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Breaking: Israel launches Operation Protective Edge against Hamas in Gaza

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Quotient

Member
I believe I have some unanswered questions from you as well. ;) Namely what kind of borders would Israel actually accept/propose at this point for a real two-state solution? With no provision of that, I don't think the conflict can end in anything but a slow and inexorable march of the settlement situation, and I don't think the Palestinians will benefit from that in the long run.

This is why i am just a lowly keyboard warrior.

I assume Israel would want East Jerusalem and most likely other settlements included in its borders.

I think Hamas almost certainly thinks they are, and I think they and the Palestinian people have legitimate grievances against Israel (as well as all their other, theoretically more sympathetic, neighbors).

Hamas may think they are doing a great service for the Palestinian people, but do you think they are?
 
Damn it Egyptian mediators, you had one job!

Not to just send out this 4-point initiative to the public and media but also through to the proper contact channels to Hamas. No wonder Osama Hamdan calls this a joke on that Wolf Blitzer interview.
 

TarNaru33

Banned
The grandparents of those that risked their lives to fight the Nazis did it so crimes like that of the Third Reich's and Israel's would not go unpunished. They would be disappointed if they saw what was going on today.

What? I would say most fought because they had to due to being drafted and their country being attacked.

It was still unfair to them no matter how you slice it. You can say they fought and/or died for a good cause, but ultimately most did not want to be involved in it.

War is hell, it isn't fair and many of you should stop seemingly treating it as such. Be realistic for pete's sake.
 

maharg

idspispopd
This is why i am just a lowly keyboard warrior.

I assume Israel would want East Jerusalem and most likely other settlements included in its borders.



Hamas may think they are doing a great service for the Palestinian people, but do you think they are?

This is a very complicated question, and I'm not sure it will be able to be effectively answered for a long time. But I think it's also a red herring. I'm not Palestinian, so I'm not even remotely in a position to judge. To impose my view of what 'serves' the Palestinians definitely does not serve them.
 
What? I would say most fought because they had to due to being drafted and their country being attacked.

It was still unfair to them no matter how you slice it. You can say they fought and/or died for a good cause, but ultimately most did not want to be involved in it.

War is hell, it isn't fair and many of you should stop seemingly treating it as such. Be realistic for pete's sake.

Does "be realistic" mean stop caring about civilian casualties?
 

Quotient

Member
This is a very complicated question, and I'm not sure it will be able to be effectively answered for a long time. But I think it's also a red herring. I'm not Palestinian, so I'm not even remotely in a position to judge. To impose my view of what 'serves' the Palestinians definitely does not serve them.

Let me rephrase then: is Hama's current skirmish improving the lives of the Palestinian people, will it bring about any change in the current status quo?
 

maharg

idspispopd
Let me rephrase then: is Hama's current skirmish improving the lives of the Palestinian people, will it bring about any change in the current status quo?

The answer is still the same. Is there *any* action (on the part of the Palestinians) that unequivocally improves the life of the Palestinian people, or are all their options just a choice between being shot or being starved? No one can answer that now, the conflict is still playing out.
 

JordanN

Banned
Tell them to leave? Where would they go? Around the corner and then run back when the next bomb will hit that same corner in 2 hours? You talk about Hamas using them as pawns as if it is all as clear as daylight to everyone, yet is is only the same people claiming that in this thread. Hamas's tactics are nasty at times yes, but saying they are PURPOSELY killing the people of the occupied territory that they want to liberate just to use them as propaganda for the outside world is fucking cruel. Imo it shows how little is actually cared about the lives of those families that are left behind when you dismiss lives that easy. No i don't think it's only the palestinians that are being fed propaganda at this point, try reflecting on yourself before talking about propaganda.
Normally, there would be bunkers for this kind of thing. But because of Hamas, they would just have to run, really far, from the fight scene.

