• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Breaking: Israel launches Operation Protective Edge against Hamas in Gaza

Status
Not open for further replies.

No, you obviously haven't. He was responding to GYO saying that regardless of what Israel does, Israel should always exist.

No country has a right to exist that supersedes other rights. If a country continuously oppresses others/its people, it doesn't have a right to exist. If North Korea suddenly starts culling its population, it does not have a right to exist.
 

collige

Banned
No, you obviously haven't. He was responding to GYO saying that regardless of what Israel does, Israel should always exist.

No country has a right to exist that supersedes other rights. If a country continuously oppresses others/its people, it doesn't have a right to exist. If North Korea suddenly starts culling its population, it does not have a right to exist.

I think the blame exists on the governmental administration, not the existence of the country itself. Germany didn't cease being a country after WW2, they just got rid of all the Nazis.
 

JordanN

Banned
So what if Britain controlled the mandate? Do you think any people would be happy if their land was given to some foreign group? If a bunch of Polish people settled in India and Britain gave some Indian land to the Poles during partition, would India be happy?
Being happy =/= legality.

Israel was founded on land owned by the United Nations. There is no debate about theft, Israel had the right to declare independence.

Whoa there. Are you saying no Palestinians were forcibly displaced in the creation of Israel? Because that's just plain not true.

I continue to think that this kind of blame game is unproductive and stupid, but at least be accurate about it.
That came after the fact, the Palestinians rejected partition, leading to all out war and displacement. Before then, Jews were in ownership of land solely bought by them.
 

nib95

Banned
No it doesn't. I think everyone can agree that settlements are wrong. So what do you suggest may be a solution to the current Israeli-Palestinian conundrum?

- Two state solution based on 67 borders.
- Full retraction of all settlements passed those borders.
- Palestine given full sovereignty.
- Complete Israeli occupational withdrawl.
- Including returning Palestines access to its own roads, air space, ports, trade, electricity, supplies etc.

I think the above is the only really fair, humane, and legal terms that one could expect. Funnily enough, it's what Palestine and now Hamas, agree to and would accept.
 

Quotient

Member
- Two state solution based on 67 borders.
- Full retraction of all settlements passed those borders.
- Palestine given full sovereignty.
- Complete Israeli occupational withdrawl.
- Including returning Palestines access to its own roads, air space, ports, trade, electricity, supplies etc.

I think the above is the only really fair, humane, and legal terms that one could expect. Funnily enough, it's what Palestine and now Hamas, agree to and would accept.

Sorry. I should have clarified: realistic solution. Do you honestly believe any of what you listed is viable?
 
There's a difference between claiming Israel should be dismantled is 2014 and question the admittedly shady circumstances behind its original creation. No one is doing the former.

When you artificially define what these arguments are saying and not saying of course you'll find no problem with them. But others read whats been written and hear things you don't.

When people are questioning the legitimacy and openly saying it was a mistake, justifying antisemitism, and using stock antisemitic characterizations are you supposed to believe that's all just an academic exercise?

There are no calls for a one state solutions? There are no calls for the end of the state as a Jewish country? That there wasn't open warfare against you not 40 years ago?

You can't pretend these are minor quibbles.

- Two state solution based on 67 borders.
- Full retraction of all settlements passed those borders.
- Palestine given full sovereignty.
- Complete Israeli occupational withdrawl.
- Including returning Palestines access to its own roads, air space, ports, trade, electricity, supplies etc.

I think the above is the only really fair, humane, and legal terms that one could expect. Funnily enough, it's what Palestine and now Hamas, agree to and would accept.

You keep saying that. One news article doesn't make this fact. Just like I could post Bibi saying he supports two states which you'd dismiss out of hand.

No, you obviously haven't. He was responding to GYO saying that regardless of what Israel does, Israel should always exist.

No country has a right to exist that supersedes other rights. If a country continuously oppresses others/its people, it doesn't have a right to exist. If North Korea suddenly starts culling its population, it does not have a right to exist.

