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Otnopolit said:
I agree, it's disheartening for me too because I started playing a month ago, already put a lot of money in (that I don't regret), and to go on the official sub reddit to everybody just being so down on all of it makes me feel as though this new thing I really enjoy is eroding because the community might jump ship..
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You must be just reading what you want to read there I guess---

It's human nature if you're unhappy with the game you will seek out the rare reddit threads to validate your opinion. Since I enjoy it I only see lots of positive threads at reddit
My friend and I was just watching that vid by Toast where he's doing crazy stuff with Karazhan cards (posted in reddit thread)
 
fertygo said:
All of this negativity is really demoralizing, man I wish I into this game early.. in this state its feel playing game where the community not smiling anymore. That actually what can made me reduce my time around it despite I actually still enjoy the game, despite get rolled by RNG and aggro deck that everyone complain about, because I don't know better I'm not playing when game's better but, the negativity at the scene and streamer is what actually the most stressful thing to me.

Might as well do other thing that everyone around it not so down and break your own mood.
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I wouldn't let it get to you. I think things will improve if they get too bad. I think people are over-exaggerating, that's just the nature of social media though. And tbh people have always been bitching, this isn't really something that changes in hearthstone I learned over the past 3 years.
 
patchday said:
You must be just reading what you want to read there I guess---

It's human nature if you're unhappy with the game you will seek out the rare reddit threads to validate your opinion. Since I enjoy it I only see lots of positive threads at reddit
My friend and I was just watching that vid by Toast where he's doing crazy stuff with Karazhan cards (posted in reddit thread)
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There have been several highly upvoted posts and comments that negatively comment on the state of RNG, how Blizzard doesn't care about card balance, and ETC. I'm not saying critique is bad, critique is good. But it does get to me when it's overwhelmingly negative and cynical, and it's not how developers will want to listen to feedback even if it's warranted.
 
Otnopolit said:
There have been several highly upvoted posts and comments that negatively comment on the state of RNG, how Blizzard doesn't care about card balance, and ETC. I'm not saying critique is bad, critique is good. But it does get to me when it's overwhelmingly negative and cynical, and it's not how developers will want to listen to feedback even if it's warranted.
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It's just the flavor of the month in terms of what to complain about in hearthstone. I'm not saying they don't have a point but there will always be something.
 
I think the "oh, so much negativity" people are as hyperbolic as the people who call the devs lazy (which is something I hate personally) or saying it's just a money grab. You'd think they are about to cry and bawl their eyes out because someone doesn't enjoy stuff as much as them. If you like it you like it. Blizzard games are massive, and they benefit from a large casual audience so they are never going to die out, so why do you worry about that?

I certainly don't think the game is a money grab either. I actually like that I've been playing since the first few closed betas and have seen a game with a very fair model all throughout.

The game has had its ups and downs, but it also has been a consistent thing for Blizzard to be very slow with iteration and on many occasions even refusing to admit there are problems. Then they are aggressive with the butchering and while sometimes it makes sense, other times it doesn't. They ask for patience because they claim their decisions will be justified down the road, but it has been the case that they aren't.

But of course everyone (including me) has some sort of selective vision. There's just too much input from many places to claim a clear majority holds a certain opinion. Heck, even when I think they have done a poor job at balancing Arena my impression is that it isn't even that much of a problem except for some vocal contingents. And that is even more frustrating when you expect a change, because you think there isn't enough of a movement behind an audience to push Blizzard in the right direction, and not much rush in Blizzard's part or initiative to throw a bone back at players. (Purify situation excluded).
 
Apparently Chanman held a tournament back in the Tinkmaster/Leeroy era where he wanted to ban out specific cards (those two in particular) but Blizzard told him he couldn't do it. Blizzard is very, very anti ban cards in tournaments and would probably pull support if they caught wind of TOs banning out cards. They also then changed the cards after that.

It's a really terrible situation to be in. You can't hold tournaments with banned cards while also having support from Blizzard.
 