LNBL said:
And why just a hospital? Why not? It's a WAR CRIME, to attack hospitals during war time. Don't you understand what that means? I have seen 0 proof that this hospital was being used to hide weapons and I have seen 0 proof that those elderly disabled people were protecting weapons, yet according to a doctor of that hospital it has been the 3rd time they have been attacked over the years.
I can't find any information on why they did it but I never made it my argument either. I said a Mosque (with actual weapons inside) was proof of endangering the Palestinians.
 

Quotient

Member
The answer is still the same. Is there *any* action that improves the life of the Palestinian people, or are all their options just a choice between being shot or being starved? No one can answer that now, the conflict is still playing out.

You may say there is not any actions that improves the lives of the Palestinian people, but Hamas's current actions aren't doing its people any favors - last count we are 200 dead and close to 1000 injured.
 

MacNille

Banned
Yet NOT A SINGLE ONE has died. So please carry on and defend murder.

Do you know WHY not a single person from Israel have die? It is thanks to the iron dome, safety bunkers, and preparations for this kind of attacks. Hamas are not failing for lack of trying, they are failing because Israel has prepared better for a conflict.
 

maharg

idspispopd
You may say there is not any actions that improves the lives of the Palestinian people, but Hamas's current actions aren't doing its people any favors - last count we are 200 dead and close to 1000 injured.

Again, this is reductive. The alternative appears to be to do nothing and slowly be pushed out of their homes. Shot or starved, you die either way.

Do you know WHY not a single person from Israel have die? It is thanks to the iron dome, safety bunkers, and preparations for this kind of attacks. Hamas are not failing for lack of trying, they are failing because Israel has prepared better for a conflict.

Out of curiosity, where's Hamas gonna get the concrete with which to build bunkers?
Israel has basically made it illegal to build bunkers in Gaza through their blockade.
 

Pilgor

Member
Do you know WHY not a single person from Israel have die? It is thanks to the iron dome, safety bunkers, and preparations for this kind of attacks. Hamas are not failing for lack of trying, they are failing because Israel has prepared better for a conflict.

Don't bother, he doesn't understand.
 

LNBL

Member
Do you know WHY not a single person from Israel have die? It is thanks to the iron dome, safety bunkers, and preparations for this kind of attacks. Hamas are not failing for lack of trying, they are failing because Israel has prepared better for a conflict.

Unfortunately Palestina does not have the means to build such an Iron dome and it does not get high tech military equipment from the USA.

Normally, there would be bunkers for this kind of thing. But because of Hamas, they would just have to run, really far, from the fight scene.

That's some great advice right there
 
Israelis do not have to die for their response to be justifiable.

Attempted-Murder is a crime, too. Just because your victim doesn't die, does't mean you're not guilty of a heinous crime. Hamas is trying very hard to kill Israelis, I don't think this is in dispute.

Yeah, but this just goes back to an eye for an eye (or an eye for a potential eye). Killing innocents will do nothing for the cause here.

The only reason I can think of them trying to enforce "peace" is that extreme force has lead to peace in the past when it came to WW2 (Japan and the A-Bomb) and perhaps other instances in Russia where they have quelled uprisings in a similar manner.

But again, they've been trying this for decades. When will they realize that perhaps the strategy won't work in their particular scenario?
 

SystemBug

Member
Do you know WHY not a single person from Israel have die? It is thanks to the iron dome, safety bunkers, and preparations for this kind of attacks. Hamas are not failing for lack of trying, they are failing because Israel has prepared better for a conflict.
Can't excuse the billion dollars of funding
 

JordanN

Banned
Unfortunately Palestina does not have the means to build such an Iron dome and it does not get high tech military equipment from the USA.
You know, if Palestinians keep complaining about funds, why do they even bother fighting Israel?

This is almost like the arms race during the cold war. The USSR couldn't keep spending the same money as the US could. They ultimately failed.

How can the Palestinians think any kind of war they do will have an effect on Israel? They're drinking a lot of kool-aid if they think Israel will surrender, despite Israel having fought many wars with far tougher opponents, but they always won.
 
