Support NeoGAF

[JB1981]

If I were to make some simple edits to this movie I would cut the knightmare sequence and the email scenes involving the justice league. The email scene is made worse because it's placement just kills the pacing. You start to feel the drama amping up right when Supes tells Lois "no one stays good in this world" and the movie cuts to Wonder Woman surfing the web to find out more about the activity downtown and then opens her email? How do you not see how that scene grinds the movie to a halt when what it needed was some heat and forward movement? I might have cut out Lois going to the planet for the chopper and just hard cut to Batman staring up at the sky.

I would also cut the Indian Ocean scene it's not needed.

 

[Bleepey]

If I were to make some simple edits to this movie I would cut the knightmare sequence and the email scenes involving the justice league. The email scene is made worse because it's placement just kills the pacing. You start to feel the drama amping up right when Supes tells Lois "no one stays good in this world" and the movie cuts to Wonder Woman surfing the web to find out more about the activity downtown and then opens her email? How do you not see how that scene grinds the movie to a halt when what it needed was some heat?

I would have had the Cyborg, Flash and Aquaman sequences as post credit scenes. Wonder Woman's is needed whilst the others would have been nice stinger material.

 

[The Cretan]

If I were to make some simple edits to this movie I would cut the knightmare sequence and the email scenes involving the justice league. The email scene is made worse because it's placement just kills the pacing. You start to feel the drama amping up right when Supes tells Lois "no one stays good in this world" and the movie cuts to Wonder Woman surfing the web to find out more about the activity downtown and then opens her email? How do you not see how that scene grinds the movie to a halt when what it needed was some heat?

I wouldn't remove the knightmare sequence, I think it's important, but I would remove Diana watching the emails. They should have added the other heroes in the knightmare sequences.

 

[wachie]

So I'm the person behind this thread, where I wondered how it managed to even get a quarter of the critics to like it. With that out of the way, my opinion on the movie after watching the extended cut.

Movie is a lot better with the UE cut. It fleshes out the sideplots that didnt make sense in the theatrical cut, I wonder if they should have gone through and cut the whole side plots if they wanted to streamline the movie, the theatrical cut is a mess and its neither here or there.

I also liked the OST a whole lot more, especially the score in the credits. I think thats the best opening/credits in the superhero movie so far. The only thing that didnt grow on me was the WW theme, it just doesnt feel right to me. I also dont think it fits well with the Batman and Superman themes.

After watching the movie, I'll put it above the regular Marvel fare, including CW. On my first viewing I liked that the movie was at least different but that was different and shitty. It's now different and good, that I would put it above CW. Also appreciate some of the minor things that I caught that I didnt on my first viewing - full credit to Snyder. The film does have its flaws though, hopefully they dont repeat the same flaws in JL.

 

[Lord Virgin]

I was really looking forward to having the Injustice/Mad Max Justice League movie in the future. But seeing the reception to this and the recent set visit reports....not happening. Would have been so cool and really something different.

 

[Hystzen]

What's hilarious is that Veelk is on top of wall of shame with most posts in thread by a good amount. Go get some fresh air


UC fixes some my issues about how choppy the film looked in the TC

 

[brochiller]

So I'm the person behind this thread, where I wondered how it managed to even get a quarter of the critics to like it. With that out of the way, my opinion on the movie after watching the extended cut.

Movie is a lot better with the UE cut. It fleshes out the sideplots that didnt make sense in the theatrical cut, I wonder if they should have gone through and cut the whole side plots if they wanted to streamline the movie, the theatrical cut is a mess and its neither here or there.

I also liked the OST a whole lot more, especially the score in the credits. I think thats the best opening/credits in the superhero movie so far. The only thing that didnt grow on me was the WW theme, it just doesnt feel right to me. I also dont think it fits well with the Batman and Superman themes.

After watching the movie, I'll put it above the regular Marvel fare, including CW. On my first viewing I liked that the movie was at least different but that was different and shitty. It's now different and good, that I would put it above CW. Also appreciate some of the minor things that I caught that I didnt on my first viewing - full credit to Snyder. The film does have its flaws though, hopefully they dont repeat the same flaws in JL.

