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[Oxnard Montalvo]

Any idea when the patch will be up for ps4?

 

[More_Badass]

There are balance issues, and it happened far more than it should have. Lack of player agency is a design failing, not a feature. I'm just glad that some acknowledgement has been made regarding this and corrections were made. I'm liking the game but some design choices have just been frustrating, not in a good way.

Sounds like you just might not like the roguelike concept. They're unfair, they're frustrating, but having a bad run and figuring out to adapt and salvage that through skill is part of the fun. Rolling with the punches, making due with your limited resources, and coming out on top (or not) is part of what makes surviving in a roguelike/lite intense and thrilling. As Dwarf Fortress (in)famously states, "Losing is fun".

I do like the idea of starting with a random gun, but too many keys, being able to choose your guns or items, would totally diminish that risk v reward thrill, that sense of the unknown and adapting to what happens good or bad, that makes a roguelike/lite...a roguelike/lite

 

[BShadowJ]

As someone who uses the starting pistol for 90% of the time (basically only switching for bosses or some harder rooms), I don't care for the key drop change. It will definitely help people who are having trouble with the early chambers, but overall it'll be about the same. For good/more experienced players it doesn't make a difference, for worse/newer players... Don't want to be mean, but it only gets tougher from there. You'll probably still die a number of times before figuring things out (as we all did.)

EDIT:

Sounds like you just might not like the roguelike concept. They're unfair, they're frustrating, but having a bad run and figuring out to adapt and salvage that through skill is part of the fun. Rolling with the punches, making due with your limited resources, and coming out on top (or not) is part of what makes surviving in a roguelike/lite intense and thrilling. As Dwarf Fortress (in)famously states, "Losing is fun".

I do like the idea of starting with a random gun, but too many keys, being able to choose your guns or items, would totally diminish that risk v reward thrill, that sense of the unknown and adapting to what happens good or bad, that makes a roguelike/lite...a roguelike/lite

Related to what I bolded in your quote, there is actually a unlockable way to sorta get that...

Spoiler

You can rescue a monarchy-type lady with 2 robots, and then she'll go to the Breach, and if you pay 6 Hmon Dollars, the next run you do, your weapon will randomly switch every couple of seconds.

Tried it, it was fun for a change, but I probably won't do it again, it trivializes the game and makes it less fun than playing standard.

 

[Stoze]

I don't get the whole "breakable don't drop anything" complaint. It's like complaining that the stacks of paper in Max Payne 3 don't drop health when you shoot them. The stuff is there to make the shooting more visually impactful due to the effects your bullets and debris flying around.

The fact that they don't drop anything helps the pacing and gameplay. Imagine if you had to run around breaking everthing in every room on the off chance you might find something in a barrel

I mean I'm pretty sure the vast majority agree with this, I don't think I've seen anyone else say that breakables should drop stuff other than the poster you quoted previously. It would suck.

But yeah, I think it's a surface level criticism brought on by expectations from other games.

 

[hawk2025]

Enough time has passed, so I can say this:

Enter the Gungeon is now my favorite roguelite -- ever.

 

[evilalien]

As someone who uses the starting pistol for 90% of the time (basically only switching for bosses or some harder rooms), I don't care for the key drop change. It will definitely help people who are having trouble with the early chambers, but overall it'll be about the same. For good/more experienced players it doesn't make a difference, for worse/newer players... Don't want to be mean, but it only gets tougher from there. You'll probably still die a number of times before figuring things out (as we all did.)

I barely use the starting gun past the second chamber unless I have crap luck and am forced to do so, and I've already cleared the game with all characters including

Spoiler

their pasts and chamber 6.

I welcome having a couple more keys because it will make a difference in the lower chambers.

 

[spineduke]

By that logic any situation in which you don't have a key lacks player agency, therefore why not have infinite keys? I think you need to consider the reason the key system exists in the first place. It's an odd remark, honestly, since I would not say rogue-lites are built with player agency as their focus, the layered random variables could in fact be argued to emphase the intentional control and restriction of agency.

But, a lack of player agency isn't objectively a design failing. If that were the case, Uncharted and The Last of Us would be among the worst games of our time. It's not uncommon that agency is restricted in order to enhance a games design and gameplay features. You seem pretty closed to that possibility, though.

Again though, I don't think the additional keys are necessarily the wrong choice for the games design, but I do think anyone suggesting that it's objectively 'better' simply isn't considering both sides of the coin.

I don't work in absolutes. Having no keys is not a player choice. Having infinite keys is similarly ridiculous. The point is for a player to engage in the games systems, they must be able to obtain some of the currency in order to make those decisions.