So I claim 'people are questioning Israel's right to exist' you respond with that's not what is being said and clarify that Israel might one lose its right to exist.

I think I'm reading what's written.

Sorry. I should have clarified: realistic solution. Do you honestly believe any of what you listed is viable?

All of that's viable if you change the borders. Based around 67 is viable. The exact borders aren't
 
Because the Jews use to have their own country there. When they went in exile, they had to put up with centuries of antisemitism with no voice to protect them.

Without [modern] Israel, you wouldn't hear cases like nazi criminal Eichmann being arrested and tried. Or how they rescued black Jews from famine. Israel has also shown they are committed to fighting terror globally and they contribute a lot to the sciences.
If you don't think Israel should exist, I hope you're not posting on a computer using an Intel CPU.



Jews and Muslims have shared that land for longer than one can remember. Israel is there now, and by the looks of it they aren't leaving. So what do you suggest would be a realistic solution to the problem?

Shared it for long, very true, but opposed to what's happening now they shared it peacefully and harmoniously.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Palestinian_people

In 1882 the population numbered approximately 320,000 people, 25,000 of whom were Jewish.[3] Many of these were Arab Jews and in the narrative works of Arabs in Palestine in the late Ottoman period - as evidenced in the autobiographies and diaries of Khalil Sakakini and Wasif Jawhariyyeh - "native" Jews were often referred to as abnaa al-balad (sons of the country), 'compatriots', or Yahud awlad Arab ("Jews, sons of Arabs").[4]

Before the Zionist movement rose in Europe that is.

All the medical or technological advancements and achievements in the world cannot hide the actions of the state itself though. It is very admirable that this country, this small dot, can achieve so much in so little time (relatively), but also very worrying and scary how far it will go to expand and opress what it sees as it's opponents.

It is worrysome how institutionalized racism is so present evne todays Israeli society that throwing asylum seekers in an desert open-detention center and calling it a day is normal business.

Not to talk about the institutionalized racism that Palestinian citizens face every day and racism against Mizrahi and Sephardi Jews, blacks and even asian jews as they struggled for acknowledgement from the state of Israel after it's foundation.

You posted some nice links, but I'm pretty sure that does not tell the whole story of Israel. The Israeli state has made amazing leaps in technological achievements, yes. But it has also taken it's part in some of the most heinous actions in the history of mankind, one of them being the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians throughout and after the '48 war, shown and documented by the New Historians.

So I ask again, seeing that the only argument you gave, other than the links, does the fact that they were there thousands of years ago, legitimize the continued oppression on another people for the sake of an Jewish state ?
 
Whoa there. Are you saying no Palestinians were forcibly displaced in the creation of Israel? Because that's just plain not true.

I continue to think that this kind of blame game is unproductive and stupid, but at least be accurate about it.
The Palestinians definitely got the short end of the stick, but it's a little too late now that the bun has been out of the oven for decades.

It's unfortunate that we're basically back to being stuck arguing over the morality of the existence of the state of Israel or how Israel continues to expand through settlements, none of this actually addresses how this round of hostilities can be ended, while Palestinians continue to die and Gaza continues to turn into a shithole. One thing is for certain, firing rockets won't bring an end to this, it doesn't help the situation, bombings and airstrikes are literally turning the Gaza strip into flat land.
 

nib95

Banned
That came after the fact, the Palestinians rejected partition, leading to all out war and displacement. Before then, Jews were in ownership of land solely bought by them.
Revolutionist history or what. Israels push for a State in the region was successful mainly as a result of pressure and increased violence in the region, and towards the British by Israeli terrorist organisations such as Irgun and Lehi.

In particular this penultimate incident.

