Support NeoGAF

[efyu_lemonardo]

what part of the following statements is so difficult to understand?
"We will apply disproportionate force... and cause great damage and destruction there. From our standpoint, these are not civilian villages, they are military bases," Eisenkot told the Yedioth Ahronoth newspaper.

"This is not a recommendation. This is a plan. And it has been approved"


"We have proven to Hamas that we have changed the equation. Israel is not a country upon which you fire missiles and it does not respond. It is a country that when you fire on its citizens it responds by going wild – and this is a good thing."-Tzipi Livni

These are candid admissions of a policy to punish and use "disproportionate force" on enemy populations.

They are, but these policies weren't created out of thin air, and these policy makers weren't always pushing for this kind of operation. Go back and look for quotes from five or ten years ago. Better yet, take a few hours and read monthly headlines starting twenty or thirty years ago and all the way to this present day to get a better understanding of how this conflict has developed (or failed to develop) over the years. I'm not condoning the statements you quoted, but in the interest of having a fair discussion you have to understand it's very hard and time consuming for a small number of posters to have to address the basics of this struggle and attempt to establish a common factual ground, while simultaneously fending off criticisms about the latest developments.

TL,DR - Anyone here who has lived in the muslim world who can share the general muslims feeling towards jewish people on a day-to-day basis. Not the poltiics or anger towards the state of Israel, but simply Jewish people in general. I would love to hear some personal stories or try and get a sense of how it feels. I've only heard conflicting and crazy stories from Lebannon, which is famous for it's diversity.

But I wonder how it feels to be a jew and living in Syria, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Sudan, and so on.

I'll try to make this quick and simple. In general, barring a small number of exceptions, Jews are not welcome in Arab or Muslim countries.
Here is a list of countries, ranked according to the size of their Jewish population:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_population_by_country#Countries
edit: and here's a list of countries that do not accept Israeli passports (meaning Israelis cannot travel to these destinations as tourists).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_passport#Countries_that_do_not_accept_Israeli_passports

 

[Quotient]

and? we saw how the Israel army care alot for these ppl and how he keep hitting and then say it's Hamas fault... they don't care both part don't care...

I think the distinction people are trying to make, and which i agree with, is that the IDF, as an organisation, is not deliberately targeting civilians, if they were you would see a much large death toll, instead they are making attempt to prevent civilian deaths, but as this is a war, civilians are always caught in the cross-fire. Whereas Hamas*, is deliberately placing weapon caches, rocket launchers etc in densely populated urban areas, they know full well that it makes it harder for Israel to destroy and results in civilian deaths. They implore civilians to create human shields, and suggest dying as one will make you a martyr.

Now whether you believe Israel's bombardment is justified or not, is another discussion.

*Hamas does not equate to the all the Palestinian people.

 

[Kettch]

Hamas apparently is warning of a "massive" rocket attack against Tel Aviv in just a few minutes.

They gave a warning? It's all good then.

Spoiler

/Israeli logic

 

[Quotient]

They gave a warning? It's all good then.

Spoiler

/Israeli logic

If Hamas fire the rockets at Israeli military bases, outposts or missile launchers, then yes it is all good.

 

[danwarb]

I think the distinction people are trying to make, and which i agree with, is that the IDF, as an organisation, is not deliberately targeting civilians, if they were you would see a much large death toll, instead they are making attempt to prevent civilian deaths, but as this is a war, civilians are always caught in the cross-fire. Whereas Hamas*, is deliberately placing weapon caches, rocket launchers etc in densely populated urban areas, they know full well that it makes it harder for Israel to destroy and results in civilian deaths. They implore civilians to create human shields, and suggest dying as one will make you a martyr.

Now whether you believe Israel's bombardment is justified or not, is another discussion.

*Hamas does not equate to the all the Palestinian people.

That distinction is mostly down to resources and a sprinkle of bullshit. These operations just create more people who have had their lives destroyed by Israeli airstrikes. It won't stop the rockets or desperate retaliation to occupation and oppression. That's not how people work. How is this seen a good strategy after all this time? You want peace, the side with all the power needs to make it happen and help lift the Palestinians.

