Out_Of_Ammo
Member
Yeah Gorgun and Bullet twins are probably the easiest bosses. That tank though holy shit. Only time I managed to beat that thing was when I had the fightsaber, and even then I lost 3 of my 6 hearts...
Enter The Gungeon |OT| Praise the gun
- Thread starter More_Badass
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Spirit of Jazz
Banned
The dice shrine just cut my max ammo capacity in half. Never again. That was after I used spice and it utterly tanked my run because 50% of my drops on floors 4 and 5 became spice. Only use it if you're on the last floor.
The Tank goes from very difficult to somewhat easy if you have even a single movement speed pickup.
I'd personally rank Gatling Gull and Blobulord as easier than the Bullet Twins, but they are also fairly easy. Gorgun is definitely the easiest boss though.
Spirit of Jazz
Banned
I actually think there's an element of randomness to his chaingun spray that makes the Gull the hardest of the level one bosses. I'd put Gorgun and Blob together as being the easiest bosses in the game.
Diprosalic
Banned
does this have 0 progression from one run to another?
Out_Of_Ammo
Member
Oh yeah forgot about Blobulord. That one's very easy as well. The gull can be hit and miss with me depending on what stage I get, but indeed he's still not hard. Tbh none of the level 1 bosses give me trouble at this stage. The level 3 bosses are where things get tricky.
No, you can rescue people in the Gungeon that show up in the hub world or gungeon in later runs. You also get a special currency from beating bosses and certain sidequests that you can use to unlock new weapons and items for the pool. There are also several sidequests that you can complete little by little over multiple runs, and several secrets. However, you do always start each run with basic health and equipment.
Nah, any breakables environment items like that (other than chests) don't seem to ever drop anything (which is a wasted opportunity IMO). You do however get keys, hearts, and ammo for clearing rooms sometimes, so that's what happened there.
Out_Of_Ammo
Member
No, but pots can rarely contain fairies that look like those from Zelda
( and that shoot at you for destroying their home 
)
)
The Gull boss is SOOOO dependent on the room you get him in. If there is no cover.... Jesus it gets really hard when he's chasing you and sweeping the gun back and forth spraying everywhere. If it's the library room with tons of square bookshelves in it though.... forget it. So easy.
It wouldn't surprise me despite all the staunch defenders saying that the balance was fine. Not the first time a game launched that wasn't play tested enough.
Assuming you've gotten the pieces from Chambers 2 through 4, then yes, you get the last piece from shooting Dragun's skull after you beat him. "Carved from the tooth of a great dragon" 
so where's the golem's arm anyway?
also im doing the helmet guy quest (i assume its a quest) and he's getting so pissed off, its hilarious
edit: also how do you steal things? theres a achivement to steal 10 things?
also im doing the helmet guy quest (i assume its a quest) and he's getting so pissed off, its hilarious
edit: also how do you steal things? theres a achivement to steal 10 things?
Salty Catfish
Member
They definitely were: latest patch notes mention "Small adjustment to early game key balance" so I'm guessing their frequency got a minor increase.
Fuck that, it'd force you to tediously clear garbage every room, and there's a lot of it since it acts as cover and limits your movement options - i.e. makes fights more dynamic. Breakables not dropping anything was clearly a conscious decision, and it's for the better.
can someone give me a quick crash course on going deep in this game?
ive played for a couple hours only, and ive gotten to level 4
how many levels are there total?
is there really no way to advance deeper in the game at the start, or you always start at level 1?
is there a general strategy i should be employing? (not in the moment to moment sense, i feel like im already getting pretty good at that - just like, itemization or character or whatever, things i may not be aware of)
im assuming you open up all the boarded doors in this starting area.
ive played for a couple hours only, and ive gotten to level 4
how many levels are there total?
is there really no way to advance deeper in the game at the start, or you always start at level 1?
is there a general strategy i should be employing? (not in the moment to moment sense, i feel like im already getting pretty good at that - just like, itemization or character or whatever, things i may not be aware of)
im assuming you open up all the boarded doors in this starting area.
Diprosalic
Banned
thanks. i give this a pass then, i would love if it would be like Rogue Legacy where you progress further and further.
