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[efyu_lemonardo]

Let's say they build shelters. Wouldn't Israels next thought be, that they shipping weapons and meetings into these shelters? Wouldn't that maybe even be what happens?
That aside, its worth as much to show the world whats happening. When Shelters help, but only temporarily, since they won't stop Israel. What can stop them, is the world.

I also don't say that your statements are wrong. I just say there could be something else involved.

The point I'm trying to make is that there is very little evidence that Hamas cares more about its own people (the same people that elected Hamas) than it does about continuing this war. I'm not trying to justify any actions that delay the end of this crisis on either side, but the minimum you should expect from any government in any country is to at least prioritize the well being of its own citizens above damages done to enemies of the government. In fact I'd go as far as saying any organization that doesn't act according to these priorities isn't a real government.

 

[Chariot]

The point I'm trying to make is that there is very little evidence that Hamas cares more about its own people (the same people that elected Hamas) than it does about continuing this war. I'm not trying to justify any actions that delay the end of this crisis on either side, but the minimum you should expect from any government in any country is to at least prioritize the well being of its own citizens above damages done to enemies of the government. In fact I'd go as far as saying any organization that doesn't act according to these priorities isn't a real government.

Yes, but the solution can't be to just bomb everyone. We all know that the Hamas are shit, but that still does not excuse killing innocents by Israelis in my eyes. See the flaw in "the Hamas don't care about our innocents, so we don't care about palestina innocents"?

 

[Partial Gamification]

The point I'm trying to make is that there is very little evidence that Hamas cares more about its own people (the same people that elected Hamas) than it does about continuing this war. I'm not trying to justify any actions that delay the end of this crisis on either side, but the minimum you should expect from any government in any country is to at least prioritize the well being of its own citizens above damages done to enemies of the government. In fact I'd go as far as saying any organization that doesn't act according to these priorities isn't a real government.

Hamas isn't the government of the Palestinian State, it has a political and military wing. The extreme parties in Knesset do not represent all Israelis.

The militant wing of Hamas could be seen inadvertently holding the Palestinian population hostage, even if many are willing hostages.

 

[deanfrag]

the IDF and many supporters deem it acceptable that they bomb an entire building with the hopes of killing one hamas soldier or weapons stash. There are no official reports proving these weapons were there or that soldiers where hiding there.

Let me continue my example, so you hear a warning bomb while you are in your house and the house is shaking because of the impact. Ever think about what must be going on in the heads of these civilians after they receive this polite warning from the IDF? How would you feel and keep your composure if you got evicted from your house with less than a minute to get your stuff sorted out and together, because you risk being blasted to pieces if you don't hurry. Many families live on a shity monthly budget, hell some people dont even have a house or money for food except their house or a shelter. Where would they go after the destruction of their house? Live on the street like rats?

Dude, me and a third of Israel have 15 seconds to run away to the shelter before the rocket hits. usually the rocket doesnt hit since we have Iron Dome but you cant take any chances. So believe me when I say that 1 full minute is more then enough to run for your life.

 

[danwarb]

The point I'm trying to make is that there is very little evidence that Hamas cares more about its own people (the same people that elected Hamas) than it does about continuing this war. I'm not trying to justify any actions that delay the end of this crisis on either side, but the minimum you should expect from any government in any country is to at least prioritize the well being of its own citizens above damages done to enemies of the government. In fact I'd go as far as saying any organization that doesn't act according to these priorities isn't a real government.

No government is a real government then. People react as we'd expect them to react. There is always resistance to occupation.

Dude, me and a third of Israel have 15 seconds to run away to the shelter before the rocket hits. usually the rocket doesnt hit since we have Iron Dome but you cant take any chances. So believe me when I say that 1 full minute is more then enough to run for your life.

Of course it's scary to face rocket attacks that can do real damage and kill people, but there's a big difference between those shitty rockets and the bombs dropping on Palestinians.

~133 Palestinians have been killed since Israel began its operation five days ago. Israel has been hit by over 40 rockets since Friday, suffering damage. This is generally how it goes. There's little concern for civilians if this is the course Israel pursue. Perpetual revenge killings are not the solution.

