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[JordanN]

You just described exactly what happened with the PLO in the West Bank. And it's provided them nothing.

They did nothing to stop the Intifada. Of course talks would break down after that.

 

[pgtl_10]

They need to elect someone who can push for peace. That's literally the only way to engage with Israel.

You are one those Israel is always right and if you disagree an Anti-Semite aren't you?

People keep saying Israel is very restrained. I never realize that you can fire motor at someone's home and then kill everyone you want in the home.

Does that mean Al-Qadia can fire a motor before crashing a plane into the building? What if soldiers are inside the building?

I had an Israeli tank come toward my high school because kids were making obscene gestures toward a soldier. He pointed his gun at the kids before calling for the tank. Is that what I can do when somebody points a middle finger at me? Pull out a gun and call for an airstrike?

 

[damisa]

I ask you, do you honestly believe that the IDF has a policy of intentionally targeting civilians?

Yes I do. They won't target civilians alone, but if there's a mix of civilians and Hamas members then that's good enough for them to start bombing away.

 

[pgtl_10]

They did nothing to stop the Intifada. Of course talks would break down after that.

And Israel fired 1.2 million bullets in the first months. The Israelis did nothing to tone down the escalation. I was there when the second one erupted. Israel would intentionaly place their jeeps in areas where they would get trouble.

I got a better idea. How about give Palestinians full citizenship rights? Conduct the missing three people using a police investigation instead of mass arrests. Also why should families of suspects have their homes raided and destroyed? What happened to having a trial? Why should the mother of an alleged suspect lose a home just because she is a mother.

This conflict was avoidable if Israel would have operated in a respectable manner.

 

[JordanN]

You are one those Israel is always right and if you disagree an Anti-Semite aren't you?

No. I think Israeli settlements need to go and criticism of Israel is not antisemitic (however, certain types of criticism can be considered antisemitic such as the nazi baiting posts that were in this thread).

People keep saying Israel is very restrained. I never realize that you can fire motor at someone's home and then kill everyone you want in the home.

Does that mean Al-Qadia can fire a motor before crashing a plane into the building? What if soldiers are inside the building?

I had an Israeli tank come toward my high school because kids were making obscene gestures toward a soldier. He pointed his gun at the kids before calling for the tank. Is that what I can do when somebody points a middle finger at me? Pull out a gun and call for an airstrike?

I wasn't there, so I can't comment. Israel constantly updates their rules of engagement, they can't even fire at molotov wielding protestors anymore. Any soldier who breaks these rules should be disciplined.

 

[TarNaru33]

Get your facts right. Iran has a sizable Jewish minority for example.

Lol, surely you are joking? The Jewish population in Iran is no where near "sizable", especially relative to Iran's population.

Anyways, I am wondering how you all whom is stating efyu_lemonardo's post as inaccurate define the "not welcome". It don't have to be outright banning of the Jewish people, to constitute them as not welcome to the Muslim countries.

The main reason for the Jews leaving these countries en mass was due to being expelled from the countries they were in and being horribly treated (mainly upon the creation of Israel), this also include some European countries like the Soviet Union. This is a fact one can easily find.

 

[pgtl_10]

No. I think Israeli settlements need to go and criticism of Israel is not antisemitic (however, certain types of criticism can be considered antisemitic such as the nazi baiting posts that were in this thread).


I wasn't there, so I can't comment. Israel constantly updates their rules of engagement, they can't even fire at molotov wielding protestors anymore. Any soldier who breaks these rules should be disciplined.

So as long Israel has the tactics in writing then it is OK to use them? It is this absurd thinking that justifies atrocities and wars. The victims never have a say in these rules. Palestinians don't have say in the Israeli Knesset or how the rules are made. Therefore, it's really a farce.

 

[pgtl_10]

Lol, surely you are joking? The Jewish population in Iran is no where near "sizable", especially relative to Iran's population.