Cool to hear the theatrical version didn't taint the enjoyment of the UC for you.

I need that entire end credits score though. Anybody know where to find it?

 

[MegaManTrigger]

Do you think you can't have an idea in your head for more than a year or something?

Bruce is reflecting on a past dream of his. Back then he believed that being Batman would be his salvation, but in the end it wound up ruining him.

I'm not disputing that Batman is reflecting on his 20 year career. I'm disputing what the person interpreted the Wayne deaths as. It's not about having one idea, it's about consistency: if the Wayne deaths truly represented lack of faith in humanity, and hopelessness, then why would Batman be created? Batman was created to spark Gotham into action and fight back against crime and corruption with the idea that Gotham would be a much better place to live in. That's not "hopelessness" or "lack of humanity" personified, if anything, it's the contrary.

 

[DeathyBoy]

I'm not disputing that Batman is reflecting on his 20 year career. I'm disputing what the person interpreted the Wayne deaths as. It's not about having one idea, it's about consistency: if the Wayne deaths truly represented lack of faith in humanity, and hopelessness, then why would Batman be created? Batman was created to spark Gotham into action and fight back against crime and corruption with the idea that Gotham would be a much better place to live in. That's not "hopelessness" or "lack of humanity" personified, if anything, it's the contrary.

The film implies he gave up on being Batman, and then MOS made him return angrier. It's a long life of shit that made him give up on humanity.

 

[JB1981]

The film implies he gave up on being Batman, and then MOS made him return angrier. It's a long life of shit that made him give up on humanity.

The film givesa lot of information about the story thru images and in incidental detail rather than exposition, which I think people are overlooking.

 

[ugoo18]

So I'm the person behind this thread, where I wondered how it managed to even get a quarter of the critics to like it. With that out of the way, my opinion on the movie after watching the extended cut.

Movie is a lot better with the UE cut. It fleshes out the sideplots that didnt make sense in the theatrical cut, I wonder if they should have gone through and cut the whole side plots if they wanted to streamline the movie, the theatrical cut is a mess and its neither here or there.

I also liked the OST a whole lot more, especially the score in the credits. I think thats the best opening/credits in the superhero movie so far. The only thing that didnt grow on me was the WW theme, it just doesnt feel right to me. I also dont think it fits well with the Batman and Superman themes.

After watching the movie, I'll put it above the regular Marvel fare, including CW. On my first viewing I liked that the movie was at least different but that was different and shitty. It's now different and good, that I would put it above CW. Also appreciate some of the minor things that I caught that I didnt on my first viewing - full credit to Snyder. The film does have its flaws though, hopefully they dont repeat the same flaws in JL.

After watching this recently myself i definitely do agree with this. I don't know what it is about Civil War, maybe its stakes or Marvel's general more light-hearted approach but i never felt that things were getting truly desperate or serious. Winter Soldier (A movie i found to be far better than Civil War) did a better job of selling that for me, i'd say X-Men Apocalypse also did that better than Civil War. For example when the team was being shown the death counts of Avengers 1, Age of Ultron and Winter Soldier i couldn't take that seriously simply because what i saw and the supposed death counts were wildly at odds, 74 dead in Avengers 1 during an alien invasion in the middle of New York.... That's borderline impossible especially with some of the stuff the team itself was doing to take down those leviathans.

Now had New York suffered the kind of collateral damage (And probable high death count) Metropolis suffered in Man of Steel then they would be right to start asking questions and even perhaps attempting to shackle them as in Civil War. 74 deaths to stop an alien invasion vs possible enslavement and annihilation, 23 deaths to stop falling Helicarriers in Washington DC vs potentially eternal judge/jury/executioner style monitoring, 177 deaths to stop a falling city with a plethora of robotic enemies attacking vs potential enslavement at the hands of Ultron hardly comes across as massive red flags of worry.

