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[LastGamer84]

It just means that people will be able to use a wider variety of weapons without being at a massive disadvantage. I fucking hated Gally for this reason. It never dropped, it was never sold, and it quarantined a huge population of the game on LFG. Thankfully I had friends willing to grind through content without it, but back when Crota dropped it was difficult to find a team willing to take a man without it.

Weapon variety is not the issue, and I take exception to their supposed stats. As someone who plays almost daily, I see players using a variety of weapons in a variety of content (Strikes, PoE). Yes, Gally was overused, but weapons like Ice Breaker, Last Word, and Hawkmoon were far less common from my experience - even arguing that they made the first two easy to acquire from Xur.

Gally and Thorn getting the nerf bat comes down to two notions: 1 - The PoE content was getting trivialized and 2) PvP was a joke when Thorn was involved. The first one is entirely Bungie's fault, not the players. Making PoE bosses more varied with unique buffs/stats should be the solution, not nerfing a weapon. As far as PVP goes I can't speak on it since I avoid it like the plague. That being said, nerfing a weapon because a pvp imbalance is the kind of bad decision I associate with WoW, not Destiny.

 

[Elginer]

They fucking with my Hawkmoon?! Bastardos!

 

[StrongBlackVine]

Sometimes it's good and sometimes it isn't, you have to find that sweet spot of engaging from longer ranges and having a character that really benefits of the agility boost the weapon gives.
Prepare yourself for lots of suppressive fire.

That sounds good. I only roll a Hunter, I'm looking forward to the new support focused subclass and I prefer fighting from distsnce. And of course Hunters are the most agile.

 

[Dmonzy]

Bungie with that amazing nerf to make the icebreaker useless

;_;

 

[LastGamer84]

Bungie with that amazing nerf to make the icebreaker useless

;_;

So far the increased recharge hasn't affected me that much, but the extra few seconds are annoying. Why they singled it out when everyone swears by Black Hammer these days is still baffling.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Lol at that explanation for the horn nerf.

They are surely going to introduce a new "horn of year 2" type of weapon for everyone to chase that can only be obtained by rare random RNG. And it will certainly cause lots and lots of LFG requirement posts all over the Internet. And lots of angst. Destiny is just that kind of game.

IMO the real reason for the horn nerf is so that people don't say the year 2 OP weapon is "not as good as my horn". Lol.

lol. To avoid power creep Bungie is nerfing everything. I might be done with Destiny for a while.

That's one of my issues...instead of creating new weapons that are horizontally powerful, IE maybe introduce a rocket launcher with 15% splash radius but a magazine size of 50, they are only vertically scaling weapons. And these nerfs, that will come out during the Taken King instead of you know, next week, scream out 'Please try our new weapons over your old ones.'

 

[StrongBlackVine]

So far the increased recharge hasn't affected me that much, but the extra few seconds are annoying. Why they singled it out when everyone swears by Black Hammer these days is still baffling.

This patch hasn't launched from what I'm reading.

 

[E92 M3]

TLW seems the worst of the bunch. The only thing that needed to be addressed was the 111 bug.

Everything else from what I've read seems fine.

Just got to wait and see now.

TLW had its balls cut and Bungie nerfed Black Hammer simply just because they could.

Nothing personal against the sandbox designer, but I don't like the direction he is taking the weapon balance into. Seems like anything that is too fun will quickly get pinched.

Also, they didn't look at enough exotics.

 

[TheAngryMonkey]

I have yet to meet one person who likes the Dragons Breath exotic.

This is fair

 

[hydruxo]

Here's my thoughts on the weapon tuning.

The good:

• Auto Rifles becoming viable again, but not OP like they were before they were nerfed. This was much needed. I'll take getting hit by a stream of bullets in PVP over Thorn anyday of the week.
• Hard Light, Necrochasm, and NLB buffs are great.
• Fusion Rifles getting a slight buff to compete with shotguns. They won't be one hit, cross the map killers like they were, but they'll be viable again.
• Final Round & Shot Package nerfs. People will have to pick their loadouts carefully in PVP now without having to rely on these perks every match.
• Grenades & Horseshoes needed to be brought down a notch. I use it a good amount but there needed to be some balance so that you have to get better at aiming for your opponent rather than just shooting a rocket in their general vicinity.
• Lord of Wolves buff is cool but they need to playtest these perks beforehand far more to make sure that they're exotic worthy before they come out. It's annoying getting these guns and having them be underwhelming until the inevitable weapon tuning months later.