Anyways, I am wondering how you all whom is stating efyu_lemonardo's post as inaccurate define the "not welcome". It don't have to be outright banning of the Jewish people, to constitute them as not welcome to the Muslim countries.

The main reason for the Jews leaving these countries en mass was due to being expelled from the countries they were in and being horribly treated (mainly upon the creation of Israel), this also include some European countries like the Soviet Union. This is a fact one can easily find.

True but that doesn't explain why Palestinians should be responsible for the countries of Europe and even neighboring Arab countries.

That to me is a logical fallacy.

 

[GSG Flash]

Anyways, I am wondering how you all whom is stating efyu_lemonardo's post as inaccurate define the "not welcome". It don't have to be outright banning of the Jewish people, to constitute them as not welcome to the Muslim countries.

"Jews are not welcome in Arab or Muslim countries"

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that American Jews are welcome anywhere where your average American is welcome, that includes Muslim countries. I mean just watch Jon Stewart's visit to Iran. It might surprise you to know that not only did he not get lynched, he was actually received very warmly.

There's a reason why we're claiming that statement to be absolutely fucking stupid.

 

[Quotient]

"Jews are not welcome in Arab or Muslim countries"

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that American Jews are welcome anywhere where your average American is welcome, that includes Muslim countries. I mean just watch Jon Stewart's visit to Iran. It might surprise you to know that not only did he not get lynched, he was actually received very warmly.

There's a reason why we're claiming that statement to be absolutely fucking stupid.

Did Jon Steward himself visit Iran? I thought it was one of his correspondents, Jason Jones.

 

[TarNaru33]

True but that doesn't explain why Palestinians should be responsible for the countries of Europe and even neighboring Arab countries.

That to me is a logical fallacy.

They all bear some responsibility for the things going on right now, just as many like to blame U.S for vetoing U.N resolutions that goes against Israeli interest.

There is no true justification for the death of civilians and I do not think anyone who is defending Israel's actions (of which I am one of them) believes such because the death of an innocent is never just, however, it can be understandable. Some want to use the pictures and videos of civilian deaths, which I understand bringing the horrors of war to others, but it is done with an agenda. Israel isn't going to not use air strikes simply because Hamas do not having advanced weapons, neither would U.S or any other 1st world country in a war. This is reality, shit happens.

People want to claim Israel is not trying to reduce civilian casualties; this is a fallacy. Israel is taking precautions considering the amount of civilian deaths per strike, that are on U.S and NATO levels. This isn't a conventional war like when we were against Libya, which is one of the reasons why NATO avoided so many civilian casualties.

Both belligerents in this conflict have massive amount of propaganda given to their people (a little less so on Israeli side). This is the reason the conflict goes on and people (Hamas) deem violence as necessary to get a Palestinian state. This isn't so and people shouldn't try to justify that either.

One side needs to quit it and focus on the better of their people. The one I think that should do this is the Palestinians. They need to go for economical and social advancement (and lesser propaganda), which if they done so from the very start, I think they would of had their Palestinian state by now.

 

[GSG Flash]

Did Jon Steward himself visit Iran? I thought it was one of his correspondents, Jason Jones.

Sorry, you're right, my memory failed me.

 

[Partial Gamification]

Did Jon Steward himself visit Iran? I thought it was one of his correspondents, Jason Jones.

I don't think Iranians have a problem with Jon Stewart so much as the Iranian Government.

Rosewater is an upcoming American drama film written and directed by Jon Stewart, based on the memoir Then They Came for Me by Maziar Bahari and Aimee Molloy. Bahari's imprisonment is connected to an interview he conducted on The Daily Show in 2009; the authorities presented the interview as evidence that he was in communication with an American spy. Due to the content of the film, Stewart has been accused by Iran's State TV of being funded by Zionists and working with the CIA.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosewater_(film)

Filmed in Jordan.

 

[yodathesoda]

Jews are forbidden from entering Saudi Arabia. I know that as a fact.

 

[michaelius]

Gaza is not a country. If you think it is you need to do some reading.