Hanged_sergeants.jpg


After the death sentences of the three were confirmed, the Irgun tried to save them by kidnapping hostages — British sergeants Clifford Martin and Mervyn Paice — in the streets of Netanya. British forces closed off and combed the area in search of the two, but did not find them. On July 29, 1947, in the afternoon, Meir Nakar, Avshalom Haviv, and Yaakov Weiss were executed. Approximately thirteen hours later the hostages were hanged in retaliation by the Irgun and their bodies, booby-trapped with an explosive, afterwards strung up from trees in woodlands south of Netanya. This action caused an outcry in Britain and was condemned both there and by Jewish leaders in Palestine.[42]

This episode has been given as a major influence on the British decision to terminate the Mandate and leave Palestine. The United Nations Special Committee on Palestine (UNSCOP) was also influenced by this and other actions.
 
That came after the fact, the Palestinians rejected partition, leading to all out war and displacement. Before then, Jews were in ownership of land solely bought by them.

Jews bought some land yes. Let us try to take a look at the numbers though.

No more no less.

The rest was gained by pushing the indiginous natives out of the areas they lived in with actions of terror and violence.
 
And again "we're not question Israel's right to exist" but were going to push a narrative that Israel seemingly only exists because they were a bunch of terrorists and scared and stole land.
 

nib95

Banned
Sorry. I should have clarified: realistic solution. Do you honestly believe any of what you listed is viable?
If the US and Israel's relationship fell through, and they no longer defended and vetoed Israel out of damning UN resolutions, then yes. It's obvious Israel don't want the above terms, and by virtue do not want peace, but most of the world does, and by international law the terms I've posted are fair, just and legal. If it wasn't for the US vetoes, I honestly feel that by now the UN could have played a more prominent role in firstly getting more support, aid and presence in Palestine, but also in agreeing to economic and trade sanctions that could have pressured Israel in to changing course.
 
That came after the fact, the Palestinians rejected partition, leading to all out war and displacement. Before then, Jews were in ownership of land solely bought by them.
Why should the Arabs have agreed to creating an artificial country on their land and dispersing their own population?
 

Dead Man

Member
There's a difference between claiming Israel should be dismantled is 2014 and question the admittedly shady circumstances behind its original creation. No one is doing the former.

Does it fuck your argument if I say I think no country should have a religious or ethnic basis to it's laws or existence? I sort of do think Israel as it currently exists is not compatible with democratic secularism and modern ideas of universal human rights. It is an artefact of the crappy process Britain and the UN employed when creating the state.

Sorry if that fucks your argument :)

That came after the fact, the Palestinians rejected partition, leading to all out war and displacement. Before then, Jews were in ownership of land solely bought by them.

So because they rejected partition they had no rights to the land they were on? What?
 

Quotient

Member
If the US and Israel's relationship fell through, and they no longer defended and vetoed Israel out of damning UN resolutions, then yes. It's obvious Israel don't want the above, and by virtue do not want peace, but most of the world does, and by international law the terms I've posted are fair, just and legal. If it wasn't for the US vetoes, I honestly feel that by now the UN could have played a more prominent role in firstly getting more support, aid and presence in Palestine, but also in agreeing to economic and trade sanctions that could have pressured Israel in to changing course.

Sure, but the US veto isn't changing any time soon, just like Israel isn't leaving anytime soon. So what would be a realistically viable solution?
 
And again "we're not question Israel's right to exist" but were going to push a narrative that Israel seemingly only exists because they were a bunch of terrorists and scared and stole land.

Well, looking a the actual historical happenings I really couldn't come up with any other conclusion.

They did buy off a cumulated 7 procent of the land by 47', but the rest was taken by force. It's right there in the statistics.

And why should the Arabs have agreed to partition the land ? A sudden influx of Jews and they suddenly want half your country and they should just have bowed down ?

Actually the thing giving me hope that the Palestinian people will gain victory in some form in the future is actually the jews themselves.

They had no state, no hope in their horrors of holocaust and pogroms but they persevered and made it happen. This will happen to the Palestinian people one day too.
 
And again "we're not question Israel's right to exist" but were going to push a narrative that Israel seemingly only exists because they were a bunch of terrorists and scared and stole land.
The truth hurts doesn't it? Israel in its current form has no right to exist. Not at the expense of actual human lives.
 