 

[JordanN]

If Hamas is now attacking Israel's capital, Israel needs to go all in and take control of Gaza.

I said it before, if Mexico launched rockets at Texas or Washington D.C, Obama would quickly demand Mexico be turned into a 51st state and nobody would say anything. No reason for Israel to put up with this nonsense for 5+ years now when other countries would deal with it in a day.

 

[Chumly]

If Hamas fire the rockets at Israeli military bases, outposts or missile launchers, then yes it is all good.

No its been clearly shown that if you give warnings by Israeli logic everything is ok. It doesn't matter who or what you hit.

 

[Partial Gamification]

[G]iven that this war is happening, let’s focus on the narrower question of how to minimize civilian deaths, now and in future conflicts. How bad is this war compared to others? Are Israel’s attacks indiscriminate?

First, it’s important not to get consumed by whether you love or hate Israel. There will be other wars in other places. [...]

1. The casualty rate. [...]
So far in Gaza, Israel has hit approximately 1,100 sites. Using the high-end casualty count, that’s an average of one civilian death for every 14 to 15 sites struck. In the 1999 Kosovo air war, Human Rights Watch found that NATO had killed approximately 500 civilians in attacks on more than 900 targets. That’s more than one death for every two targets hit. In the invasion of Iraq, HRW cited a low-end estimate of about 3,500 civilian deaths but attributed most of these to ground combat. There seems to be no separate count for the bombing campaign. In Libya, according to the U.N. Human Rights Council, NATO killed only 72 civilians in 3,327 strike sorties. That’s three times better than Israel’s performance. Because of population density, you’re less likely to hit civilians in Libya than in Gaza. But in a review of the Libya campaign, HRW also credited “the care NATO took in minimizing civilian harm.”

2. Israel’s practices. [...] The “terrorists work from home” rationale raises ugly problems for the rules of war. Israel’s warning procedures, however, could become a model. [...]
But the IDF’s performance seems inconsistent. In one incident, residents say that there was no phone call and that the strike, which killed six people, came only four minutes after the knock. In another case, a video shows just one minute between the knock and the strike. In two of the worst mass-death incidents, one in Khan Yunis and the other in Rafah, residents say there were no warnings. Israel has also killed civilians at sites where no Hamas link has been established. [...]

3. Human shields. [...] It’s not clear how often this has happened or what role Hamas has played. [...]

Do these factors—the fatality rate, the warnings, the shields—make Israel's conduct acceptable? I'll leave that to you. Either way, we need to cut through the propaganda on both sides, analyze the best information on the ground, and put it in context. In some ways, Israel is raising the standards of what can be expected in warfare. Our job is to clarify those standards and hold everybody to them, including Israel.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...look_at_the_death_toll_israel_s_warnings.html

Moral war... without even considering the causes and consequences. Things are not so clear-cut.

edit businessinsider title: Israel May Be Raising The Moral Standards Of Warfare

 

[Rocket Scientist]

If Hamas is now attacking Israel's capital, Israel needs to go all in and take control of Gaza.

I said it before, if Mexico launched rockets at Texas or Washington D.C, Obama would quickly demand Mexico be turned into a 51st state and nobody would say anything. No reason for Israel to put up with this nonsense for 5+ years now when other countries would deal with it in a day.

It must be great to have been born in this millenium.

 

[Abounder]

If Hamas is now attacking Israel's capital, Israel needs to go all in and take control of Gaza.

I said it before, if Mexico launched rockets at Texas or Washington D.C, Obama would quickly demand Mexico be turned into a 51st state and nobody would say anything. No reason for Israel to put up with this non sense for 5+ years now.

This more or less already happens when the cartel brings their violence over to the Texas border, and the Mexican military also helps the USA retaliate.