I think a bit of hyperbole is necessary because otherwise Blizzard wouldn't take notice so I like how community personalities are going in. It's how Blizzard has made things to work, not responding until people are rioting pretty much. You need to lit a fire under ass to get any kind of response.

They are certainly to change something at this stage, the game might get even better next year but there will always be some problems. Like I'm sure a lot of same people, probably myself included, like Frodan says, complained last year how every tournament is handlock/patron/druid and how that's boring (well it was boring but the format was most of the issue, less so the decks themselves, they improved the format because of conquest complaints and we got a ban system).

With that said, I think the game is clearly past its prime and its best moments has happened. It's like with WoW after Wrath now. You've seen a lot of cool shit but whatever is happening doesn't have that impact anymore and some people just leave and they should if they don't care anymore. Newer content might actually be better even but they can't keep topping what came before. Like first time when I saw Ragnaros or Jaraxxus for example, it was really cool. It gets harder and harder to make those moments again. I think one reason a card like Yogg exists is that they felt the need to create excitement again and it went wrong.

Frodan also said there are FOUR guys responsible for balance, it's just not enough. They lack man power for a game this big, like how things even function...
 
Dahbomb said:
Apparently Chanman held a tournament back in the Tinkmaster/Leeroy era where he wanted to ban out specific cards (those two in particular) but Blizzard told him he couldn't do it. Blizzard is very, very anti ban cards in tournaments and would probably pull support if they caught wind of TOs banning out cards. They also then changed the cards after that.

It's a really terrible situation to be in. You can't hold tournaments with banned cards while also having support from Blizzard.
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This position makes 0 sense. Let people hold tournaments with whatever crazy formats they want! They don't have to give HCT ranking points or whatever. I'm sure you won't get all the pros to show up since there is no value for them, so why not let people experiment? I don't get it.
 
QFNS said:
This position makes 0 sense. Let people hold tournaments with whatever crazy formats they want! They don't have to give HCT ranking points or whatever. I'm sure you won't get all the pros to show up since there is no value for them, so why not let people experiment? I don't get it.
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If it's like a legit Hearthstone tournament then Blizzard does not want cards to be banned.

I feel like the whole point of the digital card game is that we don't need to ban cards because cards that are too good should in theory be changed. But people get fed up by Blizzard's slow responses and try to take matters in their own hands.
 
Dahbomb said:
Apparently Chanman held a tournament back in the Tinkmaster/Leeroy era where he wanted to ban out specific cards (those two in particular) but Blizzard told him he couldn't do it. Blizzard is very, very anti ban cards in tournaments and would probably pull support if they caught wind of TOs banning out cards. They also then changed the cards after that.

It's a really terrible situation to be in. You can't hold tournaments with banned cards while also having support from Blizzard.
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Used to be able to "ban" cards by a gentleman's agreement but that's not nearly doable now. And even if it were i'm sure Blizzard wouldn't be happy about it.

Blizzard's anti-banning stance is unfortunate. I understand the slippery slope argument but a straight ban from competitive tournaments is a quicker and cleaner answer than waiting for nerfs and hoping it's effective but not destructive.

Just a reflection of the disconnect between what Blizzard thinks Hearthstone is and what the community thinks it is. If those two don't align within a reasonable time frame then HS is just going to be a repeat of SC2.
 
Hearthstone is just far and above more popular than SC2. And heck, your indie devs drool over SC2's success. I was at dreamhack austin and SC2 had a great presence. Yeah- ofc not Counterstrike levels where there's almost no place to sit but still really really large crowds

Even right now HS is #3 on Twitch. Huge success that's not dying anytime soon for sure let's get that straight. Just like how League of Legends not going anywhere.
 
btw some good points on this Value Town whereas they mention Barnes and Yogg.

keep getting interrupted though. wont be able to finish tonight it appears
 
Was playing what seemed to be a zoo (since he played flame imp into void walker), but then my Elekk revealed he had an Anubisath Sentinel, so I started playing him like he was some weird Reno deck, but nope, he was pure zoo, just running Anubisath. Which seemed super weird.
 
