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[Black Mamba]

I can argue it.

C's i'd rather have.

Howard, Monroe, Jordon, Marc, Noah, Bogut, Lopez. You could argue maybe 2 of those guys, but i also excluded a few Horford, Hibbert, Nene that are as inconcsistent as bynum is. You throw the phrase top 5 around like it's nothing and / or a given. It really isn't, and even then, he slides in at the 5 spot, not above.

Marc Gasol? he's not even having a good season. Greg Monroe is surely a joke comment. What has he done?

Howard is a no-brainer. And Bogut with a normal arm you could argue and possibly Noah. Brook Lopez, please. Dude can't even rebound anymore and his defense is still trash.

Hibbert is improved, but not to the point Bynum is at.

Horford fine, but he's out of position and head to head, Horford was nothing but a jump shooter against Drew.

Nene is a solid C, but he doesn't have the same impact Drew has.

All the advanced stats will back me up. PER, Win shares, etc. Not that they're the end all. After all, Drew's defensive impact is understated. But I don't see how a couple of those players even compare. As I said, this place likes to shit on Drew and mostly because of his health issues, but his performance is better than all those guys except Dwight, Bogut, and Horford when healthy. Nene I'll allow an argument to be made. No one else.


edit: Didn't notice Deandre Jordan on the list. No. The guy is only a dunker on offense and defensively isn't as good, though solid. And he airballs half his FTs.

 

[The Frankman]

You've been madly defending a scrub, who's on whose jock?

riiiiiiiiiight. Remember, stay mad.

 

[NomarTyme]

This is some college basket shit.

 

[AlphaSnake]

I find it funny Anthony Carter has had to burn. The guy changes the defensive intensity when he comes in, wasn't he supposed to play some backup PG so Toney D could play SG?

Carter has hands made of butter. And his plays are terrible. Dude takes the worst shots. Makes the poorest decisions. Fuck him, he's a total screw up.

 

[AlphaSnake]

I turned off the game. This is piss poor work.

 

[Omiee]

You finally beat the Jazz whoot whoot. Minnesota did better.

Guess what? You're shitty team doesn't have any more wins than my shitty team.

i think this might be the first time i respond to you, but you sound bitter most of the time.
either your trolling people or bashing their teams. cant you just be happy about your own team or do you get that pleasure from bashing other people's team's

 

[NomarTyme]

bucks just broke the 40 pt barrier in the 4th!

 

[FantasticMrFoxdie]

No one in double-digit points for the bucks in the 4th. lol


R they even trying?

 

[The Frankman]

I turned off the game. This is piss poor work.

The Billups Effect...

Omiee, welcome to dIEHARD.

 

[dream]

i think this might be the first time i respond to you, but you sound bitter most of the time.
either your trolling people or bashing their teams. cant you just be happy about your own team or do you get that pleasure from bashing other people's team's

He's a Jazz fan...

 

[Black Mamba]

bucks just broke the 40 pt barrier in the 4th!

I didn't realize what was going on there. Yeeeesh. Cavs 55 in jeopardy here.

 

[FantasticMrFoxdie]

Is there a GAF fantasy league going? If not we should start one next season

 

[Omiee]

No one in double-digit points for the bucks in the 4th. lol


R they even trying?

yeahs its been a awful game to watch. Also i did not know the celts did not have a losing streak larger than 3 since for over a year, thats pretty impressive.

 

[jobber]

every game sucks so far....Warriors gonna save this night

 

[diehard]

i think this might be the first time i respond to you, but you sound bitter most of the time.
either your trolling people or bashing their teams. cant you just be happy about your own team or do you get that pleasure from bashing other people's team's

DY is gone now man.

riiiiiiiiiight. Remember, stay mad.

I thought it was salty? Stick with one tagline, bro.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

I didn't realize what was going on there. Yeeeesh. Cavs 55 in jeopardy here.

Bulls had 49 in 1999.

 

[MidnightCowboy]

No one in double-digit points for the bucks in the 4th. lol


R they even trying?

I know they've been injured all season, but I don't think any team, besides probably the Jazz, have had a more disappointing season than the Bucks. They won 46 games last year. Everyone thought they'd be a 50 win team this year. Dear god, they're terrible.