Palestine/Israel is in a truly terrible situation but yea if you're firing rockets at a city you will get bombed by a western power. That won't ever change, and unfortunately the vicious cycle will continue until a major war, revolution, or genocide breaks out

 

[theignoramus]

They are, but these policies weren't created out of thin air, and these policy makers weren't always pushing for this kind of operation. Go back and look for quotes from five or ten years ago. Better yet, take a few hours and read monthly headlines starting twenty or thirty years ago and all the way to this present day to get a better understanding of how this conflict has developed (or failed to develop) over the years. I'm not condoning the statements you quoted, but in the interest of having a fair discussion you have to understand it's very hard and time consuming for a small number of posters to have to address the basics of this struggle and attempt to establish a common factual ground, while simultaneously fending off criticisms about the latest developments.

30 years ago, Israel was "applying disproportionate force" to Lebanon and 20 years ago, it was happening in the West Bank, with Arafat and the PLO as the main "obstacles" to peace.

 

[zeroOman]

I think the distinction people are trying to make, and which i agree with, is that the IDF, as an organisation, is not deliberately targeting civilians, if they were you would see a much large death toll, instead they are making attempt to prevent civilian deaths, but as this is a war, civilians are always caught in the cross-fire. Whereas Hamas*, is deliberately placing weapon caches, rocket launchers etc in densely populated urban areas, they know full well that it makes it harder for Israel to destroy and results in civilian deaths. They implore civilians to create human shields, and suggest dying as one will make you a martyr.

Now whether you believe Israel's bombardment is justified or not, is another discussion.

*Hamas does not equate to the all the Palestinian people.

100 kills and more than 400 injury and 25 child is dead and u still saying they care... what i am saying this shit isn't working they just make them more mad at the jaw and that why more rocket hamas will send

 

[m_shortpants]

If Hamas is now attacking Israel's capital, Israel needs to go all in and take control of Gaza.

I said it before, if Mexico launched rockets at Texas or Washington D.C, Obama would quickly demand Mexico be turned into a 51st state and nobody would say anything. No reason for Israel to put up with this nonsense for 5+ years now when other countries would deal with it in a day.

But Mexico wouldn't fire missles at the US because it isn't under crushing seige by the US, so your analogy is terrible.

 

[JordanN]

But Mexico wouldn't fire missles at the US because it isn't under crushing seige by the US, so your analogy is terrible.

Poor Hamas. A terror group is not allowed to live free.
You know, most terrorist organizations don't even have a state to call their own. Hamas should feel privileged they actually own a big strip of land, especially right next to their enemy.

 

[Chariot]

Poor Hamas. A terror group is not allowed to live free.
You know, most terrorist organizations don't even have a state to call their own. Hamas should feel privileged they actually own a big strip of land.

Just keep forgetting the people who are not Hamas.

 

[Quotient]

100 kills and more than 400 injury and 25 child is dead and u still saying they care... what i am saying this shit isn't working they just make them more mad at the jaw and that why more rocket hamas will send

This is callous sounding, but that is a remarkably low number of deaths for the number of strikes. As i stated earlier, if the IDF was deliberately targeting civilians the death toll would be 100 fold what it currently is. I ask you, do you honestly believe that the IDF has a policy of intentionally targeting civilians?

I personally would prefer Israel to end its air-strike and for Hamas to give up its long-range weapon cache, but i doubt hamas would give up its weapons and it does seem that israel won't end its air-strikes until it believes that it has destroyed hamas and their long-range weapons.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

No its been clearly shown that if you give warnings by Israeli logic everything is ok. It doesn't matter who or what you hit.

you've been doing some highly selective reading if you think that's been clearly shown or attempted to be shown.

30 years ago, Israel was "applying disproportionate force" to Lebanon and 20 years ago, it was happening in the West Bank, with Arafat and the PLO as the main "obstacles" to peace.

There was no attempt at peace agreements between Israel and the PLO? Was Arafat not present at Oslo?
And a peace agreement with Jordan didn't happen? (and Egypt before that)
Multiple attempts at peace agreements with Fatah didn't happen?

I responded to your post regarding two specific quotes by two political representatives about the current situation by trying to say politely that I do not want to be dragged into this kind of finger pointing, goalpost moving debate.

 

[JordanN]

Just keep forgetting the people who are not Hamas.

Those people shouldn't be fighting Israel/have nothing to do with them. This is like saying "think about the Mexican farmers". So what? You live in your own country. You don't antagonize a sovereign one.