 

[Beaulieu]

Dude, me and a third of Israel have 15 seconds to run away to the shelter before the rocket hits. usually the rocket doesnt hit since we have Iron Dome but you cant take any chances. So believe me when I say that 1 full minute is more then enough to run for your life.

great logic there buddy

 

[Chariot]

Dude, me and a third of Israel have 15 seconds to run away to the shelter before the rocket hits. usually the rocket doesnt hit since we have Iron Dome but you cant take any chances. So believe me when I say that 1 full minute is more then enough to run for your life.

What about when you're - say - a disabled person in a wheelchair or a nurse with the duty to protect and hlep disabled patients?

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

Yes, but the solution can't be to just bomb everyone. We all know that the Hamas are shit, but that still does not excuse killing innocents by Israelis in my eyes. See the flaw in "the Hamas don't care about our innocents, so we don't care about palestina innocents"?

First of all, the appropriate equivalence isn't "Hamas don't care about Israeli innocents, so Israel shouldn't care about Palestinian innocents". At the very least it should be: "Hamas don't care about their own (i.e Palestinian) innocents any more than the Israeli government cares about Palestinian innocents."

Secondly, I do in fact believe an argument can be made (and supported) that the Israeli govt. and IDF do care about Palestinian innocents. They care enough to give early warnings via phone calls and do minimal damage warning strikes as seen in this thread.

Therefor I argue that civilian casualties on the Palestinian side are at least as much a result of Hamas' indifference as they are a result of failure to act more carefully on the part of the IDF.

The militant wing of Hamas could be seen inadvertently holding the Palestinian population hostage, even if many are willing hostages.

This is the point I'm trying to make.

 

[LNBL]

The point I'm trying to make is that there is very little evidence that Hamas cares more about its own people (the same people that elected Hamas) than it does about continuing this war. I'm not trying to justify any actions that delay the end of this crisis on either side, but the minimum you should expect from any government in any country is to at least prioritize the well being of its own citizens above damages done to enemies of the government. In fact I'd go as far as saying any organization that doesn't act according to these priorities isn't a real government.

There is evidence if you care to search for it.

Hamas is particularly popular among Palestinians in the Gaza Strip, though it also has a following in the West Bank, and to a lesser extent in other Middle Eastern countries. Its popularity stems in part from its welfare wing providing social services to Palestinians in the occupied territories. Such services are not generally provided by the Palestinian Authority. Israeli scholar Reuven Paz estimates that 90% of Hamas activities revolve around "social, welfare, cultural, and educational activities". Social services include running relief programs and funding schools, orphanages, mosques, healthcare clinics, soup kitchens, and sports leagues.

"Using Israeli estimates, [Matthew Levitt, senior fellow at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy] reckons Hamas probably has an annual budget of between $70m and $90m, 80 to 85 per cent of which it spends on its political work and its extensive networks of schools, clinics and welfare organisations, while 15 to 20 per cent goes on military operations."

In particular, Hamas funded health services where people could receive free or inexpensive medical treatment. Hamas greatly contributed to the health sector, and facilitated hospital and physician services in the Palestinian territory. On the other hand, Hamas's use of hospitals is sometimes criticised as purportedly serving the promotion of violence against Israel.[56] Charities affiliated with Hamas are known to financially support families of those who have been killed or imprisoned while carrying out militant actions or supporting such actions. Families typically receive a one time grant of $500 to $5,000, and those whose homes have been destroyed by the Israel Defense Forces have their rent paid for temporary housing. Families of militants not affiliated with Hamas sometimes receive less.[57]

Hamas has funded education and built Islamic charities, libraries, mosques and education centers for women. They also built nurseries, kindergartens and supervised religious schools that provide free meals to children. When children attend their schools and mosques, parents are required to sign oaths of allegiance. Refugees, as well as those left without homes, are able to claim financial and technical assistance from Hamas.[58]

The work of Hamas in these fields supplements that provided by the United Nations Relief Works Agency (UNRWA). Hamas is also well regarded by Palestinians for its efficiency and perceived lack of corruption compared to Fatah.[59] Since the 2008–2009 Israeli military operation in Gaza, Palestinian public opinion polls have shown Hamas steadily increasing in popularity with 52% support compared to 13% for Fatah. All public opinion surveys conducted recently have supported this trend.[60]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas

 

[deanfrag]

great logic there buddy

Sorry, my bad. only a small area have 15 seconds to run away.
Other areas have 30 seconds/45 seconds and 60 seconds to run away.
I live in the 15 seconds part.