My friend messaged me, he's finally a true Hearthstone player with his Legendary pull today:

zethQEM.jpg
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fertygo said:
I'll argue its will affect percentage enough to can't justify bring Druid over Hunter at tourney
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It's not like Hunter was really brought to tourneys at all in Old Gods, probably a nice change.

Yaboosh said:
Was playing what seemed to be a zoo (since he played flame imp into void walker), but then my Elekk revealed he had an Anubisath Sentinel, so I started playing him like he was some weird Reno deck, but nope, he was pure zoo, just running Anubisath. Which seemed super weird.
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I hate when decks do that, play one card that make you misread their entire strategy just because they don't know how to build a deck/don't have all the cards.
 
honestly if they didnt present the game as a competitive tcg, I wouldve been fine with how HS turned out, but since they did, I am not surprised this happened. You can't make a super casual friendly game where less that 50% of the people reach rank 15 on ladder of what Im assuming is "active" players and print cards like yogg then turn around and say hey we love competitive hearthstone and dont think there is any issue with the ladder when its a big part of the qualifiers and RNG.
 
The competitive scene is important to the game. At the same time, however, there are so few people that play at the level (myself included) where it matters that I find it hard to get down about it. Yes, Yogg is annoying and ought to be banned from tournament play. Call of the Wild is also terrible too. But, I'm not at the level where I should be getting mad about it 99 percent of the time. At least that's how I approach it, and it keeps me fairly sane about the game.
 
Miletius said:
The competitive scene is important to the game. At the same time, however, there are so few people that play at the level (myself included) where it matters that I find it hard to get down about it. Yes, Yogg is annoying and ought to be banned from tournament play. Call of the Wild is also terrible too. But, I'm not at the level where I should be getting mad about it 99 percent of the time. At least that's how I approach it, and it keeps me fairly sane about the game.
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Even at the mid level of play... going on online and playing a hard fought game of HS and then have it be stolen from you by Yogg never really feels good.

These problems extend beyond just the 0.0001% of players.
 
Dahbomb said:
Even at the mid level of play... going on online and playing a hard fought game of HS and then have it be stolen from you by Yogg never really feels good.

These problems extend beyond just the 0.0001% of players.
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I assume it feels really good when an opponent plays Yogg and Pyroblasts their own face. Oh how I'd love to be the player to see it, rather than have it happen to.
 
Dahbomb said:
Even at the mid level of play... going on online and playing a hard fought game of HS and then have it be stolen from you by Yogg never really feels good.

These problems extend beyond just the 0.0001% of players.
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While it's pretty frustrating when that happens, I see myself making enough mistakes throughout most games that when Yogg steals the game from me, I get mad, but also ask myself if I could have done anything better. Most of the time the answer is yes. That's just me though. As long as I can improve at the game, I don't get as mad about swingy stuff. But again, that's not to say it doesn't feel bad. But, I just look at it from that perspective.
 
This was the comback of the night for me: https://hsreplay.net/replay/75w8DDkYmiFfSoTYjTZYQi

Real nail biter, dragon paladin vs zoolock (heavy on the discard focus)

(this guy played succubus with evil dude on board, it sacrificed his silverware golem, then he plays malchezzar's imp and soulfire's my face which plays fist of jarraxus that hits face - 10 health by turn 5, and then he plays doomguard which sacs his second fist of jarraxus hitting face again bringing me down to 1)

edit: Holy shit, I understand why I won that match. I thought something was off. When he played his last soul fire he had no cards left in hand to discard, so his tiny knight didn't get buffed and I lived by 1 health!
---------------------

Yeah, I agree that yogg is pretty bs even at mid levels of play.

What was weird today is that I didn't run into many games decided by yogg, and the game is still very good when that happened. I played a couple new deck variations and even the hunter/shaman numbers were sorta low.