 

[m_shortpants]

Those people shouldn't be fighting Israel/have nothing to do with them. This is like saying "think about the Mexican farmers". So what? You live in your own country. You don't antagonize a sovereign one.

Gaza is not a country. If you think it is you need to do some reading.

I'm confused, what do you think they should do to get statehood? Because in the West Bank no one fires rockets, in fact they cooperate with Israel. And all they get in return are more settlements.

 

[Quotient]

Gaza is not a country. If you think it is you need to do some reading.

I'm confused, what do you think they should do to get statehood? Because in the West Bank no one fires rockets, in fact they cooperate with Israel. And all they get in return are more settlements.

I agree with this, the settlements need to end, at least as a show of good will towards a peace plan.

 

[theignoramus]

Gaza is not a country. If you think it is you need to do some reading.

I'm confused, what do you think they should do to get statehood? Because in the West Bank no one fires rockets, in fact they cooperate with Israel. And all they get in return are more settlements.

they also get the privilege of ubiquitous checkpoints and violent, armed responses to their peaceful protests. It doesnt matter what form of resistance the Palestinians employ, they invariably feel the Israeli boot on their neck.

 

[dripdripsplash]

I saw a documentary a month ago or so, that claimed that they now believe the Pyramids were not build by Jewish slaves, but by poor followers. History is changing, but also being denied. It's difficult to understand or make sense of the claims of Iraelis when they say they are being targeted for ethnic genocide!

Anti-semitism can originally be connected to religion and the thought that the Jews killed Jesus. Throughout history Jews has been blamed for several things; The Black Death, wars, diseases and so on.

The fact that they were not allowed to work in certain fields and therefore becoming bankers and money lenders also had an impact on global anti-semitism. Annoyed or dissatisfied people who owed money to Jews would make them scapegoats and they would quickly be the target if anything bad happened throughout history.

Also in their different societies living in host countries they usually wore clothes and had customs/traditions that quickly cast them as a subculture and as the others making it easier for racism to flourish against them.

Also for the quoted part, are you insinuating that jewish slaves build the pyramids ? I think it has been proven through excavations and whatnot that egyptian workers who got wages and food build them.

 

[JordanN]

Gaza is not a country. If you think it is you need to do some reading.

I'm confused, what do you think they should do to get statehood? Because in the West Bank no one fires rockets, in fact they cooperate with Israel. And all they get in return are more settlements.

Someone posted the Olmert peace plan. They should go back to that and get Israel to accept.

Attacking Israel with the intent of destruction wont give them a state. It doesn't matter if Palestinians slaughter half the Israeli population, we know Israel is a country built on surviving against all odds, why would they give up now and not 50 years ago?

 

[Vast.]

The Palestinians have a right to defend themselves and their land. The illegal Israeli occupiers, which are pretty much run by a terrorist organization, should expect the resistance.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

I'm confused, what do you think they should do to get statehood? Because in the West Bank no one fires rockets, in fact they cooperate with Israel. And all they get in return are more settlements.

This is something I hope we can all agree on. The settlements need to stop.

 

[dripdripsplash]

The next generation of IDF soldiers:

https://storify.com/davidsheen/israeli-army-the-next-generation

 

[JordanN]

The Palestinians have a right to defend themselves and their land. The illegal Israeli occupiers, which are pretty much run by a terrorist organization, should expect the resistance.

If you think Palestinians will get the pre-1947 lands, they wont. Which is pretty ironic. Israel wanted a state, the Palestinians rejected it. They tried to wipe out Israel and lost.

They should just accept the 2008 borders. I don't see what asking for more is going to get them when the 1948 war already set them back by a lot.

 

[GSG Flash]

I'll try to make this quick and simple. In general, barring a small number of exceptions, Jews are not welcome in Arab or Muslim countries.
Here is a list of countries, ranked according to the size of their Jewish population:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_population_by_country#Countries
edit: and here's a list of countries that do not accept Israeli passports (meaning Israelis cannot travel to these destinations as tourists).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_passport#Countries_that_do_not_accept_Israeli_passports

Well that's a fucking lie. Iran has one of the largest Jewish communities in the ME, and, up until last year, the Bahraini ambassador to the US was a Jewish lady. Lots of Jews from the west go to the UAE for vacation.