We need that new patch on PS4 D:
Patch 1.0.3 (April 9th)
=====================================
Small adjustment to early game key balance
Added a DirectX dependency that may solve black screen issues for some players
Added D3D11 support to address pink screen and map issues for some players
Fixed a rare freeze while generating dungeons
Meta currency and NPC cell keys will now be auto collected when the player leaves the room
Fixed an issue where players could respawn inside walls after falling into a pit
Added safety checks to prevent players from dying to poison and fire just after boss death scenes
Fixed another issue where players could get stuck in elevators
Tiger projectiles will no longer break boss death scenes
Fixed a bug which could cause the Singularity to loop audio forever
Flying no longer prevents the player from entering the first secret floor
Fixed an issue where the Wallmonger would get stuck on the dying Cop
Shield of the Maiden now correctly stops the Beholster's beam
Fixed an issue where Snitch Bricks would reveal secret rooms which could not be opened with blanks
Limited the maximum aim assist value
Further reduces memory usage in the main menu
Fixed an issue where some Mac users had a different save location than intended
Patch 1.0.3 (April 9th)
=====================================
Small adjustment to early game key balance
Added a DirectX dependency that may solve black screen issues for some players
Added D3D11 support to address pink screen and map issues for some players
Fixed a rare freeze while generating dungeons
Meta currency and NPC cell keys will now be auto collected when the player leaves the room
Fixed an issue where players could respawn inside walls after falling into a pit
Added safety checks to prevent players from dying to poison and fire just after boss death scenes
Fixed another issue where players could get stuck in elevators
Tiger projectiles will no longer break boss death scenes
Fixed a bug which could cause the Singularity to loop audio forever
Flying no longer prevents the player from entering the first secret floor
Fixed an issue where the Wallmonger would get stuck on the dying Cop
Shield of the Maiden now correctly stops the Beholster's beam
Fixed an issue where Snitch Bricks would reveal secret rooms which could not be opened with blanks
Limited the maximum aim assist value
Further reduces memory usage in the main menu
Fixed an issue where some Mac users had a different save location than intended
More_Badass
Member
It was specifically done to keep the player moving and not need to think about breaking everthing in a room once you clear it, because that would pad out the pacing. Everthing is designed to keep the pacing fast and breezy, from not needing to break things, not needing to manually collect coins, and not needing to backtrack much
Chronospherics
Member
I hardly think that having too few keys means the game 'wasn't play tested enough'. It's not as if having less keys made the game mechanically worse, just different, harder, with more early game risk-reward.
If people didn't like that that's fine but I don't feel like it's objectively better or worse either way, and ultimately it just comes down to wanting an easier game. It's not like end-game runs weren't finishing the game with 10+ guns and countless passives. So anyone who found themselves permanently starved of items was doing something rather odd.
You're probably in a similar position I was in when I first started as I made it to floor 4 on my first few runs too, but then it took me some 10 more to actually beat the game.
In regards to items, you really just pick up whatever you can, though doing things like prioritising keys (black chests are best, brown is worst) and chests can help. Completing the cell quests (unlocking people from the cells) also helps, as they feature as vendors and other event distributors in the dungeons, often giving opportunity for an extra gun, hearts or keys.
When I first played I didn't know what any of the statues did, so learning about all of those and what you can sacrifice for extra rewards is very helpful too. Using the meta currency to buy as many passives as you can is a good idea. Many of them like larger bullets, extra damage, etc. have a huge impact on the efficacy of your weapons so getting those into the dungeon as possible drops is really helpful.
In terms of using your guns I personally found that I would try to find one 'boss weapon', then I would use that weapon to kill all bosses, picking up ammo for it as a priority, then I would use the rest of my weapon pickups as if they were dispensable.
+ Online
Spirit of Jazz
Banned
It's almost as though the 10+ guns/countless passives contributed to the fact people were finishing the game? Like key drops are super important because they're the main thing that determine that you'll get a powerful item combo?
The key drop rate sucks because it doesn't feel like risk/reward at all, just you're going to have a harder time if keys don't drop. If you get 1 key on a floor you'll open the highest tiered chest, if you get 2 you can get both, 3+ and you might actually be able to unlock locks on doors. There's not much strategy behind it.
I just honestly think the game would be much better if it didn't have keys at all. Just feature a tougher difficulty mode for the "hardcore".
Out_Of_Ammo
Member
I can confirm the key droprates improved. Played 4 runs earlier and each time I got 3-4 keys either before or during chamber 2.
Chronospherics
Member
The environments in it are different though, it seems like most maps are outside. Here's the work in progress tileset for the games forest environment (from their twitter)
When I played a demo for it I played a desert level which kind of reminded of nuclear thrones first stage, though it was prettier.
I think the maps are more open than Gungeon, more like NT where they are not necessarily connected through a structure of rooms, but rather a randomly generated, open space. I'm also not sure how the rogue-lite elements feature beyond procedural map generation. I only got to try a few weapons when I tried it and they were a pretty standard affair.
I would be interested in finding out more though, for sure.
Funnily enough the 10+ guns and countless passive weren't earned with 'early game keys', so enhancing the 'early game key droprate' which has been what people have been complaining about, isn't especially likely to determine success. Though it may help some players struggling with the earlier floors.
Not to mention that you can clear every room and boss, with the starting weapons. Whether or not I get multiple keys on the first floor was never a factor on whether my run was successful. If you're playing this game only to win when you get a 'super powerful item combo' then you're going to have a bad time. The game isn't designed like Issac, it's not designed with absurd universal modifiers that take even the basic weapon to insane heights. You have to actually learn to play the game, and once you do, the weapons you have begin to matter far less.
If keys and random weapon / passive distributions were such an influential factor, why was I able to clear my last 3 runs successfully? They weren't all 'lucky runs with multiple keys that lead to a 'super powerful item combo', I can assure you.