The bad:

• Thorn nerf was welcomed and expected, but it's still going to be used quite a bit. Since the DoT stacks, you can still team kill with it and get quick DoT kills with it. I don't think we're out of the woods with this gun just yet in PVP. Basically, they should've given it more of a nerf than they did.
• Black Hammer and Ice Breaker nerfs were unnecessary. I mean I somewhat get that Bungie doesn't want people sitting in the back with IB and trivializing their encounters quickly, but this was something that didn't really need to be changed. Black Hammer nerf is puzzling to me. White Nail requires precision (outside of certain bosses & spider tanks) and you should be rewarded for however long you can keep getting headshots. I just don't feel that either of these needed to be tuned up, at all.
• Gjallarhorn nerf was that dark cloud looming in the background that you hoped would drift by, but Bungie finally did it. I personally think that if they were going to nerf Ghorn, they should've just done it in October of last year and been done with it. They didn't say a word about it for 10 months, then they suddenly nerf it because they don't want people trivializing their PVE encounters in Year 2. It's sad, but it was to be expected I guess.
• Nerf to the entire class of Hand Cannons is exactly what I was hoping they wouldn't do, but in the back of the mind I knew they'd do it. Thorn, TLW, and occasionally Hawkmoon were the outliers here, and yet Bungie chose to bring down the entire subset of HCs just like what they did with ARs a few months back (though not to the same extent). There was absolutely nothing wrong with legendary hand cannons whatsoever. This nerf makes them far less viable in PVE, especially with the mag reduction. HCs have always been my favorite subclass of weapons so I'm really bummed out about these changes.
• 10% PVE damage and crit damage reduction on shotguns is such a petty change. I guess we'll see how much of a difference it'll make (probably won't even matter), but it just seems like something that didn't need to be changed. It's risk / reward using shotguns in high level content in PVE.

As a whole, it's a pretty good patch but the negatives outweigh the positives for me personally. It's just unfortunate that Bungie feels that they have to nerf PVE focused guns that went virtually untouched for 10 months just so that we can't use them to their full extent in TTK's encounters. Most of the PVP focused changes are solid and I'm glad they limited all the current meta perks (Final Round/Shot Package/G&H). I just hope that TTK has some exotic weapons that are worthy of being called an exotic right out of the gate, because I'm tired of getting crappy exotics from the DLCs and them not becoming useful until months down the line when Bungie finally tunes them.

 

[Kinsella]

So far the increased recharge hasn't affected me that much, but the extra few seconds are annoying. Why they singled it out when everyone swears by Black Hammer these days is still baffling.

They haven't nerfed it yet.

 

[wuth]

Weapon variety is not the issue, and I take exception to their supposed stats. As someone who plays almost daily, I see players using a variety of weapons in a variety of content (Strikes, PoE). Yes, Gally was overused, but weapons like Ice Breaker, Last Word, and Hawkmoon were far less common from my experience - even arguing that they made the first two easy to acquire from Xur.

Gally and Thorn getting the nerf bat comes down to two notions: 1 - The PoE content was getting trivialized and 2) PvP was a joke when Thorn was involved. The first one is entirely Bungie's fault, not the players. Making PoE bosses more varied with unique buffs/stats should be the solution, not nerfing a weapon. As far as PVP goes I can't speak on it since I avoid it like the plague. That being said, nerfing a weapon because a pvp imbalance is the kind of bad decision I associate with WoW, not Destiny.

People are using lots of weapons because they don't have Gally. Ice Breaker is usually shelved until the situation calls for it. Ultimately, however, if we all had Gally that's what we'd use in PVE. However, I agree with you that we need better boss design. This is Destiny's biggest problem by a wide margin.