I'm confused, what do you think they should do to get statehood? Because in the West Bank no one fires rockets, in fact they cooperate with Israel. And all they get in return are more settlements.

How many air strikes were made against West Bank in last week ?

 

[TarNaru33]

"Jews are not welcome in Arab or Muslim countries"

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that American Jews are welcome anywhere where your average American is welcome, that includes Muslim countries. I mean just watch Jon Stewart's visit to Iran. It might surprise you to know that not only did he not get lynched, he was actually received very warmly.

There's a reason why we're claiming that statement to be absolutely fucking stupid.

I don't recall him visiting Iran and please tell me how a higher profile (he isn't a normal citizen) man such as him not being attacked or ignored means Jews are accepted?

Lol, come on man don't be ridiculous. As I said, it depends on your view of being welcomed. Subtle things like, being ignored, discriminated against, unfairness in court etc, would make a people feel unwelcome.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Jews#Current_status_in_Iran

Not sure how this is welcoming... Anyways, Iran has a policy of keeping as many Jews in Iran as possible. Probably an attempt to keep from looking bad in western eyes.

 

[GSG Flash]

Jews are forbidden from entering Saudi Arabia. I know that as a fact.

I really don't want to defend Saudi Arabia but... that's not a fact at all:

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world...riminating-against-jewish-passengers-1.369733

According to a JTA report Sunday, the Saudi Embassy said in a two-sentence statement that “The Government of Saudi Arabia does not deny visas to U.S. citizens based on their religion."

That said, they don't allow religious items of faiths other than Islam into the country, which makes it difficult for religiously observant Jews and Christians to enter the country.

 

[yodathesoda]

Do you want to guess how many Visa's Saudi authorities grant to people with Israeli stamps on their passports? The official line is one thing but the reality is much different.

 

[GSG Flash]

Do you want to guess how many Visa's Saudi authorities grant to people with Israeli stamps on their passports? The official line is one thing but the reality is much different.

So you're saying that all Jews have visited Israel?

I know Jews who have never once stepped into Israel, they would certainly disprove your "fact" that Jews aren't allowed to enter Saudi Arabia (if they ever decided to visit that hell hole for some reason).

edit: And, for that matter, SA would deny entry to a Muslim who has an Israeli stamp on their passport.

 

[TarNaru33]

I really don't want to defend Saudi Arabia but... that's not a fact at all:

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world...riminating-against-jewish-passengers-1.369733



That said, they don't allow religious items of faiths other than Islam into the country, which makes it difficult for religiously observant Jews and Christians to enter the country.

It is not a full fact, but the quote don't say they won't deny Jews from other countries. Of course denying U.S citizens based on religion while being a U.S "ally" isn't really the smartest idea.

 

[artist]

“The blood of a dialysis patient in Gaza is not redder than the blood of our IDF [Israeli army] soldiers who will, God forbid, need to enter [Gaza],” said Moshe Feiglin, the deputy speaker of the Knesset, Israel’s parliament, on Wednesday.

“Therefore I call on the prime minister who we all support in this difficult hour, before we send the IDF into Gaza, we should simply shut down their electricity,” he added.

 

[Terra Firma]

Do you want to guess how many Visa's Saudi authorities grant to people with Israeli stamps on their passports? The official line is one thing but the reality is much different.

Israel is a completely different matter. Even if you're a Muslim, if you have an Israeli stamp on your passport, you are denied entry into Saudi Arabia. There was even a story of a Saudi scholar who wanted to visit Jerusalem but was told that he would be denied re-entry into Saudi Arabia because he would have an Israeli stamp on his passport.

Now, if you don't have an Israeli stamp on your passport, then you're free to enter, regardless of your religion.

It is not a full fact, but the quote don't say they won't deny Jews from other countries. Of course denying U.S citizens based on religion while being a U.S "ally" isn't really the smartest idea.

No, they do not block Jews from other countries from entering. I have met British Jews in Saudi Arabia. There was even a Yemeni Jewish family that lived in the city I used to live in.

