People tend to forget what happened yesterday or the days past and only focus on the current day. Let me tell that I and with me many, won't forget how Israel killed 6 children within 1 family, how israel bombed a centre for disabled people and how israel or its defenders have the guts to say all these people are protecting weapons or that Hamas is too blame for it solely. The disregard for the lives of these people that many seem to have, based on their arguments to defend the attacks, is fucking sickening. Man up to the mistakes of you country and the war crimes they are commiting now and stop putting all the blame on the other party when it's the IDF that pulls the trigger when they fully well understand they are most likely to kill mostly civilians.
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Breaking: Israel launches Operation Protective Edge against Hamas in Gaza
- Thread starter RustyNails
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SliceSabre
Banned
Isn't there an argument made that if Hamas soldiers don't want their Aunt, Uncle, mother to get killed in the cross-fire of war that they shouldn't get on their relative's roof, start firing rockets into Israel then run away and leave their families to die when Israel responds?
I mean someone needs to give me a good reason why Hamas insist on doing this? I mean couldn't they just fire the rockets from opens fields and stop being cowards and trying to use civilians for protection? I see people claiming Israel is breaking international law by involving civilians but those same laws also state that if you launch military strikes (rocket attacks) from a civilian positions it becomes a valid military target.
I mean someone needs to give me a good reason why Hamas insist on doing this? I mean couldn't they just fire the rockets from opens fields and stop being cowards and trying to use civilians for protection? I see people claiming Israel is breaking international law by involving civilians but those same laws also state that if you launch military strikes (rocket attacks) from a civilian positions it becomes a valid military target.
Where is the post?
Even if I ignore everything else and we assume your post is a factual and accurate representation of activities, why should their family or neighbours be punished for their stupidity?
CaptainMellow
Banned
Israel is committing war crimes day in day out, bullying the Palestinians of the little land they have to cling onto, it baffles me that the current state of Israel are not considered terrorists, as every action they take is to destroyed innocent lives. A huge military force against a group who fire the equivalent of fireworks compared to the Bombardment of Palestine.
This is so true. Israel is a neocon's wet dream.
theignoramus
Member
Israel terrorizing patients at a geriatric hospital:
http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/nora-barrows-friedman/israel-fires-warning-missiles-gaza-city-geriatric-hospital
http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/nora-barrows-friedman/israel-fires-warning-missiles-gaza-city-geriatric-hospital
Hoya Destroyer
Member
As a casual observer of whats going on over there, your post makes sense to me.
I also cant help but think that the Palestinians have zero chance of being considered victims in this whole conflict, whilst they continue to fire rockets at Israel.
Terra Firma
Banned
So, if a gang is attacking people in a city, entire neighbourhoods should be leveled?
Cheesecakebobby
Banned
If there is one thing I hate about discussions about this conflict it is that practically everyone resorts to silly metaphors. Can we all, regardless of stance, agree to stop saying stuff like "So if your 2000 year old Mexican neighbour started launching fireworks from your garden you wouldn't punch a baby? NAZI!"
Yes, this argument is made by Israel, all the time, it's problematic though.
Hamas is fighting in the only way it can, don't get me wrong, it's a war crime shooting on civilian population, but their options are quite literally, do that, or do nothing.
If you think Palestinians has no right to fight for removing the blockade and for Palestinian independence in the west bank, that's a different discussion.
If you think they do, complaining that they don't "fight fair" against such an overwhelmingly superior military force is akin to when the British complained that the Zulu weren't fighting like gentlemen.
Cheesecakebobby
Banned
But the blockade didn't really exist until a militarised fundamentalist group took over the Gaza strip, right? And the blockade has been eased during ceasefires? I might be wrong, but it looks like it is precisely the fighting that causes the blockade to continue and if the goal was to have the blockade removed, stopping attacks would be the most effective strategy.
I also think it is contentious to call indiscriminate attacks on a civilian population 'fighting' for anything. I do believe Palestinians have a right to fight against settlements but only in the figurative sense through civilised means. I believe the civilians in Gaza also have the right to fight against their Hamas leaders who are ensuring their suffering continues and worsens.