 

[Omiee]

i actually feel bad for the bucks, apart from salmons that team is pretty decent and they have a pretty good coach. I for one really thought they would go for 50 wins this season.

 

[Blackace]

Marc Gasol? he's not even having a good season. Greg Monroe is surely a joke comment. What has he done?



Hibbert is improved, but not to the point Bynum is at.

Lawl... Monroe is like light years better than Drew. Plain and simple he knows how to play basketball better.

Hibbert? No point near AB? Whatever...

PER stats are a shitty way to prove anything about player on a stacked team.

 

[giri]

Marc Gasol? he's not even having a good season. Greg Monroe is surely a joke comment. What has he done?

Howard is a no-brainer. And Bogut with a normal arm you could argue and possibly Noah. Brook Lopez, please. Dude can't even rebound anymore and his defense is still trash.

Hibbert is improved, but not to the point Bynum is at.

Horford fine, but he's out of position and head to head, Horford was nothing but a jump shooter against Drew.

Nene is a solid C, but he doesn't have the same impact Drew has.

All the advanced stats will back me up. PER, Win shares, etc. Not that they're the end all. After all, Drew's defensive impact is understated. But I don't see how a couple of those players even compare. As I said, this place likes to shit on Drew and mostly because of his health issues, but his performance is better than all those guys except Dwight, Bogut, and Horford when healthy. Nene I'll allow an argument to be made. No one else.

Oh, you'll allow me to argue Nene? how delightful of you. And you don't even know who monroe is? Lets dismiss him then! Jordon, Chandler both play the level of D people dreamed Bynum might one day.

And how short your memory, just last season people were whining continuosly about bynums complete lack of rebounding. So he goes on a good stretch and all is forgiven? He's done this before too.

No, i'd take lopez over him instantly. And i think Brooke lopez is bitch made (if he had his brothers anger and competitiveness he'd be so much better, you know, like he was last season).

But you can go play the per36/PER game with thekad, because if all you're falling back on is advanced stats, i don't really care about you, hollinger.

 

[Black Mamba]

Bulls had 49 in 1999.

just meant for the season.

I remember that 49. Brutal. That team as a whole was pretty terrible.

 

[Omiee]

lol @ rondo's game so far.

 

[The Frankman]

How do you feel about +/- then Blackace?

 

[MidnightCowboy]

On the topic of centers, I just want to give a shout out to my boy DeAndre Jordan. On offense, he only knows how to dunk, but he's a great defensive player. Blake has really helped him grow into a quality player.

 

[MidnightCowboy]

lol @ rondo's game so far.

Rondo isn't needed much in this game, that's why his stats are underwhelming. I will say though, Rondo usually turns up his game for the playoffs. That's when you really realize how good he is.

 

[The Frankman]

THE PACERS HAVE RESORTED TO THUGGERY!!!

why would Foster push Turiaf for going over to help Amar'e?

 

[Omiee]

Rondo isn't needed much in this game, that's why his stats are underwhelming. I will say though, Rondo usually turns up his game for the playoffs. That's when you really realize how good he is.

look he's a decent player but his stats are overrated imo.

 

[Black Mamba]

Lawl... Monroe is like light years better than Drew. Plain and simple he knows how to play basketball better.

Hibbert? No point near AB? Whatever...

PER stats are a shitty way to prove anything about player on a stacked team.

PER is a so-so stat. But Bynum has a PER of 21.5. Monroe is 16.9. Rarely is a disparity that large not accurate.

Win shares is .21 compared to Monroe's .123. That a huge discrepancy.

Hibbert shoots below 50% TS%. That's terrible for a center. Terrible might be an understatement.

Lakers weren't considered stacked when Bynum blew up before the Gasol trade. If anything, his production should have dropped but it really hasn't.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Center rankings for this season.

