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[Gemüsepizza]

Israel fired rockets to kill Hamas members in retaliation for the murder of the 3 teenagers. Though would you say that Hamas rocket attacks have been successful? Instead it has resulted in further Israeli strikes which have been devastating.

Edit: Israel say they have evidence of Hamas being involved, but at this point neither side care anymore and are only after blood.

Explain please:

1. Why did Hamas deny involvement, when that is what such organisations usually proudly do?

2. Where is this evidence?

3. Why did the Israeli government surpress information they had shortly after the kidnapping about the kidnapped kids death?

4. Why did they send the military to a crime investigation?

5. Why do you conceal that the IDF searched and devastated hundreds of homes of Palestininas, when they already knew the kids were dead?

6. Why was it okay for the IDF to kill 5 innocent people during their search, among them a kid?

 

[Chariot]

As in generally? Well it's not anything new, it's one of the very reasons they even came to be in the first place. To resist against the continued illegal brutal occupation of Palestine, and against the continued land steal and illegal expansion of Israeli settlements on Palestinian land.

Oh, I just asked Quotient, to see how serious I can take him. But it's also nice to have your perspective.

Israel fired rockets to kill Hamas members in retaliation for the murder of the 3 teenagers. Though would you say that Hamas rocket attacks have been successful? Instead it has resulted in further Israeli strikes which have been devastating.

Edit: Israel say they have evidence of Hamas being involved, but at this point neither side care anymore and are only after blood.

You didn't answer my question at all. Please read again.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

There's never been a conflict where context is as important than the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

It's easy to look at civilians death and say "oh, Israel must be bad. Their number is smaller". It's grade 1 intuition.

But the war Israel fights aren't in the deserts. Or the jungle. Or in some huge isolated wasteland where it's just 2 armies going at each other. No. The battlefield literally takes place in a neighborhood.

Why would it be of shock we're going to see civilians die and Israelis not so much? It's unavoidable unless Hamas does fight professionally and comes out to the open. Other wise, it shouldn't be Israel's fault, that their enemy refuses to face them 1 on 1, with no civilians to act as shields.

Yeah, keep trying. The whole world looks through your twisted world view, how you want to take away responsibility from the IDF for the death of all these people. The whole world sees who is killing them.

 

[nib95]

Hamas Spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri: Human-Shield Policy Is Effecive

Disgusting.

Please don't ever post anything from MEMRI. It is partly founded by a former Israeli military intelligence officer and is essentially little more than a propaganda portal. Also, in that vide the speaker states that people willingly go to the roofs of their homes to protect their homes from destruction even if they face death. That is not the same as human shielding. If people choose to sacrifice their lives because they have nothing left to lose, that is their onus to bare.

 

[JordanN]

Its easy for you to say, hamas has no advantage what so ever. They're fighting desperately.

Hamas has tons of advantages. I'd argue, even more than the IDF.

They know Gaza inside out. In fact, during the 2009 Gaza war, one of the big concerns Israel had going into Gaza were tunnels. Hamas could for example, shoot rockets from a mosque. They then, quickly go into a tunnel and exit to a safe place.

Now when Israel attacks the mosque (because their infared cameras saw Hamas was inside), they would destroy the mosque but Hamas would have fled. People would then see Israel as the bad guys when it was Hamas who quickly moved tunnel to tunnel, shooting rockets at them.

 

[squidyj]

There's never been a conflict where context is as important than the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

It's easy to look at civilians death and say "oh, Israel must be bad. Their number is smaller". It's grade 1 intuition.

But the war Israel fights aren't in the deserts. Or the jungle. Or in some huge isolated wasteland where it's just 2 armies going at each other. No. The battlefield literally takes place in a neighborhood.

Why would it be of shock we're going to see civilians die and Israelis not so much? It's unavoidable unless Hamas does fight professionally and comes out to the open. Other wise, it shouldn't be Israel's fault, that their enemy refuses to face them 1 on 1, with no civilians to act as shields.

what open?

 

[Gemüsepizza]

Hamas has tons of advantages. I'd argue, even more than the IDF.

They know Gaza inside out. In fact, during the 2009 Gaza war, one of the big concerns Israel had going into Gaza were tunnels. Hamas could for example, shoot rockets from a mosque. They then, quickly go into a tunnel and exit to a safe place.