JordanN

Banned
Why should the Arabs have agreed to creating an artificial country on their land and dispersing their own population?
It was put to a vote. They lost. It's no longer their land if the UN deems it.
I don't get how you can argue against the UN. The mandate was in their control.
 
Does it fuck your argument if I say I think no country should have a religious or ethnic basis to it's laws or existence? I sort of do think Israel as it currently exists is not compatible with democratic secularism and modern ideas of universal human rights. It is an artefact of the crappy process Britain and the UN employed when creating the state.

Sorry if that fucks your argument :)

Yeah, its a blatant double standard. I would hope you call for the end of Ireland, Greece, Spain, Japan as well.

Israel isn't 'only for Jews' like you imply. But the idea the Jews are different than other nations is an old idea.

The truth hurts doesn't it? Israel in its current form has no right to exist. Not at the expense of actual human lives.
So if the Jews of Israel give up their self-determination then Israel can exist. Seems fair?

And that's not the 'truth' , there were instances of Jewish terrorism yes the played a part in the creation of the state. But that's not the whole story and presenting that as the only story is disingenuous at best and antisemitic at worst

Just like that the 'truth' of the future Palestinian state isn't going to be the nation was formed on the backs of suicide bombers killing innocents or rockets from Hamas. Because its one part of the story, not the whole and doesn't represent the entirety of the movement

Well, looking a the actual historical happenings I really couldn't come up with any other conclusion.

They did buy off a cumulated 7 procent of the land by 47', but the rest was taken by force. It's right there in the statistics.

And why should the Arabs have agreed to partition the land ? A sudden influx of Jews and they suddenly want half your country and they should just have bowed down ?

Actually the thing giving me hope that the Palestinian people will gain victory in some form in the future is actually the jews themselves.

They had no state, no hope in their horrors of holocaust and pogroms but they persevered and made it happen. This will happen to the Palestinian people one day too.
I'm not disputing numbers (though those don't tell the whole story because who 'owned' the arab land?) but you selective history which seeks one portrait of the state. I don't dispute that's the one the Palestinian people see but to ignore the Israel side and present only one set of facts dismissing the others isn't 'the historical record'

Trust me I used to do the same thing in reverse. I stopped because it was 1) inaccurate 2) useless 3) counterproductive.
 
Hamas fires rockets into Israel because they know the resulting aftermath will always work politically in their favour. Casualties will be overwhelmingly on the Palestinian side because of their inferior military which is great propaganda for them. It also keeps more radical groups from taking power over Hamas by keeping a strong face.

There was a quote from a leader of Kurdistan that summed it up well - the Kurds built a functional democracy under the heel of Saddam Hussein, what have the Palestinians built in the last 20 years? Even if you wanted to negotiate with the Palestinians there is no authority to negotiate with, since Hamas controls Gaza.
 

Dead Man

Member
Yeah, its a blatant double standard. I would hope you call for the end of Ireland, Greece, Spain, Japan as well.

Israel isn't 'only for Jews' like you imply. But the idea the Jews are different than other nations is an old idea.

As places having state religions? Of course. As places that favour one ethnic or cultural group over others. Yes. Is that a problem? Is it that fucking shocking that a person might have a consistent dislike of these things? I never said it was only for Jews. There are many different people who live there.

Edit: You forgot the UK in your list of countries I think need changing. Also, note I don't think that Israel should cease to exist. I think that in it's current incarnation it is incompatible with the values I hold.
 

nib95

Banned
Sure, but the US veto isn't changing any time soon, just like Israel isn't leaving anytime soon. So what would be a realistically viable solution?
The only thing at this present time is continued international pressure (not just from governments but people around the world with continued protests in the thousands etc). Hopefully a Palestinian bid towards being a full UN member state (even if the US vetoes it as they will, it's more of a symbolic thing). And sanctions from nations around the world to try and pressure Israel in to changing course, notably by placing special sanctions on any Israeli goods derived from the illegally occupied settlements (which the EU has already semi placed). Ideally goods coming from such settlements should be made illegal in themselves.

