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[BocoDragon]

The disdain for XIII is real. Perhaps linearity doesn't bother others as much? It certainly didn't bother me that much and I like XIII over VIII and XII. And this is with context of having played various types of games western or Japanese. Not saying the game is perfect and I'd say it has larger issues than its linearity, but does that mean people can't think the game is good or a decent FF?

You already have people saying XV isn't Final Fantasy. "The combat isn't ATB or turn based." "You only get to control one character." "There's 'mmo' kill quests." "It's open world with open world bloat.".

"Disdain" isn't the right word. I'd wager that despite my strong words, I'm actually in the top-percentile of FFXIII apologists on this planet. I love the battle system, I adore the music, and I'm very fond of the outer posturing of the storyline.*

But what I have no patience for is people claiming that everything was a-okay with that game's level layouts, when we know the game was rushed in 18 months. The linearity of the layouts were beyond anything in AAA gaming, and we know it's because that's an arena they couldn't bulk out in the limited timeframe they have.

I am certain people working at Square Enix would have regrets about that game's layout. It's not their golden ideal vision that we're supposed to regard as the best possible effort. So I do pity fanboys efforts to portray it as perfect. I know FFXIII has good elements, but I don't excuse the places where it clearly falls short.


---

* I love the outer posturing of the drama, it had the sheen of pathos. But it's not actually saying anything coherent. The core of that drama was objectively weak... the heroes and villains motivation turning on a dime with a new "word salad" speech. "We're running toward Eden- no, we're running from it, because platitudes" or "Cid Raines is a good guy. No- he's decided he's a bad guy, because platitudes!"

 

[Falk]

I think one thing I really did enjoy from XIII's pacing and presentation was that when the party split up, and you pretty much followed everyone. Despite Lightning being on the box art, it did feel like the focus was on the party as a whole and their interactions with each other.

Lightning and Hope in the junkyard, Vanille and Sazh through a carnival, etc.

I think the only other game that really did that as opposed to being glued to an MC and having people come and go w.r.t that main party would have been 6, albeit with a far larger cast.

 

[BocoDragon]

I think one thing I really did enjoy from XIII's pacing and presentation was that when the party split up, and you pretty much followed everyone. Despite Lightning being on the box art, it did feel like the focus was on the party as a whole and their interactions with each other.

Lightning and Hope in the junkyard, Vanille and Sazh through a carnival, etc.

I think the only other game that really did that as opposed to being glued to an MC and having people come and go w.r.t that main party would have been 6, albeit with a far larger cast.

I love that "FF6 scenarios" aspect. It's such a great feeling when the narrative follows certain characters, and you're totally unsure of the fate of the rest of the party.

 

[mickagau33]

I think one thing I really did enjoy from XIII's pacing and presentation was that when the party split up, and you pretty much followed everyone. Despite Lightning being on the box art, it did feel like the focus was on the party as a whole and their interactions with each other.

Lightning and Hope in the junkyard, Vanille and Sazh through a carnival, etc.

I think the only other game that really did that as opposed to being glued to an MC and having people come and go w.r.t that main party would have been 6, albeit with a far larger cast.

Same here. To me the beginning of the game was good. Beautiful, fast paced, linear and with some cringeworthy moments...Like it is the case for almost every other FF. It is really later on that I begun to feel the disapointement (no towns, the same structure going on and on and on, and the promised "it is good and more open 20hrs later" being really disapointing)

 

[Mailbox]

I think one thing I really did enjoy from XIII's pacing and presentation was that when the party split up, and you pretty much followed everyone. Despite Lightning being on the box art, it did feel like the focus was on the party as a whole and their interactions with each other.

Lightning and Hope in the junkyard, Vanille and Sazh through a carnival, etc.

I think the only other game that really did that as opposed to being glued to an MC and having people come and go w.r.t that main party would have been 6, albeit with a far larger cast.

What about FF9's active time events? (or stuff in disk 1 and 2 where you play as steiner and dagger for bits)

 

[Via Purifico]

There's quite a few things it did right it's just that everything else around it wasn't up to par. I personally found the sequels worse than XIII and in the camp that it wasn't that bad but could have been better.