You know, if Palestinians keep complaining about funds, why do they even bother fighting Israel?

This is almost like the arms race during the cold war. The USSR couldn't keep spending the same money as the US could. They ultimately failed.

How can the Palestinians think any kind of war they do will have an effect on Israel? They're drinking a lot of kool-aid if they think Israel will surrender, despite Israel having fought many wars with far tougher opponents.

How did the Vietnamese beat the Americans

How did the Haitians beat the French

How has any poor third world nation ever beat any rich first world nation

The answer is so obvious it's hard to believe you don't know it already.
 

Dalthien

Member
Again, this is reductive. The alternative appears to be to do nothing and slowly be pushed out of their homes. Shot or starved, you die either way.

You may be right, and doing nothing may ultimately lead to nothing. But to me, it seems that there's at least a chance of building up international support for their cause over time by following a more peaceful course.

Continually lobbing rockets and bombs into Israel just wipes out and undermines any hope for building any kind of meaningful international support. Most nations understand and support a country's right to defend itself and to go after those that are firing weapons into its homeland. That's not going to change, and every time they fire more rockets into Israel, they completely undercut and negate any international support that they were building, and they set back the timeline even further of eventually winning enough international support to actually make a difference. And international support should be their ultimate end game - because they just aren't going to win a military victory against Israel.
 

JordanN

Banned
How did the Vietnamese beat the Americans
In war? Vietnam always got crushed.
The U.S pulled out because of public pressure.

curlyfriski said:
How did the Haitians beat the French
We're talking a small island with not so advanced weaponry back then. Haiti also had allies (Britain and Spain).

curlyfriski said:
How has any poor third world nation ever beat any rich first world nation

The answer is so obvious it's hard to believe you don't know it already.

Look at how many wars Israel won. How many wars have the Palestinian won? None.
There's absolutely nothing the Palestinians have won since Gaza went independent.
 

maharg

idspispopd
You may be right, and doing nothing may ultimately lead to nothing. But to me, it seems that there's at least a chance of building up international support for their cause over time by following a more peaceful course.

Continually lobbing rockets and bombs into Israel just wipes out and undermines any hope for building any kind of meaningful international support. Most nations understand and support a country's right to defend itself and to go after those that are firing weapons into its homeland. That's not going to change, and every time they fire more rockets into Israel, they completely undercut and negate any international support that they were building, and they set back the timeline even further of eventually winning enough international support to actually make a difference. And international support should be their ultimate end game - because they just aren't going to win a military victory against Israel.

The settlements are already treated as a "nice to have" by the international community. It's incredibly hard to imagine them suddenly becoming important because things got too *quiet* in Palestine. Fighting back and enduring repression has been an important component in ending oppression in pretty much every case I can think of. Certainly in South Africa. In British India. In Ireland. Hell, in the United freakin' States.

In war? Vietnam always got crushed.
The U.S pulled out because of public pressure.

And that public pressure came about because the Vietnamese people just stopped fighting, right?
 

Kinyou

Member
You know, if Palestinians keep complaining about funds, why do they even bother fighting Israel?

This is almost like the arms race during the cold war. The USSR couldn't keep spending the same money as the US could. They ultimately failed.

How can the Palestinians think any kind of war they do will have an effect on Israel? They're drinking a lot of kool-aid if they think Israel will surrender, despite Israel having fought many wars with far tougher opponents, but they always won.
I think it's less about winning a war and more about having a bargaining chip on the table. Stopping rocket attacks is pretty much the only thing they can offer when discussing a treaty with Israel.
 

JordanN

Banned
And that public pressure came about because the Vietnamese people just stopped fighting, right?
Vietnam was always going to be a disaster for the U.S. Whether it was the fact their entry was staged, Presidents having too much power, scandals happening at home, the draft, protestors being killed, journalism revealing various massacres to the public.

There really was no reason for the U.S to keep fighting but the Vietnamese army wasn't one of them. In fact, the Viet Cong never even won a single battle.
 