1. Dwight

2. Amar'e

3. Chandler
4. Duncan
5. Big Al
6. Horford
7. Bogut
8. Nene
9. Noah
10. Bynum
11. Brook
12. Okafor
13. Gortat


Brook probably hits #6 if he keeps playing hard for the rest of the season, but he's only cared in like ten games this season so it's hard to put him higher. Al vs. Bogut is hard since it's no D versus no O for the most disappointing teams in the NBA, but Al hasn't missed any games this season despite being made of glass and with everyone hating him so he gets an accomplishment bonus and Bogut will be #2 again next year whereas Al probably won't. Bynum and Noah would be higher if they stayed healthy. Jefferson gets in over EAS (Horford) due to homer bonus and because the Hawks suck despite their insane talent level so you can't hold against Jefferson for EAS. Okafor could be higher, but he had his second injury ever and it has really hurt him. Foster and Asik are awesome, but they don't play enough.


edit: Also, I'll add to this, DeMarcus Cousins has no shot of surpassing anyone on this list next season other than Paid Chandler. He also will not surpass Foster, Asik, Monroe, Marc, Camby and may not surpass Avi Lee, JaVale, or Hibbert. He's going to be between the 17th and 21st best center next year.

 

[MidnightCowboy]

look he's a decent player but his stats are overrated imo.

I know he's passing to quality players, but so is Jameer Nelson, Derek Fisher, etc. His stats are possibly a little inflated, but I feel like people overstate how overrated he is. The dude is a fantastic player, even if he can't shoot. And don't even quote this dIEHARD, nobody cares what you think.

 

[giri]

PER is a so-so stat. But Bynum has a PER of 21.5. Monroe is 16.9. Rarely is a disparity that large not accurate.

Win shares is .21 compared to Monroe's .123. That a huge discrepancy.

Hibbert shoots below 50% TS%. That's terrible for a center. Terrible might be an understatement.

Lakers weren't considered stacked when Bynum blew up before the Gasol trade. If anything, his production should have dropped but it really hasn't.

So you get told PER isn't as valid a tool when comparing players on stacked teams vs not stacked, so you go and compare monroe's per. He's on the pistons, man, they're the definition of "not stacked".

Hibbert, like the rest of that pacers team, is just fucking bizzare. They have 3 players that should be able to play all star calibre ball, and many decent role players. How they keep underperforming i don't know. But it's going to end up with a Grainger fire sale soon. Grainger & Collison for Nash!!!!

 

[The Frankman]

Damn Collison learned well from Chris Paul. Dude was soccer-like there.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Their problem is that Psycho T and Jeff Foster are their best players. You can love those types of players, but those aren't guys who lead a team to anything.

 

[Hootie]

the bucks just put up 56 total points against the celtics

 

[Omiee]

this is one of those moments for the knicks to prove they can turn a game around and get a win, thats something you would expect from a contender.
But they cant seem to get any stops and cut the lead to single digits.

 

[Black Mamba]

Oh, you'll allow me to argue Nene? how delightful of you. And you don't even know who monroe is? Lets dismiss him then! Jordon, Chandler both play the level of D people dreamed Bynum might one day.

And how short your memory, just last season people were whining continuosly about bynums complete lack of rebounding. So he goes on a good stretch and all is forgiven? He's done this before too.

No, i'd take lopez over him instantly. And i think Brooke lopez is bitch made (if he had his brothers anger and competitiveness he'd be so much better, you know, like he was last season).

But you can go play the per36/PER game with thekad, because if all you're falling back on is advanced stats, i don't really care about you, hollinger.

I know who monroe is, I said "what has he done?" he's a solid player for a rookie, but to put him at the likes of a Bynum is absurd.

lol @ Jordan playing D like Bynum. Thankfully, I watch both a lot. Jordan is a solid help defender and shot blocker, but not the man to man defender Drew is, and Drew keeps people well out of the paint in general a lot more.

Lopez's defense is like sieve. How he's in the discussion is beyond me.

Bynum's impact on defense is easy for us to see when we watch. The numbers every season confirm it when looking at 5 man unit productions. Since his return, their def efficiency has improved quite a lot.

the per36 thing is stupid (i remember thekad talking about that). And I have issues with PER. But Advanced stats shouldn't be ignored altogether. They should compliment what we see with our own eyes. if you ignore that aspect, then you are not having an honest conversation about basketball.