PVP is really where I find the meat of the problem as far as weapon balancing goes. In PVE, you can get away with using a variety of weapons, but in PVP the cheese is infuriating. It's one thing using Gally or a broken strat to beat the computer, but being defeated by garbage play in PVP is just gross. Thorn was out and out too powerful. Not only was it quick to kill, it would halt your life regen and force you into cover. No other weapon was that good from that range and it was skewing the meta towards super fast kill times that weren't what players had come to expect from PVP.

For the record, I thought the Icebreaker nerf was silly.

 

[Smokey_Run]

They know what they're doing with the Horn. Nerf the current "win button" just to introduce another one with Taken King so people have something to chase for the next year.

 

[TheAngryMonkey]

Sometimes it's good and sometimes it isn't, you have to find that sweet spot of engaging from longer ranges and having a character that really benefits of the agility boost the weapon gives.
Prepare yourself for lots of suppressive fire.

MIDA is my goto in PvP. I've always enjoyed scouts and like how they handle, MIDA brings all of that up 2 notches by being light and quick in handling plus the movement speed increase. Run full agility on whatever class you have plus all of the speed boasts on MIDA and you'll feel like you broke the game.

 

[LastGamer84]

They haven't nerfed it yet.

My bad.

PVP is really where I find the meat of the problem as far as weapon balancing goes. In PVE, you can get away with using a variety of weapons, but in PVP the cheese is infuriating. It's one thing using Gally or a broken strat to beat the computer, but being defeated by garbage play in PVP is just gross. Thorn was out and out too powerful. Not only was it quick to kill, it would halt your life regen and force you into cover. No other weapon was that good from that range and it was skewing the meta towards super fast kill times that weren't what players had come to expect from PVP.

PVP ruining PVE is where I have the most problem with these changes. Why am I being punished for weapon balance in a mode I don't even play? If it's that big of an issue, then make everyone start with a default loadout of weapons and have random drops of heavy/exotics during the match that each player can grab. Problem solved.

For the record, I thought the Icebreaker nerf was silly.

Indeed, a weapon that can't be reloaded relies on its recharge rate.

 

[TsuWave]

If we are really honest with ourselves there are a lot of weapons that make encounters extremely trivial and way too easy to spam. I don't mind feeling like a God but it can becoming mind-numbling boring.

i don't get how ppl finding that the use of some weapons in pve makes the game boring should translate into said weapons getting nerfed. they could also design bosses/encounters were the use of said weapons doesn't guarantee an easy win/design weapons that are appealing for different reasons.

 

[ethomaz]

So far the increased recharge hasn't affected me that much, but the extra few seconds are annoying. Why they singled it out when everyone swears by Black Hammer these days is still baffling.

lol

 

[TsuWave]

I'm excited to see how the playerbase responds to the changes. I really hope auto and pulse rifles are really viable in PvP again.

pulse rifles are incredibly useful in pvp currently, red death in the hands of someone skilled > thorn

the AR's are flabby and sick status tho and needed a buff but pulse rifles are fine

 

[gatti-man]

No one has said this yet to my knowledge: I think the reason bungie is nerfing the horn, ice breaker and black hammer is their new content gets slaughtered by them. The need really makes no sense otherwise. They saw what happened in Poe and how people tear through strikes with black hammer or use the ice breaker in VOG. They are trying to augment the difficulty of their new content imo and not allow players to bypass mechanics with overwhelming dps.

Also how about that hard light! Gets the good old double buff. Can't wait to dust it off.

 

[pantsmith]

They know what they're doing with the Horn. Nerf the current "win button" just to introduce another one with Taken King so people have something to chase for the next year.

Sure, this is the cynical read of it.

But then isn't there something to be said for the horrific task of designing around a weapon with 4x the damage output of the next gun? Gjallarhorn sucks because theres no escaping its influence on everything. I'd rather weapons be situationally useful in different encounters than one that lets you invalidate the mechanics of a fight.

 

[BokehKing]

So far the increased recharge hasn't affected me that much, but the extra few seconds are annoying. Why they singled it out when everyone swears by Black Hammer these days is still baffling.