Quotient

Member
The settlements are already treated as a "nice to have" by the international community. It's incredibly hard to imagine them suddenly becoming important because things got too *quiet* in Palestine. Fighting back and enduring repression has been an important component in ending oppression in pretty much every case I can think of. Certainly in South Africa. In British India. In Ireland. Hell, in the United freakin' States.



And that public pressure came about because the Vietnamese people just stopped fighting, right?

If the West Bank and Gaza were on the complete opposite side of the earth to Israel.
 

Menaged

Member
I'm not 100% knowledgeable on the subject, but back in the 1940's, didn't Israelis also opposed the British occupation with some firepower? And it worked...

I doubt the Palestinians believe they can do anything to hurt Israel, but by firing rockets they remind the world that they're still being occoupied and nothing changed.

People mentioned here that Israel has nothing to lose, and the Palestinians need to concede. I disagree. I'm sure a lot of Israelis want to live normal lives, without worrying everyday if the alarm is gonna sound off. Maybe they don't care how it's gonna happen, but they want it to happen.
 

LNBL

Member
In war? Vietnam always got crushed.
The U.S pulled out because of public pressure.


We're talking a small island with not so advanced weaponry back then. Haiti also had allies (Britain and Spain).



Look at how many wars Israel won. How many wars have the Palestinian won? None.
There's absolutely nothing the Palestinians have won since Gaza went independent.

The Hezbollah - Israel fight could be described as a Stalemate in the least case, so it's not impossible for Israel to lose.
 

zeroOman

Member
I'm not 100% knowledgeable on the subject, but back in the 1940's, didn't Israelis also opposed the British occupation with some firepower? And it worked...

I doubt the Palestinians believe they can do anything to hurt Israel, but by firing rockets they remind the world that they're still being occoupied and nothing changed.

People mentioned here that Israel has nothing to lose, and the Palestinians need to concede. I disagree. I'm sure a lot of Israelis want to live normal lives, without worrying everyday if the alarm is gonna sound off. Maybe they don't care how it's gonna happen, but they want it to happen.

And don't forgot about the peace offer the UN was trying to make in that war, when the arab world accept the 4 week peace.... which end bad for this guy Folke Bernadotte... he was assassinated by of Jewish Zionist group Lehi.... the funny thing in these 4 days Isreal get her shit together with the support of the USA.... and won the war it's like they know the peace talk was for nothing.
 

Dalthien

Member
The settlements are already treated as a "nice to have" by the international community. It's incredibly hard to imagine them suddenly becoming important because things got too *quiet* in Palestine. Fighting back and enduring repression has been an important component in ending oppression in pretty much every case I can think of. Certainly in South Africa. In British India. In Ireland. Hell, in the United freakin' States.

I'm not even saying that there is a good chance of building international support, but there is a chance, even if it happens to be a fairly small one. I just don't see the upside of their current course of action. Hundreds of Palestinians killed, potentially thousands injured. Lots of structural damage to the facilities and communities where Palestinians have to live. And if one of these rockets succeeds in striking somewhere where they happen kill to a number or Israelis, those numbers of Palestinian deaths will skyrocket further. And through it all, the Israeli government actually has pretty broad international support to continue on with all these actions against Palestine because of the continual firing of rockets into Israel.

I don't want to see Palestinians injured or killed, or their land and facilities destroyed. And I understand their desire to do something, but just doing something when it results in a worse outcome than doing nothing, and when it actually has a negative effect on a potential outcome that might actually help your cause (international support) - eh, I don't know. I'm just like everyone else here, I don't have any answers to solve this. I just don't think lobbing rockets into Israel helps their cause in any way, internationally or militarily.
 
Most nations understand and support a country's right to defend itself and to go after those that are firing weapons into its homeland.

By most nations you mean the US and its allies, "the international order". And what the US has ultimately supported through unconditional veto, is the ceaseless colonization of Palestine. Without consequence. That is what is being supported. The violence is its byproduct.