I guess basically i'm saying this and to a greater extent DCs Snyder based approach has done a far better job of selling the sheer power behind these super powered beings and the result of that power clashing vs Marvel's (Particularly Civil War) approach thats weakened the heavy hitters to such amount to the point where the stakes feel questionable.

Despite this film's flaws i'd say the UC of this is my favorite superhero film so far this year.

 

[Doctor Bat]

I just finished the Ultimate Edition cut after never seeing the film before and I can't even imagine how confusing that must've felt in theatres. It's just the right kind of terrible, in that I feel the disappointment deep in my soul. I can't think of anything here that justifies a 180m runtime.

 

[Veelk]

I'm not disputing that Batman is reflecting on his 20 year career. I'm disputing what the person interpreted the Wayne deaths as. It's not about having one idea, it's about consistency: if the Wayne deaths truly represented lack of faith in humanity, and hopelessness, then why would Batman be created? Batman was created to spark Gotham into action and fight back against crime and corruption with the idea that Gotham would be a much better place to live in. That's not "hopelessness" or "lack of humanity" personified, if anything, it's the contrary.

It's pretty nihilistic, I think. If his parents death means nothing, and he became batman out of that, then he really did just do so so he could hurt the people he went up against while knowing it did nothing to actually help anyone. It makes it sound like he only became batman out of spite.

It unfortunately fits with some of the movies dialogue too. Bruce is partially going after superman to protect "his legacy" because with him around, everything he did was meaningless. All those lives he saved over the course of his career, all the people he helped, (assuming he did so) they don't mean anything to him apparently.

If Snyder is such a talentless hack then why is it that the Arkham games though released in 2009 to widespread critical acclaim, did you personal Lord and saviour Christopwr Nolan.not to rip them off.

Are you asking me why someone supposedly talented would choose not to rip another work off? Because talented people don't do that?

Though Nolan's talents certainly don't lie in making fight scenes, I'll give you that. Whether it's better to have an original but crappy fight scene vs a decent but derivative one is up to the individual.

What's hilarious is that Veelk is on top of wall of shame with most posts in thread by a good amount. Go get some fresh air

It's not even the first time this sort of thing has happened to me either.

As someone else said "Veelk likes to talk. It is known"

 

[Ferr986]

I'm curious to watch this cut because I don't think the TC was THAT bad (it had a lots of problems though).

But fuck being a 3hours movie, so fucking tired of this long ass movies.

Especially superheroes movies, when they're this long it tends to be because of unjustified bloat. And this one was already bloated in the TC.

 

[Bleepey]

It's pretty nihilistic, I think. If his parents death means nothing, and he became batman out of that, then he really did just do so so he could hurt the people he went up against while knowing it did nothing to actually help anyone. It makes it sound like he only became batman out of spite.

It unfortunately fits with some of the movies dialogue too. Bruce is partially going after superman to protect "his legacy" because with him around, everything he did was meaningless. All those lives he saved over the course of his career, all the people he helped, (assuming he did so) they don't mean anything to him apparently.



Are you asking me why someone supposedly talented would choose not to rip another work off? Because talented people don't do that?

Though Nolan's talents certainly don't lie in making fight scenes, I'll give you that. Whether it's better to have an original but crappy fight scene vs a decent but derivative one is up to the individual.

Nolan:

Snyder:

Truly the Sophie's choice of our time.

 

[Veelk]

Nolan:

Rocksteady:

Truly the Sophie's choice of our time.

Fixed

 

[Tabby]

I'm curious to watch this cut because I don't think the TC was THAT bad (it had a lots of problems though).

But fuck being a 3hours movie, so fucking tired of this long ass movies.

Especially superheroes movies, when they're this long it tends to be because of unjustified bloat. And this one was already bloated in the TC.

The pacing is so much better. Didn't feel like 3 hours to me.

 

[Kenzodielocke]

Fixed

What is even your point? Even if it's just a copy, it still takes a lot of effort to bring this on the big screen.