And again, if Israel were to call itself a theocracy or autocracy, this discussion would be relevant. Saudi Arabia is an absolute monarchy. Iran is a theocracy. I don't see why people find the need to show how Israel is "better" than them. Israel calls itself a democracy.

 

[Maninthemirror]

This is old but so relevant to this thread

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=C0CulhsQkTA

That emotion in his voice . Damn .

 

[RustyNails]

“The blood of a dialysis patient in Gaza is not redder than the blood of our IDF [Israeli army] soldiers who will, God forbid, need to enter [Gaza],” said Moshe Feiglin, the deputy speaker of the Knesset, Israel’s parliament, on Wednesday.

“Therefore I call on the prime minister who we all support in this difficult hour, before we send the IDF into Gaza, we should simply shut down their electricity,” he added.

From last year,

A right-wing Israeli minister called for terrorists to be killed rather than captured alive, after Israel approved the release of more than 100 Palestinian prisoners as a goodwill gesture to ease the resumption of peace talks.

Jewish settlements champion Naftali Bennett, also reportedly rebuked critics who said the practice would be illegal saying he had personally killed "lots of Arabs" and "there is no problem in that".

 

[Linkhero1]

I don't think that SA thing is true for everyone unless my cousin was a special case. He's been able to get into SA with an Israeli visa although he was there for work. He didn't have any issue getting in.

 

[sindbadthesailor]

They need to elect someone who can push for peace. That's literally the only way to engage with Israel.
By virtue, if Palestinians collectively agree to stop fighting, the representative can finally have evidence. "See, we gave up our arms. We're serious this time".

It'd be really nice if Israel would do the same, instead of electing one right-wing, war mongering leader after another.

 

[JordanN]

It'd be really nice if Israel would do the same, instead of electing one right-wing, war mongering leader after another.

Well they did elect Menachem Begin,Yitzhak Rabin, Ariel Sharon (yeah, I know irony) and Ehud Olmert. All who have pushed for peace.

The government is also split between Likud and Yesh Atid. So it's not a "one party controls all" kind of thing whereas in the Palestinian territories, you have Hamas completely dominating Gaza politics and Fatah controlling the West Bank.

 

[Partial Gamification]

Random: What is the story behind the Thai workers in the Negev [edit: in and around the Loess-rich areas]? They working on military installations or civilian construction projects? See complaints about them trapping animals. Do Bedouin get negative media for overgrazing on Israeli TV?

 

[NYCmetsfan]

.

 

[m_shortpants]

How many air strikes were made against West Bank in last week ?

None, but settlement building continues.

 

[AmyS]

Updated: Possible start of ground incursion into Gaza by Israel

There is no mainstream media report of this yet (that I was able to find). Pray for Israel! Please remove this post, Admin Moderator, if this is not appropriate. Gadi Adelman, host of America Akbar Radio, just posted (I shared on my page to keep it at the top):

"URGENT! BREAKING AS I WRITE THIS... Israel is currently starting the ground invasion in to Gaza!

It is currently 2am local time in Israel, they are shelling from the ground, small arms are being used and a reporter in Gaza just stated that he has seen Israeli Special Forces landing on the beach."

https://www.facebook.com/gadi.adelman/posts/738740572833757
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/3179489/posts?page=111


Also, CNN.com

Israeli troops raid Gaza missile site
Gunfire exchanged as rockets fly

Though a full-scale invasion has not occurred, Israeli military forces went into Gaza for 30 minutes and raided a long-range missile launching site, an Israeli military source told CNN.

more:
http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/12/world/meast/mideast-tensions/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

 

[hukasmokincaterpillar]

Where does the cruelty come from?

Nearly every student upon arrival would begin expressing his antipathy for the caprine breed. "A goat is a dumb creature, hard-headed, homely," we'd say.

A few acknowledged what the program was actually doing without seeking these comfortable rationalizations. A few even became attached to the animals and grew more depressed with each day.

