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[kirblar]

You can't boil it down to a shitty analogy about bullying.

You can when every time you make a post it's literally arguing to do nothing in the face of an aggressive adversarial nation who has shown absolutely no sign of actually acting in good faith.

 

[BoogieWoogie]

LOL "He's not here anymore NO MORE QUESTIONS"

 

[Prof. Bathtub]

And again - by your logic, Obama was pro-Russia.

I think the contention was he didn't equate differing stances to hunger for nuclear armageddon.

 

[PBY]

You can when every time you make a post it's literally arguing to do nothing in the face of an aggressive adversarial nation who has shown absolutely no sign of actually acting in good faith.

Can we at least get Germany and France on board?

Part of my hesitance is that I don't trust anyone in our military to act in good faith either, not as a baseline, and definitely not in this administration.

 

[Kusagari]

Wow, Sarah must be auditioning for a career change as a comedian today.

 

[PBY]

I think the contention was he didn't equate differing stances to hunger for nuclear armageddon.

I actually agree with that. I don't actually believe that WW3 statement and I take it back. But again - its equally ridiculous as being somehow painted as pro-Russia.

 

[Veritigo_X]

Its not any more absurd than being painted as pro-Russia for the SAME FUCKING STANCES AS OBAMA. Its not a position that rational people cannot disagree on.

There are arguments to be made against arming Ukraine, but maybe do it without literally repeating RT talking points from 2014? I'm pretty sure I never heard Obama sound like a fresh junior member that only posts in Russia threads.

 

[kirblar]

Can we at least get Germany and France on board?

Part of my hesitance is that I don't trust anyone in our military to act in good faith either, not as a baseline, and definitely not in this administration.

The part of our government that would do that is in the hands of people incapable of doing so at best and who are traitors to the country at worst.

So we're forced to use blunt brute force legislation until we have a change in the executive branch.

 

[PBY]

There are arguments to be made against arming Ukraine, but maybe do it without literally repeating RT talking points from 2014? I'm pretty sure I never heard Obama sound like a fresh junior member that only posts in Russia threads.

I've made those on the last page (the exact same ones Obama did). I've also called out a segment of the Ukraine army - a point which you haven't actually rebutted, by the way.

 

[Ourobolus]

Wow, Sarah must be auditioning for a career change as a comedian today.

apple doesn't fall far from the tree

 

[kirblar]

I've made those on the last page (the exact same ones Obama did). I've also called out a segment of the Ukraine army - a point which you haven't actually rebutted, by the way.

And where are you picking up these talking points from, exactly?

 

[pigeon]

I've made those on the last page (the exact same ones Obama did). I've also called out a segment of the Ukraine army - a point which you haven't actually rebutted, by the way.

Didn't somebody already post that we're already banned from funding the Nazis in Ukraine? So the weapons presumably won't go to them.

 

[whyamihere]

So Lou Barletta, Matt Rosendale, and (probably) Rick Scott all running for Senate.

That's a ton of Trump allies running for Senate.

 

[PBY]

And where are you picking up these talking points from, exactly?

These, I picked up from Obama:

Obama specifically was very against arming Ukraine because he felt it would escalate the tensions with Russia, drive up the body count and give Russia an excuse for more attacks.

The point about the Nazi militia may very well be a Russia talking point, I had no idea. But it clearly mattered to our government given that we did place a ban on exports to them (that no longer exists?)

You're not arguing in good faith. You're seeking to shit-talk my intentions, without actually addressing the above. What is wrong with pointing out the above?

Didn't somebody already post that we're already banned from funding the Nazis in Ukraine? So the weapons presumably won't go to them.

Its no longer in place.

 

[Veritigo_X]

I've made those on the last page (the exact same ones Obama did). I've also called out a segment of the Ukraine army - a point which you haven't actually rebutted, by the way.

There's nothing to rebut, the Azov Battalion are nazis. They also represent a tiny part of the Ukrainian military and using them to paint the entire military that way is literally a play out of the pro-Russian handbook during the height of the Russian invasion of Ukraine. The vast majority of the Ukrainian army are volunteers defending their country from foreign invasion.

 

[RumbleHumble]

So Lou Barletta, Matt Rosendale, and (probably) Rick Scott all running for Senate.

That's a ton of Trump allies running for Senate.

May they all lose in spectacular fashion!

 

[PBY]

There's nothing to rebut, the Azov Battalion are nazis. They also represent a tiny part of the Ukrainian military and using them to paint the entire military that way is literally a play out of the pro-Russian handbook during the height of the Russian invasion of Ukraine. The vast majority of the Ukrainian army are volunteers defending their country from foreign invasion.

Okay, then what is wrong with bringing this up in addition to the rest of my arguments? Why can't I say this without being called a Russian stooge?

 

[kirblar]

If you're not planning to invade Ukraine, why is it a problem that Ukraine bolsters their defenses?