Damn that placebo effects huh?

Patch ain't even live yet lol

 

[Irnbru]

I just got my Gjallarhorn and now they're tuning it down.

Oh well, surely there will be new exotics in The Taken King that will render even Thorn and the Horn obsolete.

Ahahahahahahahahahahah, the best weapons are still from the original to date

 

[Sword Of Doom]

Nerfing weapons players were using to exploit their cheap, lazy, bullet sponge boss fights. I hope they've actually bothered to create some interesting boss encounters in TTK that don't require those tactics.

Yeah this is the truth


I seriously got tired of bungie as much as I got tired of the game itself. I think only a destiny player will understand what I mean by this

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Sure, this is the cynical read of it.

But then isn't there something to be said for the horrific task of designing around a weapon with 4x the damage output of the next gun? Gjallarhorn sucks because theres no escaping its influence on everything. I'd rather weapons be situationally useful in different encounters than one that lets you invalidate the mechanics of a fight.

Yeah. That or just have weapons that do special things instead of just added damage. Like, Queens Bow is a good start, but it still kinda falls flat compared to other sniper rifles. Suros is just an auto rifle with extremely good stats.

They need to think outside of the box and do new things. Gjallahorn is a good start, but because of this fact it invalidates all other weapons. The other exotic launchers, Truth and Dragons Breath, are extremely weaker in comparison.

Just....they just need to make more unique weapons. Like, look to ratchet and clank for inspiration or something.

 

[LastGamer84]

Damn that placebo effects huh?

Patch ain't even live yet lol

Yeah that was my mistake - panic had already set in.

 

[geordiemp]

Thorn needed to be debuffed badly, you see at least 2 in every crucible match.

And so you should, there are only 3 exotic hand cannons

and ...wait for it...

Exotics > Legendaries.

 

[Jinjo]

You know what really needs a buff...

Spoiler

their goddamn servers

 

[Smokey_Run]

Sure, this is the cynical read of it.

But then isn't there something to be said for the horrific task of designing around a weapon with 4x the damage output of the next gun? Gjallarhorn sucks because theres no escaping its influence on everything. I'd rather weapons be situationally useful in different encounters than one that lets you invalidate the mechanics of a fight.

I'm just saying it's rather convenient it sees a nerf after an entire year. If it was such a problem to design around, it should have been nerfed a long time ago. Instead they embraced the thirst for the weapon and continually trolled the fans about it.

 

[El_Chino]

Thank God! I've been asking for this for months!!

Does this go live when TTK releases or before hand?

 

[NastyBook]

Icebreaker, Blackhammer, and FR nerfs are just the dumbest shit. I don't even have a BH yet, but I bet they'll drop like rain once the patch is in. FR's took a backseat after the Shotty buff, so why even touch them? I can understand the exotics that kill from halfway across the planet, but the rest? lol

Not even gonna say anything about the Gjallarhorn nerf.

 

[gatti-man]

You know what really needs a buff...

Spoiler

their goddamn servers

True.

 

[The1Ski]

I'm not, I'm clearly stating the fact your post history shows you've never played the game.
How can you even comment on weapon tuning? You can't. You've merely tried to thread derail vs my comment about WoW getting re-tunings deserving a thread.

But cool carry on. Also your snipe at the game clearly shows you're not a fan

On what planet does the amount of times that I post about destiny have to do with whether or not I've played the game? Not only have I played the game, but I've posted about it in various destiny threads.

And just because I disagree with the business model being used for destiny doesn't mean I don't like the game.

The only derailing being done is by you when you accused me of flyby shit posting after I responded to a point that you made. It's also not unreasonable to look at the cost and frequency of the expansions as a content orientated subscription plan. BUT that discussion is for a different.

No offense was ever intended but I apologize for offense taken.

 

[Waylon Drums]

That Black Hammer nerf is some real bullshit. Why do I keep playing this shit?