I think it's really just yogg must be changed, even though I would prefer to see a few more than that. And since tuskar totemic is being cycled out in next rotation, at least we don't have to suffer that card... after that happens in 8 months.

I'm having more fun this after this set than last I think. Just feels like there are more interesting archetypes for whatever reason.
 
Miletius said:
While it's pretty frustrating when that happens, I see myself making enough mistakes throughout most games that when Yogg steals the game from me, I get mad, but also ask myself if I could have done anything better. Most of the time the answer is yes. That's just me though. As long as I can improve at the game, I don't get as mad about swingy stuff. But again, that's not to say it doesn't feel bad. But, I just look at it from that perspective.
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That's a good attitude to have early on. That's the main way I improved early on too.

Analyze all plays from start to finish and figured out where I could've made a better play. Eventually it got to the point where the only way I could've made the correct play was if I was psychic and knew what my opponent's hand and top decks were but that's where percentages and making good reads comes into play.

But the better you get, the more painful those RNG elements hit you. When you do the numbers you realize that a random ping early on in the game decided the outcome of the game because of the way the game snow balled from there. It's why people are so mad at Tuskar Totemic right now as well.


This was the comback of the night for me: https://hsreplay.net/replay/75w8DDkYmiFfSoTYjTZYQi


Real nail biter, dragon paladin vs zoolock (heavy on the discard focus)

(this guy played succubus with evil dude on board, it sacrificed his silverware golem, then he plays malchezzar's imp and soulfire's my face which plays fist of jarraxus that hits face - 10 health by turn 5, and then he plays doomguard which sacs his second fist of jarraxus hitting face again bringing me down to 1)

edit: Holy shit, I understand why I won that match. I thought something was off. When he played his last soul fire he had no cards left in hand to discard, so his tiny knight didn't get buffed and I lived by 1 health!
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Well you won the match because you top decked Equality at the right time and he didn't kill Lightlord Ragnaros when he had the chance.

The guy did draw the nuts though. Usually playing that deck you either have a bunch of cards that Discard or cards that benefit from discard but not both. Sometimes you don't have Imp on board either so yeah... he got super lucky with that opener.
 
I'll say its affect the tourney scene the most

Let be real, Yogg madness is balancing itself on ladder.. there's just as many bad Yogg just as good Yogg, altho people will only remember the last one that screw them.

But there is no bad Tuskarr, so fuck Tuskarr.
 
fertygo said:
I'll say its affect the tourney scene the most

Let be real, Yogg madness is balancing itself on ladder.. there's just as many bad Yogg just as good Yogg, altho people will only remember the last one that screw them.

But there is no bad Tuskarr, so fuck Tuskarr.
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I think even if yogg is somehow balanced in winrate on ladder, there is still a very real problem in that you really just can't out play yogg. It's largely out of the hands of either player.

I think in gaming, if you're often losing and looking back and not even seeing a route that you could have taken, a way you could have improved you play... that's just bad. And it happened every once in a while is not a big deal. But with yogg, it can happen even when you're playing perfectly and you're ahead most of the game.

It's just a little too often. And it's really up front in your face. It's pretty bad perception wise aswell
 
Dahbomb said:
Even at the mid level of play... going on online and playing a hard fought game of HS and then have it be stolen from you by Yogg never really feels good.

These problems extend beyond just the 0.0001% of players.
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Losing to a high roll on Tuskarr Totemic is about a 100x worse than Yogg. I usually expect that Yogg is going to lead to a huge advantage for my opponent so he never really makes me that angry.
 
Finally starting playing a bit this month, mostly Control Mage, Reno Mage, and Dragon Priest. DP has been strong so far, but I haven't faced many Hunters or Shaman yet.

fertygo said:
I'll say its affect the tourney scene the most

there's just as many bad Yogg just as good Yogg

But there is no bad Tuskarr, so fuck Tuskarr.
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That's not true at all. No one plays Yogg to get ahead more; they play him to recover from a losing position. That usually means a) dealing with the board in some meaningful way or b) gaining cards.

