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[maharg]

In honesty I have no idea about the Haitian part, but Vietnam is still too different. While guerrilla warfare work, it mainly worked against a force that was extremely distant and had many other disadvantages.

It is almost impossible for Palestinians to win using guerrilla warfare. They are too close to Israel and Israel have full control of the airspace and water. Such strict control on Palestine makes this type of resistance futile.

Israel is definitely way too powerful for such tactics. Palestine do not have what is necessary to break hold enough to continue a fight like this.



See above.

See South Africa.

Also, you dismiss the comparison on the basis of the international component, but that ignores that a large part (though by no means all) of Israel's ability to engage in this conflict on the level they do is because of international support. What the rest of the world thinks does matter.

 

[GYODX]

I was responding to someone claiming it was impossible for the Palestinians to win when the Israelis have far greater resources (and apparently has no concept of how guerilla warfare works), I never claimed they were the same or even very similar at all besides being examples of irregular warfare.

The Palestinians did engage in such tactics at one point, but with the blockade and the West Bank barrier, that is now all but impossible. I simply do not see the Israelis being intimidated into making concessions through guerrilla tactics and terrorism anymore.

 

[TarNaru33]

Videoes of the "War Room" at the link. Maybe we have some of these "warriors" on this forum too ?

This thread is already hectic as it is without your blatant accusations. At any rate, there is propaganda like this on all sides of every conflict ever.

 

[Tmac]

Operation "lets grab more land".

 

[GYODX]

Operation "lets grab more land".

In Gaza?

 

[Messofanego]

In other news:

http://electronicintifada.net/blogs...ion-sets-war-room-sell-gaza-massacre-facebook



Videoes of the "War Room" at the link. Maybe we have some of these "warriors" on this forum too ?

Damn. I always tend to stay away from those facebook political propaganda groups, they are legit creepy. One family on my mother's side in Pakistan is hardcore into that kind of stuff, the dad organises a page himself (which I have reported before and I think got taken down) where they post links to war death and injury videos with pro-Al Qaeda/anti-American messages in the background to use those casualties as fuel for their beliefs. Whichever side, this stuff is emotion-appealing and dangerous.

 

[Pilgor]

Operation "lets grab more land".

Operation "I don't know what I'm talking about".

 

[TarNaru33]

See South Africa.

Also, you dismiss the comparison on the basis of the international component, but that ignores that a large part (though by no means all) of Israel's ability to engage in this conflict on the level they do is because of international support. What the rest of the world thinks does matter.

Where you or anyone else put "international component" in this? Do you think if they continued irregular warfare, that the international community would rise up against Israel?

Israel is about to go into the conflict the way they do because of lack of international support for Palestinians, not the other way around. Powerful countries are likely to support Israel's retaliation against violence unless it is unwarranted.

Besides, we are talking about this current scenario between Israel and Palestine. There is no need to try to show guerrilla warfare worked, when the conditions for it to be effective just aren't there.

EDIT: Do you have a specific conflict of South Africa that you are recommending? I hope you are not referring to Boer Wars... lol

 

[TrafalgarLaw]

My cousin's son just died in the last airstrike on Tal Alza'atar ,his name Saher Abu Namous he is 5 years .

Sahir Salman Abu Namous was just four years old, soon to turn five.

Sahir was killed on Friday afternoon when an Israeli warplane bombed his family home in the Tal al-Zaatar neighborhood in northern Gaza.

“He was playing and smiling next to his mother when missile shrapnel divided his head,” Mahmoud writes.

“His father took him to the hospital screaming ‘Wake up, my son! I bought toys for you, please wake up!’”

The photo that Mahmoud sent of Sahir with little left of his head, cradled in the arms of his anguished father Salman Abu Namous, is too graphic to show here.

This stuff makes my blood boil and there are people that DARE to defend Israel.

 

[Quotient]

My cousin's son just died in the last airstrike on Tal Alza'atar ,his name Saher Abu Namous he is 5 years .

Sahir Salman Abu Namous was just four years old, soon to turn five.

Sahir was killed on Friday afternoon when an Israeli warplane bombed his family home in the Tal al-Zaatar neighborhood in northern Gaza.

“He was playing and smiling next to his mother when missile shrapnel divided his head,” Mahmoud writes.

“His father took him to the hospital screaming ‘Wake up, my son! I bought toys for you, please wake up!’”

The photo that Mahmoud sent of Sahir with little left of his head, cradled in the arms of his anguished father Salman Abu Namous, is too graphic to show here.

Are you quoting the article, or is the article quoting you?