Now when Israel attacks the mosuqe (because their infared cameras saw Hamas was inside), they would destroy the mosque but Hamas would have fled.

Please explain how an "infrared camera" can spot Hamas in a mosque. What are you talking about?

 

[Quotient]

What a fucked up logic you have. IDF drops 800 tons of explosives in 48 hours on an area of the size of Detroit. Over 160 people dead. 70+% innocent civilians. Of those, 30% children. IDF's fault? Nope. This is pure evil. There is nothing you can say that justifies the killing of all those innocent people, of all those children.

For an organization aiming to kill as many civilians as possible that is sure a small number of deaths in relation to strikes and the dense urban nature of Gaza.

Right now Israel is in control and nothing to lose in this conflict. All of the major powers (us, uk, Germany, France etc )have supported Israel's right to strike Gaza. No one is on the Palestinian side, no one, and firing rockets at Israel is not winning them anything. The Palestinian people only have themselves and their leadership, and Hamas is not doing anything to prevent its own people from dying.

 

[RangerX]

This is why I love Norman Finkelstein

Finklestein is a bastion of morality and truth. Great admirer of his.

 

[zeroOman]

Look back a few pages, the hospital and center for disabled have been discussed here.

what about the phosphor they shot at the school in the 2008 oh wait here is the video


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2rnDehskQ0

or this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Frmdu-Gqh8E

and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Frmdu-Gqh8E

and here were they shot hospital in this war
http://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/hospital-missiles-volunteers.html

and here in 2009 war

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...t-Gaza-hospitals-and-UN-aid-headquarters.html

 

[TarNaru33]

What a fucked up logic you have. IDF drops 800 tons of explosives in 48 hours on an area of the size of Detroit. Over 160 people dead. 70+% innocent civilians. Of those, 30% children. IDF's fault? Nope. This is pure evil. There is nothing you can say that justifies the killing of all those innocent people, of all those children.

No justification in the death of any civilian, only understandings.

Question, before I write more.
Why is Hamas firing rockets on Israel?

If you mean currently, it is because Israeli mass arrest of Palestinians, especially those that were agreed to be released in an earlier deal.

Not sure how that aides anything though. Are you saying it is okay they can shoot rockets in mass with no true target just because Israel was in the wrong first?

 

[Quotient]

Oh, I just asked Quotient, to see how serious I can take him. But it's also nice to have your perspective.

You didn't answer my question at all. Please read again.

You asked what started this current skirmish. Did I miss something.

FYI. I'm on my mobile so it's hard to keep up and I'm not very fast typing.

 

[Pilgor]

Please don't ever post anything from MEMRI. It is partly founded by a former Israeli military intelligence officer and is essentially little more than a propaganda portal. Also, in that vide the speaker states that people willingly go to the roofs of their homes to protect their homes from destruction even if they face death. That is not the same as human shielding. If people choose to sacrifice their lives because they have nothing left to lose, that is their onus to bare.

Yet they encourage every Palestinian to act as a human shield.

 

[GYODX]

Question, before I write more.
Why is Hamas firing rockets on Israel?

Please don't conflate Hamas' goals with the very real and legitimate struggles of the Palestinian people as a whole.

As their Charter quite literally says, Hamas' ultimate goal is the dismantlement of Israel as a State and the creation of an Islamic State in its place. By putting rocket attacks and other acts of terrorism committed by Hamas in the same category as the Palestinians' struggle for statehood, you do the Palestinian cause a disservice.

 

[Chariot]

If you mean currently, it is because Israeli mass arrest of Palestinians, especially those that were agreed to be released in an earlier deal.

Not sure how that aides anything though. Are you saying it is okay they can shoot rockets in mass with no true target just because Israel was in the wrong first?

As I wrote above. I simply want to confirm how he answers. Which could already be altered, since I explained twice already what I asked this for.

You asked what started this current skirmish. Did I miss something.

FYI. I'm on my mobile so it's hard to keep up and I'm not very fast typing.

No exactly.

Question, before I write more.
Why is Hamas firing rockets on Israel?

You answered me with a text why Israel is firing on Hamas. But I asked why Hamas was firing on Israel in the first place. Simple.

 

[nib95]

Hamas has tons of advantages. I'd argue, even more than the IDF.