 

[Falk]

What about FF9's active time events? (or stuff in disk 1 and 2 where you play as steiner and dagger for bits)

FF7 also had that arc where Cloud went on mental vacation. I don't think the scale is quite the same.

edit: I guess the distinction is the VI and XIII examples are like vertical slices of 'the works' as far as the full game go - narrative, levelling, sidequests, preparing for bosses, etc. with meaningful power level progression that feeds back into the main plot, as opposed to smaller cutscene/story slices. VIII had the Laguna sections, and while it almost gets there, the RPG stats/etc. you get during those sections are inconsequential towards the main game.

 

[Koozek]

"Disdain" isn't the right word. I'd wager that despite my strong words, I'm actually in the top-percentile of FFXIII apologists on this planet. I love the battle system, I adore the music, and I'm very fond of the outer posturing of the storyline.*

But what I have no patience for is people claiming that everything was a-okay with that game's level layouts, when we know the game was rushed in 18 months. The linearity of the layouts were beyond anything in AAA gaming, and we know it's because that's an arena they couldn't bulk out in the limited timeframe they have.

I am certain people working at Square Enix would have regrets about that game's layout. It's not their golden ideal vision that we're supposed to regard as the best possible effort. So I do pity fanboys efforts to portray it as perfect. I know FFXIII has good elements, but I don't excuse the places where it clearly falls short.

Yeah, after reading the post mortem it was absolutely clear they didn't intend it to be like that, but just weren't able to overcome the development struggles of the new HD gen and build a vision for the game in all the years of development until they had to make the demo a year before release. They themselves said in the post mortem that there was a "lack of a shared vision" throughout the whole development until the very end. Nobody was proud of it, I'm sure. Actually, Tabata recently also talked about this:

Famitsu: That said, are you saying that Final Fantasy is currently having a sense of crisis?

Hajime Tabata: Yes, there was a sense of crisis. However, there’s been more of that since I’ve taken over. When we decided to advance through with the game as Final Fantasy XV, the reaction from our company, other companies, and especially foreign developers, shared more and more of the sense of “the Final Fantasy IP is in a worse spot than I realized.” After being put in a position of feeling the real heat, I’ve come to realize it as well.


Famitsu: That must’ve been a heavy way to start.

Hajime Tabata: Yes, indeed. However, even with this sense of crisis for the IP, there was also the fact that we haven’t been able able to properly make what we aimed to make. I understand that Final Fantasy XIII also had some rough criticism, but that is not what was aimed for, and I’m sure the objective for it was much higher than that. In the end, it became a title known for being linear. That was not something that was aimed for, but considering the way things were being done, they were not able to break the walls of HD production, and I believe that the truth of the matter is that they simply weren’t able to make a proper landing. If anything, how to break through such a reality was what made it heavy, in that sense. The heaviness of “the Final Fantasy IP is in a tough spot” was at its peak there.​

 

[BocoDragon]

Thanks Koozek. That quote puts it all into context.

FFXIII does have some of the best FF qualities. But it also falls short in some ways, due to its troubled development.

 

[Rappy]

Perhaps I just put much more focus on the combat/gameplay aspects than I do the rest of a game. Which I guess linearity and map/stage/world design can be part of the gameplay, but I don't think of the Final Fantasy series (or most RPGs) when I think of great level design. I get that the design does help for world building and can give a feeling that a different aspect of a game can't give, but in previous FF games they just don't seem to stick out to me, other than aesthetics.

On different characters in a game, it always kind of bugs me when someone is critiquing the story of a game but never include the character interactions or side stories.

About the state of the Final Fantasy series, is that really largely because of XIII? I feel that FFXIV 1.0 is really what got it (and SE as a whole) in that sort of position.

 

[BocoDragon]

Perhaps I just put much more focus on the combat/gameplay aspects than I do the rest of a game. Which I guess linearity and map/stage/world design can be part of the gameplay, but I don't think of the Final Fantasy series (or most RPGs) when I think of great level design. I get that the design does help for world building and can give a feeling that a different aspect of a game can't give, but in previous FF games they just don't seem to stick out to me, other than aesthetics.