Okay, then what is wrong with bringing this up in addition to the rest of my arguments? Why can't I say this without being called a Russian stooge?

Because you're literally parroting Russian propaganda when you make this argument? If you're parroting Russian propaganda, there are generally two explanations, and both of them look bad.

 

[pigeon]

These, I picked up from Obama:


The point about the Nazi militia may very well be a Russia talking point, I had no idea. But it clearly mattered to our government given that we did place a ban on exports to them (that no longer exists?)

You're not arguing in good faith. You're seeking to shit-talk my intentions, without actually addressing the above. What is wrong with pointing out the above?


Its no longer in place.

Can you think of anything that happened since then that ramped up tensions with Russia already and made defending Ukraine more of a priority?

 

[Slacker]

Today's Trump Tweet For Every Occasion:

Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump
Wow was Ted Cruz disloyal to his very capable director of communication. He used him as a scape goat-fired like a dog! Ted panicked.

 

[PBY]

If you're not planning to invade Ukraine, why is it a problem that Ukraine bolsters their defenses?

Because you're literally parroting Russian propaganda when you make this argument? If you're parroting Russian propaganda, there are generally two explanations, and both of them look bad.

Dude fuck off with this seriously.

Is one of the explanations that, hey, Nazis are bad? And they were enough of a problem that our Congress considered the issue?

 

[kirblar]

Dude fuck off with this seriously.

Is one of the explanations that, hey, Nazis are bad? And they were enough of a problem that our Congress considered the issue?

If you are parroting Russian propaganda you are either doing so because

-you are gullible enough to fall for it
-you know its bullshit but deliberately want to push it

As I said, neither is a good look.

 

[smokeymicpot]

If there were any big bombs to drop today would be the perfect day.

 

[PBY]

Can you think of anything that happened since then that ramped up tensions with Russia already and made defending Ukraine more of a priority?

But the same thing happened in France and Germany, and yet...

If you are parroting Russian propaganda you are either doing so because

-you are gullible enough to fall for it
-you know its bullshit but deliberately want to push it

This is the dumbest fucking argument my dude.

 

[tbm24]

If there were any big bombs to drop today would be the perfect day.

The big bombs had to take a break, they didn't see the mooch bomb going off first.

 

[Ernest]

 

[Random Human]

Kelly's going to rein in the craziness for about a week and then Trump will go back to screwing it all up.

 

[kirblar]

Kelly's going to rein in the craziness for about a week and then Trump will go back to screwing it all up.

It'll only last for as long as Trump's on vacation.

 

[pigeon]

But the same thing happened in France and Germany, and yet...



This is the dumbest fucking argument my dude.

So why don't France and Germany agree with the plan? What's their reasoning?

 

[GoldenEye 007]

May they all lose in spectacular fashion!

Scott will probably have a solid shot. He's a 2 term governor, the FL economy is pretty strong from what I remember, and not enough people care about the environment/climate change. Or rampant corruption in healthcare.

 

[smokeymicpot]

The big bombs had to take a break, they didn't see the mooch bomb going off first.

With no one in charge of communications this is the perfect day.

 

[BoogieWoogie]

Imagine having to take a bullet for THAT

 

[Greigor The Fellhand]

But the same thing happened in France and Germany, and yet...



This is the dumbest fucking argument my dude.

it really isn't. don't feel bad if you were intially tricked by propaganda, thats what its meant to do. what matters is once people realize its propaganda its how they react to it. your pretending its not happening and demanding even more proof, russia without question meddled in our election and elections of other western nations. that in and of it self is an act of war.

It might not turn into a physical war, but a cyber war non the less.

appropriate reactions and safe guards must be put in place to A. deter future attacks. B. Shore up our defenses and infrastructures to prevent this from happening in the futue. C. Making the public aware of what is going on.

increasing sanctions is appropriate, arming ukraine so it can defend itself and its soverign self from another foreign aggressor is primary and necessary to protect nato.

If france had stolen part of ukraine, russia would arm ukraine.

It's a buffer state, dont pretend it isnt important.

 

[PBY]

So why don't France and Germany agree with the plan? What's their reasoning?

They're worried about escalation? Clearly there are economic incentives at play, but I trust their leadership a hell of a lot more than ours.

 

[PBY]

it really isn't. don't feel bad if you were intially tricked by propaganda, thats what its meant to do. what matters is once people realize its propaganda its how they react to it. your pretending its not happening and demanding even more proof, russia without question meddled in our election and elections of other western nations. that in and of it self is an act of war.

Wait. How was I "tricked" by propaganda? Are there not 3000+ Nazis in the Ukraine army? Whether or not this is Russian propaganda... this is also a fact.

Its not the sole, or main, basis for my argument, which I've reiterated over and over the last two pages.

How about you address the actual point?