But most required the anti-caprine ideology to sustain their activity.

So it's actually not that complicated. It's not that normal people start out hating everyone else and then brutalize them; they brutalize everyone else as part of their job and then they HAVE to hate them, or they can't keep doing it. If they can't keep doing it, they drop out of the Special Forces or the foreclosure mill law firm, leaving behind only people who've managed to generate enough cruelty within themselves that they can.

BDS.

 

[JordanN]

You know, Israel really needs to start getting the soldiers in and recapture the Gaza Strip.
If they don't, I can easily see Hamas turning the war into a propaganda victory and thus their grip on Gaza will grow stronger.

The only reason I can think Israel wont remove Hamas is if they calculated a backlash. Neighboring countries would be pissed if they lose their only terror proxy in Palestine.

They might also not want to look after Gaza again. After all, if Hamas leaves, who will take power? It would be like Iraq again where instead of Saddam, you actually get a more corrupt government instead.
IDF soldiers would also have to pay their lives guarding the Gaza Strip and it's bad enough they have to be called in right now.

 

[Khalid-S]

Israeli soldiers arresting 11 year old kids

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1kZor3PJRw

 

[Razgreez]

How anyone can empathize with zionists who are brought up to hate all others, especially for some reason the very people who were the only people in history not to persecute them, is beyond me. Surely if you're empathizing with racists, and very proud are they of their hatred for non zionists, then you must yourself be one.

https://storify.com/davidsheen/israeli-army-the-next-generation

 

[pgtl_10]

They all bear some responsibility for the things going on right now, just as many like to blame U.S for vetoing U.N resolutions that goes against Israeli interest.

There is no true justification for the death of civilians and I do not think anyone who is defending Israel's actions (of which I am one of them) believes such because the death of an innocent is never just, however, it can be understandable. Some want to use the pictures and videos of civilian deaths, which I understand bringing the horrors of war to others, but it is done with an agenda. Israel isn't going to not use air strikes simply because Hamas do not having advanced weapons, neither would U.S or any other 1st world country in a war. This is reality, shit happens.

People want to claim Israel is not trying to reduce civilian casualties; this is a fallacy. Israel is taking precautions considering the amount of civilian deaths per strike, that are on U.S and NATO levels. This isn't a conventional war like when we were against Libya, which is one of the reasons why NATO avoided so many civilian casualties.

Both belligerents in this conflict have massive amount of propaganda given to their people (a little less so on Israeli side). This is the reason the conflict goes on and people (Hamas) deem violence as necessary to get a Palestinian state. This isn't so and people shouldn't try to justify that either.

One side needs to quit it and focus on the better of their people. The one I think that should do this is the Palestinians. They need to go for economical and social advancement (and lesser propaganda), which if they done so from the very start, I think they would of had their Palestinian state by now.

I see it's all the Palestinians fault. Israel is always right and they don't use as much propaganda. If they just do everything Israel says they will get everything they want. Never mind that settlements were built faster during the peace process. Never mind that Israel controls significant portions of the Palestinian economy. Never mind they carried out mass arrests and killed people in response to three missing people.

It's all the Palestinians fault because Israel is always right. Israel behaives with utmost restraint because they give calls or shoot motors before destroying a home.

That my friend is belief that is very essential to propaganda.

 

[pgtl_10]

I want to know how IDF has managed to convince people that this "warning" system is somehow acceptable and its tough luck if women and children don't get out in time. Basically everyone supporting this openly admits that Israel knows its bombing buildings with women and children but its ok because they place a phone call or drop sound bombs. I mean what is the point of even bombing the building if they are giving the residents a chance to escape. Clearly it isn't to kill Hamas since they give them time to get away. That means the only point is to inflict collective punishment on the Palestinian people which would be considered War crimes if it was anyone but Israel.

Every new assault on Gaza comes new excuses to justify the absurd and lopsided death toll.

No one has yet yo explain why Israel needed to perform mass arrests and kill people to find three teens.