What about when you're - say - a disabled person in a wheelchair or a nurse with the duty to protect and hlep disabled patients?

What exactly do you want me to say?

 

[LNBL]

Dude, me and a third of Israel have 15 seconds to run away to the shelter before the rocket hits. usually the rocket doesnt hit since we have Iron Dome but you cant take any chances. So believe me when I say that 1 full minute is more then enough to run for your life.

You still don't seem to get the point that i'm trying to make. I was talking about people that use the warnings as an excuse which would justify the killing of civilians.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

No government is a real government then. People react as we'd expect them to react. There is always resistance to occupation.


Of course it's scary to face rocket attacks that can do real damage and kill people, but there's a big difference between those shitty rockets and the bombs dropping on Palestinians.

~133 Palestinians have been killed since Israel began its operation five days ago. Israel has been hit by over 40 rockets since Friday, suffering damage. This is generally how it goes. There's little concern for civilians if this is the course Israel pursue. Perpetual revenge killings are not the solution.

Those shitty rockets do cause houses to collapse and gas stations full of cars to explode, you know. During this current conflict a family of nine survived the collapse of their home only because they were quick enough to get into a shelter within 60 seconds. Had they taken their time, they probably wouldn't have survived. As for the gas station, that didn't end in tens of casualties due to a combination of caution on the part of local citizens (who usually come out in large numbers to refuel their vehicles during the time the strike occurred) and pure dumb luck! (the driver of a gas tanker at the station happened to be away, and the few other people at the gas station only suffered major burns all over their body and doctors were able to stabilize them).

There are more examples of these occurrences from the past week if you're interested, and caution and diligence on part of the Israeli population play a huge part in minimizing casualties and injuries.

There is evidence if you care to search for it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas

Hamas spends a lot of its money on services and welfare, yet encourages civilians to stay indoors during IAF bombings... To me that still does not paint a picture of an organization that has a sufficient level of respect for the lives of its constituents.

 

[deanfrag]

You still don't seem to get the point that i'm trying to make. I was talking about people that use the warnings as an excuse which would justify the killing of civilians.

Well, to some people its not an excuse.

 

[LNBL]

Well, to some people its not an excuse.

Meaning what?

Those shitty rockets do cause houses to collapse and gas stations full of cars to explode, you know. During this current conflict a family of nine survived the collapse of their home only because they were quick enough to get into a shelter within 60 seconds. Had they taken their time, they probably wouldn't have survived. As for the gas station, that didn't end in tens of casualties due to a combination of caution on the part of local citizens (who usually come out in large numbers to refuel their vehicles during the time the strike occurred) and pure dumb luck! (the driver of a gas tanker at the station happened to be away, and the few other people at the gas station only suffered major burns all over their body and doctors were able to stabilize them).

There are more examples of these occurrences from the past week if you're interested, and caution and diligence on part of the Israeli population play a huge part in minimizing casualties and injuries.



Hamas spends a lot of its money on services and welfare, yet encourages civilians to stay indoors during IAF bombings... To me that still does not paint a picture of an organization that has a sufficient level of respect for the lives of its constituents.

Source? You try to turn around the blame and put it solely on Hamas, you have been bringing up the argument of Hamas not doing anything or caring enough for the people. I have given you substantial amount of text that explains exactly that they do, yet you wave that off by bringing in the claim that they encourage people to stay inside. The IDF is still responsible for killing those people like it or not, no matter how you turn this thing around.

 

[Chariot]

What exactly do you want me to say?

I dunno.
"No, a disabled person is probably not able to escape within a minute." or "Yeah, sure, if they roll fast enough, no problem." or "What did the disabled even doing there."
Something. The bombing of the center for disabled still happened and Israel has still not given out a reason why that was a target.