You do know there's a difference between Jewish and Israeli, right?

 

[Vigilant Walrus]

I'll try to make this quick and simple. In general, barring a small number of exceptions, Jews are not welcome in Arab or Muslim countries.
Here is a list of countries, ranked according to the size of their Jewish population:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_population_by_country#Countries
edit: and here's a list of countries that do not accept Israeli passports (meaning Israelis cannot travel to these destinations as tourists).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_passport#Countries_that_do_not_accept_Israeli_passports

HOLY F**KING SHIT. Jesus christ.


ahh man



@ Amjad - Yes, exactly, I too heard they were not slaves, but workers. They found a tomb some years ago that showed that the works were allowed to be buried since it was a great honor working on the pyramids. It's believed that slaves would not have been allowed that luxury.

 

[dripdripsplash]

I'll try to make this quick and simple. In general, barring a small number of exceptions, Jews are not welcome in Arab or Muslim countries.
Here is a list of countries, ranked according to the size of their Jewish population:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_population_by_country#Countries
edit: and here's a list of countries that do not accept Israeli passports (meaning Israelis cannot travel to these destinations as tourists).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_passport#Countries_that_do_not_accept_Israeli_passports

Jew = Israeli = Not true.

Get your facts right. Iran has a sizable Jewish minority for example.

HOLY F**KING SHIT. Jesus christ.

Thers nothing shocking in the numbers he is showing. All Jews are not Israelis and vice versa. Theres a huge difference.

 

[Linkhero1]

I'll try to make this quick and simple. In general, barring a small number of exceptions, Jews are not welcome in Arab or Muslim countries.
Here is a list of countries, ranked according to the size of their Jewish population:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_population_by_country#Countries
edit: and here's a list of countries that do not accept Israeli passports (meaning Israelis cannot travel to these destinations as tourists).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_passport#Countries_that_do_not_accept_Israeli_passports

The following isn't really true:

In addition, Iran,[29] Kuwait,[30] Lebanon,[31] Libya,[32] Saudi Arabia,[33] Sudan,[34] Syria[35] and Yemen[36] do not allow entry to people with evidence of travel to Israel, or whose passports have either a used or an unused Israeli visa.

I have an American passport with Israeli visa from traveling and never was denied entry. The same goes to members of my family.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

Well that's a fucking lie. Iran has one of the largest Jewish communities in the ME, and, up until last year, the Bahraini ambassador to the US was a Jewish lady. Lots of Jews from the west go to the UAE for vacation.

You do know there's a difference between Jewish and Israeli, right?

Which part is a lie?

I provided sources, including the fact that there are a whopping ten thousand Jews in Iran (who can't invite any Israeli relatives to visit should they want to.)

How many are these Lots of Jews that visit the UAE? And why are Israeli Jews discriminated against?

 

[hukasmokincaterpillar]

The Dahiya Doctrine

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/12/disabled-palestinians-unable-escape-israeli-air-strike

 

[RustyNails]

I'll try to make this quick and simple. In general, barring a small number of exceptions, Jews are not welcome in Arab or Muslim countries.
Here is a list of countries, ranked according to the size of their Jewish population:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_population_by_country#Countries
edit: and here's a list of countries that do not accept Israeli passports (meaning Israelis cannot travel to these destinations as tourists).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_passport#Countries_that_do_not_accept_Israeli_passports

There is a difference between not allowing Jews in a country versus not allowing Israelis in a country. This is the kind of shit that conflates Israelis with Jews and Jews with Israelis, and then when someone speaks out against Israel there is sudden righteous indignation and condemnation along with screams of "Anti-semitism". It's this misinformed, deliberate FUD that is the source of useless comments and confusion on not just internet forums, but every where else.

 

[Quotient]

I wouldn't use Iran has banner of a Muslim country that treats jews well, since the 79 revolution most minorities in iran - Jews, Christians and Baha'is were heavily targeted by government thugs. Regardless, non-muslim religions only make up 2% of Iran's population, with some estimates putting of those Jewish faith around 10,000-20,000. Most Jews fled after the revolution and emigrated to Israel.