The blockade has existed since 1989: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_blockade#Background
It did get worse after Hamas came into power, so you are correct in that aspect.
Cheesecakebobby
Banned
Oh I see. I had never really looked into it. I thought that the pull out in 2005 made entry and exit a lot easier than it was and easier than it is now, maybe that part is true. Anyway, I guess we can only speculate how the situation would have developed if Hamas hadn't come to power and enacted its campaigns. I can't accept the formulation that Hamas's attacks are their only option against a blockade, when the state of the blockade is tied directly to their propensity to attack.
No. That's a horrible argument to make. Circumstances dictate actions. These are real people on both sides, not just the Israeli side. The rockets, hatred and resistance will obviously continue for as long as the Palestinians are desperate and brutalised. How many Palestinians haven't had family killed by Israeli air strikes now? Please leave your home because we're going to destroy it. Nice.
You want to play who started you're going to get to '67 and '48 real quick, and that's not only pointless, but doesn't really help Israel's case.
Both sides tend to pick a random point in time and pretend that's when it all started, nevermind what happened before, it was all peace and awesomeness.
And even if someone would try to play that game (which again, I think misses the real causes of the current round of escalated violence) it's very hard to argue that the Hamas leadership in Gaza started this.
It started either in the murdering of the 3 people in the west bank (might be done by Hamas, good chance that it was, we don't know, but there is zero evidence that it was something planned by the leadership in Gaza as an attempt to escalate the conflict) or by Israel's very harsh punitive response to it.
Also, let's not pretend that Israel would be cool with attack against military targets, when IDF soldiers die from Palestinian attacks Israel reacts more harshly than it does to your "normal" shelling of southern cities.
Put yourself in the Palestinian shoes for a second, what would you have them do?
Sit in quiet and do nothing?
They tried it for 20 years after 1967 (and about 20 years after 1948) and they got nothing.
Israel pushed them to a desperate, hopeless situation and they react in the only way they can, they quite literally has no other way.
Their rockets are not accurate or destructive enough to hurt military targets, if they shoot them from the open they'll all get killed immediately, what is your suggestion to them?
p.s.
When they tried to go to the UN or try to promote international boycott it was "diplomatic terrorism" and Israel reacted harshly (tightened the blockade, reduce the number of work permits in the west bank, expanded the settlements).
Don't get me wrong, I think boycott/international pressure would be more morally justifiable and effective, but they are unable to get any traction on that front.
Cheesecakebobby
Banned
If the question is 'should Hamas do nothing?' then the answer is yes. Sometimes inaction is the best course of action. Many people would be alive today and the blockade would be less tight. It wouldn't solve all the injustices but the practical situation would be better.
Or rather than doing nothing, focus on improving the quality of life for one's people. Show you are capable of peacefully building a better future. Protect your children in the hopes they will mature in a world where the leaders on both sides can finally trust each other enough to sit at the negotiating table, don't throw that future away because you have a lust for revenge for perceived grievances.
Or rather than doing nothing, focus on improving the quality of life for one's people. Show you are capable of peacefully building a better future. Protect your children in the hopes they will mature in a world where the leaders on both sides can finally trust each other enough to sit at the negotiating table, don't throw that future away because you have a lust for revenge for perceived grievances.
Hoya Destroyer
Member
Is there a chance the rocket fire coming from Hamas gives the Palestinians any kind of bargaining leverage? I can see it results in a few Israeli deaths, many Palestinian deaths and makes Palestinians look like indiscriminate killers.
None of those things seem like they lead towards solving this problem.
None of those things seem like they lead towards solving this problem.
Israel is refusing to negotiate with Hamas, it is a stated goal of Israel to topple that regime.
Big part of the current round of escalation is an Israeli attempt to sever the newly formed ties between Gaza and the West Bank.
I think it would be great if Israel was willing to lift the blockade in exchange for a cease fire, in fact, I think that what Israel needs to do, but it doesn't.
The Palestinians only got anything out of Israel with violence.
It's sad, I wish it wasn't the case, but that's the lesson Israel had taught them over the years.
Q
qizah
Unconfirmed Member
That's easier said than done when you have a neighbour like Israel.