You only need a small amount of cards that interact with "target minion" or "target enemy minion" to have an affect. It may not "win" you the game, but I think someone calculated that it has a higher-than-average chance to impact the game favorably when cast against an enemy with a board.

Your tongue-in-cheek bash against Tuskarr is comparable. There are times when you can get a "bad" Tuskarr, but they're extremely context sensitive (e.g., healing totems against a Northshire Cleric or Mana Tide when in fatigue (lol), or the 1/1 totem against Acolyte of Pain / Patron).

For the record, I don't think Tuskarr is "ok", nor do I think Yogg is "ok".
 
All these calculations are generally meaningless for Yogg.

What's an above average result when Yogg plays 10-15 spells against a board of 3 enemy minions? No one actually knows but I can tell you at that level Yogg accomplishes more than what a 10 mana card should deliver.

Yogg is at its weakest against an empty board, a ton of spells just whiff but against a filled up board it's devastating. It's like a Deathwing that you need to build a spell heavy deck and you generally don't lose your hand (but you lose Yogg instead).


One of the greatest and most overlooked aspect of Yogg are the secrets. Yogg plays a couple of secrets and suddenly you have to play around 10 different secrets. That is enough to disrupt future turns. If a Mage secret is up you are worrying about Counterspell, Mirror Entity and Ice Block at the minimum. If Repentence is up you can get punished for playing your big drop too. And Secrets unlike minions that get spawned by Yogg don't get cleared.

The average Yogg result usually is something like "destroy most of the board, draw cards, put up some secrets, do minor damage to the enemy hero".
 
The Knife Juggler nerf was solid. Still very playable in decks that want to swarm the field, but no long the staple 2 drop in any slightly aggressive deck. The rest of those nerfs weren't as kind, except Hunter's Mark I guess.
 
Mobius and pet octopus said:
I think even if yogg is somehow balanced in winrate on ladder, there is still a very real problem in that you really just can't out play yogg. It's largely out of the hands of either player.

I think in gaming, if you're often losing and looking back and not even seeing a route that you could have taken, a way you could have improved you play... that's just bad. And it happened every once in a while is not a big deal. But with yogg, it can happen even when you're playing perfectly and you're ahead most of the game.

It's just a little too often. And it's really up front in your face. It's pretty bad perception wise aswell
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I agree tho Yogg has to be changed, I think blizz can't ignore all of these negativity.. their hand is really forced now.

But I hope this not stir their attention to bigger problem, Aggro Shaman has became too good of deck, its winrate simply unacceptable anymore, and no counter to it.. this also really big issue.
KuroNeeko said:
That's not true at all. No one plays Yogg to get ahead more; they play him to recover from a losing position. That usually means a) dealing with the board in some meaningful way or b) gaining cards.

You only need a small amount of cards that interact with "target minion" or "target enemy minion" to have an affect. It may not "win" you the game, but I think someone calculated that it has a higher-than-average chance to impact the game favorably when cast against an enemy with a board.

Your tongue-in-cheek bash against Tuskarr is comparable. There are times when you can get a "bad" Tuskarr, but they're extremely context sensitive (e.g., healing totems against a Northshire Cleric or Mana Tide when in fatigue (lol), or the 1/1 totem against Acolyte of Pain / Patron).

For the record, I don't think Tuskarr is "ok", nor do I think Yogg is "ok".
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I do sometime play Yogg to break the stale in the game or fishing lethal tho, its part of why many druid run Malygos now despite they rarely attempt OTK, just for little burst that can be enough. Or for the absolute insanity that happen if you drop yogg while maly alive lol
 
Statistical calculations of what Yogg will do on average isn't worth it anyways, logic is sufficient to tell you that it's a good card to play. Many things can prove without having to have you run the math.