 

[zeroOman]

Just think for a second. How did they know that particular house was being targeted? The camera even captured the roof-knock warning, so that couldn't have been the reason.

Maybe they knew it was coming, because they were launching rockets from that location, or were stockpiling weapons in the building.

NO they have phone the family about the bomb... it's just why did he fuk the house of this Family ????

if u want to know why here read this

 

[deanfrag]

Meaning what?

When someone tells you "you have 1 minute to leave your house, its going to be destryed", why on earth would you stay inside? I mean, why die a horrible death for nothing? I really feel bad for them but you have to wonder, but the hell is keeping them inside?

You say its just an excuse to kill them, is it?

I dunno.
"No, a disabled person is probably not able to escape within a minute." or "Yeah, sure, if they roll fast enough, no problem." or "What did the disabled even doing there."
Something. The bombing of the center for disabled still happened and Israel has still not given out a reason why that was a target.

I never even heard of it (disabled person getting killed), give me a source so I can know what you're talking about.

 

[Chumly]

I want to know how IDF has managed to convince people that this "warning" system is somehow acceptable and its tough luck if women and children don't get out in time. Basically everyone supporting this openly admits that Israel knows its bombing buildings with women and children but its ok because they place a phone call or drop sound bombs. I mean what is the point of even bombing the building if they are giving the residents a chance to escape. Clearly it isn't to kill Hamas since they give them time to get away. That means the only point is to inflict collective punishment on the Palestinian people which would be considered War crimes if it was anyone but Israel.

 

[LNBL]

When someone tells you "you have 1 minute to leave your house, its going to be destryed", why on earth would you stay inside? I mean, why die a horrible death for nothing? I really feel bad for them but you have to wonder, but the hell is keeping them inside?

You say its just an excuse to kill them, is it?

I said, as you can read back in this thread, that people are protecting the IDF and their actions by saying that the civilians had been warned beforehand. In other words they were warned and got killed anyways, it's their own fault. But in reality it is not that easy, you make leaving your house sound very easy, because Israeli people can use bomb shelters. Where do Palestinian people run to? They have no shelters and the next place they decide to stay might get bombed an hour or a day later.

 

[Forsete]

Hamas apparently is warning of a "massive" rocket attack against Tel Aviv in just a few minutes.

 

[freakzilla149]

I like how IDF names their military assaults as reflection of their might, when in reality they are simply raining down missiles on an impoverished, poverty stricken open-air prison.

This is exactly how I see it, but it seems Reddit has been completely taken over by astroturfers, there is such an overwhelming support for Israel, as if Hamas is just another terrorist organisation.

What else are Palestinians supposed to do? Their home will be taken from them one way or another, it's just a matter of time.

I said, as you can read back in this thread, that people are protecting the IDF and their actions by saying that the civilians had been warned beforehand. In other words they were warned and got killed anyways, it's their own fault. But in reality it is not that easy, you make leaving your house sound very easy, because Israeli people can use bomb shelters. Where do Palestinian people run to? They have no shelters and the next place they decide to stay might get bombed an hour or a day later.

Exactly, and is it fair to expect them to leave their home to be destroyed by an Israeli bomb? Should they just live on the streets for however many years it takes to rebuild their homes thanks to Israeli embargo on construction materials.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

Source? You try to turn around the blame and put it solely on Hamas, you have been bringing up the argument of Hamas not doing anything or caring enough for the people. I have given you substantial amount of text that explains exactly that they do, yet you wave that off by bringing in the claim that they encourage people to stay inside. The IDF is still responsible for killing those people like it or not, no matter how you turn this thing around.

you're probably going to tell me these videos are anti-palestinian propaganda...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0wJXf2nt4Y&feature=kp

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoH19b1TrZo

edit: here's the NY Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/09/w...aflet-israeli-attackers-warn-gazans.html?_r=2

JERUSALEM — The call came to the cellphone of his brother’s wife, Salah Kaware said Tuesday. Mr. Kaware lives in Khan Younis, in southeast Gaza, and the caller said that everyone in the house must leave within five minutes, because it was going to be bombed.