 

[brochiller]

Fixed

You're right. CBM shouldn't take inspirations from anywhere. In fact, why make them at all? If we can't take inspiration from a video game maybe we just shouldn't take inspirations from comic books themselves either.

 

[Smokey_Run]

Fixed

I thought this was the hill you weren't going to die on? Yet, here we are pages later.

 

[Veelk]

What is even your point? Even if it's just a copy, it still takes a lot of effort to bring this on the big screen.

Technically, sure. Creatively, not as much. That's my point and it's been my only point since this whole thing started.

I thought this was the hill you weren't going to die on? Yet, here we are pages later.

True. I don't really have much of an excuse except that I don't like to see bad arguments against me not refuted.

 

[Ahasverus]

What I want to know is how much of these scenes were put in after the movies release to deal with critiques and how many were cut by the studio in editing against Snyder's wishes.

This cut was rated back in October, it's not reactionary, it was always posed to come out. Not this soon, I presume.

So I'm the person behind this thread, where I wondered how it managed to even get a quarter of the critics to like it. With that out of the way, my opinion on the movie after watching the extended cut.

Movie is a lot better with the UE cut.

This is cool!

 

[Lord Virgin]

Technically, sure. Creatively, not as much. That's my point and it's been my only point since this whole thing started.



True. I don't really have much of an excuse except that I don't like to see bad arguments against me not refuted.

What do you mean creatively? They still had to come up with the choreography, how to setup the shots, how Batman would move, counter attacks etc.

 

[Veelk]

What do you mean creatively? They still had to come up with the choreography, how to setup the shots, how Batman would move, counter attacks etc.

No, they didn't.

"How do we make batman move and fight?" "like in the games"

 

[Alienfan]

Boy, just got done with the film, not awful by any stretch, but definitely not good either. Superman and wonder woman are both just very lame characters, and I don't think that's the films fault either. Batman seemed like an idiot in this movie also, which I have no idea how you would fuck up a batman story at this point, but whatever. Film was a mess, motivations weren't conveyed well enough and just left me confused, plus what should have been more emotional moments came across as comedy. Oh and the fight scenes looked like something out of that injustice fighting game, except somehow the animations looked even more ridiculous.

Actually I'm changing my mind, this movie was awful.

Spoiler

might have been able to forgive the film if they'd just kept superman dead

They should've cut down the first hour. It was incredibly boring. The last two hour was good.

I actually thought the opposite, first hour or so actually showed the most promise.

 

[Doctor Bat]

Wonder Woman in this film is more plain than the top and bottom of a Custard Creme.

 

[IconGrist]

Don't engage Veelk. He knows his argument is bad. It's the equivalent of saying Snyder is creatively bankrupt because Snyder Batman looks like Batman. It's a stupid argument and it boggles my mind why he won't let it go. Just being stubborn I guess.

 

[Veelk]

Don't engage Veelk. He knows his argument is bad. It's the equivalent of saying Snyder is creatively bankrupt because Snyder Batman looks like Batman. It's a stupid argument and it boggles my mind why he won't let it go. Just being stubborn I guess.

And I guess you're just dumb for not getting it, if we're resorting to insults here. Nothing I hate more than the "U NO UR RONG" bullshit. It's a statement that denigrates both my intelligence and my intentions. I've given reasons why I feel this goes beyond merely taking basic elements of all Batman incarnations. Disagree with me all you want, but fuck off with this disingenuous bullshit.

 

[LionPride]

No, they didn't.

"How do we make batman move and fight?" "like in the games"

...who hurt you

 

[IconGrist]

And I guess you're just dumb for not getting it, if we're resorting to insults here. Nothing I hate more than the "U NO UR RONG" bullshit. It's a statement that denigrates both my intelligence and my intentions. I've given reasons why I feel this goes beyond merely taking basic elements of all Batman incarnations. Disagree with me all you want, but fuck off with this disingenuous bullshit.

The key difference here is I insulted your argument while you insulted me. I made no personal attack against you as a person nor did I imply you lack intelligence. But you're not a stranger to this type of behavior since you've insulted me before. "Douche canoe" I believe it was.