Everything hinges on the etiology of the conflict. Either the Nakba happened, or it didn't. Either we live within a post colonial world, the Geneva Conventions, or we don't. What "the international order" is supporting is a world of two characters. What's being supported is convenience.

I agree change can only come from the outside, but it's not going to come by appealing to our schizophrenic "international order". It can only come through grass roots boycott, as in South Africa. "The international order" will only come around when its too inconvenient not to.
 

maharg

idspispopd
Vietnam was always going to be a disaster for the U.S. Whether it was the fact their entry was staged, Presidents having too much power, scandals happening at home, the draft, protestors being killed, journalism revealing various massacres to the public.

There really was no reason for the U.S to keep fighting but the Vietnamese army wasn't one of them. In fact, the Viet Cong never even won a single battle.

...

And the draft happened because?

And there were protesters because?

And there were massacres because?

Seriously what are you even saying. In what world does the Vietnamese continuing to fight NOT contribute to the war becoming an expensive (politically and financially) boondoggle for the US? If they hadn't fought... what would have happened?

The whole point is that losing battles can still win the war, especially against an opponent that is much stronger than you. This has happened many times in history.
 

Dalthien

Member
By most nations you mean the US and its allies, "the international order". And what the US has ultimately supported through unconditional veto, is the ceaseless colonization of Palestine. Without consequence. That is what is being supported. The violence is its byproduct.

By most nations, I mean most nations that actually have some power and influence in international affairs. The US, much of Europe - hell, even nations like China and Russia will support (or at the very least, won't condemn) a country's right to defend itself and go after those that are firing rockets into its homeland. Continually firing rockets into Israel weakens Palestinian international support, and perversely strengthens Israel's support to keep doing more and more damage to Palestine.
 

Vibranium

Banned
No lmao. Canada's PM is in full support of Israel bombing Palestine. He thinks they're the victims.

Sorry about Stephen Harper and the Conservatives. With any luck (damn our horrible voting system) they will go bye-bye around late 2015.

Harper embarrasses Canada so much, he didn't even mention innocent Palestinians caught in the crossfire in his latest statement condemning Hamas, just Israel....
 

TarNaru33

Banned
And that public pressure came about because the Vietnamese people just stopped fighting, right?

How did the Vietnamese beat the Americans

There is a big difference between Vietnam and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. It would be silly for me to have to point out these vast differences.

Does "be realistic" mean stop caring about civilian casualties?

Nope, it means stop stating "Israel don't care about civilians in their air strikes", when there is 1,300+ airstrikes and 179 total deaths (including Hamas members). In war there will be calculations done that will determine whether civilian deaths are unavoidable or "necessary" to their war goals. This does not mean that the one doing it does not care for civilians.

I am saying stop stating such things as fact in an emotionally driven post.. Morality isn't the sole decider of who will win or lose in a conflict and who shall be punished and for what. The trials after WW2 demonstrates this, with allies not punishing many of their own for war crimes.

I have nothing against Palestinians and supporters of Palestinians and the same for Israel, however, oppression does not immediately justify Hama's actions and it leads to worse for those in Gaza.

Please just research the countries who actually have the power to change this conflict and tell me that they are outright condemning Israel. While they note Israel's retaliation is high and even excessive, they fully support Israel's right to self-defense.

Then tell me... How this is helping Palestinians. I think my method is more fruitful and it haven't been approached until the last damn decade, give economic cooperation time and it will definitely show results. It is a long term goal, but it is one that can work.
 

LNBL

Member
Sorry about Stephen Harper and the Conservatives. With any luck (damn our horrible voting system) they will go bye-bye around late 2015.

Harper embarrasses Canada so much, he didn't even mention innocent Palestinians caught in the crossfire in his latest statement condemning Hamas, just Israel....

Sounds exactly like what the Dutch Prime minister said "Israel does not shoot rockets at Gaza" and also avoiding questions about the high number of civilian casualties. Telling his people to look at the facts, yet his view on how this conflict started is not based on any correct facts.