Jew = Israeli = Not true.

Get your facts right. Iran has a sizable Jewish minority for example.

Not sure how you define "sizable"?

 

[GSG Flash]

Which part is a lie?

I provided sources, including the fact that there are a whopping ten thousand Jews in Iran (who can't invite any Israeli relatives to visit should they want to.)

How many are these Lots of Jews that visit the UAE? And why are Israeli Jews discriminated against?

Your baseless claim that "Jews are not welcome in Arab or Muslim countries".

You provided Wikipedia links that showed that Israeli citizens are barred from entering certain countries that don't recognize Israel (and that includes non-Jewish Israeli citizens). Where's your proof that Jews, in general, are not allowed into Muslim countries?

Here's a tip, don't bother looking because your claim was a lie.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

Your baseless claim that "Jews are not welcome in Arab or Muslim countries".

You provided Wikipedia links that showed that Israeli citizens are barred from entering certain countries that don't recognize Israel (and that includes non-Jewish Israeli citizens). Where's your proof that Jews in general are not allowed into Muslim countries?

Here's a tip, don't bother looking because your claim was a lie.

My proof is in the other link provided right before the link regarding Israeli passports.
Or do you think it's some kind of freak accident that almost no Jews remain in the Arab or Muslim countries that used to have large Jewish communities during the first half of the twentieth century?

 

[MacNille]

The next generation of IDF soldiers:

https://storify.com/davidsheen/israeli-army-the-next-generation

being at war your whole existent will not make you tolerable to the other side.

Edit. Of course it is not an excuse to be that way.

 

[GSG Flash]

My proof is in the other link provided right before the link regarding Israeli passports.
Or do you think it's some kind of freak accident that almost no Jews remain in the Arab or Muslim countries that used to have large Jewish communities during the first half of the twentieth century?

That's not proof of your claim. Again, you said "Jews are not welcome in Arab or Muslim countries", which is a broad claim considering the number of Muslim countries in this world. What's your proof that Jews aren't welcome in, for example, Malaysia?

You tried to equate being Israeli and being Jewish to support your false argument, but we both well know that Israeli and Jewish aren't the same thing.

 

[RustyNails]

My proof is in the other link provided right before the link regarding Israeli passports.
Or do you think it's some kind of freak accident that almost no Jews remain in the Arab or Muslim countries that used to have large Jewish communities during the first half of the twentieth century?

Dont try to shift the topic. This statement

Jews are not welcome in Arab or Muslim countries.

is demonstrably false.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

That's not proof of your claim. Again, you said "Jews are not welcome in Arab or Muslim countries", which is a broad claim considering the number of Muslim countries in this world. What's your proof that Jews aren't welcome in, for example, Malaysia?

You tried to equate being Israeli and being Jewish to support your false argument, but we both well know that Israeli and Jewish aren't the same thing.

Dude, really, learn some history. You can start by looking up Jewish communities in Arab or Muslim countries in the beginning of the twentieth century. Compare those numbers to the numbers today, then read up on what happened to each of those communities and why they remain so negligibly small?




Edit: also how is it everyone quoting my claim is only quoting the second half of the sentence?

 

[dripdripsplash]

Dude, really, learn some history. You can start by looking up Jewish communities in Arab or Muslim countries in the beginning of the twentieth century. Compare those numbers to the numbers today, then read up on what happened to each of those communities and why they remain so negligibly small?




Edit: also how is it everyone quoting my claim is only quoting the second half of the sentence?

Your equating declining numbers of Jews in ME countries to them not being welcome there.

Maybe it has something to do with that a state for Jews was founded in the meantime ?

 

[GSG Flash]

Dude, really, learn some history. You can start by looking up Jewish communities in Arab or Muslim countries in the beginning of the twentieth century. Compare those numbers to the numbers today, then read up on what happened to each of those communities and why they remain so negligibly small?

Dude, really, stop changing the damn topic. You said "Jews are not welcome in Arab or Muslim countries" implying that, TODAY, Jews are not welcome in any Muslim country, which is a false statement.