 

[Mindlog]

Gally and Thorn getting the nerf bat comes down to two notions: 1 - The PoE content was getting trivialized

PoE was far from the only content being trivialized by one weapon.
Atheon
Crota
Ta'aurc's health was nerfed, but now a couple Gjallarhorns can kill him before he even gets half-way across the room. There are a quite a few other examples where proper enemy tuning would be undone by Gjallarhorn.

TLW had its balls cut and Bungie nerfed Black Hammer simply just because they could.

Stringing 50+ shots against Sepiks was kind of silly. Now you have to at least look for ammo. Further you can still stagger lock a boss for an extended period of time if your team plans accordingly. It's another change meant to prevent players from totally bypassing mechanics. It's a great change. Black Hammer will finally be a proper legendary instead of S-tier exotic.

That's one of my issues...instead of creating new weapons that are horizontally powerful, IE maybe introduce a rocket launcher with 15% splash radius but a magazine size of 50, they are only vertically scaling weapons. And these nerfs, that will come out during the Taken King instead of you know, next week, scream out 'Please try our new weapons over your old ones.'

When Bungie released TDB and HoW many people complained that VoG weapons were still clearly superior.
If they do the same with Taken King people will be upset.
If they change tack then they will be accused of forcing DLC sales.
There is no winning.

 

[Live Free or Die]

this sucks. they're wrecking every gun basically.

 

[Kinsella]

On what planet does the amount of times that I post about destiny have to do with whether or not I've played the game? Not only have I played the game, but I've posted about it in various destiny threads.

And just because I disagree with the business model being used for destiny doesn't mean I don't like the game.

The only derailing being done is by you when you accused me of flyby shit posting after I responded to a point that you made. It's also not unreasonable to look at the cost and frequency of the expansions as a content orientated subscription plan. BUT that discussion is for a different.

No offense was ever intended but I apologize for offense taken.

You have no reason to apologize to him.

 

[Meffer]

It's good the Horn is getting nerfed. I got scoffed at because I didn't have the Horn while doing PoE 32. And they got so annoyed the fight was taking so long they kicked me out at the last boss with someone who had one, so I didn't get any reward despite going through the whole thing.

 

[benicillin]

They fucking with my Hawkmoon?! Bastardos!

Hawkmoon will still be a great gun, don't worry about it.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Stringing 50+ shots against Sepiks was kind of silly. Now you have to at least look for ammo. Further you can still stagger lock a boss for an extended period of time if your team plans accordingly. It's another change meant to prevent players from totally bypassing mechanics. It's a great change. Black Hammer will finally be a proper legendary instead of S-tier exotic.

Exactly. Oh no, now you can only chain 20+ precision rounds into a boss without descoping. I don't have a Black Hammer, but I'd love to bag one post-nerf. That sounds pretty great.

 

[Deadstar]

Destiny is really frustrating. You never feel powerful fighting the enemies unless they're a ton of levels below you. These PVE nerfs are lame.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Exactly. Oh no, now you can only chain 20+ precision rounds into a boss without descoping. I don't have a Black Hammer, but I'd love to bag one post-nerf. That sounds pretty great.

Spoiler

It's even better prenerf

. That's how broken their weapon design is, that a legendary sniper rifle has something an exotic sniper rifle should have. It rewards precision shots, so it'd be a good contender against Ice breaker. Do you want a sniper rifle that has explosion on headshots and recharging ammo, or a sniper rifle that rewards skill? Why Black Hammer is a legendary is beyond me when it should be more than that.

When Bungie released TDB and HoW many people complained that VoG weapons were still clearly superior.
If they do the same with Taken King people will be upset.
If they change tack then they will be accused of forcing DLC sales.
There is no winning.

The majority of Primary VoG weapons were superior(With Fatebringer heavily tilting the bar towards VoG). I mean, they had the right idea with having perks related to doing extra hive damage, but the exotics that shipped with TDB are....below average. Even the Necrochasm, arguably the harded TDB weapon to get was a flounder(Until the Taken King comes out, but it'll be invalidated by whatever new shiny autorifles they make.

It makes me wonder whether there will be a fatebringer replacement for TTK. If they have someway to upgrade old weapons...boy I can't wait to see another year of Fatebringer.