By most nations, I mean most nations that actually have some power and influence in international affairs. The US, much of Europe - hell, even nations like China and Russia will support (or at the very least, won't condemn) a country's right to defend itself and go after those that are firing rockets into its homeland. Continually firing rockets into Israel weakens Palestinian international support, and perversely strengthens Israel's support to keep doing more and more damage to Palestine.

Besides, you think those leaders would speak out for Palestina if they wanted to?
These leaders are busy with their own agenda and to be fair it would be inconvenient for them to condemn Israel, seeing as many important allies blindly side besides Israel. As i said before, I'm happy to see that more and more are using their own eyes instead of solely believing agenda driven public representatives.
 

JordanN

Banned
...

And the draft happened because?

And there were protesters because?

And there were massacres because?

Seriously what are you even saying. In what world does the Vietnamese continuing to fight NOT contribute to the war becoming an expensive (politically and financially) boondoggle for the US? If they hadn't fought... what would have happened?

The whole point is that losing battles can still win the war, especially against an opponent that is much stronger than you. This has happened many times in history.
I didn't say the Vietnamese stopped fighting. I said, the reasons for leaving Vietnam run much deeper than just fighting them.
By the way, it was only after the U.S signed the peace treaty and withdrew completely, did Vietnam fall to the communists (the north attacked the south).
 

maharg

idspispopd
There is a big difference between Vietnam and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. It would be silly for me to have to point out these vast differences.

Did someone say they were exactly the same?

If the West Bank and Gaza were on the complete opposite side of the earth to Israel.

Please expand on this, I'm not at all sure what you're saying. Please note that while all these conflicts (including the Israel/Palestine conflict, for that matter) are colonial in origin, one of the three I listed was post-colonial and involved people fighting within a country.
 
Continually firing rockets into Israel weakens Palestinian international support...

Well, no, it plainly doesn't, because "international support" doesn't exist in the first place. How can it weaken? "international support" = colonization of Palestine. That's what "power and influence" has wrought over half a century. You can attempt to frame this as a matter of international norms, a matter of defense, but that decontextualizes the very nature of the conflict. The occupation isn't supported on paper, but operationally it wouldn't exist without "international support". So what are you asking Palestinians to appeal to?
 

Quotient

Member
Did someone say they were exactly the same?



Please expand on this, I'm not at all sure what you're saying. Please note that while all these conflicts (including the Israel/Palestine conflict, for that matter) are colonial in origin, one of the three I listed was post-colonial and involved people fighting within a country.

On my phone again, so I can't link, but the idea was suggested that the Vietnam war and Haitian war were example where occupied people through resistance were able to gain the independence, and that the Palestinians may be able to emulate.
 

TarNaru33

Banned
Did someone say they were exactly the same?

When one state something like this:

How did the Vietnamese beat the Americans

Then others proceed to respond as if the comparison is valid, then yes, one is saying it is the same. You should note my wording, I did not say anyone said its exactly the same. I am saying that they are so different the comparison is completely baseless.

There are too many factors at play in U.S's pullout, sure the North Vietnamese fighting is one of those factors, but it is a small factor in it.

That war was happening during one of U.S's most critical civil rights movements. The country was already full of unrest for one example. I really shouldn't have to explain the others.


EDIT: Thanks Quotient, that is pretty much what I am saying, but you said it shorter and more directly.
 
When one state something like this:



Then others proceed to respond as if the comparison is valid, then yes, one is saying it is the same. You should note my wording, I did not say anyone said its exactly the same. I am saying that they are so different the comparison is completely baseless.

There are too many factors at play in U.S's pullout, sure the North Vietnamese fighting is one of those factors, but it is a small factor in it.

That war was happening during one of U.S's most critical civil rights movements. The country was already full of unrest for one example. I really shouldn't have to explain the others.

