesn't have to be scared to lose.
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Who are the fans that Vince needs to be afraid of losing?

He's clearly losing a lot of some type of fan.
 
Host Samurai said:
Fans do not like being told who to cheer for in 2017. Matters are made worse when the WWE forces its Roman propaganda like the Trump Administration.
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No, a small toxic part of the fanbase who have been convinced by the iNternet that Vince personally hates them and has enough disposable income to buy out tickets for RAWs and PPVs since they only have to buy one ticket hate being told to cheer and have basically turned heel on the company, but refuse to stop watching or giving Vince McMahon money.

So yes I'd ignore them too if I was Vince.
 
Sir_Crocodile said:
I don't think it's on purpose(this is the first time I've even heard that notion), I think he's just not clicking because of the initial thing with him and Danial Bryan that made him the corporate champion. I'm pretty sure Vince would love him to get cheered every night, that's why he had Rock raise his arm and Bryan shake his hand.

And now everything they try just rubs salt into the wound. Only possible way of rehabilitating him now is to turn him heel, get rid of his scripted interviews and hope he can bring the crowd onside himself eventually then turn him back.
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Why turn him heel to get cheered?

I don't like Roman, and I think that's the point: he's just an odious dude on the mic, and he's the furthest from a sympathetic babyface as I've ever seen in the business. However, I'd have to be pretty stubborn not to notice that nearly all of his feuds with "heels" have been with someone I and the IWC were already all about.

Publicly, Cena (and even Owens on the Austin podcast a couple of weeks ago) are thinking the same as me: the wrestling demographic isn't just 18-35 year old dudes anymore, and in the process of expanding globally and to the other demographic quadrants, the biggest stars will be the ones getting fully mixed reactions. Just loud as fuck boos and cheers, because there aren't going to be mega-stars we're all either fully for or against. It's impossible with a global audience. Owens can keep becoming a bigger and bigger dogshit heel, and I'll just love him more for it, but the kids will boo louder than ever. Roman isn't ever going to be a clean face or heel. He's just going to be Roman, and he's going to flummox the IWC for a few more years until this global expansion starts to make sense to us.
 
Liu Kang Baking A Pie said:
Why turn him heel to get cheered?

I don't like Roman, and I think that's the point: he's just an odious dude on the mic, and he's the furthest from a sympathetic babyface as I've ever seen in the business. However, I'd have to be pretty stubborn not to notice that nearly all of his feuds with "heels" have been with someone I and the IWC were already all about.

Publicly, Cena (and even Owens on the Austin podcast a couple of weeks ago) are thinking the same as me: the wrestling demographic isn't just 18-35 year old dudes anymore, and in the process of expanding globally and to the other demographic quadrants, the biggest stars will be the ones getting fully mixed reactions. Just loud as fuck boos and cheers, because there aren't going to be mega-stars we're all either fully for or again. Owens can keep becoming a bigger and bigger dogshit heel, and I'll just love him more for it, but the kids will boo louder than ever. Roman isn't ever going to be a clean face or heel. He's just going to be Roman, and he's going to flummox the IWC for a few more years until this global expansion starts to make sense to us.
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That there biggest fanbase, they would have died if they didn't have them.
And outside of AJ and the part timers there are no stars.
 
I don't really care about Sasha and Charlotte trading the Women's Title back and forth though the supposed reason it happened at Summerslam is because Sasha supposedly had some nagging injuries and might've needed a fair deal of time off IIRC. For the most part though fine, it shows basically one can beat the other at any time and puts them on the same level the timing just had Charlotte winning on PPVs (yeah, still not a fan of Sasha's first win coming from Raw) but Bayley... Bayley absolutely should not have won the title already, I don't know if I would've have had her win it at WrestleMania either and neither should've the PPV streak they unwittingly put Charlotte on ended at a meaningless PPV for *reasons*.

I'd hold off Bayley winning it until Summerslam this year against a heel Sasha again minus the lovey respect stuff from NXT after their matches. At WM Charlotte eats the pin, gets her first PPV loss off a finish that involves Bayley hitting her finish (yeah I know people hate it) followed immediately by Sasha throwing Bayley out and pinning Charlotte giving her her first PPV loss. Of course, Charlotte wants her rematch because that's a thing for some reason, loses at the next PPV and Charlotte gets put on the back burner for a while while in another feud, first with Dana I guess and then maybe Nia Jax to keep her busy. Sasha turns on Bayley in May or June but neither of them have a 1 v 1 match on TV until Summerslam because Sasha shouldn't want to actually face her one on one given the history until forced to and as a heel champion put obstacles in the baby face challenge's way angle, first one after the turn being Emma. I know that's a pain even WWE needing to have title defenses on every PPV though I'd have Sasha give a jobber (or Alicia Fox, same thing) a title shot here in there on Raw to keep up with the 30 day rule that WWE picks and chooses to invoke. Still, Bayley once again beats Sasha at Summerfest but then the draft happens (which I still wish could be held off until after Summerslam) and Sasha gets moved to Smackdown so the feud is forced end, Sasha stays the top heel woman and gets to work with whoever is on Smackdown.