What sort of a disingenuous and daft assertion is this?

An organisation with crude, generally low grade rockets as their only source of defence, versus one of the most advanced military outfits in the world, with advanced satellite and spying technology, fighter jets and unmanned drones, tanks, advanced missiles and artillery, well equipped and highly trained ground groups, one of the most advanced missile defence systems in the world, a tremendous military and economic budget, and near complete control of the tactical and logistics portals available to the occupants of the opposition, including near complete control of Palestinian supplies, air space, trade, humanitarian aid, road and network usage, electricity, docks and so on and so on, you're claiming has less advantages than their opposition?

I mean, really? That is a level of intellectual dishonesty that is absolutely gobsmacking and truly appalling.

 

[Quotient]

Explain please:

1. Why did Hamas deny involvement, when that is what such organisations usually proudly do?

2. Where is this evidence?

3. Why did the Israeli government surpress information they had shortly after the kidnapping about the kidnapped kids death?

4. Why did they send the military to a crime investigation?

5. Why do you conceal that the IDF searched and devastated hundreds of homes of Palestininas, when they already knew the kids where dead?

6. Why was it okay for the IDF to kill 5 innocent people during their search, among them a kid?

None of that is acceptable. I don't deny that Israel has done in shitty stuff and continue to do so.

 

[GYODX]

Yea, I think it would be wise for me not to react to your posts anymore.



What he means is that it's illegal under International law to attack Hospitals during war times, a doctor said in a report that this is the 3rd time Israel has attacked them. Do you have any proof that rockets were fired from this hospital?

And as I just demonstrated when I cited the Geneva Convention, hospitals lose that protection when they are used for military purposes.

Although it is widely recognized that Hamas uses hospitals and other civilian infrastructure as weapons caches and rocket launch sites, I do not know if that is the case here.

 

[Pilgor]

only source of defence

Hamas is not on the defensive. They have the unilateral power to end the current conflict by simply not firing rockets.

 

[JordanN]

Please explain how an "infrared camera" can spot Hamas in a mosque. What are you talking about?

It's gonna be a while. Because youtube makes it hard to sort through old videos.

But I distinctly remember watching a military CG that showed how Hamas built a tunnel exiting out of a building, and they were caught on camera fleeing the scene. I might be imagining the "infared camera" for just the standard aerial camera.

what open?

The negev is a desert that separates Israel and Gaza. If it was another country, they would have to cross that to fight Israel.

 

[nib95]

Hamas is not on the defensive. They have the unilateral power to end the current conflict by simply not firing rockets.

That doesn't end shit. Because as all the evidence shows, whether Hamas fires rockets or not, whether there is a ceasefire or not, Israel CONTINUE to dismantle, destroy and displace Palestinian people and their homes en masse on a week by week basis, and continue not only their occupation, but the expansion of it, in stealing more and more Palestinian land.

This is FACT.

You can trace back the UN reports as far as you like, and one thing you'll see is that Israel has barely ever taken a break in the destruction of Palestinian property and their expansion projects. Week in week out, for years and years they've propagated the land steal, with only a few weeks break here and there. And even in the middle of ceasefires they continued. Each and every time.

Again, that is FACT.

Feel free to go through all the reports each and every week and see for yourself.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=119799449#post119799449

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=120296023&posted=1#post120296023

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=558148

 

[Quotient]

That doesn't end shit. Because as all the evidence shows, whether Hamas fires rockets or not, whether there is a ceasefire or not, Israel CONTINUE to dismantle, destroy and displace Palestinian people and their homes en masse on a week by week basis, and continue not only their occupation, but the expansion of it, in stealing more and more Palestinian land.

This is FACT.

You can trace back the UN reports as far as you like, and one thing you'll see is that Israel has barely ever taken a break in the destruction of Palestinian property and their expansion projects. Week in week out, for years and years they've propagated the land steal, with only a few weeks break here and there. And even in the middle of ceasefires they continued. Each and every time.

Again, that is FACT.

So is the current rocket fire doing anything to improve the situation?

 

[nib95]

So is the current rocket fire doing anything to improve the situation?

That is besides the point. In no realm of reality would they, or any people of a nation, be expected to sit of their asses idly as an aggressive and brutal occupation continues it's colonisation throughout their lands. In that respect Hamas is Palestine's only real resistance.