A further warning came as the occupants were leaving, he said in a telephone interview, when an Israeli drone apparently fired a flare at the roof of the three-story home. “Our neighbors came in to form a human shield,” he said, with some even going to the roof to try to prevent a bombing. Others were in the stairway when the house was bombed not long afterward.

 

[Neko Mimi Mode]

Source?

Hamas encourages Gazans to ignore Israeli warnings and act as human shields

More

 

[LNBL]

you're probably going to tell me these videos are anti-palestinian propaganda...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0wJXf2nt4Y&feature=kp

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoH19b1TrZo

I can find similar horrible videos about the IDF, what is your point?

Israel still killed those civilians today and in the past days

 

[Darkangel]

People need to realize that Israel won the war, and has no real reason to make any large concessions towards the Palestinians. It may not be fair or just, but it's the reality of the situation. I think that the Palestinian governments need to cut their losses and take the best peace offer they can realistically get. Certain demands like the right of return and control of Jerusalem will NEVER be given to the Palestinians. Israel holds all the cards in this conflict, why would they ever give up that much? By giving up some of their demands, the Palestinians might be able to negotiate a better land deal.

I think Olmert's 2008 peace proposal was a pretty damn good deal for the Palestinians, yet Abbas and the Palestinian Authority rejected it:

Sure they would have lost out on Jerusalem, but the land swaps were mostly fair and it would have allowed Palestine to finally exist. I honestly think that the Palestinian Authority is doing a great disservice to its people by refusing to make any real compromises.

Most analysts blame the failure of 2000's Camp David Summit on Arafat's refusal to negotiate or make concessions.

Every year Israel continues to build illegal settlements and it doesn't look like they'll be stopping any time soon. The longer the Palestinians wait, the less territory they will end up getting. What do you think is better: a sovereign Palestine with all of Gaza and 92% of the West Bank, or the current situation? Palestinians are suffering from this a hell of a lot more than the Israelis.

 

[Chariot]

I never even heard of it (disabled person getting killed), give me a source so I can know what you're talking about.

Israel air strike 'hits charitable association for disabled' in Gaza

 

[damisa]

Israel Soldier: "General Sir, we suspect a terrorist is in that building. It also appears there's an orphanage there with around 20 children during the day and 10 children at night"
Israeli General: "Let's bomb it a night then", we care about innocents after all."

Israeli apologists: Wow why can't Hamas be as caring and thoughtful as the Israeli military.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

I can find similar horrible videos about the IDF, what is your point?

Israel still killed those civilians today and in the past days

As stated earlier, my point is that Hamas is at least as much to blame for palestinian innocent casualties as IDF.

My next point is going to be that in most cases the damage done to civilians by IDF can not be attributed to malice, where as in Hamas' case the opposite is true.

Israel Soldier: "General Sir, we suspect a terrorist is in that building. It also appears there's an orphanage there with around 20 children during the day and 10 children at night"
Israeli General: "Let's bomb it a night then", we care about innocents after all."

Israeli apologists: Wow why can't Hamas be as caring and thoughtful as the Israeli military.

This is getting ridiculous. Can you provide any proof that any army in the world takes more precautions and achieves better results when it comes to preventing civilian injuries and casualties in densely populated urban war on terrorists?

For fuck sake, the Bush administration couldn't even get the right country, let alone the right apartment in the right building!

 

[LNBL]

As stated earlier, my point is that Hamas is at least as much to blame for palestinian innocent casualties as IDF.

My next point is going to be that in most cases the damage done to civilians by IDF can not be attributed to malice, where as in Hamas' case the opposite is true.

Ok, well on that matter our opinions obviously differ.

 

[Chumly]

As stated earlier, my point is that Hamas is at least as much to blame for palestinian innocent casualties as IDF.

My next point is going to be that in most cases the damage done to civilians by IDF can not be attributed to malice, where as in Hamas' case the opposite is true.

How can you seriously say that? IDF knowingly continues to bomb civilians but justifies it by saying it's the Palestinians fault. Sounds like malice to me.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

How can you seriously say that? IDF knowingly continues to bomb civilians but justifies it by saying it's the Palestinians fault. Sounds like malice to me.

have you been reading this thread, including the linked sources?