 

[commish]

Yikes, not a fan of many of these changes. The PvE based nerfs (Icebreaker? Really) are just ridiculous. Bungie can be so damn clueless sometimes. "hey, you guys were having fun doing this thing and liked this thing, so we made it harder for you to do that thing."

The Ballerhorn change is up there with one of the worst changes. They make stupid bulletsponge bosses and then remove basically our best weapon at making these tedious encounters somewhat bearable. I get it - it was super strong, too strong. THEN BUFF THE OTHER HEAVIES. Don't make everything shitty for the sake of parity. Ugh.

Bungie... I mean... come on.

 

[Sword Of Doom]

Exactly. Oh no, now you can only chain 20+ precision rounds into a boss without descoping. I don't have a Black Hammer, but I'd love to bag one post-nerf. That sounds pretty great.

It wasn't all bosses. And nightfalls, which are poorly designed, encourage that kind of behavior. It's either string together shots to kill sepiks or go hide in a room. The issues with the game are deeper than just weapon tuning. The nightfalls are sometimes so ridiculous that you have to exploit them. Bungie should fix that instead

 

[Deku Tree]

Spoiler

It's even better prenerf

. That's how broken their weapon design is, that a legendary sniper rifle has something an exotic sniper rifle should have. It rewards precision shots, so it'd be a good contender against Ice breaker. Do you want a sniper rifle that has explosion on headshots and recharging ammo, or a sniper rifle that rewards skill? Why Black Hammer is a legendary is beyond me when it should be more than that.

Raid legendaries are supposed to be legendaries that are really essentially exotic tier.

FB, VoC, FV, Foil, BHammer, Fang, etc.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Yikes, not a fan of many of these changes. The PvE based nerfs (Icebreaker? Really) are just ridiculous. Bungie can be so damn clueless sometimes. "hey, you guys were having fun doing this thing and liked this thing, so we made it harder for you to do that thing."

That's the thing that strikes me oddest. It's obvious they have the capacity to tune weapons separately between PvP and PvE...so why aren't they doing that? Why nerf Ice Breakers PvE? Why nerf Thorns PvE? Thorn was never a good PvE weapon to begin with(Except with certain bosses that required a shield down, like the Cabal Arena boss), now it'll be even worse. And then a nerf to shotgun PvE, because obviously that's a problem.

It baffles me.

Raid legendaries are supposed to be legendaries that are really essentially exotic tier.

FB, VoC, FV, Foil, BHammer, Fang, etc.

They definitely feel like it, but it creates the problem that if you're min/maxing a build, right now Fatebringer/Black Hammer/Gjallahorn will fulfill any role. So making fatebringer exotic, will make people choose...

 

[Weeaboosuke]

What the fuck? They nerfed Ice Breaker? I would have been completely fine with this update if they had just left that one gun alone.

 

[cakely]

Sigh.

They pretty much nerfed every go-to weapon I use, in PvP and PvE.

(I'm a TLW guy, btw, I got tired of using thorn when there were literally four in every control match)

 

[Caja 117]

I'm just saying it's rather convenient it sees a nerf after an entire year. If it was such a problem to design around, it should have been nerfed a long time ago. Instead they embraced the thirst for the weapon and continually trolled the fans about it.

Bungie ha been historically slow to update things, specially their weapon sandbox (and even reluctant to do so I suffered this trough Halo 3 and Halo reach), they always had a Balancing issue with their weapons, this is not a Destiny thing, . I will just congratulate Bungie for actually listening to their fan base, because at least the Thorn has been a real issue in PvP so that change doesnt have anything to do with Taken King, this update was going to be made regardless, just like the update to nerf the Autos a good while ago.

 

[robertsan21]

when will this Update go online?

 

[Sword Of Doom]

They definitely feel like it, but it creates the problem that if you're min/maxing a build, right now Fatebringer/Black Hammer/Gjallahorn will fulfill any role. So making fatebringer exotic, will make people choose...

How about making more weapons as good as those weapons everyone likes to use instead of turning those special weapons into ordinary weapons?