 

[Pilgor]

That doesn't end shit. Because as all the evidence shows, whether Hamas fires rockets or not, whether there dis a ceasefire or not, Israel CONTINUE to dismantle, destroy and displace Palestinian people and their homes en masse, and continue not only their occupation, but the expansion of it in stealing more and more Palestinian land.

This is FACT.

You can trace back the UN reports as far as you like, and one thing you'll see is that Israel has barely ever taken a break in their destruction of Palestinian property and their expansion projects. Week in week out, for years and years they've propagated the land steal, with only a few weeks break here and there. And even in the middle of ceasefires they continued. Each and every time.

Again, that is FACT.

I said current conflict. This thread is about Operation Protective Edge. Do not pretend that the airstrikes would continue in Gaza if the rockets stopped. There would not be another casualty.

This is FACT.

And again, just for you, Is Hamas Trying to Get Gazans Killed?

The Israelis did not impose a blockade on Gaza right away. That came later, when it became clear that Palestinian groups were considering using their newly liberated territory as a launching pad for attacks. In the days after withdrawal, the Israelis encouraged Gaza’s development. A group of American Jewish donors paid $14 million for 3,000 greenhouses left behind by expelled Jewish settlers and donated them to the Palestinian Authority. The greenhouses were soon looted and destroyed, serving, until today, as a perfect metaphor for Gaza’s wasted opportunity.

 

[bigboss370]

Hamas has tons of advantages. I'd argue, even more than the IDF.

ho-ly. shit.

 

[LNBL]

And as I just demonstrated when I cited the Geneva Convention, hospitals lose that protection when they are used for military purposes.

Although it is widely recognized that Hamas uses hospitals and other civilian infrastructure as weapons caches and rocket launch sites, I do not know if that is the case here.

You might have demonstrated it, but without sources that Hamas actually fired from this hospital it means nothing. What is left is that we have a hospital full of elderly left in shock and several civilian deaths.

I said current conflict. This thread is about Operation Protective Edge. Do not pretend that the airstrikes would continue in Gaza if the rockets stopped. There would not be another casualty.

This is FACT.

And again, just for you, Is Hamas Trying to Get Gazans Killed?

That is up for debate and not a given fact

 

[LNBL]

Doulbe post

 

[JordanN]

Sorry guys, there's too many videos and I can't watch them all.

I did find other examples of Hamas acting cowardly in the mean time:
Hamas using white flags to fight

 

[nib95]

I said current conflict. This thread is about Operation Protective Edge. Do not pretend that the airstrikes would continue in Gaza if the rockets stopped. There would not be another casualty.

Please try and find me better sources. You posted MEMRI earlier whom I told you was partly formed by an ex Israeli Intelligence officer, and I can't say I'm somewhat skeptical of this new Bloomberg View source. Do you have links to UN ground reports of the incident, or perhaps any better sources for the information? Not that it changes anything.

And it doesn't matter whether Israel's bombardment of Palestine by missiles continued or not, because the fact of the matter is, their illegal expansion programmes and the demolition of Palestinian homes and structures would continue, and has continued for years and years almost without end. That is the fundamental issue here. This other stuff is just dressing by Israel to try and destabilise Palestine and make peace negations or processes harder and harder.


Here's one of the posts of mine I linked above. Tell me, do you honestly think Israel is interested in peace? What reason could they possibly have to want peace, when peace would mean the end to their land steal and settlement expansions, especially when they have the ultimate upper hand and so few casualties and deaths comparatively speaking.

I don't know how you don't see the contradiction there were you credit one for doing something you lambaste the other for doing.

Because Hamas was able to conform to the ceasefire in most respects up until Israel turned up the rate of it's illegal expansion programmes, and was actually responsible for breaking the ceasefire in the first place.

People forget the things that led up to the break in the 2012 ceasefire. Here are the UN reports leading up to it.

http://www.ochaopt.org/reports.aspx?id=104

Protection of Civilians Weekly Report | 31 October - 6 November 2012

Israeli forces kill a Palestinian man in Gaza and injure 13 other Palestinians in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem. Around 80 Palestinian-owned structures were demolished, displacing over 120 people. Settlers cut down around 30 trees and take over a house in East Jerusalem. Israeli army issue eviction orders to dozens of families in the Jordan Valley. In Gaza, local authorities demolish two houses, displacing ten people.