 

[Veelk]

The key difference here is I insulted your argument while you insulted me. I made no personal attack against you as a person nor did I imply you lack intelligence. But you're not a stranger to this type of behavior since you've insulted me before. "Douche canoe" I believe it was.

No, "He knows his argument is bad" and yet keeps pushing because I'm "Just being stubborn", puts the spotlight on me for being intellectually dishonest. That's going after my person. Which is what annoys me about talking to you. You misinterpret things from how they actually are. Even after I literally explain in the last post how a statement like the one you made denigrates me personally, you claim to have not gone after me personally.

 

[obin_gam]

No, they didn't.

"How do we make batman move and fight?" "like in the games"

What's the problem exactly? Whoever thought of using the game choreography was a genius. Why? Because it looks cool as fuck, and in the end, isnt that the main point of movie fights?

 

[Veelk]

What's the problem exactly? Whoever thought of using the game choreography was a genius. Why? Because it looks cool as fuck, and in the end, isnt that the main point of movie fights?

I feel it is lacking in creativity. That's my issue. If you feel that's an acceptable sacrifice for having good choreography, that's fine. I've been saying that's fine this whole thread.

 

[Dahbomb]

Ragging on the Batman fight scene choreography is some low level critique.

Bringing a VIDEO GAME action sequence on live action and have it not be a CG/wire foo non sense is an astounding achievement. Name me one sequence in a live action movie that ripped action from a video game and had it look that good. I would pay BIG MONEY for someone to put DMC3 action scenes on live action without it looking completely silly.

There isn't anything creative about the fight choreography in the Nolan movies either... they are just overall vastly inferior in every way possible. You have to suspend your disbelief greatly if you think that Batman could take on multiple goons at once, dude barely seems like he can move around in the suit.

 

[Jonogunn]

What I like about this batman fight scenes and daredevil fight scenes is hey make the fights so gritty is more believable that these larger than life non-superpowered brings can take on several men at once. And unlike say black widow in avengers or green arrow they actually do get their asses beat too which really adds to the grittiness and shows the wear and tear grind of being a normal human crime fighter.

A great subtle touch in batman's fight scene was when a guy tried to cut his neck with a knife but his cowl protected him from it and when he got stabbed and grunted.

in daredevil they show him get beat up and tired and everything which is nice.

In arrow they go through hence men's like butter and then are all 100% okay when back at base.

The little things make such a big difference

 

[Dahbomb]

Pretty much every major hand to hand combat in a Hollywood movie is some derivative of a superior sequence in an Asian martial arts movie. Nothing in either Civil War or BvS or Winter Soldier will touch something like the action scenes in The Raid.

In fact, taking cues from a video game (especially one based on the same IP) is more "original" than copying older martial arts movies.

 

[Veelk]

Ragging on the Batman fight scene choreography is some low level critique.

I completely agree. But it is a low level critique that is all the same valid. I stated many times before that this is one of the smallest problems I had with the movie. I don't care that much that it is a rip off, I just acknowledge that it is, in fact, a rip off. That is all I'm saying.

It's everyone else who is claiming that I consider this the death knell of the movie and won't let it go.

There isn't anything creative about the fight choreography in the Nolan movies either... they are just overall vastly inferior in every way possible. You have to suspend your disbelief greatly if you think that Batman could take on multiple goons at once, dude barely seems like he can move around in the suit.

And this isn't any part of any argument I was making. I never propped Nolan's fight scenes as favorable in comparison.

 

[Gordon Shumway]

They were thinking about how many screenings they could reasonably have per theatre

Yet they'd likely would have had better word of mouth/made more money with this cut..priorities, I guess.

 

[Dahbomb]

So you don't give props to the stuntsmen, the camerawork, the editing and sound design of the fight scene? That's way more important than where the fight scene came from... it's a dismissive and narrow minded critique which is why it just falls more into "hating for the sake of hating" than actual critique. And why people can't take you seriously on here because they just think you are doing it on purpose.