I was responding to someone claiming it was impossible for the Palestinians to win when the Israelis have far greater resources (and apparently has no concept of how guerilla warfare works), I never claimed they were the same or even very similar at all besides being examples of irregular warfare.
 

maharg

idspispopd
When one state something like this:



Then others proceed to respond as if the comparison is valid, then yes, one is saying it is the same. You should note my wording, I did not say anyone said its exactly the same. I am saying that they are so different the comparison is completely baseless.

There are too many factors at play in U.S's pullout, sure the North Vietnamese fighting is one of those factors, but it is a small factor in it.

That war was happening during one of U.S's most critical civil rights movements. The country was already full of unrest for one example. I really shouldn't have to explain the others.

This is only relevant if you consider the comparison only valid in its totality. On the question of whether armed struggle against an overwhelmingly superior adversary can have a positive outcome for the weaker party, it's an entirely useful and valid data point in support, even though the struggles and circumstances are different.

The assertion that started this conversation was the idea that there is no way losing battles can lead to winning a war. That is plainly untrue, and Vietnam is definitely an example of that fact.

This is the kickoff to this conversation:

JordanN said:
How can the Palestinians think any kind of war they do will have an effect on Israel? They're drinking a lot of kool-aid if they think Israel will surrender, despite Israel having fought many wars with far tougher opponents, but they always won.
 

Vibranium

Banned
Sounds exactly like what the Dutch Prime minister said "Israel does not shoot rockets at Gaza" and also avoiding questions about the high number of civilian casualties. Telling his people to look at the facts, yet his view on how this conflict started is not based on any correct facts.

Heh. It's sad how things have to be in politics.
 

TarNaru33

Banned
I was responding to someone claiming it was impossible for the Palestinians to win when the Israelis have far greater resources (and apparently has no concept of how guerilla warfare works), I never claimed they were the same or even very similar at all besides being examples of irregular warfare.

In honesty I have no idea about the Haitian part, but Vietnam is still too different. While guerrilla warfare work, it mainly worked against a force that was extremely distant and had many other disadvantages.

It is almost impossible for Palestinians to win using guerrilla warfare. They are too close to Israel and Israel have full control of the airspace and water. Such strict control on Palestine makes this type of resistance futile.

Israel is definitely way too powerful for such tactics. Palestine do not have what is necessary to break hold enough to continue a fight like this.

This is only relevant if you consider the comparison only valid in its totality. On the question of whether armed struggle against an overwhelmingly superior adversary can have a positive outcome for the weaker party, it's an entirely useful and valid data point in support, even though the struggles and circumstances are different.

The assertion that started this conversation was the idea that there is no way losing battles can lead to winning a war. That is plainly untrue, and Vietnam is definitely an example of that fact.

This is the kickoff to this conversation:

See above.

How about this... Give me an instance in which guerrilla warfare caused a significant power to submit while near the conditions that Israel has on Palestine, because I can't think of one. Then I shall agree that it is possible.
 
In other news:

http://electronicintifada.net/blogs...ion-sets-war-room-sell-gaza-massacre-facebook

Israel student union sets up “war room” to sell Gaza massacre on Facebook

As the death toll from Israel’s savage bombardment of Gaza continues to climb, Israel has once again turned to students to sell the slaughter online.

“Although they haven’t been called up to the army yet, they’ve decided to enlist in a civilian mission that is no less important – Israeli propaganda [hasbara],” Ynet’s Hebrew edition reported about a massive initiative organized by the Israeli student union branch at the Interdisciplinary Center Herzliya (IDC Herzliya), a prestigious private university.

Hasbara war room

“Hasbara,” literally “explaining,” is the term used in Israel for government propaganda aimed at overseas audiences.

“The goal is to deliver a very clear message to people abroad – Israel has the right to defend itself,” Lidor Bar David told Ynet.

At least 168 Palestinians have been killed since Israel massively escalated its attack on Gaza on 7 July. Eighty percent of the fatalities are civilians, according to the United Nations.