 

[pgtl_10]

I would still like to see the Israeli government demonstrate to the people the things they have tried to bring peace to the region.

Like a national or even international sit down with everyone and let the PEOPLE figure out the avenue for peace. Because the Israeli government sure hasn't gotten anywhere in the past few decades.

Is that extreme? Yes. But democratic and if the national security is always being threatened in this way, its probably needed.

Once they have a peaceful solution, they commit to it.

However, then the next thing before even committing to that solution is allowing the people of Israel to communicate with the people of Palestine. I mean, the segregation is ridiculous and wlll not go away if there is no communication. If people on both sides want peace, then they'll meet each other.

It'll require organization and no missiles (!) to do it, but I believe it's the best way to peace in that region. So long as the people who want peace want peace, and they outnumber the radicals on either side, then it's more than likely that the people will readily shame/charge anyone who attacks the other side.

Reminds me of this article:

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2013/sep/26/american-jewish-cocoon/

 

[TarNaru33]

I see it's all the Palestinians fault. Israel is always right and they don't use as much propaganda. If they just do everything Israel says they will get everything they want. Never mind that settlements were built faster during the peace process. Never mind that Israel controls significant portions of the Palestinian economy. Never mind they carried out mass arrests and killed people in response to three missing people.

It's all the Palestinians fault because Israel is always right. Israel behaives with utmost restraint because they give calls or shoot motors before destroying a home.

That my friend is belief that is very essential to propaganda.

How about actually reading what I posted and not twisting it? No where did I say it is all their fault. I have not blamed either party for the conflict because it will just lead to tit for tat and continue the cycle of stupidity.

I only suggest Palestinians stop (Hamas mainly) stop resorting to violence as if it is helping their cause because it isn't. What I believe needs to be done is cooperation between Israel and Palestine on an economical basis and they should stop posting up propaganda which brainwashes the future generations.

 

[BloodMoney]

Holy land my ass.

 

[Terra Firma]

How about actually reading what I posted and not twisting it? No where did I say it is all their fault. I have not blamed either party for the conflict because it will just lead to tit for tat and continue the cycle of stupidity.

I only suggest Palestinians stop (Hamas mainly) stop resorting to violence as if it is helping their cause because it isn't. What I believe needs to be done is cooperation between Israel and Palestine on an economical basis and they should stop posting up propaganda which brainwashes the future generations.

Again, Hamas is in Gaza. What is Israel's excuse for continuing settlement construction in the West Bank?

 

[hydragonwarrior]

One side needs to quit it and focus on the better of their people. The one I think that should do this is the Palestinians. They need to go for economical and social advancement (and lesser propaganda), which if they done so from the very start, I think they would of had their Palestinian state by now.

In that case, both sides have to "suck it up" when it comes to civilian casualties. The deaths of innocents inspires outrage on both sides, but *both* sides should agree to quitting it even if death occurs.

I do agree that until it's vocally known to the Israeli or Palestinian government their people want peace, and that Israeli and the Palestinian people can both agree together through communication that they want peace as well above all else, then Hamas will weaken and hopefully there will be a more moderate Israeli government taken into power.

 

[pgtl_10]

How about actually reading what I posted and not twisting it? No where did I say it is all their fault. I have not blamed either party for the conflict because it will just lead to tit for tat and continue the cycle of stupidity.

I only suggest Palestinians stop (Hamas mainly) stop resorting to violence as if it is helping their cause because it isn't. What I believe needs to be done is cooperation between Israel and Palestine on an economical basis and they should stop posting up propaganda which brainwashes the future generations.

Except in this case Hamas responded to mass arrests and killings. The rockets came afterward.

Funny how nobody has ever said Israel should stop using violence cause it has not helped them bring about peace.

People act like the Palestinians need to be taught to hate. Most don't realize Israeli soldiers are generally their teachers.

 

[deathkiller]

In that case, both sides have to "suck it up" when it comes to civilian casualties. The deaths of innocents inspires outrage on both sides, but *both* sides should agree to quitting it even if death occurs.