On different characters in a game, it always kind of bugs me when someone is critiquing the story of a game but never include the character interactions or side stories.

About the state of the Final Fantasy series, is that really largely because of XIII? I feel that FFXIV 1.0 is really what got it (and SE as a whole) in that sort of position.

FFXIV v1.0 was the second blow, but it wasn't the originator of the worry over the series.

XIII itself was the big story, and it's reflection on SE and Japanese gaming was a big issue in 2010.

 

[Gurish]

Damn going by the previews it's actually going to be a decent game, never believed that any FF other than the remake could be really relevant again.

 

[Rappy]

FFXIV v1.0 was the second blow, but it wasn't the originator of the worry over the series.

XIII itself was the big story, and it's reflection on SE and Japanese gaming was a big issue in 2010.

But that was really just about XIII itself, wasn't it? I haven't researched the subject extensively, but isn't the sheer amount of resources in order to fix FFXIV 1.0 the reason development of other titles were so stifled? Isn't one of the major reasons "the Final Fantasy IP is in a tough spot" because we've only received a bunch of less budget intensive titles and no mainline FF in 6 years? Of course XIII having that reception and being the last mainline (not counting any XIV) in 6 years doesn't help I guess.

 

[CyclopsRock]

FFXIV v1.0 was the second blow, but it wasn't the originator of the worry over the series.

XIII itself was the big story, and it's reflection on SE and Japanese gaming was a big issue in 2010.

Not to mention the sequels doubling down.

 

[BocoDragon]

But that was really just about XIII itself, wasn't it? I haven't researched the subject extensively, but isn't the sheer amount of resources in order to fix FFXIV 1.0 the reason development of other titles were so stifled? Isn't one of the major reasons "the Final Fantasy IP is in a tough spot" because we've only received a bunch of less budget intensive titles and no mainline FF in 6 years? Of course XIII having that reception and being the last mainline (not counting any XIV) in 6 years doesn't help I guess.

I agree that FFs perception is due to a lack of mainline efforts over 6+ years. FFXIV v2 sucking resources was to blame for much of that, but that was years ago.

That FF was left in this half-loved state for a generation of gamers is unfortunate. We're on the cusp of the next big mainline effort. Hopefully FF is back.

 

[LoneliestGhost]

Yeah, after reading the post mortem it was absolutely clear they didn't intend it to be like that, but just weren't able to overcome the development struggles of the new HD gen and build a vision for the game in all the years of development until they had to make the demo a year before release. They themselves said in the post mortem that there was a "lack of a shared vision" throughout the whole development until the very end. Nobody was proud of it, I'm sure. Actually, Tabata recently also talked about this:

Famitsu: That said, are you saying that Final Fantasy is currently having a sense of crisis?

Hajime Tabata: Yes, there was a sense of crisis. However, there’s been more of that since I’ve taken over. When we decided to advance through with the game as Final Fantasy XV, the reaction from our company, other companies, and especially foreign developers, shared more and more of the sense of “the Final Fantasy IP is in a worse spot than I realized.” After being put in a position of feeling the real heat, I’ve come to realize it as well.


Famitsu: That must’ve been a heavy way to start.

Hajime Tabata: Yes, indeed. However, even with this sense of crisis for the IP, there was also the fact that we haven’t been able able to properly make what we aimed to make. I understand that Final Fantasy XIII also had some rough criticism, but that is not what was aimed for, and I’m sure the objective for it was much higher than that. In the end, it became a title known for being linear. That was not something that was aimed for, but considering the way things were being done, they were not able to break the walls of HD production, and I believe that the truth of the matter is that they simply weren’t able to make a proper landing. If anything, how to break through such a reality was what made it heavy, in that sense. The heaviness of “the Final Fantasy IP is in a tough spot” was at its peak there.​

I love the fact that Tabata is super open and honest how deep in the shit the situation of FF currently is. I guess the fact that he's aware of FF13 linearity gives me more hope about FF15's later half linearity.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

What if they removed the ability to fully control the other characters because of what happens to Ignis

 

[Philippo]

Roberto Ferrari just told me on Facebook that Ravus wasn't designed by either him, Nomura or Naora, but by Nobuyoshi Mihara, who left the team in 2012 and is now working on XIV.
Really interesting, as i assumed that he was a Nomura character, hence a big factor in being a relevant character, now i'm not so sure about it lol

Also, he said that he intended Cindy to be less in-your-face hot, and more of an unaware babe with a great brain. Which i guess its not too far from what we've seen of her behaviour.