Sounds like you just might not like the roguelike concept. They're unfair, they're frustrating, but having a bad run and figuring out to adapt and salvage that through skill is part of the fun. Rolling with the punches, making due with your limited resources, and coming out on top (or not) is part of what makes surviving in a roguelike/lite intense and thrilling. As Dwarf Fortress (in)famously states, "Losing is fun".

I do like the idea of starting with a random gun, but too many keys, being able to choose your guns or items, would totally diminish that risk v reward thrill, that sense of the unknown and adapting to what happens good or bad, that makes a roguelike/lite...a roguelike/lite

I love roguelikes, but that balance you're taking about works on a very sensitive scale. Like you said, you don't want to rob the player of that risk/reward balance. The important thing is to make the player feel that he made his choices, as opposed to the game making those choices for him.

edit: I don't want to derail the thread anymore, but I am enjoying the game for what it's worth. With this patch, you'll probably see more positive posts from me about the game.

 

[Stoze]

As someone who uses the starting pistol for 90% of the time (basically only switching for bosses or some harder rooms), I don't care for the key drop change. It will definitely help people who are having trouble with the early chambers, but overall it'll be about the same. For good/more experienced players it doesn't make a difference, for worse/newer players... Don't want to be mean, but it only gets tougher from there. You'll probably still die a number of times before figuring things out (as we all did.)

I've mentioned this before, but I think the real problem is that people feel like they're being teased and/or missing out on items & variety because they are being prevented from opening a treasure chest in a video game. Not necessarily the game being too challenging or the fact you don't need to open those chests to beat the game.

I'm indifferent to the change, but I think if it's just a tweak for the early game and people are generally pleased with it then it's probably for the better.

I'm also on PS4 so who knows when I'll see the patch. I'm still over here abusing the junk selling price

 

[Chronospherics]

I feel like this is actually a strength of the game design? I get wanting a favorite gun all the time - but it means each run is different and requires the player to adapt to what they find. Playing through with the same starting loadouts (especially as you get more powerful guns) seems like it would make it play too same'y and take away a lot of the fun/challenge.

I agree with this and feel that that is the inherent nature of these rogue-like type games.

At the same time, I do wonder if the game, and games alike would ever benefit from some sort of mode where more options (like starting weapon) were provided. As an example, i had so much fun playing with speed boost + molotov launcher + void shotgun earlier, but my chances of ever having opportunity to have the same experience again are quite slim.

I fully appreciate that the 'random' factor is inherent to the games design and appeal but I do consider the merits of making more freomedom available for people wanting to replicate particular experiences and test out certain combinations. Perhaps as a sort of cheat character only available once you've done everything else in the game? It does sort of relate back to how in many older games, cheating can be fun in a way that's different to the experience you get from playing the game normally.

I don't work in absolutes. Having no keys is not a player choice. Having infinite keys is similarly ridiculous. The point is for a player to engage in the games systems, they must be able to obtain some of the currency in order to make those decisions.

.

That's my problem though. In many of the runs I have had, I have been able to open every chest and door that I've encountered, providing more keys makes that more possible which leads to more experiences that are 'similarly ridiculous'. Having a key for every door lock lacks risk / reward and in fact, inhibits player agency.

I guess it pushes the game in another direction though, now you have more experiences where you have too many keys, than too few. As you described, both are problematic, but I suppose if I were to want one or the other, then situations with too many keys would be more beneficial to players overall enjoyment.

I think a better solution would be to balance keys out, throughout a run, possibly offering more opportunities to obtain them via risk reward, perhaps guaranteeing unlocking shop doors, guaranteeing their presence in the shops, or providing one key per floor for free.

Still, even pre-patch many of my runs end up opening 90% of the chests in the game. I feel like the balance you describe was already there, but that's just based on my own experiences. I get that you may have had a different experience.

 

[BShadowJ]

I've mentioned this before, but I think the real problem is that people feel like they're being teased and/or missing out on items & variety because they are being prevented from opening a treasure chest in a video game. Not necessarily the game being too challenging or the fact you don't need to open those chests to beat the game.

I'm indifferent to the change, but I think if it's just a tweak for the early game and people are generally pleased with it then it's probably for the better.

I'm also on PS4 so who knows when I'll see the patch. I'm still over here abusing the junk selling price

Hmm yeah I guess you have a point. From my point of view even though missing early chests could be slightly annoying, since I could always get relatively far in a run, I would always get a number of weapons (at the bare minimum from the bosses themselves), so it wasn't a big issue. But I can see how for someone who can't do that consistently, not only it's annoying, but the low key drop rate could force you to not get any weapons, and thus get the feeling you're always stuck with the starter pistol and miss out on the gun variety (not to mention obviously making it harder anyways).