Thirty-six Palestinian children have been killed and more than 1,200 people have been injured. Thousands are fleeing homes fearing escalating Israeli attacks which have so far destroyed or severely damaged 940 homes, as well as numerous mosques, schools, businesses and charities.

A video accompanying the Ynet report shows rows of students beavering away at computers in a hall with a sign on its door saying “Advocacy Room” in English. In Hebrew, it says “Hasbara war room.”

Bar David, a student, and one of the organizers of the “war room,” adds, “We want people abroad who don’t know our reality to understand exactly what is going on here.”

While Ynet does not reveal specific government ties to this initiative, the National Union of Israeli Students, of which the IDC Herzliya student union is an affiliate, has a history of working on government-funded propaganda schemes, where students are recruited as the country’s “pretty face.”

“Organized lying”

Last year a “covert” Israeli government initiative came to light which planned to pay students for spreading propaganda online.

“The whole point of such efforts is to look like they are unofficial, just every day people chatting online,” Israel expert Dena Shunra told The Electronic Intifada.

“But in fact, these are campaigns of organized lying, orchestrated with government-approved talking points and crowdsourced volunteers and stipend recipients,” Shunra added.


According to Ynet, “The war room was opened in the afternoon of the first day of Operation Protective Edge,” one week ago, by the IDC Herzliya student union, and currently has more than 400 volunteers active in it, all students at the institution.

Working in 30 languages, the students working this comment far target online forums including so called “anti-Israel” pages on Facebook and comments sections of online media.

Tomer Amsalem, a second-year year psychology student, acts as one of the war room’s graphic designers.

“In one of our graphics we show the treatment that members of [Hamas leader] Ismail Haniyeh’s and Abu Mazen’s [Palestinian Authority leader Mahmoud Abbas] families received in Israel, to show we’re even humanitarian to the families of the Palestinian leaders,” he told Ynet.


“In another graphic we show the trauma of the children living around Gaza, which is expressed in drawings of Qassams [rockets]. Another example is a series of cities around the world, being attacked. For example, Berlin – we wrote in German ‘What would you do?’ with a background of Berlin being attacked,’” Amsalem added.

Amsalem is quoted as saying that he sees his work in the “war room” as a civilian equivalent to being called up for military reserves.

Inbal Deutsch, another psychology student who moved to Israel four years ago, responds to comments. She focuses on misattributed photos – photos occasionally circulated online that show scenes that are either not current or not from Gaza. Israel propagandists likely hope that by debunking such pictures they can sow doubt about all too common real pictures of atrocities currently being committed in Gaza.

Yarden Ben Yosef, chair of the IDC student union, is described as the person who initiated the war room.

“Yesterday we managed to pull down a whole Facebook page that incited against Israel and called for the killing of Jews,” Ben Yosef claimed.

“It had 120,000 followers and Facebook took it down after a lot of activity on our part,” Ben Yosef said.


If true, that is in marked contrast to Facebook’s total inaction, despite complaints, to control the pervasive, raging incitement to racism and violence by Israelis on Facebook who support the slaughter of Palestinians.

Student role in government propaganda

Bar David is quoted as saying that “the war room was founded as a continuation from Operation Pillar of Cloud,” Israel’s November 2012 assault on Gaza that killed more than 170 people, again overwhelmingly civilians.

Indeed, the effort to recruit students into government propaganda has a well-documented history, as The Electronic Intifada has reported:

Head of Israel’s “covert” social media program suspended over anti-Japanese Facebook posts (15 August 2013)

“Hasbara” courses at Israeli universities exposed in new report (15 July 2013)

Israel’s “pretty face”: How National Union of Israeli Students does government’s propaganda dirty work (5 January 2012)

Israeli students to get $2,000 to spread state propaganda on Facebook (4 January 2012)

With thanks to Dena Shunra for research and translation.

Videoes of the "War Room" at the link. Maybe we have some of these "warriors" on this forum too ?
 
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