 

[damisa]

This is getting ridiculous. Can you provide any proof that any army in the world takes more precautions and achieves better results when it comes to preventing civilian injuries and casualties in densely populated urban war on terrorists?

For fuck sake, the Bush administration couldn't even get the right country, let alone the right apartment in the right building!

We know for a fact that innocents are being killed. So at some point some Israeli military person is making the decision that X innocents are worth killing to kill Y terrorists. Seeing the casualties so far, it appears X >> Y.

 

[LNBL]

have you been reading this thread, including the linked sources?

I have and i don't see how these videos would change my mind about my opinion. How do you explain the bombinb of that hospital then? For the 3rd time mind you.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

I have and i don't see how these videos would change my mind about my opinion. How do you explain the bombinb of that hospital then? For the 3rd time mind you.

I can't say for certain what's going on in that particular hospital, but more than one suggestion has been made, either by myself (in the linked videos) or by previous posters.

We know for a fact that innocents are being killed. So at some point some Israeli military person is making the decision that X innocents are worth killing to kill Y terrorists. Seeing the casualties so far, it appears X >> Y.

And if you'll read some of the previous posts in here, you'll see that IDF is making an effort to warn civilians (via phone calls and warning strikes) in an attempt to reduce casualties, and it may very well be making the biggest effort ever made by a military organization in such a situation, whereas Hamas is seemingly making an effort to increase palestinian casualties.

 

[Partial Gamification]

Israel rushed an eighth missile interceptor battery into service on Saturday to counter stronger-than-expected rocket fire from Gaza as the military pounded positions in the Palestinian enclave for a fifth day, killing 19 people, medics said.
[...]
The U.N. Security Council, after days of discussion, issued a statement calling for a ceasefire and expressed serious concern about the welfare of civilians on both sides.

"The Security Council members called for de-escalation of the situation, restoration of calm and reinstitution of the November 2012 ceasefire," the 15-member body said.
[...]
"In the past week, we carried out a very complex technological exercise to deliver the eighth (Iron Dome) system," a Defence Ministry official said on Israel Radio.
[...]
Egypt's state news agency said that Egyptian President Abdel Fattah al-Sisi had met with Tony Blair, envoy for the so-called Quartet of United Nations, EU, Russia and United States, in efforts to secure a truce.
[...]
Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri said: "We will not beg for calm and we continue to defend our people. Once we are offered a genuine, coherent and serious proposal, we will look into it."
[...]
Israel says Hamas puts innocent Gazans in harm's way by placing weaponry and gunmen in residential areas. A senior Israeli military officer said aircraft had aborted "hundreds" of strikes to avoid collateral damage and that targets bombed were meant to impact Hamas fire capacity.

"We are dealing with a variety of families of targets. If there is a kind of a map, or a map of pain that the enemy sees, we create a lot of pain so that he will have to think first to stop the conflict," the officer said in a briefing to reporters.

Israel says it has hit more than 1,000 targets in Gaza.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/12/us-palestinians-israel-idUSKBN0FC0JP20140712

Mr. Riyad H. Mansour (Palestine), Mr. Abdallah Y. Al-Mouallimi (Saudi Arabia) on Middle East - Security Council media stakeouts (12 July 2014)

Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Senegal, Palestine, League of Arab States on the situation in the Middle East - Security Council Media Stakeout (26 June 2014)

A council statement approved by all 15 members calls for de-escalation of the violence, restoration of calm, and a resumption of direct negotiations between Israelis and Palestinians aimed at achieving a comprehensive peace agreement based on a two-state solution.
[...]
In a sign of increasing international pressure to end the conflict, British Foreign Secretary William Hague also called for a cease-fire Saturday and said he would meet with U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry and the foreign ministers of Germany and France in Vienna on Sunday to discuss a halt to the fighting. Mansour said Arab foreign ministers will also meet Monday "to continue the effort to stop the aggression against our people."