 

[Ran rp]

an unaware babe with a great brain

....

 

[wmlk]

Wow, hooded guy wasn't designed by Nomura?

 

[DiipuSurotu]

Well he was probably still inspired by Nomura. Ravus' outfit screams Nomura.

 

[NHarmonic.]

I'm sold again, i need this in my veins now...

 

[Ran rp]

Well he was probably still inspired by Nomura. Ravus' outfit screams Nomura.

similar to iris i guess

 

[DiipuSurotu]

similar to iris i guess

Was it confirmed who designed her?

 

[Toth]

Thanks Koozek. That quote puts it all into context.

FFXIII does have some of the best FF qualities. But it also falls short in some ways, due to its troubled development.

Great summary. I agree completely.

Also, the success of the recent mobile FFs should tell you the series is improving agaIn.

 

[Ran rp]

Was it confirmed who designed her?

can't remember if it was ever confirmed, just speculation that she's a newer character

 

[Koozek]

Was it confirmed who designed her?

can't remember if it was ever confirmed, just speculation that she's a newer character

Roberto Ferrari confirmed it on his FB site a few weeks ago:
https://www.facebook.com/RobertoFerrariArt/posts/1185171138221909

 

[Sagely]

Very interesting tidbits about XIII and XIV that I was unaware of as a self-proclaimed "ex fan" of sorts up until recently. From my uninformed perspective it was the XIII trilogy that put Final Fantasy in its bad position (rushed XIII and unwanted sequels) but knowing about how many resources were put into XIV provides so much important context. It gives me more hope that XV will be very good.

 

[Ran rp]

Roberto Ferrari confirmed it on his FB site a few weeks ago:
https://www.facebook.com/RobertoFerrariArt/posts/1185171138221909

thereitis

 

[Gbraga]

Am I reading this wrong or did Tabata just confirmed the game won't have a New Game+? I really hope that's not the case. I love doing NG+ in RPGs where I'm strong as hell and I'm one-shoting every poor soul that comes my way!

Come on Tabata, let me do that in FFXV....

NG+ was confirmed already, so they must be doing it in some way, just not keeping the levels. At least I hope so.

Maybe you get to keep all of your costumes, gear, maybe end-game summon? Option to play as Older Noctis the whole way through, just starting from level 1 again?

Wow, hooded guy wasn't designed by Nomura?

RIP twin "leak" then. If he was originally Noctis' twin, and looking like him was the reason why he was wearing the hood, then he would be a Nomura designed character by default, right? Sure, the outfit could be designed by someone else, but we don't credit the main party's char design to Roen, they're Nomura characters.

 

[AlexFlame116]

Has it been confirmed that Ravus is the Hooded Guy or are we still speculating on that?

 

[Kagari]

For XIII preview events, were they playing the early or late-game stuff?

Assume it was early, but the common thought about the game seems to be that it gets good after 20 hours

People were really high on the demo too.

 

[AlexFlame116]

People were really high on the demo too.

Oh yeah I remember that. People were praising the gameplay and quality of cutscenes. Kinda funny to look back at it now.

 

[Son Of Sparda]

I wouldn't mind the option to keep playing as older Noctis post story or do NG+, if it's not included I am sure it could be patched in.

Well Tabata has already confirmed a new game plus, what it is, I don't think we know yet.

NG+ was confirmed already, so they must be doing it in some way, just not keeping the levels. At least I hope so.

Maybe you get to keep all of your costumes, gear, maybe end-game summon? Option to play as Older Noctis the whole way through, just starting from level 1 again?

Well, it's good to know that there will be a NG+.

Keeping all gears and costumes would be almost as good as having your levels so I hope they at least do that. Speaking of which, weapons and armors aren't tied to your level in this game, are they? Like Witcher 3 for instance that won't let you use better equipment until you reach a certain level. I really hated that in Witcher 3.