I do agree that until it's vocally known to the Israeli or Palestinian government their people want peace, and that Israeli and the Palestinian people can both agree together through communication that they want peace as well above all else, then Hamas will weaken and hopefully there will be a more moderate Israeli government taken into power.

The Palestinian government in West Bank has clearly shown that they want peace, the current Israeli government has clearly shown that they want more settlements in West Bank. The settlements never had anything to do with defending/protecting Israel, they are pure greed.

 

[TarNaru33]

Again, Hamas is in Gaza. What is Israel's excuse for continuing settlement construction in the West Bank?

I wasn't talking about the West Bank when talking of more recent violence. At any rate, no country acknowledges those settlements.

As I state, they should focus on economical and social advancement, which they definitely are improving on. It will be a long process, but I deem it better than Hama's approach.

In that case, both sides have to "suck it up" when it comes to civilian casualties. The deaths of innocents inspires outrage on both sides, but *both* sides should agree to quitting it even if death occurs.

I do agree that until it's vocally known to the Israeli or Palestinian government their people want peace, and that Israeli and the Palestinian people can both agree together through communication that they want peace as well above all else, then Hamas will weaken and hopefully there will be a more moderate Israeli government taken into power.

Unfortunately, this isn't going to happen. In order for both to stop, one will have to stop first and remain calm despite the other's attempt to rile them up.

Reason why I say Palestine should be the one is because they are at a great disadvantage. It would aide them more in the long run as hopefully more moderate people gain control and they get more stern support for their statehood.

Except in this case Hamas responded to mass arrests and killings. The rockets came afterward.

Funny how nobody has ever said Israel should stop using violence cause it has not helped them bring about peace.

People act like the Palestinians need to be taught to hate. Most don't realize Israeli soldiers are generally their teachers.

What? Most of the thread is exactly people saying the bold. Yes, a lot of people are taught to hate, whether you believe it or not. That is what mass propaganda is for.


Yes, because firing rockets in mass is a good idea lol. I agree that what Israel did was unacceptable, but it doesn't justify Hama's retaliation. Also I think the main reason they retaliated was because Israel arrested people they agreed to let free in an earlier deal.

 

[squidyj]

They all bear some responsibility for the things going on right now, just as many like to blame U.S for vetoing U.N resolutions that goes against Israeli interest.

There is no true justification for the death of civilians and I do not think anyone who is defending Israel's actions (of which I am one of them) believes such because the death of an innocent is never just, however, it can be understandable. Some want to use the pictures and videos of civilian deaths, which I understand bringing the horrors of war to others, but it is done with an agenda. Israel isn't going to not use air strikes simply because Hamas do not having advanced weapons, neither would U.S or any other 1st world country in a war. This is reality, shit happens.

People want to claim Israel is not trying to reduce civilian casualties; this is a fallacy. Israel is taking precautions considering the amount of civilian deaths per strike, that are on U.S and NATO levels. This isn't a conventional war like when we were against Libya, which is one of the reasons why NATO avoided so many civilian casualties.

Both belligerents in this conflict have massive amount of propaganda given to their people (a little less so on Israeli side). This is the reason the conflict goes on and people (Hamas) deem violence as necessary to get a Palestinian state. This isn't so and people shouldn't try to justify that either.

One side needs to quit it and focus on the better of their people. The one I think that should do this is the Palestinians. They need to go for economical and social advancement (and lesser propaganda), which if they done so from the very start, I think they would of had their Palestinian state by now.

Economic advancement? are you fucking kidding me? Israel works to prevent and repress economic growth in gaza and the west bank.

http://www.un.org/depts/dpa/qpal/docs/2012Cairo/p2%20jad%20isaac%20e.pdf

They suppress the ability for Palestinians to earn wages and create any sort of an economy. If you think focusing on economic advancement is a goal with any hope of success in this sort of a climate then you are living a dream world.