Protection of Civilians Weekly Report | 24 - 30 October 2012

Israeli forces kill three Palestinians in Gaza and injure nine others throughout the oPt. Settlers damage eight olive trees. Israeli authorities demolish seven Palestinian livelihood structures. Also in Gaza, three workers died in a tunnel collapse. 200,000 residents still have intermittent electricity supplies.

Protection of Civilians Weekly Report | 17 - 23 October 2012

This weeks escalation in Gaza and southern Israel results in the death of six Palestinians and the injury of eight other Palestinians and three Israelis. In the West Bank, Israeli settlers injure three Palestinians and damage around 50 olive trees. Israeli authorities demolish three Palestinian-owned structures. Also in Gaza, the transfer of Qatar fuel resumed and six truckloads of date bars exited to the West Bank.

And we also know that the Hamas leader that Israel assassinated, had become one of the more moderate in the party, and was responsible for the majority of the peace talks and negotiations in the years before his murder. Yet they removed him from the equation none-the-less.

Then we have Israel's vehement rejection of Abbas seeking Palestinian UN statehood and saying they'd be willing to topple Abbas in order to prevent it. The UN bid for it was on November the 29th of 2012, ironically only a few weeks before Israel's breach of the ceasefire and increased violent actions. Doesn't take a genius to conclude that Israel's breach of the ceasefire and actions leading up to it, were not meagre convenience.

Israel ministry paper proposes 'toppling' Abbas over UN bid

The position paper states that the "main goal of the State of Israel" is to deter the Palestinians from unilaterally seeking non-member observer state status at the UN, which should be seen as "crossing a red line that will require the harshest Israeli response".

The Palestinian UN bid is due to be negotiated on the 29th November. There is a chance that this invasion might quash it.

Palestinian UN observer state bid on 29 November

Abbas: Israel Trying to Undermine Palestinian UN Bid

RAMALLAH, West Bank - Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas accused Israel on Friday of launching an assault on the Gaza Strip to undermine his efforts to secure a diplomatic upgrade at the United Nations. Israel began its air offensive on Wednesday.

Abbas, accused Israel of instigating a "blood bath," telling reporters he thought the escalating military campaign was aimed at sinking his own diplomatic manoeuvrings.

Officials in Gaza say 28 Palestinians, including 16 civilians, had been killed since the start of the Israeli offensive. Three Israeli civilians were killed by a rocket on Thursday.

"Everything that is happening is in order to block our endeavors to reach the United Nations," Abbas told journalists.

Abbas, recognized by the West as the legitimate leader of the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip, has asked Arab League chief Nabil Elaraby to visit the enclave on Saturday and Sunday.

"Undoubtedly we consider that this aggression is against us, the Palestinian people," he said.

Pushing ahead

Despite the violence, he said he would push ahead with plans for a vote at the UN General Assembly before the end of the month to give the Palestinians the rank of an "observer state" within the world body rather than the present "observer entity".

The upgrade would enhance Palestinians' legal rights at a time when peace negotiations with Israel have hit a wall over Israel's refusal to halt settlement building in territory where the Palestinians want their state.

"We are going to the United Nations to vote on the resolution of our becoming an observer state on the 29th of this month. Nothing will deter us," Abbas said.

Both Israel and the United States have condemned the planned vote, which Abbas looks set to win, saying it violated the 1993 Oslo accords, which were intended to pave the way to a "final status agreement" within five years.

But on the streets of Ramallah on Friday thoughts were firmly focused on Gaza rather than far-away New York.

Hundreds of Hamas supporters marched on Ramallah's main square, waving green Hamas flags and chanting "Hamas, onwards, onwards." Bearded young men carried posters of Ahmad Al-Jaabari, the Hamas military leader Israel assassinated on Wednesday.

"What is happening in Gaza is a grave injustice," Ahmad Salem, 24, said. "But I know that God is with us and he will liberate Gaza sooner or later."

You've got to eventually let the facts, logic and common sense take centre seat. As I've said so many times, any rationale person can conclude that Israel is not after peace, nor is it after anything which could give Palestine any support systems towards furthering it's access to both their land, their infrastructure and their human rights.