 

[theSlacker]

Nope. FFXIII was suffocatingly linear by its own merits. I found it jaw dropping how long they could make you run in a straight line, and at the time I only had the context of years of other FFs and other Japanese games in general. The most charitable comparison you could make is to games like FFX and Lost Odyssey, and those games featured many hubs and towns to run around in, and never set off alarm bells in the way that FFXIII did. There are sections in that game that give you the feeling of running up the endless staircase in Mario 64.

I guess you could compare its linearity to 2D sidescrollers? But no jRPG of any era. Even mostly linear games like Devil May Cry had to-and-fro, door-and-key mechanics that XIII didn't so much as pretend to provide.

In the years after FFXIII when I filled in my knowledge of Bethesda games, I looked back on it even worse. But before I had that wRPG context, it was clearly poor by its own metrics.

It's not GAF. For 6 years the FF brand has been viewed with puzzlement by mainstream gamers who don't at all understand the fuss of those who played the old ones. I talk to people about this series, and younger people whose era is FFXIII don't really get the fuss. Let us hope XV justifies the outdated gushing of us old-time fans.

Yeah this gets it right. Even though I was also into more open games at the time and before/had experience with wrpgs I still enjoyed the "illusion of choice" kind of open that previous Final Fantasies had as well. Yeah there may be only one town you are funneled to but you are normally given some sort of area to "explore", shops to look at, fake choices to make. 13 ironed out all of that in a way that just wasn't enjoyable to me and then when it did open up it was the kind of open that I don't enjoy, an empty wasteland with no other interaction.

 

[LordKasual]

The disdain for XIII is real. Perhaps linearity doesn't bother others as much? It certainly didn't bother me that much and I like XIII over VIII and XII. And this is with context of having played various types of games western or Japanese. Not saying the game is perfect and I'd say it has larger issues than its linearity, but does that mean people can't think the game is good or a decent FF?

You already have people saying XV isn't Final Fantasy. "The combat isn't ATB or turn based." "You only get to control one character." "There's 'mmo' kill quests." "It's open world with open world bloat.".

I don't remember feeling any kind of negative way about FFXIII until the moment I hit Oerba and realized that I had already experienced everything the game had to offer me. Then you realize, you have literally been doing nothing but running, fighting and watching cutscenes. It's at that point i realized that the majority of my excitement of XIII was really just me being carried by my expectations.

In hindsight, no, the game wasn't very good. Not as an RPG, but definitely not as a Final Fantasy game...and not because of some arbitrary standard I have about FF games. From an objective game design perspective, FFXIII is a regression on pretty much everything that existed in the previous entries.

And it's particularly egregious coming directly off FFXII, with a full party control system, AI programming with gambits, an open quest system, giant towns, tons of secrets, weapons, items, spells, characters that can equip any weapon, ect ect.

 

[Aters]

Oh yeah I remember that. People were praising the gameplay and quality of cutscenes. Kinda funny to look back at it now.

Well the game turned out to have great gameplay and some good cutscenes, so it's not like the impressions are wrong. The linearity is the biggest problem, and SE tried to hide it by always showing Chapter 11. I'm pretty sure no one actually expected FFXIII to be that linear until the game came out in Japan.

 

[TheTux]

I enjoy how FFXIII is in every FF thread, some of you love that game much more than you admit to yourselves.

 

[True Fire]

Didn't Toriyama say that XIII was inspired by Call of Duty? I think that says it all.

 

[TheTux]

Didn't Toriyama say that XIII was inspired by Call of Duty? I think that says it all.

There was some context to it. It feels like he only used CoD (to name a random FPS) to explain the game's lack of towns. To say that the game was inspired by CoD is just wrong in my opinion.

"The basic RPG functions are to go into towns, prepare for battle by going to shops, then go out in the field," Toriyama explained. "In that sense, Final Fantasy XIII doesn't have towns or shops—it's more that players are thrown into a story, presented with different situations as they move forward in the field and keep progressing that way."