Hard to build a future when it gets bulldozed.
Cheesecakebobby
Banned
Not in Gaza. Rather than spending all that effort and money on thousands of rockets, tunnels, luxury housing for Hamas leaders, investments could be made into peaceful endeavors. They could show the world they are not the savages Israel wants to portray them as. The best way to attack Israel is to show they are trying to be peaceful - see the bad press Israel gets now, imagine if they continued the way they are now yet there was no terror organisation running the Gaza strip.
Can you give examples of goals achieved by the Palestinians through violence?
The peace talks, whatever limited autonomy they got in the west bank and the withdrawal from gaza.
When they were sitting quietly in peace from 1967 until their first Intifada, they were pretty much ignored by Israel and the world.
Israel official stance was pretty much that there is "no such thing as Palestinian people" (that's a direct quote from Israel's prime minister if you're wondering).
Cheesecakebobby
Banned
Wouldn't some claim that those were in spite of terror attacks, not because of them?
Partial Gamification
Banned
The point is how it was interpreted/spun by both sides.
Would that someone be you?
I mean there is nothing to support that, in 20 years they only things they got are military rule and settlements, but I'd rather not argue against points that theoretical people might make, you're a handful as it is
.Cheesecakebobby
Banned
I just don't see how it could be proven that terror attacks led to those specific actions. I can't imagine any of the Israeli leadership would have admitted anything of the sort, I guess Partial Gamification is right in saying it comes down to how each side spun the events so the most you can say is that militants claimed it was their actions that led to Israeli concessions.
Will every one know it was Hamas who force Israel to leave Gaza.... but how i don't know
You can't prove anything, but they tried "sitting quietly and do nothing" for 20 years and got nothing, than they try resistance and got something.
If you were in their position, would you say "let's try that do nothing thing again"?
And shit, look at the west bank, there is very little violence in the west bank right now, with the palestinian authority working actively with Israeli security forces to stop terror attacks, what do they get?
More settlements.
As far as aware the settlements were being built all the way through the intifadas as well, so I don't think that's a very accurate observation
I would say the only reason the Palestinians made any head way in how the world sees this conflict is because of the fact that the PLO is actively trying to stop attacks from it's controlled territory, and moreover I think a far more effective way to cause pressure on Israel to change the situation is through making other countries pressure Israel, rather then violence
You don't think the Intifada had anything to do with Israel recognizing that the Palestinian people exists and entering a negotiation with them?
But yeah, I agree completely that international pressure is the way to go, they are trying, Israel react pretty harshly to such attempts (and blame anyone who support them of being an anti-semite), but they aren't able to get much traction on that front.
peace deal with the Palestinians (at least a just deal that the Palestinians would accept), and looking at political and demographic trends in Israel, I don't see it changing, at least not on its own.
I see only two ways for this to change -
The one being international pressure, I'm certain that even the threat of a serious sanctions would be enough.
The other is violence, serious violence that hit hard at the heart of Israel. You can fuck the border towns in the south all you want, Israeli governments had always pretty much ignored them, well before the Hamas was born.
I adhore violence, so I really hope it's the former.
I'm certain the intifada had lots to do with Israel recognizing the Palestinians , but you said the lack of violence from the fatah is letting Israel build settlements, that is not the case, since they were being built when they were carrying out terror attacks as we'll.
I doubt violence will help, since all the polls I remember seeing point to a hardening of stances ,and a change too more right leaning views every time an intifada or serious violence broke out actually.
I'd wager that the fact the Israeli public is heading further and further toward the right has a lot to do with the constant rockets
That is because Israel, and many other countries, have listed Hamas as a terrorist organisation, and Hamas's mandate is to wipe out Israel. It also doesn't help the situation when Iran (Israel's arch nemesis) funds Hamas through weapons.
Israel has been willing to negotiate with the Palestinians, as has Palestinian leaders been willing to negotiate with Israel, it is Hamas that Israel refuses to cooperate with (and for good reasons).
And that why Abbas stopped the peace talk and moved to the UN and after that they start to threaten him "USA and Israel' with some crap if he continue that.
the funny thing the USA keep saying u can't get a country without finishing negotiations with Israel as if the past 60 years was just show for them.