 

[badb0y]

Just saw a video of a bomb being dropped on a funeral in Palestine.

This is some shameless shit.

 

[diaspora]

I think my favourite part about this current shitfight is Hamas taking out power to like 70,000 Gazans. Amateurish chumps.

 

[Pilgor]

Please try and find me better sources. You posted MEMRI earlier whom I told you was partly formed by an ex Israeli Intelligence officer, and I can't say I'm somewhat skeptical of this new Bloomberg View source.

First, it was not MEMRI original content. It was translated by MEMRI.

Second, you call these sources into question, yet have no problem when people cite to +972, Electronic Intifada, Al Jazeera, and post unsourced shock/propaganda photos? You are a hypocrite.

 

[nib95]

First, it was not MEMRI original content. It was translated by MEMRI.

Second, you call these sources into question, yet have no problem when people cite to +972, Electronic Intifada, Al Jazeera, and post unsourced shock/propaganda photos? You are a hypocrite.

Who are these sources? To my knowledge I haven't posted any such sources. I think you're confusing me with someone else. I may have commented on photo's posted by others, but my own sources have mainly been the UN, UNICEF and more recognised media outlets such as the BBC etc. Oh and by the way, Al Jazeera's International Western branch is one of the most reputable and respected news outlets in the world. So I have no idea why you have an issue with that one.

 

[RustyNails]

First, it was not MEMRI original content. It was translated by MEMRI.

Second, you call these sources into question, yet have no problem when people cite to +972, Electronic Intifada, Al Jazeera, and post unsourced shock/propaganda photos? You are a hypocrite.

Are you comparing Aljazeera with Memri? We have reached the lowest point of this thread.

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

Al Jazeera is a Muslim terrorist conspiracy, just like Al Qaeda, or Algebra.

 

[Partial Gamification]

First, it was not MEMRI original content. It was translated by MEMRI.

Second, you call these sources into question, yet have no problem when people cite to +972, Electronic Intifada, Al Jazeera, and post unsourced shock/propaganda photos? You are a hypocrite.

I think it would be fair to understand that there is bias in every source, to different degrees. A translation too can be given a twist. I'm interested in the greenhouses the Americans paid for and donated, and what happened -were they just looted because the Palestinians in Gaza do stuff like that or was there something else going on? Not much but the same blurb re-posted, from what I could see with a quick search.

Al Jazeera is a Muslim terrorist conspiracy, just like Al Qaeda, or Algebra.

Let's not drag Algebra into this. edit: one of the meanings "to break apart," maybe it is needed here.

 

[Chariot]

Just saw a video of a bomb being dropped on a funeral in Palestine.

This is some shameless shit.

Any news article on that?

Al Jazeera is a Muslim terrorist conspiracy, just like Al Qaeda, or Algebra.

Not helping, not helping at all. I think this isn't the place for jokes.

Also Quotient doesen't seem to want to answer my very simple and open question.

 

[Pilgor]

I think it would be fair to understand that there is bias in every source, to different degrees. A translation too can be given a twist. I'm interested in the greenhouses the Americans paid for and donated, and what happened -were they just looted because the Palestinians in Gaza do stuff like that or was there something else going on? Not much but the same blurb re-posted, from what I could see with a quick search.

Of course there is bias in every publication. I'm not the one who brought up the issue of bias, nor was I the one calling the other side's sources propaganda.

 

[Professional Enthusiast]

I was reading through the thread and the 'Wake up and see the toy I bought you' video killed me. Horrible stuff.

 

[nib95]

Are you comparing Aljazeera with Memri? We have reached the lowest point of this thread.

I think the post by JordanN claiming Hamas has more advantages than the IDF takes the biscuit. I mean….that is just disingenuous and intellectually dishonest.

Though comparing an internationally distinguished and respected media outlet to one partly founded by an Israeli Intelligence officer is also relatively baffling, but not surprising. This is the level of brainwashing, mental gymnastics, and illogical comprehension that we have been dealing with from some (not all) of Israel's staunchest defenders.

But at least these guys haven't just reverted to a meh "It's our God given land" type response, when referring to Palestine, like one person in particular did in the past…

Al Jazeera is a Muslim terrorist conspiracy, just like Al Qaeda, or Algebra.