Also you should go to the Berserk anime thread and critique that, I await that analysis.

 

[The Adder]

I feel it is lacking in creativity. That's my issue. If you feel that's an acceptable sacrifice for having good choreography, that's fine. I've been saying that's fine this whole thread.

What is creative about Nolan's choreography.

In BvS, Bruce may move similarly (let me get home and I'll break down why saying it's the same is entirely wrong), but there is a creativity in how the scene was built. It's a Rube Goldberg machine of violence.

Nolan's is literally "One punch that guy. One kick the next guy. Elbow the third guy."

 

[Bleepey]

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/good-bad-flicks/10111-Exploring-Ben-Affleck-Daredevil

I am seriously surprised at how the comparison of DD's DC and TC could be copied nad pasted to BVS

 

[Veelk]

So you don't give props to the stuntsmen, the camerawork, the editing and sound design of the fight scene? That's way more important than where the fight scene came from... it's a dismissive and narrow minded critique which is why it just falls more into "hating for the sake of hating" than actual critique. And why people can't take you seriously on here because they just think you are doing it on purpose.

I don't give props to Snyder for coming up with it. Again, the lack of creativity is the only aspect I'm actually criticising. I've acknowledged that it would require technical skill to bring it to life. It's just so clearly lifted from the arkham games, I don't see much going for it in terms of inventiveness.

Anyway, I can't help much about that. I'm okay with people disagreeing with me. I just wish they didn't doubt my authenticity about it.

Also you should go to the Berserk anime thread and critique that, I await that analysis.

*shrug*

Maybe later. I never really cared much about Berserk adaptations except videogames. I discussed the movies here and there, but I got the manga, and that's pretty much enough for me.

 

[Dahbomb]

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/good-bad-flicks/10111-Exploring-Ben-Affleck-Daredevil

I am seriously surprised at how the comparison of DD's DC and TC could be copied nad pasted to BVS

The Ben Affleck curse strikes again.

 

[GAMEPROFF]

Nolan:

Snyder:

Truly the Sophie's choice of our time.

Thanks for posting the worst of the worst from Nolan against the best of the best from Snyder.

 

[LosDaddie]

Truly the Sophie's choice of our time.

I'm glad this issue was brought up.

Someone needs to make a few GIFs of the Knightmare where Bats is fighting Supes' soldiers. GIF the parts, and there are multiple, of the soldiers swinging their guns at Batman.

Do that, and tell me Snyder's fight scenes are leagues above Nolan.

 

[Magwik]

Fixed

You're right, Snyder should be taking inspiration from the TV-Verse instead

 

[itwasTuesday]

So Vudu has no commentary tracks? And bonus clips only work on pc? Sigh, start telling the truth vudu advertising. please.

 

[Dahbomb]

Thanks for posting the worst of the worst from Nolan against the best of the best from Snyder.

Well that's actually not Snyder's best, his best is still that one shot slow motion sequence of Leonidas in 300.

Also the Knightmare sequence has some choreography issues for sure but it's easier to excuse that because it was all done in pseudo one shot. Those are always hard to do. Not like Nolan scenes where they have bad editing, cuts, camera work AND choreography.


The worst Nolan Batman fight scene is at the end of Begins when Batman is fighting those ninjas, his best ones are the fight on the ice ring and the prison fight in Batman Begins. At least you can see what's going in the latter.

 

[Alienous]

I'm glad this issue was brought up.

Someone needs to make a few GIFs of the Knightmare where Bats is fighting Supes' soldiers. GIF the parts, and there are multiple, of the soldiers swinging their guns at Batman.

Do that, and tell me Snyder's fight scenes are leagues above Nolan.

There's a sloppiness allowance when you're trying to get a shot without a cut, and that Knightmare sequence is a complicated one.

 

[Bleepey]

Thanks for posting the worst of the worst from Nolan against the best of the best from Snyder.

Please, show me the stand out Nolan fight scenes. I'll be waiting with a book.