1) Given that all spells originate from you, you have a much higher chance of wiping his board than wiping yours (although with just Yogg on board, chance are you're gonna kill him too). Most AoE in the game targets your opponent exclusively.
2) Given that all secrets in the game cast by you target you, then Yogg will always give you the beneficial effect of a secret and not your opponent.
3) Given that all summoning spells (eg, force of nature and the like) will be cast by you summon minions for you, if you cast a summon spell it will give you minions and not him.
4) Given that the majority of draw cards target you, then most draw spells will be beneficial to you (unless you don't want to draw cards, then, well, SOL I guess).
5) That really only leaves healing spells, direct damage spells, and other targeted effects (like buffs and debuffs) as possible negative effects. And since the majority of those are more likely to hit your opponent than you (since you cast Yogg under optimal conditions), then the only drawback to casting Yogg is that he might heal/buff your opponents minions more than it would heal/buff your own minions. But, the amount of heal/buff spells in the game are dwarfed by the amount of damage spells in the game. So, targeted effects are more likely to harm your opponent than it is to harm you.
 
fertygo said:
I'll say its affect the tourney scene the most

Let be real, Yogg madness is balancing itself on ladder.. there's just as many bad Yogg just as good Yogg, altho people will only remember the last one that screw them.

But there is no bad Tuskarr, so fuck Tuskarr.
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I dont feel that way cause tuskar giving me all healing totem tonight. but you much higher rank then me so..... quaking in my boots man
 
I don't think they are going to nerf Yogg anytime soon.
Just look at how long it took them to nerf Undertaker and Patron Warrior.
These were also way more powerful than Yogg is right now.
 
Dear Blizzard,

As much as I do enjoy the occasional Yogg 'n' Load Hunter game, please delete the shittiest-to-play-against-class in Hearthstone, Hunter. (And nerf Shaman while you're at it.)

Thanks,
Me
 
The situation in Hearthstone is not as bleak for me as others describe it. I am still having fun although I encounter aggro shamans and tempo mages who play yogg.
my yogg of the day yesterday: first yogg cleared my board (he had no board), then he played astral communion and discarded his whole hand (my favorite yogg spell), then he buffed yogg himself really hard and finally he soul siphoned his own yogg. After that turn the conceded.
The next dust is already reserved for crafting my own yogg.
 
rahji said:
The situation in Hearthstone is not as bleak for me as others describe it. I am still having fun although I encounter aggro shamans and tempo mages who play yogg.
my yogg of the day yesterday: first yogg cleared my board (he had no board), then he played astral communion and discarded his whole hand (my favorite yogg spell), then he buffed yogg himself really hard and finally he soul siphoned his own yogg. After that turn the conceded.
The next dust is already reserved for crafting my own yogg.
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I think if you go into it with lowered expectations, it can be fun.
I recommend playing Priest.
 
https://www.reddit.com/r/hearthston...nderstand_why_molten_was_nerfed_to_25/d7dyfve

bbrode said:
Molten Giant was part of the nerfs to prepare for Standard. Certain archetypes would just be evergreen if we didn't hit them, and the meta would be the same each year. If Molten Giant had been in an expansion it probably would have been fine to let rotate into Wild. It's an argument perhaps for rotating a couple cards from Classic instead of nerfing them if Standard is at risk of being stale because of the evergreen sets in future rotations.
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which makes sense but I'm not sure why the put this out instead, because it's clearly nonsense...

Molten Giant is an interesting card, but it’s too easy for players to reduce its mana cost to 0. We’re increasing Molten Giant’s mana cost to 25 to increase the risks players must take to get a free Giant. The changes to Force of Nature and Arcane Golem will make dropping to low health somewhat less risky as well, which helped spur this change.
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But of course we're pushing THE evergreen deck, zoolock, harder than ever for reasons.

You can assume flurry nerf was for the same reason and not whatever the blog said, we didn't get any new weapon at all lol.
 
I'm only hovering Rank 10-8 and I'm still running into a massive amount of Hunters, Shamans, Mages, and Warriors. I haven't seen the other 5 classes all night. I'd like to think I'm at least providing these scum some variety in their matchmaking opponents because they sure as hell aren't giving me anything to talk nicely about.
 
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