Regardless, that is such a sad loss of life. He looks like an adorable kid!

 

[LNBL]

My cousin's son just died in the last airstrike on Tal Alza'atar ,his name Saher Abu Namous he is 5 years .

Sahir Salman Abu Namous was just four years old, soon to turn five.

Sahir was killed on Friday afternoon when an Israeli warplane bombed his family home in the Tal al-Zaatar neighborhood in northern Gaza.

“He was playing and smiling next to his mother when missile shrapnel divided his head,” Mahmoud writes.

“His father took him to the hospital screaming ‘Wake up, my son! I bought toys for you, please wake up!’”

The photo that Mahmoud sent of Sahir with little left of his head, cradled in the arms of his anguished father Salman Abu Namous, is too graphic to show here.

We posted that video a couple of pages ago, truly heartbreaking. Especially if it's your cousin man May he rest in peace

 

[Pilgor]

My cousin's son just died in the last airstrike on Tal Alza'atar ,his name Saher Abu Namous he is 5 years .

Sahir Salman Abu Namous was just four years old, soon to turn five.

Sahir was killed on Friday afternoon when an Israeli warplane bombed his family home in the Tal al-Zaatar neighborhood in northern Gaza.

“He was playing and smiling next to his mother when missile shrapnel divided his head,” Mahmoud writes.

“His father took him to the hospital screaming ‘Wake up, my son! I bought toys for you, please wake up!’”

The photo that Mahmoud sent of Sahir with little left of his head, cradled in the arms of his anguished father Salman Abu Namous, is too graphic to show here.

I'm sorry for your loss.

 

[TrafalgarLaw]

We posted that video a couple of pages ago, truly heartbreaking. Especially if it's your cousin man May he rest in peace

Not my cousin. I'll rewrite.

 

[Kapsama]

It's kinda disturbing that the Arab world is 300 million strong and yet they can't even band together and protect their Palestinian brothers from being brutalized by a tiny nation of 7 million.

 

[Interceptor]

It's kinda disturbing that the Arab world is 300 million strong and yet they can't even band together and protect their Palestinian brothers from being brutalized by a tiny nation of 7 million.

They band together when the tiny nation was still under a million and was not occupying any land and did not attack anyone. Well they lost, not once but twice. Thats why we have these borders now.

But i guess you are implying they should finally get rid of the jews? Well they would, if they could. But they can´t.

 

[ProfessorMoran]

It's kinda disturbing that the Arab world is 300 million strong and yet they can't even band together and protect their Palestinian brothers from being brutalized by a tiny nation of 7 million.

That's because they don't give a shit about their Palestinian brothers and surprisingly they don't want to help these brothers out by giving them a nice spot in their own countries to start their own country.

 

[squidyj]

When 9/11 happened, Afghanistan denied or wasn't willing to give up Osama Bin Laden. Did you think that was enough to stop the U.S from absolutely going in?
Whether or not Israel has evidence, never take a terrorists words for 100%.

Their Guerrilla tactics are still immoral. Ok, why aren't they telling civilians to leave when they start fighting? Why is it Israel has to call Gaza or drop leaflets telling them to leave? There is zero defense for this other than, Hamas not actually caring for the Palestinians. They're using them like pawns. They need those casualties to look good and turn it into propaganda.

Why just a hospital? I already posted proof they have stored weapons in Mosques before.

and Iraqs lack of weapons of mass destruction wasn't enough to deter the US either.

 

[Jeels]

I'm sure there is an example of the other side of the fence as well but reading stuff like this is always eye opening: https://storify.com/davidsheen/israeli-army-the-next-generation I can't believe people actually think like this..

 

[JordanN]

and Iraqs lack of weapons of mass destruction wasn't enough to deter the US either.

Funny you should bring up Iraq. Israel told America not to go into Iraq.

Israel has some of the best intelligence agencies in the world. When a country or terror group threatens them with annihilation, they do not mess around and wait.

Israel took out Iraq's nuclear facilities and the world hated them for it. Yet years later, Iraq invaded Kuwait and used poisonous weapons in Iran. Iraq also fired missiles at Israel during the Gulf War. Now imagine if they were nuclear tipped...

 

[mcflyOS]

I'm sure there is an example of the other side of the fence as well but reading stuff like this is always eye opening: https://storify.com/davidsheen/israeli-army-the-next-generation I can't believe people actually think like this..

Kids... in a country surrounded by people who hate them and want to destroy them. I can believe it.

What's really eye-opening is the disturbing anti-Semitic propaganda that is mainstream on Arab television programs. That stuff is not only disseminated by adults, but by clerics, journalists, and political leaders.