Also I described it as more risk vs reward because you have to make decisions on what to open, and those decisions have more risk tied to them. It's not just whether you open certain chests, but certain doors etc are also a factor. For instance choosing to open a door to the target game rather than opening a green chest, that's a big risk-reward decision that often features on floor one, yet is reduced by having more keys. Further, with more keys you have more weapons which makes decisions on when to spend ammunition less significant. I'm not saying less keys was objectively better, but I don't think it was objectively worse either. It was a design choice with various ups and downs.
Either way I think anyone placing responsibility for their runs failure on the lack of early game keys is missing the point, and indeed those players emphasizing those eternal rather than internal determinants of their success (as in, emphasizing how RNG failed them rather than their ability) are going to have a much worse time with the game, than players who are happy to just play the game with whatever it spits out.
I don't want to take a bunch of space in the Gungeon thread to talk about Monsters & Monocles - but if anyone wants more details about it feel free to PM me. There's surface similarities that you get across all dual stick shooters, but in practice the games play quite a bit differently.
Back to Gungeon- What the heck do I do with the altar? I keep coming across it but it always says "do nothing" when I approach it.
Back to Gungeon- What the heck do I do with the altar? I keep coming across it but it always says "do nothing" when I approach it.
Spirit of Jazz
Banned
well, if the devs thought the same, they wouldn't have addressed it in a patch. Case closed.
Chronospherics
Member
That's a very simplistic outlook and I don't see the harm in debating the benefits and disadvantages of design decisions. Why would that bother you? I wasn't saying they should change it back either way.
Developers change their games design for many reasons, but accessibility and matching the communities expectations are often among those factors and it's not realistically possible to dissociate those incentives from what the developer originally wanted from the game. Ultimately if people complain about a relatively small gripe, a developer will often compromise it's design for what the community want, but I don't feel that always means that the decision is what they originally wanted for the title, moreover it doesn't mean that the alternative decision didn't bear its own set of merits.
Ultimately I didn't say I had a problem with them patching in early game keys, what I was saying, is that I wasn't having an issue with early game keys and I feel that for many people who are complaining, patching early game keys isn't going to make much of a difference.
I remember reading a page or two back where a guy was complaining about not getting enough weapons on the first floor, making his runs super difficult. At the end of the day I think people place too much emphasis on a run being 'hard' because they don't have certain items, whereas in reality, that doesn't underpin why they're taking damage, and therefore doesn't underpin why some players might be failing their runs repeatedly.
Salty Catfish
Member
Holy hell is the Composite Gun a beast. Took out the Tank and Kill Pillars (especially useful vs. them since it has piercing) with ease.
There are balance issues, and it happened far more than it should have. Lack of player agency is a design failing, not a feature. I'm just glad that some acknowledgement has been made regarding this and corrections were made. I'm liking the game but some design choices have just been frustrating, not in a good way.
I'm still on the fence about this game but I think I would have liked it better if you could pick the starting gun when doing a new run in order to make the guns you found/bought so far more useful. For them to only show up as random drops or treasures after you purchased them (if I got that correctly) seems like it might lead to you rarely seeing certain guns, let alone becoming attached to favorites. The same goes for passive things like life or abilities not carrying over, which if true, might bum me out as well.
These design decisions together with the breakables that don't yield anything (as discussed by others) and the fact that bosses seem to play such a big part (meaning that one could blaze through levels by being careful but still lose all life by being impatient and sloppy when having to beat the same bosses again and again) are what currently keeping me from jumping in (those and the fact that Dark Souls 3 is finally nearly descending upon me FROM heaven).
I do love the look and general gameplay of the game though, maybe a bit better even than Nuclear Throne's (which I also have not played yet really because I fear it will become free on PSN right after I purchase it...)
More_Badass
Member
I don't get the whole "breakable don't drop anything" complaint. It's like complaining that the stacks of paper in Max Payne 3 don't drop health when you shoot them. The stuff is there to make the shooting more visually impactful due to the effects your bullets and debris flying around.
The fact that they don't drop anything helps the pacing and gameplay. Imagine if you had to run around breaking everthing in every room on the off chance you might find something in a barrel
The fact that they don't drop anything helps the pacing and gameplay. Imagine if you had to run around breaking everthing in every room on the off chance you might find something in a barrel
I feel like this is actually a strength of the game design? I get wanting a favorite gun all the time - but it means each run is different and requires the player to adapt to what they find. Playing through with the same starting loadouts (especially as you get more powerful guns) seems like it would make it play too same'y and take away a lot of the fun/challenge.
Chronospherics
Member
By that logic any situation in which you don't have a key lacks player agency, therefore why not have infinite keys? I think you need to consider the reason the key system exists in the first place. It's an odd remark, honestly, since I would not say rogue-lites are built with player agency as their focus, the layered random variables could in fact be argued to emphase the intentional control and restriction of agency.
But, a lack of player agency isn't objectively a design failing. If that were the case, Uncharted and The Last of Us would be among the worst games of our time. It's not uncommon that agency is restricted in order to enhance a games design and gameplay features. You seem pretty closed to that possibility, though.
Again though, I don't think the additional keys are necessarily the wrong choice for the games design, but I do think anyone suggesting that it's objectively 'better' simply isn't considering both sides of the coin.
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