Overall I did (and do) consider this a positive change regardless.

 

[npanciroli]

Decided to grab it. Loved Binding of Isaac and this looks awesome. First run, 26 minutes, 3rd floor boss death. Fairly solid.

 

[super-famicom]

As someone who uses the starting pistol for 90% of the time (basically only switching for bosses or some harder rooms), I don't care for the key drop change. It will definitely help people who are having trouble with the early chambers, but overall it'll be about the same. For good/more experienced players it doesn't make a difference, for worse/newer players... Don't want to be mean, but it only gets tougher from there. You'll probably still die a number of times before figuring things out (as we all did.)

EDIT:


Related to what I bolded in your quote, there is actually a unlockable way to sorta get that...

Spoiler

You can rescue a monarchy-type lady with 2 robots, and then she'll go to the Breach, and if you pay 6 Hmon Dollars, the next run you do, your weapon will randomly switch every couple of seconds.

Tried it, it was fun for a change, but I probably won't do it again, it trivializes the game and makes it less fun than playing standard.

I follow the same strategy as you, so keys weren't a big issue for me. I don't mind more key drops though. I love opening chests.

 

[epmode]

I just unlocked the elevator for the second floor, used it,

Spoiler

dropped down the elevator and found a busted television. Seems useless and I can't figure out what it does after a quick search. Any ideas?

In related news, the randomized currency drop per enemy is garbage, not to mention the way it can fall into pits. In the early game, this leads to a lot of situations where you simply can't afford X item, no matter what you do.

 

[dralla]

Hmm yeah I guess you have a point. From my point of view even though missing early chests could be slightly annoying, since I could always get relatively far in a run, I would always get a number of weapons (at the bare minimum from the bosses themselves), so it wasn't a big issue. But I can see how for someone who can't do that consistently, not only it's annoying, but the low key drop rate could force you to not get any weapons, and thus get the feeling you're always stuck with the starter pistol and miss out on the gun variety (not to mention obviously making it harder anyways).

Overall I did (and do) consider this a positive change regardless.

For me it's not about difficulty, I can consistently get to floor 4 and 5. Unlocking more chests means more build variety and more fun. Using the starting pistol for the majority of the game becomes boring to me.

I'd also love to see some new characters at some point. There are lots of cool items in there, they could make some fun starting characters. A character with 2 starting health but increased speed would be cool.

I'm thinking they should switch that one character's lockpick for something else and keep keys relatively plentiful.

It's a difficult balance. If keys drop too often they become trivial and part of the meta game is lost. The patch notes sound good on paper, only increasing in frequency in the early floors. Can't wait to try it out

 

[epmode]

I'm thinking they should switch that one character's lockpick for something else and keep keys relatively plentiful. If the lockpick stays, it can influence the developers to balance the game so that it's a worthwhile perk which will negatively affect the other characters.

 

[rje]

I agree with this and feel that that is the inherent nature of these rogue-like type games.

At the same time, I do wonder if the game, and games alike would ever benefit from some sort of mode where more options (like starting weapon) were provided. As an example, i had so much fun playing with speed boost + molotov launcher + void shotgun earlier, but my chances of ever having opportunity to have the same experience again are quite slim.

An option like this could be fun - I'm also a fan of letting players see/enter a specific random seed so they can replay a particularly fun level set that they had. Although I'm wondering if seed sharing would have a detrimental effect on how secrets work in the game.

Game design is hard

 

[Noray]

I've done a bunch of runs and haven't noticed too much difference in the key economy. Shops seem to have them a little more frequently, if I had to guess. Which is how it should be. The game should never not have at least 1 key on the first floor imo.

 

[super-famicom]

I just unlocked the elevator for the second floor, used it,

Spoiler

dropped down the elevator and found a busted television. Seems useless and I can't figure out what it does after a quick search. Any ideas?

In related news, the randomized currency drop per enemy is garbage, not to mention the way it can fall into pits. In the early game, this leads to a lot of situations where you simply can't afford X item, no matter what you do.

Spoiler

You ended up on top of the elevator. Later on you'll find a character in the dungeon. He can unlock shortcuts but needs items to fix the elevator to do so.

 

[epmode]

Spoiler

You ended up on top of the elevator. Later on you'll find a character in the dungeon. He can unlock shortcuts but needs items to fix the elevator to do so.