 

[nib95]

Great video explaining the Palestinian and Israeli conflict dating back to its recent inception, in an easy to digest and mostly impartial way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y58njT2oXfE&feature=youtu.be

 

[GYODX]

Kids... in a country surrounded by people who hate them and want to destroy them. I can believe it.

What's really eye-opening is the disturbing anti-Semitic propaganda that is mainstream on Arab television programs. That stuff is not only disseminated by adults, but by clerics, journalists, and political leaders.

Which is why I will always be glad Israel has the upper hand in the conflict. If the tables were turned, there would be no Israel.

 

[nib95]

Which is why I will always be glad Israel has the upper hand in the conflict. If the tables were turned, there would be no Israel.

Which is largely unsubstantiated bollocks seeing as how Jews at least lived along side the Arabs in the region in considerably better standing for hundreds of years, comparative to how they have been since the inception of Israel, or organisations such as Irgun and Lehi.

Not to mention the irony of your point, given that Palestine IS disappearing off the map and from existence, slowly but surely, thanks to Israel and it's aggressive expansions in to Palestinian territories.

 

[zeroOman]

That's because they don't give a shit about their Palestinian brothers and surprisingly they don't want to help these brothers out by giving them a nice spot in their own countries to start their own country.

how about Israel moved out to the 100 county, who support them?

 

[m_shortpants]

That's because they don't give a shit about their Palestinian brothers and surprisingly they don't want to help these brothers out by giving them a nice spot in their own countries to start their own country.

They shouldn't have to in the first place.

 

[dripdripsplash]

Which is why I will always be glad Israel has the upper hand in the conflict. If the tables were turned, there would be no Israel.

Why should Israel exist in the first place ?

There should be no Jewish homeland if it happens at the expense of another people. I think we can all agree on that.

The founding fathers of Zionism argued to take over these lands but did not give thought to the indiginious peoples of these states.

This fact showing the traits of the Zionist ideology: Arrogant, egocentric and deeming the Jews as superior to others, worthy of a land at the expense of others.

Nothing about the foundation of Israel is fair or just. It was acknowledged as a legitimate state by many countries as the first in the world, and I acknowledge that too. I do not acknowledge the reasoning behind the foundation itself though.

Tell me why are the Jews more worthy to the palestinian land more than the Palestinians themselves ? This is an essential question and an essential debate that I want to raise.

 

[JordanN]

Why should Israel exist in the first place ?

Because the Jews use to have their own country there. When they went in exile, they had to put up with centuries of antisemitism with no voice to protect them.

Without [modern] Israel, you wouldn't hear cases like nazi criminal Eichmann being arrested and tried. Or how they rescued black Jews from famine. Israel has also shown they are committed to fighting terror globally and they contribute a lot to the sciences.
If you don't think Israel should exist, I hope you're not posting on a computer using an Intel CPU.

 

[Quotient]

Why should Israel exist in the first place ?

There should be no Jewish homeland if it happens at the expense of another people. I think we can all agree on that.

The founding fathers of Zionism argued to take over these lands but did not give thought to the indiginious peoples of these states.

This fact showing the traits of the Zionist ideology: Arrogant, egocentric and deeming the Jews as superior to others, worthy of a land at the expense of others.

Nothing about the foundation of Israel is fair or just. It was acknowledged as a legitimate state by many countries as the first in the world, and I acknowledge that too. I do not acknowledge the reasoning behind the foundation itself though.

Tell me why are the Jews more worthy to the palestinian land more than the Palestinians themselves ? This is an essential question and an essential debate that I want to raise.

Jews and Muslims have shared that land for longer than one can remember. Israel is there now, and by the looks of it they aren't leaving. So what do you suggest would be a realistic solution to the problem?

 

[GYODX]

Which is largely unsubstantiated bollocks seeing as how Jews at least lived along side the Arabs in the region in considerably better standing for hundreds of years, comparative to how they have been since the inception of Israel, or organisations such as Irgun and Lehi.

Not to mention the irony of your point, given that Palestine IS disappearing off the map and from existence, slowly but surely, thanks to Israel and it's aggressive expansions in to Palestinian territories.

Unsubstantiated, except by the fact that multiple Arab countries have ganged up on Israel multiple times since its inception.

But other than that, unsubstantiated.

 

[Terra Firma]

Because the Jews use to have their own country there. When they went in exile, they had to put up with centuries of antisemitism with no voice to protect them.