Last season's argument about Bynum's lack of rebounding was misguided. Last season the team rebounded better with Drew out there than any other big man combo (including Gasol-Odom) even though both Pau and Lamar were better rebounders by the numbers. Reason being, Andrew's defense forced more reboundable shots and he would clear out the paint on rebounds for teammates to snag them. Box scores don't capture this, but I saw it and the 5 man unit numbers confirmed it.

As I said, his impact is understated. People continually said Bynum and gasol don't work well on offense and yet each season the gasol-bynum combo had the best 5 man offensive efficiency numbers. Go figure.

 

[MidnightCowboy]

Their problem is that Psycho T and Jeff Foster are their best players. You can love those types of players, but those aren't guys who lead a team to anything.

Being a Jazz fan has blinded you man. It's like the only players you like are hardworking white dudes. Just because someone works hard does not mean he's a teams best player. Jeff Foster is at best a decent player. Danny Granger doesn't give a fuck and he's still better than Jeff Foster. Don't even try to argue this man. It's like when you talk about Jeremy Evans. He's a scrub man, let it go.

 

[Blackace]

PER is a so-so stat. But Bynum has a PER of 21.5. Monroe is 16.9. Rarely is a disparity that large not accurate.

Win shares is .21 compared to Monroe's .123. That a huge discrepancy.

Hibbert shoots below 50% TS%. That's terrible for a center. Terrible might be an understatement.

Lakers weren't considered stacked when Bynum blew up before the Gasol trade. If anything, his production should have dropped but it really hasn't.

AB hasn't seen a double team Pau has gotten there.. He plays poor D, and is an idiot in the post. He takes poor shots, doesnt rotate well which is why he doesn't play very much in the 4th if he was better than all those centers why does LO get bulk of the playing during crunch time? Maybe Phil needs to look up the PER!

 

[The Frankman]

this is one of those moments for the knicks to prove they can turn a game around and get a win, thats something you would expect from a contender.
But they cant seem to get any stops and cut the lead to single digits.

Oh they're getting stops now (Pacers have 4 points in 6 minutes), but the Knicks' offense is so disjointed right now. Anthony is just collecting O fouls, Billups looks rusty as hell, and they're not looking to goto Amar'e for the open jumper. They should work off Amar'e, he's a willing passer if doubled.

 

[MidnightCowboy]

Andrew Bynum is the most overrated and underrated player in the league. He's clearly not a top 5 center like Black Mamba is suggesting, but he's no scrub either.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Being a Jazz fan has blinded you man. It's like the only players you like are hardworking white dudes. Just because someone works hard does not mean he's a teams best player. Jeff Foster is at best a decent player. Danny Granger doesn't give a fuck and he's still better than Jeff Foster. Don't even try to argue this man. It's like when you talk about Jeremy Evans. He's a scrub man, let it go.

Granger is a cancer who only plays hard when the Pacers have a top 3 pick on the way. Still, I guess he is better than Foster . Still, that team's talent is incredibly overrated. And JE is awesome, quit hating.

AB hasn't seen a double team Pau has gotten there.. He plays poor D, and is an idiot in the post. He takes poor shots, doesnt rotate well which is why he doesn't play very much in the 4th if he was better than all those centers why does LO get bulk of the playing during crunch time? Maybe Phil needs to look up the PER!

Really? Bynum a poor defender? He clogs the lane, can shut down guys 1-1, defends the PnR, and protects the basket, he's what you want a center to do be other than major knee injuries. He could be a lot better but he's good.

 

[Tom Penny]

Troy Murphy scored more than any Buck. That is fucking despicable.

 

[Black Mamba]

So you get told PER isn't as valid a tool when comparing players on stacked teams vs not stacked, so you go and compare monroe's per. He's on the pistons, man, they're the definition of "not stacked".

Hibbert, like the rest of that pacers team, is just fucking bizzare. They have 3 players that should be able to play all star calibre ball, and many decent role players. How they keep underperforming i don't know. But it's going to end up with a Grainger fire sale soon. Grainger & Collison for Nash!!!!

This is not true at all. Statistical studies have been done that seem to indicate going from one team to another has about a correlation of .75, which means mostly what someone gives you on team A he will give you on team B regardless of teammates. There is some movement of course, but most of it tends to be with regards to rebounding where a bad team a player rebounds better.