Spoiler

I suppose I wasn't clear. I actually unlocked the shortcut for the second floor. I was wondering what the busted television actually does. Your character drops it when he rolls. ..which led to me having to leave it outside a rolling puzzle room, and the stupid rat stole it before I could teleport back for it.

 

[More_Badass]

I just remembered Teleglitch. People don't like it as much as a roguelite shooter? I honestly think it's the most intense game in the subgenre

 

[super-famicom]

Spoiler

I suppose I wasn't clear. I actually unlocked the shortcut for the second floor. I was wondering what the busted television actually does. Your character drops it when he rolls. ..which led to me having to leave it outside a rolling puzzle room, and the stupid rat stole it before I could teleport back for it.

Oh, ok. I haven't seen what you are talking about then.

 

[evilalien]

Spoiler

I suppose I wasn't clear. I actually unlocked the shortcut for the second floor. I was wondering what the busted television actually does. Your character drops it when he rolls. ..which led to me having to leave it outside a rolling puzzle room, and the stupid rat stole it before I could teleport back for it.

Spoiler

Bring it to the blacksmith in chamber 5 for a surprise.

 

[Stoze]

I just remembered Teleglitch. People don't like it as much as a roguelite shooter? I honestly think it's the most intense game in the subgenre

I still have that on my Steam library untouched, I don't think many people on here played it. It looked really cool though.

Someday I'll get around to my roguelite backlog...

 

[epmode]

Spoiler

Bring it to the blacksmith in chamber 5 for a surprise.

Spoiler

I would have tried but the level generation can apparently make this impossible. There was no literally way for me to avoid the rat grabbing it.

 

[Chronospherics]

I just remembered Teleglitch. People don't like it as much as a roguelite shooter? I honestly think it's the most intense game in the subgenre

Being honest, I thought it looked super ugly so dismissed it.I feel that I'd get bored of the visual presentation very quickly and the game didn't look like it offered anything that remarkable in gameplay videos I had seen.

 

[Finalow]

this really looks like NT, but better? I enjoyed&liked NT overall but the main issue was the lack of variety, hence why it got boring for me after barely 25-30 hours. [my other complaint would be the loop system past a certain point just transforming every level in a room filled with monsters spawning on each pixel]
this seems to somehow add some BoI elements to the mix so it should be better on that front. if it is, I'm in.

 

[Stoze]

I would have but the level generation can apparently make this impossible. There was no literally way for me to avoid the rat grabbing it.

You can toss it across gaps by using it as an active object if that would've helped.

Funny story, I successfully carried that to the floor 4 boss which was Wallmonger, who proceeded to glitch it out of existence when he died

 

[evilalien]

Spoiler

I would have tried but the level generation can apparently make this impossible. There was no literally way for me to avoid the rat grabbing it.

Yeah some rooms are incredibly painful with it. You can throw it around at least so you should never be leaving it another room, but yes you're going to need some luck because trap rooms will be hell.

 

[Chronospherics]

this really looks like NT, but better? I enjoyed&liked NT overall but the main issue was the lack of variety, hence why it got boring for me after barely 25-30 hours. [my other complaint would be the loop system past a certain point just transforming every level in a room filled with monsters spawning on each pixel]
this seems to somehow add some BoI elements to the mix so it should be better on that front. if it is, I'm in.

Based on your post I think you'd like it, yeah. It takes a lot of inspiration from games like Issac and NT, and I think the end result is something better than either of them.

 

[Out_Of_Ammo]

Spoiler

I would have tried but the level generation can apparently make this impossible. There was no literally way for me to avoid the rat grabbing it.

Spoiler

Yeah it's hard. Also don't roll over pits while carrying it or it drops down and is lost. Found that out the hard way. The reward is worth it though if you manage to do it. I'll personally wait with that quest untill I can consistently get to chamber 5 first, it's not worth the hassle for now

 

[IMACOMPUTA]

Sorry if this has been asked, but is there any reason to avoid the ps4 and go PC on this?

 

[dralla]

Sorry if this has been asked, but is there any reason to avoid the ps4 and go PC on this?

There are some frame drops on the PS4, on certain bosses. The PC version gets patched much quicker too. And the load times seem much quicker on PC (although not bad on PS4)

 

[Kid Ska]

Just fought (Chamber 4 Boss)

Spoiler

The Wallmonger

for the first time.

Sheeeiiittt

 

[AcridMeat]

Picked this up yesterday and have 5 hours already. I love it!

The animation, artstyle, and music are awesome, and the references with the guns are sweet.