 

[Ernest]

A tweet for EVERYTHING!

Donald J. Trump
✔
@realDonaldTrump

Wow was Ted Cruz disloyal to his very capable director of communication. He used him as a scape goat-fired like a dog! Ted panicked.
7:40 AM - Feb 23, 2016

 

[kirblar]

Wait. How was I "tricked" by propaganda? Are there not 3000+ Nazis in the Ukraine army? Whether or not this is Russian propaganda... this is also a fact.

Its not the sole, or main, basis for my argument, which I've reiterated over and over the last two pages.

How about you address the actual point?

The actual point is talking about Russian aggression in Eastern Europe and how to best help Ukraine defend itself against further possible Russian incursions into their borders.

You insist on talking about Obama and Nazis.

 

[Greigor The Fellhand]

Wait. How was I "tricked" by propaganda? Are there not 3000+ Nazis in the Ukraine army? Whether or not this is Russian propaganda... this is also a fact.

Its not the sole, or main, basis for my argument, which I've reiterated over and over the last two pages.

How about you address the actual point?

for clarity for myself, what actual is the point your trying to make. Because I at least, do not understand it. And I wish to give an appropriate response.

 

[PBY]

The actual point is talking about Russian aggression in Eastern Europe and how to best help Ukraine defend itself against further possible Russian incursions into their borders.

You insist on talking about Obama and Nazis.

My point is (1) we should be very fucking careful about shipping arms to the Ukraine, given that we don't want to escalate tensions and drive up a body count and inflame that area (this was the very reason Obama staunchly was against this) (2) the fact that our allies France and Germany, whose leadership I trust 1000x more than ours and who were also hacked by Russia don't agree with this, and (3) the fact that there is a not-insignificant segment of the Ukraine army, which will receive these weapons, that are Nazis with a history of intense human rights violations.

You can disagree with the above, but it is not an irrational stance.

 

[kirblar]

My point is (1) we should be very fucking careful about shipping arms to the Ukraine, given that we don't want to escalate tentions, drive up a body count and inflame that area (this was the very reason Obama staunchly was against this) (2) the fact that our allies France and Germany, whose leadership I trust 1000x more than ours and who were also hacked by Russia don't agree with this, and (3) the fact that there is a not-insignificant segment of the Ukraine army, which will receive these weapons, that are Nazis with a history of intense human rights violations.

You can disagree with the above, but it is not an irrational stance.

For there to be a body count, Russia must have invaded Ukraine.

The inverse will not occur, they are hopelessly outmatched and know it.

Therefore, when arguing for a "lower body count", you are arguing that in the event Ukraine is invaded, that they should just surrender.

 

[AntraxSuicide]

So why don't France and Germany agree with the plan? What's their reasoning?

Ceding the Ukraine to Russia is better than losing money from energy is their reasoning.

 

[whyamihere]

how

does

this

keep

happening

@realDonaldTrump
Wow was Ted Cruz disloyal to his very capable director of communication. He used him as a scape goat-fired like a dog! Ted panicked.

 

[kirblar]

how

does

this

keep

happening

We told everyone he was projection incarnate. They didn't listen.

 

[PBY]

Ceding the Ukraine to Russia is better than losing money from energy is their reasoning.

That isn't their stated reasoning, but I agree that you can't ignore the economic incentives at play here. Merkel believes arming Ukraine only intensifies the proxy war between the US and Russian and will continue to escalate tensions.

 

[AntraxSuicide]

That isn't their stated reasoning, but I agree that you can't ignore the economic incentives at play here.

Their stated reason is naive to the point of stupidity so I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt.

 

[watershed]

Obama misplayed Russia hard, as evidenced by their continued aggression towards their neighbors and their ridiculously successful interference campaign of our own presidential election. The problem going forward is that Trump is simply not fit to deal with Russia in a way that furthers the US' own interests. He is a simpering tool of Putin. Any policy towards Russia is going to be disjointed and messy. Sanctions on one hand from congress and what exactly from the executive branch? It's uncoordinated. Our policy towards Russia is likely to get worse and worse.

 

[PBY]

Their stated reason is naive to the point of stupidity so I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt.

Well unfortunately I trust their leadership more than ours

 

[Drkirby]

It'll only last for as long as Trump's on vacation.

So we will get a good month of a sane white house? Not bad.

 

[AntraxSuicide]

Well unfortunately I trust their leadership more than ours

Our executive branch isn't really relevant. Congress is thankfully going around our pro-Russian executive branch to actually do things.

 

[PBY]

Our executive branch isn't really relevant. Congress is thankfully going around our pro-Russian executive branch to actually do things.

I don't trust Congress and I definitely don't trust our military.

You all accuse me of slinging Russian talking points, but the above are GOP talking points from the past 2 years. McCain was banging the drum of arming the Ukraine years ago.