Furthermore, Dean Oliver demonstrated that as usage increases, so does ORating, by a 1% to 1 ratio roughly and since Bynum's ORating is higher with a higher usage, it would indicate he's even better in comparison on offense.

Hibbert has always shot around 50% TS%. That is terrible. There is no way around that. And there is no indication than a player like Nash would make him all of a sudden shoot 60%. That kind of jump would be very rare.


We'll have to continue later. I'm going out to eat.

 

[msdstc]

This is what the Celts need to learn. If you come out and shut it down early, your starters have to work less. I hate the mentality of well we'll turn it on in the playoffs. If you turn it on and shut it down early not only do you get your starters the rest they need, but you get valuable minutes for the bench players. Tonight Murphy finally got out of his funk, Davis got into a rhythm, Arroyo got a feel for the second unit, and so on so forth.

I'm still not a believer that Krstic is this good, but damn he's been really getting it done lately.

 

[Blackace]

Being a Jazz fan has blinded you man. It's like the only players you like are hardworking white dudes. Just because someone works hard does not mean he's a teams best player. Jeff Foster is at best a decent player. Danny Granger doesn't give a fuck and he's still better than Jeff Foster. Don't even try to argue this man. It's like when you talk about Jeremy Evans. He's a scrub man, let it go.

Jeff Foster is hot trash

 

[MidnightCowboy]

Granger is a cancer who only plays hard when the Pacers have a top 3 pick on the way. Still, I guess he is better than Foster . Still, that team's talent is incredibly overrated. And JE is awesome, quit hating.

I was hating haha, sorry. I like Hansbrough though. I'd say the most disappointing thing about them is Collison is the exact same player he was last year, possibly even worse. I thought he would be a beast after last year, but he's done nothing this year.

 

[The Frankman]

This is what the Celts need to learn. If you come out and shut it down early, your starters have to work less. I hate the mentality of well we'll turn it on in the playoffs. If you turn it on and shut it down early not only do you get your starters the rest they need, but you get valuable minutes for the bench players. Tonight Murphy finally got out of his funk, Davis got into a rhythm, Arroyo got a feel for the second unit, and so on so forth.

I'm still not a believer that Krstic is this good, but damn he's been really getting it done lately.

If you ever saw Nenad pre-injury... dude has had problems finding his old form, but on a playoff team Nenad can be good. VERY good.

EDIT: Checked his numbers... yeah he's not really a big rebounder, but he'll hit that 17-foot jumper all day and is more willing to bang than you'd think.

 

[Blackace]

Really? Bynum a poor defender? He clogs the lane, can shut down guys 1-1, defends the PnR, and protects the basket, he's what you want a center to do be other than major knee injuries. He could be a lot better but he's good.

He makes poor decisions and is often out of position. A good defender not only clogs the lanes because any big body can do that..

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

I was hating haha, sorry. I like Hansbrough though. I'd say the most disappointing thing about them is Collison is the exact same player he was last year, possibly even worse. I thought he would be a beast after last year, but he's done nothing this year.

System PG.

Spoiler

I wish the Jazz could have system Point Guard'd Devin Harris, but it looks like he's the same as before

 

[Black Mamba]

AB hasn't seen a double team Pau has gotten there.. He plays poor D, and is an idiot in the post. He takes poor shots, doesnt rotate well which is why he doesn't play very much in the 4th if he was better than all those centers why does LO get bulk of the playing during crunch time? Maybe Phil needs to look up the PER!

Almost nothing said here is accurate. Drew is still double-teamed in the post (often of of Fisher or Artest). He is the Lakers best post & help defender on a very good defensive team. He takes poor shots and yet has a high TS%!? He doesn't rotate well?

All our defensive numbers are better every season with Drew in the game than out. He doesn't play because he would get tired and Phil trusts Lamar. But he has closed out the last couple games and has closed out games in the past.

LO stretches the floor when the Lakers run screen & roll more in the 4th, as well. It's mostly about trust, not anything else. But Phil has trusted him lately. Bynum also starts every 4th per rotation so he should be coming out at closing time.

In fact, Phil often plays the bench unit with Byunm rather than gasol. I think that says a lot about what Drew offers.

anyway, really gtg.