Only complaint is I don't get much currency in the first level so if I'm lucky I can buy one item from the shop.

Sucks seeing a ghostbusters proton pack in the first level for 65 when you're sitting on 20 something. :/

Also got the

Spoiler

Beholster

for the first time in level 2 and holy shit they kicked my ass.

 

[Spirit of Jazz]

Just choked hard on the last stage of the 5th floor boss.

 

[Salty Catfish]

Just fought (Chamber 4 Boss)

Spoiler

The Wallmonger

for the first time.

Sheeeiiittt

lol same, that first volley made me think "wow, that's an easy dodge" so I rolled through it...and it immediately reverses direction and hits. He's a tricky bastard.

 

[More_Badass]

I still have that on my Steam library untouched, I don't think many people on here played it. It looked really cool though.

Someday I'll get around to my roguelite backlog...

Being honest, I thought it looked super ugly so dismissed it.I feel that I'd get bored of the visual presentation very quickly and the game didn't look like it offered anything that remarkable in gameplay videos I had seen.

Huh. I'd definitely recommend checking it out when you get a chance. Resource management is crucial, every bullet counts, and the weapons just feel powerful; there's this cool glitchy distortion effect that makes it feel as if your shots are tearing through reality itself. It's a more cautious "barely survive against overwhelming odds" kind of shooter than Gungeon, Isaac, and Throne

 

[AcridMeat]

That bullet effect looks awesome, but the line of sight camera would fuck with my head too much.

 

[Purkake4]

Huh. I'd definitely recommend checking it out when you get a chance. Resource management is crucial, every bullet counts, and the weapons just feel powerful; there's this cool glitchy distortion effect that makes it feel as your shots are tearing through reality itself. It's a more cautious "barely survive against overwhelming odds" kind of shooter than Gungeon, Isaac, and Throne

Can second this. Every fight is a desperate struggle for survival.

 

[Chronospherics]

There are some frame drops on the PS4, on certain bosses. The PC version gets patched much quicker too. And the load times seem much quicker on PC (although not bad on PS4)

Depends on your PC though, right? I mean saying things like it loads faster is obvious, if you have hardware that allows it to. It wouldn't load faster on my laptop, that's for sure.

 

[atomsk]

have spent about 5 hours thus far, my runs are getting longer and longer, best I've done is the 4th Chamber boss.

this is really scratching that Spelunky itch where I can feel myself getting better, though I don't know if I'll put hundreds of hours in, I don't have that kind of time anymore.

fav passive so far is

Spoiler

Flip Showmanship - stuns enemies whenever a table is flipped

 

[Footos22]

Cog of war for active reload is amazing lol
Flipping tables for blank effect is just overpowered as well.

Still found barretts arm and used it against the wall boss. That was fun with space turtle sidekick.

 

[More_Badass]

Cog of war for active reload is amazing lol
Flipping tables for blank effect is just overpowered as well.

Still found barretts arm and used it against the wall boss. That was fun with space turtle sidekick.

Had a passive that doubled your gun output when you flipped a table. Now that was crazy

 

[Footos22]

Had a passive that doubled your gun output when you flipped a table. Now that was crazy

Yeah I had that combined with going rage mode at same time that was insane I still got owned. 5th floor will forever haunt me.

 

[Purkake4]

Had a passive that doubled your gun output when you flipped a table. Now that was crazy

Permanent tripling is better bruh. Try that with the proton backpack.

 

[Out_Of_Ammo]

Cog of war for active reload is amazing lol
Flipping tables for blank effect is just overpowered as well.

Still found barretts arm and used it against the wall boss. That was fun with space turtle sidekick.

How does that work? I got it before but I couldn't figure out what it does. There seemed to be a bar on my reload meter but that's it.

 

[Footos22]

How does that work? I got it before but I couldn't figure out what it does. There seemed to be a bar on my reload meter but that's it.

Like Gears of War. Reload as it hits the line and you get increased power for that clip plus a quicker reload.

 

[Pestilence11]

Permanent tripling is better bruh. Try that with the proton backpack.

The proton backpack melts bosses stock even. It's the only boss killer weapon I've got in over 30 runs.

With news of a patch I'm feeling pressured to beat it before it comes out.

 

[Footos22]

Holy shit the bfg clone is insane. Wipes out a whole room in one charge. still ended up dying on the boss of 3 though.

 

[Out_Of_Ammo]

Like Gears of War. Reload as it hits the line and you get increased power for that clip plus a quicker reload.

Ah nice, thanks! Never played GoW.