"In that sense it's more similar to an FPS genre, like Call of Duty," he said. "That's not to say it's an action shooting game at all, so Final Fantasy XIII takes some different aspects of different genres, transcending different types of games."

http://kotaku.com/5470533/final-fan...-of-call-of-duty-card-games--the-toyota-prius

 

[SolVanderlyn]

Well XV is going to be the polar opposite of linear if what we've seen and heard is true. I just hope the "it becomes more linear towards the end" is also true. I don't want the game feeling SO open that it feels like it lacks focus.

I think a level between Witcher 3 (super open) and FFVII (linear with the chance to explore at times) would be ideal

 

[.JayZii]

Well XV is going to be the polar opposite of linear if what we've seen and heard is true. I just hope the "it becomes more linear towards the end" is also true. I don't want the game feeling SO open that it feels like it lacks focus.

I think a level between Witcher 3 (super open) and FFVII (linear with the chance to explore at times) would be ideal

I don't think there's anything to worry about on that front.

 

[AlexFlame116]

I'm pretty sure no one actually expected FFXIII to be that linear until the game came out in Japan.

Sorry that's what I meant in my post. The graphics are great and the gameplay is fun. I believe that cause I've played it haha. It's funny to look back on it now because I remember when websites like GameFAQs and others were reporting that XIII was getting terrible scores at first on Amazon and people were saying that it was just PS3 fan boys who were still bitter about the loss of exclusivity. Then Destructoid's review came in. Then finally people played the game and the environment changed completely. It was crazy.

 

[PshycoNinja]

I remember them being positive.

They were also super short demos and not 15 hours of the game.

 

[Deleted member 20920]

They were also super short demos and not 15 hours of the game.

I believe we did not even know the structure of the game back then. Most assume the playable section shown were dungeons and didn't know there were no towns nor going back to former places. It's different this time, with them being so open to let the press play entire chapters of the game.

 

[The Last One]

I believe we did not even know the structure of the game back then. Most assume the playable section shown were dungeons and didn't know there were no towns nor going back to former places. It's different this time, with them being so open to let the press play entire chapters of the game.

The same thing for the demo. People assumed that only the initial portion of the game would be linear.

 

[Koozek]

Sorry that's what I meant in my post. The graphics are great and the gameplay is fun. I believe that cause I've played it haha. It's funny to look back on it now because I remember when websites like GameFAQs and others were reporting that XIII was getting terrible scores at first on Amazon and people were saying that it was just PS3 fan boys who were still bitter about the loss of exclusivity. Then Destructoid's review came in. Then finally people played the game and the environment changed completely. It was crazy.

Just remembered Jim's follow-up, "objective" review

https://www.destructoid.com/100-objective-review-final-fantasy-xiii-179178.phtml

 

[Hibiki Kurosawa]

They were also super short demos and not 15 hours of the game.

I also assume people were going into a Final Fantasy demo with much more positivity back then than they would now. The previews of XV even talk about the weight the game has on it's shoulders after the rough dev cycle and previous games. People are going into XV with much more caution.

 

[PshycoNinja]

I believe we did not even know the structure of the game back then. Most assume the playable section shown were dungeons and didn't know there were no towns nor going back to former places. It's different this time, with them being so open to let the press play entire chapters of the game.

Not only that, but people who are doing FFXV's previews aren't doing them in a vacuum. They know and played XIII and XIV 1.0. So they also started off playing XV with caution and trepidation. If it was bad, they would let you all know. Dismissing current XV previews because of praise XIII got during previews is just being willfully ignorant. Should we have also dismissed the XIV 2.0 previews that came a month before it launched? (Even though SE flew some out and put them up in hotels for free to play the game...) No, because we knew previewers had context on the XIII/XIV situation. Just like now with XV.

 

[Koozek]

Not only that, but people who are doing FFXV's previews aren't doing them in a vacuum. They know and played XIII and XIV 1.0. So they also started off playing XV with caution and trepidation. If it was bad, they would let you all know. Dismissing current XV previews because of praise XIII got during previews is just being willfully ignorant. Should we have also dismissed the XIV 2.0 previews that came a month before it launched? (Even though SE flew some out and put them up in hotels for free to play the game...) No, because we knew previewers had context on the XIII/XIV situation. Just like now with XV.

Exactly.