 

[RustyNails]

Reason why I say Palestine should be the one is because they are at a great disadvantage. It would aide them more in the long run as hopefully more moderate people gain control and they get more stern support for their statehood.

Let me get this straight. Israel that has been in violation of various UN resolutions by illegally occupying and oppressing a local population, denying them rights, movement and utility, blocking their borders, import-export, bulldozing their rightful homes, illegally (by international laws) importing racist, zealot assholes called settlers on their land by giving them incentives that harass, ridicule and mock the native Palestinians, has a zealous and well equiped, state of the art military that does not care about civilians in its artillery strikes, should not take the step towards peace. But Palestinians should, because might makes right. Because bullies should get their way. Fuck that. PA took that peace bait and got nothing but more settlements from Israel. At least Hamas' dirty offensive keeps those racist settler scum out and Israel wouldn't dare build settlements in Gaza. Hamas has every right to distrust Israel.

 

[neurosisxeno]

They suppress the ability for Palestinians to earn wages and create any sort of an economy. If you think focusing on economic advancement is a goal with any hope of success in this sort of a climate then you are living a dream world.

It fits with the typical conservative narrative that people are only poor because they choose to be, not because the system is preventing them from advancing. You heard it Palestine, time to pull yourself up by your bootstraps! (I hate that god damn phrase)

 

[GBG]

In terms of the current conflict Hamas really have to shoulder the majority of the blame. They are ultimately responsible of the lives and well being of the 2 million people in Gaza, yet they station weapon caches in urban areas, willingly fire rockets into Israel and then advise the population of Gaza to stay in their homes under Israeli bombardment, knowing perfectly well that this will lead to casualties. Do they not expect retaliation from Israel? It is absolutely reprehensible behaviour from a ruling party who clearly place no value on human life, nor the safety of their electorate.

 

[Partial Gamification]

In terms of the current conflict Hamas really have to shoulder the majority of the blame. They are ultimately responsible of the lives and well being of the 2 million people in Gaza, yet they station weapon caches in urban areas, willingly fire rockets into Israel and then advise the population of Gaza to stay in their homes under Israeli bombardment, knowing perfectly well that this will lead to casualties. Do they not expect retaliation from Israel? It is absolutely reprehensible behaviour from a ruling party who clearly place no value on human life, nor the safety of their electorate.

I disagree. By the same logic, Israel is responsible for the actions in the areas under its control, and then would take the responsibility for both the murders of of the three Israeli teens and the burning of the Palestinian youth (and the beating of his American cousin). Since Israel is responsible for the lives and well-being in the West Bank, this operation comes off as overly hostile if not orchestrated by those taking advantage of tragedies.

Netanyahu then expanded the scope of his press conference to talk about the rise of Islamic extremism across the Middle East. He said Israel finds itself in a region “that is being seized by Islamic extremism. It is bringing down countries, many countries. It is knocking on our door, in the north and south. We will defend ourselves on every front, defensively and offensively. Nobody should mess with us.”
[...]
Adjacent territory has huge importance,” Netanyahu said, and could be used by terrorists to dig tunnels and to fire rockets. The closer terrorists can get to Israel’s borders, he said, the more rockets they fire — as the current conflict was proving.

“At present we have a problem with the territory called Gaza,” the prime minister said. But he noted that the West Bank is 20 times the size of Gaza, and vowed that he was not prepared “to create another 20 Gazas” in the West Bank.
http://www.timesofisrael.com/netany...-israel-cant-relinquish-control-of-west-bank/

edit: r.e. thai worker question:

[...]Kai has worked here for four and half years. He has six months to go on his five-year visa.

He is doing work that used to be done by another cheap workforce just down the road.

Netiv Haasara is right on the border with Gaza. Standing by the greenhouses you can literally touch the huge concrete wall that separates Israel from the Palestinian territory.

Less than a kilometre from Netiv Haasara is the Erez Crossing, the main checkpoint from Gaza into Israel.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8597493.stm