Wish they'd also need to drop the whole "rematch clause" nonsense because it's a ridiculously lazy stipulation used to extend feuds. Get rid of the worn out contract signing angle too, it's never made sense to begin with when you have authority figures making matches on a whim and they've driven it into the ground by doing it what feels like at least once a month for years now.


EDIT: Heels can't be heels anymore in WWE, the art of being a heel died with a combination of social media, scripted promos written by people with zero grasp on psychology along with making referees come off as competent authority figures in matches and various other edicts.
 
JesseEwiak said:
But they're also a lethal poison because they ruin shows unless they get exactly what they want instead of simply stopping watching like normal people do when it comes to a TV program.
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alot of them have stopped watching, look at the ratings. And What show have they ruined?
 
Liu Kang Baking A Pie said:
Why turn him heel to get cheered?

I don't like Roman, and I think that's the point: he's just an odious dude on the mic, and he's the furthest from a sympathetic babyface as I've ever seen in the business. However, I'd have to be pretty stubborn not to notice that nearly all of his feuds with "heels" have been with someone I and the IWC were already all about.
Click to expand...

Faces who have floundered in the past have been able to turn heel, get over by being a badass and then make the transition back to face with more success.

Nothing else has worked so it's worth a try.
 
Heroman said:
alot of them have stopped watching, look at the ratings.
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F4W said women leaving the show were the primary reason for the big drop in hour 3 of Raw this week.

Can you cite something to back this up? Raw is still in the top 10 of original cable shows any week. Is it wrestling, or is it TV that people aren't watching?
 
Liu Kang Baking A Pie said:
F4W said women leaving the show were the primary reason for the big drop in hour 3 of Raw this week.

Can you cite something to back this up? Raw is still in the top 10 of original cable shows any week. Is it wrestling, or is it TV that people aren't watching?
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Dave has said numerous times that the demo has been falling for years.

And WWE, when compared to any other sports shows they have fallen huge.
 
Heroman said:
What am i trying to say that WWE isn't really expanding both gobal and demographic.
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I don't think you're much of a researcher or analyst. Cite your reasons!

You really don't think WWE is expanding globally after the UK Championship was created, or after they hired like a dozen future wrestlers from China? Why do you think they show you the announcers from every country they have on their payroll every PPV? What do you think all of these add up to? Why has John Cena been learning Chinese for a decade? Why is Nigel McGuinness doing NXT? Why did they hire HoHo Lun, the greenest fucker I've seen on NXT, if not for the reason the dude started a promotion in Hong Kong and is extremely valuable to an expansion there?

(My prediction is NXTs and PCs in China, UK, and Australia to start.)
 
For last Monday.
Final-Cable-2017-Mar-20.MON_.png
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Roman was in the main event, women love Roman, some women didn't care about seeing Roman in the main event.


18-49 both men and women dropped the same, the 12-34 female demo dropped the same as the 18-49 while 12-34 males dropped marginally less at .11.
 
Liu Kang Baking A Pie said:
I don't think you're much of a researcher or analyst. Cite your reasons!

You really don't think WWE is expanding globally after the UK Championship was created, or after they hired like a dozen future wrestlers from China? Why do you think they show you the announcers from every country they have on their payroll every PPV? What do you think all of these add up to? Why has John Cena been learning Chinese for a decade? Why is Nigel McGuinness doing NXT? Why did they hire HoHo Lun, the greenest fucker I've seen on NXT, if not for the reason the dude started a promotion in Hong Kong and is extremely valuable to an expansion there?

(My prediction is NXTs and PCs in China, UK, and Australia to start.)
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UK thing is that they trying to kill the scene there, China like almost every entrainment company has been trying to break into the China and to lesser extent Hong Kong but there isn't love for pro wrestling there so I doubt theyll have much success. WWE only has like 1.5/6 million subscribers and most of them are from USA, followed by the UK then the rest of Europe.

Thing about WWE is that no matter how much they tried to expand they make all there money in the USA
 
Hasn't the average age of a WWE viewer steadily gotten older over the last, 5-10 years? That's a pretty obvious indicator that they aren't pulling in new fans and thus the younger demographic is shrinking.
 
Sephzilla said:
Hasn't the average age of a WWE viewer steadily gotten older over the last, 5-10 years? That's a pretty obvious indicator that they aren't pulling in new fans and thus the younger demographic is shrinking.
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It was cool to like wwf/wcw back in 98 when I was in 4th grade. You don't have that now.
 
Heroman said:
UK thing is that they trying to kill the scene there, China like almost every entrainment company has been trying to break into the China and to lesser extent Hong Kong but there isn't love for pro wrestling there so I doubt theyll have much success. WWE only has like 1.5/6 million subscribers and most of them are from USA, followed by the UK then the rest of Europe.

Thing about WWE is that no matter how much they tried to expand they make all there money in the USA
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I'm cracking up at how you don't see the obvious next step for them based on these facts. This is exactly why they're going global.

I think you still see wrestling as a WCW vs WWE type of scorched earth competition. That was nearly two decades ago.
 
Liu Kang Baking A Pie said:
I'm cracking up at how you don't see the obvious next step for them based on these facts. This is exactly why they're going global.

I think you still see wrestling as a WCW vs WWE type of scorched earth competition. That was nearly two decades ago.
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They already Global and still make most on their money in the USA.

Well considering I was a fan during that time I don't see Wrestling that way.
 
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