Without [modern] Israel, you wouldn't hear cases like Eichmann being arrested and tried. Or how they rescued black Jews from famine. Israel has also shown they are committed to fighting terror globally and they contribute a lot to the sciences.
If you don't think Israel should exist, I hope you're not posting on a computer using an Intel CPU.

Why should Israel exist in Palestine?

 

[BBboy20]

Because the Jews use to have their own country there. When they went in exile, they had to put up with centuries of antisemitism with no voice to protect them.

Without [modern] Israel, you wouldn't hear cases like Eichmann being arrested and tried. Israel has also shown they are committed to fighting terror and they contribute a lot to the sciences.
If you don't think Israel should exist, I hope you're not posting on a computer using an Intel CPU.

You really don't look at the settlement initiative as an very slow attempt at genocide, do you? Because none of that matters if you're going to become the very thing that have been trying to kill you.

 

[Pilgor]

Great video explaining the Palestinian and Israeli conflict dating back to its recent inception, in an easy to digest and mostly impartial way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y58njT2oXfE&feature=youtu.be

Here's a great video summarizing the conflict in Gaza.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28294498

 

[Terra Firma]

Kids... in a country surrounded by people who hate them and want to destroy them. I can believe it.

What's really eye-opening is the disturbing anti-Semitic propaganda that is mainstream on Arab television programs. That stuff is not only disseminated by adults, but by clerics, journalists, and political leaders.

Israel, to the Arab world, is representative of Jews, even though in reality it is not.

The Arab world would be entirely anti-Christian as well if America was the only Christian nation on the planet. If there were two Jewish states, you would not see the level of anti-Semitism as you do in the Arab world.

If the other side had fewer numbers (i.e. Palestinians were the only Arabs), you'd be bound to see a lot of anti-Arab rhetoric.

In the end, it is all rhetoric. Rhetoric holds nothing against actual deaths and killings of Palestinians.

 

[Quotient]

Which is largely unsubstantiated bollocks seeing as how Jews at least lived along side the Arabs in the region in considerably better standing for hundreds of years, comparative to how they have been since the inception of Israel, or organisations such as Irgun and Lehi.

Not to mention the irony of your point, given that Palestine IS disappearing off the map and from existence, slowly but surely, thanks to Israel and it's aggressive expansions in to Palestinian territories.

Are you kidding me. So you are telling me that if the table was turned and the Palestinians were in power we wouldn't be witnessing the end of the jewish people? They tried numerous times to push "the jews into the mediterranean" and failed. Hamas and various Palestinian factions have/had the destruction and wiping out the Jewish state as their number 1 charter!

 

[JordanN]

Why should Israel exist in Palestine?

Why not?

There were many proposals for where Israel should settle.

Going with Palestine made sense. It was very close to Europe where a lot of Jews were being persecuted. It was also the only opportunity they had it.
Why wouldn't you want to live where your culture originated?

 

[Terra Firma]

Are you kidding me. So you are telling me that if the table was turned and the Palestinians were in power we wouldn't be witnessing the end of the jewish people? They tried numerous times to push "the jews into the mediterranean" and failed. Hamas and various Palestinian factions have/had the destruction and wiping out the Jewish state as their number 1 charter!

Where's the historical precedence for this? The Jews lived peacefully with Arabs for the majority of the time that they lived in Arab countries. It was only since Zionism caused the expulsion of Palestinians from their lands that has resulted in the increased anti-Semitic rhetoric.

 

[Terra Firma]

Why not?

Uh, really? Because there was a native people living there who would not like to be displaced or their lands taken over?

Maybe I should move into your house and kick you out for some made up reason as well.

Going with Palestine made sense. It was very close to Europe where a lot of Jews were being persecuted. They also have historical connection.

It only made sense if you were a religious zealot. There was a small minority of Jews living there. Majority of Jews were living in Europe or North America. What would have made sense was to have a homeland within the US. Israel would have been a hell of a lot safer if it was located in the heart of America.

 

[nib95]

Because the Jews use to have their own country there. When they went in exile, they had to put up with centuries of antisemitism with no voice to protect them.

That was still 2736 years ago. It does not give them the right to continually steal Palestinian land or brutally oppress an entire region of people. Especially not in this modern day and age.

 

[Quotient]

That was still 2736 years ago. It does not give them the right to continually steal Palestinian land or brutally oppress an entire region of people. Especially not in this modern day and age.

No it doesn't. I think everyone can agree that settlements are wrong. So what do you suggest may be a solution to the current Israeli-Palestinian conundrum?

 

[JordanN]

Uh, really? Because there was a native people living there who would not like to be displaced or their lands taken over?