I think it's painfully obvious that the approach Israel is taking with Hamas isn't working.
We've been going through these rounds of periodic escalating violence for 8 years now, it only brought death and suffering and it didn't stop the rocket fire.
This round of violence will achieve nothing too.
You can't bomb people into stop hating you.
Yeah, that's not working in the West Bank.
RustyNails
Member
What about the fact that Hamas was democratically elected?
MisterFalcon
Member
Eight years ago for a four year term.
The only losers out of this are the Palestinians - it's a propaganda victory for Hamas and a victory for Israel - in that they feel they have weakened Hamas (if only for a short time).
If Hamas truly wish to move towards true peace with Israel they need to disarm and disband.
They feel that, yet all I see on tv are dead civilians and children wrapped in cloth being carried to their graves. Fuck no Hamas will not put down its arms, you think the people trust Israel to do the right thing once they put down their weapons and stop their resistance?
This world is so sad and hypocritical at times.
How is Israel winning?
Unless you're going by death count.
This will change nothing.
You can't keep people oppressed without them resisting, it never happened in history, it will not happen here, you can't bomb people into not hating you, you will get the opposite results.
Israel can negotiate ceasefire tomorrow in exchange for removing the blockade, it is unwilling to do so, and it will continue to get shelled, even ignoring morality and all those dead civilians, this is not a smart course of action.
No matter who you believe is right or wrong, Every rocket that Hamas fires at Israel results in the death and destruction of its own people.
At a certain point Hamas has to realize it will never win its war against Israel, and perhaps look to other avenues to peace ( if peace is really what Hamas wants).
"a victory for Israel - in that they feel they have weakened Hamas (if only for a short time)"
Has the Palestinian resistance got them anything? Instead they get more death and destruction. Israel is the super-power and the Palestinians have nothing to bring to the negotiating table. They may continue their resistance but i'm not sure they'll be much land for them left or much of anything else.
I'm getting tired of people in this thread saying the deaths that ISRAEL is causing is all to blame on Hamas. Have some dignity and stop being so blind.
the Western media tries its best to be as twisted as fucking ever. The news item i just read had the header Hamas continues firing rockets on Israel, in the same article they write how Israel is mostly hitting civilians and how Israel is trying to lower the nr of deaths for the outside world. How is that not the header of the article or the main part?
The worldwide marketing machine of Israel is so powerfull that is has become a reflex for western media to protect them, hopefuly most people now known look trough this nonsense.
This is all still to pay for those lives of the 3 boys that died? The ones Hamas has denied any involvement with? What about the kids that are now dead in Gaza, is there lives worth less?
This world is so sad and hypocritical at times.
hukasmokincaterpillar
Member
Yes, thank you for unpacking that. It's equally imperative, from the state's point of view, to euphemize collective punishment as "collateral damage". To euphemize the population as "human shields". To pretend the Dahiya Doctrine doesn't exist, undercutting their propaganda and leaving the policy laid bare.
Discotheque
Banned
Palestine is well and truly fucked. They will never gain sympathy from US government
If they put an end to conflict completely (which is impossible, oppression always brings about, hell, even warrants violence) hypothetically it wouldn't stop Israel from the illegal settlements or blockade
It's a bully state with world powers backing it Sure it would be nice to see Hamas out of power, but even if Palestine had a more modern leader like Obama they'd still get shat on
If they put an end to conflict completely (which is impossible, oppression always brings about, hell, even warrants violence) hypothetically it wouldn't stop Israel from the illegal settlements or blockade
It's a bully state with world powers backing it Sure it would be nice to see Hamas out of power, but even if Palestine had a more modern leader like Obama they'd still get shat on
I think you missed my argument, which is: The resistance has not gotten the Palestinians any closer to peace and instead has caused them death and destruction. It doesn't matter if you believe that Israel is the cause of those deaths or Hamas. Right now Hamas's rocket fire is not doing the Palestinian people any good. You have the US and the UK supporting Israels right to defend itself, so its not like Israel is going to stop responding to the Hamas rocket fire.
That sure worth all those dead civilians.
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