Lol.

 

[JordanN]

For shame, I can't the find the video. I know I wasn't going crazy though because they have several other CG's so something had to exist. Not sure if it got deleted or if I recalled differently but it could have changed the tides here.

 

[GYODX]

You might have demonstrated it, but without sources that Hamas actually fired from this hospital it means nothing. What is left is that we have a hospital full of elderly left in shock and several civilian deaths.


That is up for debate and not a given fact

The original context of this discussion was not a specific, isolated incident, but whether the IDF targeting hospitals and civilian infrastructure in general is breaking international law.

For reference, here is the post that spawned this discussion.

 

[Partial Gamification]

Of course there is bias in every publication. I'm not the one who brought up the issue of bias, nor was I the one calling the other side's sources propaganda.

Fair enough. Do you know anything else about that story?

..and with Algebra there is balance to keep in mind too.

 

[Pilgor]

Fair enough. Do you know anything else about that story?

..and with Algebra there is balance to keep in mind too.

Looters strip Gaza greenhouses

 

[Quotient]

As I wrote above. I simply want to confirm how he answers. Which could already be altered, since I explained twice already what I asked this for.No exactly.You answered me with a text why Israel is firing on Hamas. But I asked why Hamas was firing on Israel in the first place. Simple.

Sorry I missed your post.

Hamas is firing rockets In response to Israeli aggression.

 

[Partial Gamification]

Looters strip Gaza greenhouses

Thanks for the link. Damn shame.

Palestinian police stood by helplessly Tuesday as looters carted off materials from greenhouses in several settlements, and commanders complained they did not have enough manpower to protect the prized assets. In some instances, there was no security and in others, police even joined the looters, witnesses said.
“We need at least another 70 soldiers. This is just a joke,” said Taysir Haddad, one of 22 security guards assigned to Neve Dekalim, formerly the largest Jewish settlement in Gaza. “We’ve tried to stop as many people as we can, but they’re like locusts.”
The failure of the security forces to prevent scavenging and looting in the settlements after Israel’s troop pullout Monday raised new concerns about Gaza’s future.

 

[bigboss370]

For shame, I can't the find the video. I know I wasn't going crazy though because they have several other CG's so something had to exist. Not sure if it got deleted or if I recalled differently but it could have changed the tides here.

what the fuck? nobody in their right mind believes hamas has an advantage over israeli forces....good god.

 

[JordanN]

what the fuck? nobody in their right mind believes hamas has an advantage over israeli forces....good god.

I should clarify, I'm not talking about power. Of course the IDF would destroy them.
Hamas has the advantage of terrain. IDF has to go house to house to combat them. There's no way around it for Israel.

 

[Chariot]

Sorry I missed your post.

Hamas is firing rockets In response to Israeli aggression.

So Hamas is reacting to Israeki aggresion. Good, that's our starting point.

Of course Hamas is scum for just firing anywhere on Israel willingly getting civilians hurt and then taking other palestinensi as meat shield.
But just because Hamas are palestinensi doesen't mean that palestinensi are Hamas. Israel is fighting the symptons, not the cause of these. And by willingly hitting civilans they help the Hamas get new recruits filled with hate for those who directly killed their own. Plus the world isn't particulary euphoric about the dead children, disabled and helpers.
Israel has to stop illegal settlements and leave Westbank alone. They take peoples lives, even without rockets. Stopping the illegal settlements is the first step.

 

[Chumly]

I want to know how IDF has managed to convince people that this "warning" system is somehow acceptable and its tough luck if women and children don't get out in time. Basically everyone supporting this openly admits that Israel knows its bombing buildings with women and children but its ok because they place a phone call or drop sound bombs. I mean what is the point of even bombing the building if they are giving the residents a chance to escape. Clearly it isn't to kill Hamas since they give them time to get away. That means the only point is to inflict collective punishment on the Palestinian people which would be considered War crimes if it was anyone but Israel.

Im going to quote myself but I keep seeing people defend the bombardment due to "warnings" given and nobody has given any explanation for what these are for. WTF is the point of the Israeli strikes if they openly warn people to let them escape? Clearly it isn't to kill Hamas so what is it? Collective punishment? Open destruction of property? I mean the only goal seems to be leveling buildings that might have had Hamas in them.