Maybe I should move into your house and kick you out for some made up reason as well.

Who said anything about displacement? The Jews bought their own land. They had nothing to do with Arabs.

It only made sense if you were a religious zealot. There was a small minority of Jews living there. Majority of Jews were living in Europe or North America. What would have made sense was to have a homeland within the US. Israel would have been a hell of a lot safer if it was located in the heart of America.

And which President would have gave them that? Anti-semitism was still in North America.

 

[Dead Man]

How about we keep discussing all relevant subjects? Unless of course you think that Palestinians having it rough (which is an understatement) is reason enough to put aside any discussion about violence perpetrated against Jews in the name of said Palestinians (who by and large probably aren't asking for anything of the sort).

Because maybe the struggle against Israel and the resurgence of violent and uninhibited antisemitism are related contrary to what is often claimed around here. Maybe?

Or maybe running off on rants about uninhibited anti Semitism are just bullshit whataboutisms. Maybe believing that there is pervasive uninhibited anti Semitism is not really conducive to a good discussion.

There is anti Semitism, there is violence against Jewish people. Saying thing like opposing Israeli policies is inherently linked to anti Semitism is bullshit of the highest order.

 

[Tallshortman]

It's kinda disturbing that the Arab world is 300 million strong and yet they can't even band together and protect their Palestinian brothers from being brutalized by a tiny nation of 7 million.

Despite the fact that the arab world is extremely divided and spread out as is, what do you think they can do besides exert diplomatic pressure? They sure as hell aren't going to win a military conflict.

 

[Terra Firma]

Who said anything about displacement? The Jews bought their own land. They had nothing to do with Arabs.

You cannot call it your "own" land if you're still buying land within a country. If I buy some land in America, I can't simply declare myself an independent country. It would be seen as theft from America.

And which President would have gave them that? Anti-semitism was still in North America.

More so than in the Arab world? I highly doubt it. There were more Jews living peacefully in America than the combined total in the Middle East.

Anyway, it is completely fruitless to argue about Israel's existence now. It exists and in retrospect, most sane people realize that establishing it in the Arab world made no sense (unless you're a zealot Jew or Christian wanting to bring about the end times), but now that it's there, talking about it won't change anything. GYODX is being ridiculous and showing that he is not to be reasoned with because he thinks Israel should always have the upper hand, regardless of how in the wrong it may be. So what if Israel, as a political entity, ends up being dissolved in the Middle East? It can always be set up elsewhere.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

And we're now having people question Israel's right to exist. People saying Jews shouldn't be there. Down playing antisemitism.

Which is exactly why Israel feels negotiating won't provide an end to the conflict.

It always ends up this way. It makes all the claims of "no one is question israel's right to exist" "anti-zionism isn't antisemtism" such BS

 

[JordanN]

You cannot call it your "own" land if you're still buying land within a country. If I buy some land in America, I can't simply declare myself an independent country. It would be seen as theft from America.

Britain controlled the mandate. They later handed it over to the United Nations who recommended to split it.
Where's the problem with Israel becoming independent when an international body declares it legal?

 

[Terra Firma]

And we're now having people question Israel's right to exist. Which is exactly why Israel feels negotiating won't provide an end to the conflict.

Pay attention to the conversation.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

Pay attention to the conversation.

Why should Israel exist in the first place ?

I have. And you're literally trying to characterize the creation of Israel as simple theft.

 

[Terra Firma]

Britain controlled the mandate. They later handed it over to the United Nations who recommenced to split it.
Where's the problem with Israel becoming independent when an international body declares it legal?

So what if Britain controlled the mandate? Do you think any people would be happy if their land was given to some foreign group? If a bunch of Polish people settled in India and Britain gave some Indian land to the Poles during partition, would India be happy?

 

[maharg]

Who said anything about displacement? The Jews bought their own land. They had nothing to do with Arabs.

Whoa there. Are you saying no Palestinians were forcibly displaced in the creation of Israel? Because that's just plain not true.

I continue to think that this kind of blame game is unproductive and stupid, but at least be accurate about it.

 

[collige]

And we're now having people question Israel's right to exist. People saying Jews shouldn't be there. Down playing antisemitism.

Which is exactly why Israel feels negotiating won't provide an end to the conflict.

It always ends up this way. It makes all the claims of "no one is question israel's right to exist" "anti-zionism isn't antisemtism" such BS

There's a difference between claiming Israel should be dismantled is 2014 and question the admittedly shady circumstances behind its original creation. No one is doing the former.