The press statement, which is not legally binding but reflects international opinion, is the first response by the UN's most powerful body, which has been deeply divided on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

The United States, Israel's most important ally, has defended the Israeli attacks in response to the barrage of rockets fired into Israel from Gaza, which is controlled by the militant group Hamas. But other council members have decried the escalating Israeli attacks which Mansour said have killed or injured more than 1,000 Palestinians. There have been no fatalities in Israel from the continued rocket fire.
[...]
The council statement does not directly mention either the Hamas rocketing or the Israeli response.

Instead, it expresses "serious concern regarding the crisis related to Gaza and the protection and welfare of civilians on both sides" and calls for "respect for international humanitarian law, including the protection of civilians."
[...]
If the Israelis do not respond immediately to the cease-fire call, Mansour said one option is to go back to the council to pursue approval of the draft resolution, which if adopted would be legally binding.

The initial draft, obtained by The Associated Press, would condemn all violence against civilians in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and call for "an immediate, durable and fully respected cease-fire."

It expresses "grave concern" at the escalating violence and deteriorating situation in the Palestinian territories due to Israeli military operations, particularly against Gaza,, and at the heavy civilian casualties including among children. But it makes no mention of the rockets fired into Israel from Gaza, which would likely make it unacceptable to the United States, which as a permanent council member has veto power.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/un-security-council-calls-for-israeli-palestinian-ceasefire-1.1911056

After Hamas advance notice rockets intercepted over Tel Aviv area

[...]The IDF is carrying out a "dramatic" large scale strike in the skies of Gaza, Channel 2's military correspondent Ronny Daniel reported Saturday evening.

Hamas launched dozens of rockets at Israel over the Sabbath, striking the Judea region south of Jerusalem for the first time - but in areas under Palestinian Authority control.

A salvo was launched at the Jerusalem area in the early evening, and one rocket exploded in the yard of a home in Arab-controlled Hevron. Another rocket struck Bethlehem, also under PA control, and a third hit Efrat, not far from Bethlehem.

No one was reported hurt in any of the attacks so far on Saturday.

Hamas said that it launched three M-75 rockets at the Jerusalem area.

Hamas television vowed to keep up the rocket attacks despite the IDF's Operation Protective Edge, and promised that a "new kind of rocket", which it called the J-80, would be launched at Tel Aviv at 9:00 p.m. Saturday. The large scale salvo was indeed launched at Tel Aviv as well as other regions shortly after 9:00, but there have not been reports of injuries thus far.
[...]
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/182815

 

[Chumly]

have you been reading this thread, including the linked sources?

Yes I've been watching your videos and reading your links so what's your point?

 

[zebaz08]

"Wake up son, wake up and see the toy I got you" (NSFW)

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10152580129791926

that is hard to watch

 

[DXB-KNIGHT]

Hamas leaders are having the good time in Qatar and Israel have good ties with Qatar. Can't Qatar remedy the situation by a diplomatic agreement between both sides.
This is a photo of Hamas leaders safely living in Qatar during this Ramadan while Gaza people are being killed on their behalf.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

Hamas launched dozens of rockets at Israel over the Sabbath, striking the Judea region south of Jerusalem for the first time - but in areas under Palestinian Authority control.

A salvo was launched at the Jerusalem area in the early evening, and one rocket exploded in the yard of a home in Arab-controlled Hevron. Another rocket struck Bethlehem, also under PA control, and a third hit Efrat, not far from Bethlehem.

quoting for emphasis.

I can only say: what the fuck Hamas???

 

[zeroOman]

Hamas encourages Gazans to ignore Israeli warnings and act as human shields

More

and? we saw how the Israel army care alot for these ppl and how he keep hitting and then say it's Hamas fault... they don't care both part don't care...

 

[theignoramus]

My next point is going to be that in most cases the damage done to civilians by IDF can not be attributed to malice, where as in Hamas' case the opposite is true.

what part of the following statements is so difficult to understand?
"We will apply disproportionate force... and cause great damage and destruction there. From our standpoint, these are not civilian villages, they are military bases," Eisenkot told the Yedioth Ahronoth newspaper.

"This is not a recommendation. This is a plan. And it has been approved"


"We have proven to Hamas that we have changed the equation. Israel is not a country upon which you fire missiles and it does not respond. It is a country that when you fire on its citizens it responds by going wild – and this is a good thing."-Tzipi Livni

These are candid admissions of a policy to punish and use "disproportionate force" on enemy populations.