You have yet to post any proof that backs your statement up. By your logic, Jews are not welcome in Portugal because there are less than 50% of Jews remaining there from the amount there were in 1900.

 

[theignoramus]

The Dahiya Doctrine

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/12/disabled-palestinians-unable-escape-israeli-air-strike

It's imperative that people understand this. For those who cant be bothered to read the article, a neighbour of the shelter for disabled persons speculates that a man living in that residence "may have been affiliated with Islamic Jihad"
If that's true, then Israel made the deliberate decision to destroy an entire residential building because an "affiliate" of Islamic Jihad possibly lived there.
That is the literal application of the Dahiyah doctrine: disproportionate force and collective punishment. Somebody on our kill list might be living in this building? Level it.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

That's not proof of your claim. Again, you said "Jews are not welcome in Arab or Muslim countries", which is a broad claim considering the number of Muslim countries in this world. What's your proof that Jews aren't welcome in, for example, Malaysia?

You tried to equate being Israeli and being Jewish to support your false argument, but we both well know that Israeli and Jewish aren't the same thing.

Evidently this is why Jews aren't too welcome in Malaysia. Thanks for teaching me something new!

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Malaysia

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

Your equating declining numbers of Jews in ME countries to them not being welcome there.

Maybe it has something to do with that a state for Jews was founded in the meantime ?

That can't possibly be the reason, because, as you said yourself, Jews and Israelis are not at all the same, remember?
There's a huge difference!

 

[dripdripsplash]

And on the topic of Hamas using human shields. Amnesty and Human Rights Watch has examined and investigated these claims after Operation Cast Lead in 2009.

Amnesty: "Contrary to claims by Israel WE FOUND NO EVIDENCE of Hamas using Palestinians as human shields but a number of examples of Israeli troops holding Palestinian civilians hostage while using their homes as firing positions."

http://goo.gl/uVpAac

HRW: "To date, the Israeli government and IDF have denied wrongdoing for civilian deaths during the Gaza fighting, saying the military did everything possible to minimize civilian casualties. One element of this argument is that Hamas placed non-combatants in danger by hiding and engaging Israeli forces from amidst civilians, making it impossible for Israeli forces to attack without causing “collateral damage.” As noted, in the 19 IDF attacks Human Rights Watch documented, selected to highlight policies that led to unlawful deaths, WE FOUND NO EVIDENCE that Hamas or other Palestinian fighters were present at the time of the attack."

http://goo.gl/CmedCC

EDIT: But I do have my suspicions that these organizations have anti-semitic tendencies so be careful with their reporting.

That can't possibly be the reason, because, as you said yourself, Jews and Israelis are not at all the same, remember?
There's a huge difference!

But we do agree that alot of Israelis are Jews. Not all Jews are Israelis though. That's the difference.

 

[m_shortpants]

Someone posted the Olmert peace plan. They should go back to that and get Israel to accept.

Attacking Israel with the intent of destruction wont give them a state. It doesn't matter if Palestinians slaughter half the Israeli population, we know Israel is a country built on surviving against all odds, why would they give up now and not 50 years ago?

Sure. But Olmert was a lame duck and the current Israeli politicians will not accept it, no way.

I'll ask again - what should they do? Because as demonstrated in the West Bank, doing nothing get's them nothing, in fact it gets their land taken away.

 

[JordanN]

Sure. But Olmert was a lame duck and the current Israeli politicians will not accept it, no way.

I'll ask again - what should they do? Because as demonstrated in the West Bank, doing nothing get's them nothing, in fact it gets their land taken away.

They need to elect someone who can push for peace. That's literally the only way to engage with Israel.
By virtue, if Palestinians collectively agree to stop fighting, the representative can finally have evidence. "See, we gave up our arms. We're serious this time".

 

[m_shortpants]

They need to elect someone who can push for peace. That's literally the only way to engage with Israel.
By virtue, if Palestinians collectively agree to stop fighting, the representative can finally have evidence. "See, we gave up our arms. We're serious this time".

You just described exactly what happened with the PLO in the West Bank. And it's provided them nothing.