 

[danwarb]

quoting for emphasis.

I can only say: what the fuck Hamas???

They only have shitty unguided rockets. That's why so few hit anything.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

They only have shitty unguided rockets. That's why so few hit anything.

and knowing this, they still have no problem aiming their unguided rockets where they can potentially hit civilians in the palestinian authority. what kind of regard for palestinian life does that show?

 

[Pilgor]

and knowing this, they still have no problem aiming their unguided rockets where they can potentially hit civilians in the palestinian authority. what kind of regard for palestinian life does that show?

For Hamas, it's win-win. They get to claim casualty numbers AND martyrs.

It's very sad, but Hamas have no qualms about putting their own people in danger.

 

[cuchulainn]

Why doesn't the U.S Govt speak against such human rights abuses witnessed, such as the one against the Palestinian disabled facility shown on BBC news and elsewhere? Why should a large equipped military nation today get away with such things against innocent people? Reports that i've read have said it is largely innocent people affected.

 

[LNBL]

For Hamas, it's win-win. They get to claim casualty numbers AND martyrs.

It's very sad, but Hamas have no qualms about putting their own people in danger.

You think Hamas is killing their own to raise the casualty number and martyr number?

Think i'm done with this thread for today

 

[Pilgor]

You think Hamas is killing their own to raise the casualty number and martyr number?

Think i'm done with this thread for today

Yes

Seeking Human Shields, Hamas Tells Gazans to Ignore IDF Warnings

 

[Vigilant Walrus]

Anyone here who has lived in the middle-east who can answer me this; I've only been to Turkey, but I am wondering if in muslim countries, generally, are jews accepted or are they feeling opressed and/or hatred for their race? Not because of the state of Israel but the flat out racism.
Because the Israeli gov have made statements in that they are targets by everyone over racial grudges stretching many many hundreds of years back.


My history teacher told me that in the middle ages in Europe Jews were barred from entering the feudal lifestyle and couldnt be farmers. Back then it was thought as a disadvantage as more than 90% of the people lived off farming. My history teacher told me that this is where the migration of jews becoming bankers, doctors, lawyers and statesman began. They were not allowed to be farmers, so they almost became specilaized in these powerful positions. Basically the european monoarchy gave the Jews power without them realizing it.

I don't really understand the ancient anti-semitism, but I heard it stretches back all the way to the earliest forms jeudism from it's roots in the fertile crescent. But on the other hand, all the bumbo-jumbo mel gibson zionistic conspiracy shite sounds crazy as well. I've heard of schools now who can't teach about the holocaust because of offending skeptics.
I saw a documentary a month ago or so, that claimed that they now believe the Pyramids were not build by Jewish slaves, but by poor followers. History is changing, but also being denied. It's difficult to understand or make sense of the claims of Iraelis when they say they are being targeted for ethnic genocide!


TL,DR - Anyone here who has lived in the muslim world who can share the general muslims feeling towards jewish people on a day-to-day basis. Not the poltiics or anger towards the state of Israel, but simply Jewish people in general. I would love to hear some personal stories or try and get a sense of how it feels. I've only heard conflicting and crazy stories from Lebannon, which is famous for it's diversity.

But I wonder how it feels to be a jew and living in Syria, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Sudan, and so on.

 

[Cloudy]

This is getting ridiculous. Can you provide any proof that any army in the world takes more precautions and achieves better results when it comes to preventing civilian injuries and casualties in densely populated urban war on terrorists?

For fuck sake, the Bush administration couldn't even get the right country, let alone the right apartment in the right building!

Even the Bush administration would never deliberately fire on a mosque for any reason since they knew it'd just incite. They'd wait for the people they were after to come out...

 

[Quotient]

quoting for emphasis.

I can only say: what the fuck Hamas???

They don't have guided missiles - they roughly aim the in the direction they want, fire and hope for the best.

During the 2006 war with Hezbollah, a lot of rockets that hit Haifa and Akka actually hit arab neighborhoods.