Ultimately though, there is always a possibility that Israel will eventually just piss off the US enough that the tide of narrative and support changes. Netanyahu was caught recently on tape basically admitting he'd misled the US with the OSLO agreements, and also that the US was easily manipulated or easy to move. Add to that, they sold US military equipment and information to China, which angered the US. If Israel keeps up these antics, I can't imagine the US/Israel relationship will stay peachy for too many more decades, but who really knows?
 
Yeah, its a blatant double standard. I would hope you call for the end of Ireland, Greece, Spain, Japan as well.

Israel isn't 'only for Jews' like you imply. But the idea the Jews are different than other nations is an old idea.

It has been since it's foundation. Proved through the early fight of many prominent Jewish and Zionist thinkers against what they perceived as threats to this Jewish society. This fight is still going on today by right wing jewish racist and other groups against blacks, arabs and anyone they deem as a threat to the integrity of the Jewish state.

What we see in Israel when it comes to issues of stereotyping in society is generally a collective shrug of the shoulders. Discriminatory actions are regarded primarily as a problem of the victims, who are deemed “incensed” but not taken seriously. And not as a societywide issue. Deeply offensive actions, such as dressing up like the KKK in a community where there are numerous Ethiopians, is poked fun at, with one paper calling it an “epic fail.” Surveys show that Israelis tend to be insular in their views of diversity; a 2013 Israel Democracy Institute survey found that 47% of Jews did not want to live next to an Arab family, while 41% of Arabs didn’t want to live next to Jews. Commentators tend to see this as evidence of a society that is increasingly fraught with racism. But an examination of a history of ethnic and race relations in Israel, focusing particularly on mass media, tends to show that the problem is deeply rooted in the past. Contemporary society has never confronted this history, and it cannot begin the process of learning from it.

A little noticed 2011 book by academic Etan Bloom revealed that the father of Israeli sociology and a leading Zionist of the British Mandate named Arthur Ruppin, was a believer in eugenics. In 1919 he argued that the Jewish race should be “purified” and that it was “desirable that only the racially pure come to the land.” As head of the Palestine Office of the Zionist Executive (later the Jewish Agency for Israel), he put his purity schemes into practice, arguing that Ethiopian Jews should not be permitted to immigrate, because “they have no blood connection,” and arguing that Yemenite Jews should be brought only for menial labor.

Ruppin and his fellow travelers were able to influence the Zionist movement, tragically in retrospect, to view non-Europeans as a different caste and to back up their arguments with outdated theories of eugenists. For instance, Chaim Sheba, who became director general of the Health Ministry in 1950, argued, according to a 2005 report that “a high concentration of those ill in body and soul would jeopardize the future of Jewish community in Israel. To support his argument, he used examples from genetic theories which purported to show national gene pools weakened through a lack of genetic vigilance.” Sheba was influential in temporarily preventing Cochin Jews from immigrating. The communist newspaper Davar asserted that a community “with numerous sick, decadent, unrestrained elements will not withstand the social and security test.” Haaretz writer Arieh Gledblum claimed in 1950 that North African Jews’ “primitivism is unsurpassed…. They have little talent for comprehending anything intellectual” and “lack any roots in Judaism.”

Since the 1950s, this legacy of ethnocentrism has haunted Israel. When the philosopher Hannah Arendt visited Israel in 1961, she described her fear of Jews who “looked Arab but spoke Hebrew,” calling them “an Oriental mob.” In 1981, singer Dudu Topaz castigated non-Ashkenazi Jewish voters as “chachachim,” a derogatory term. In 1983, Shulamit Aloni lambasted Sephardic Shas supporters as “barbarous tribal forces.” Shmuel Schnitzer, a journalist, described in 1995 Ethiopian Jews as “thousands of apostates bearing disease.” Noted author Amos Elon pondered in 1953 what effect Moroccan Jews’ “uncontrolled fertility would have on the Jewish people’s genetic robustness,” and in a 2004 interview he was still claiming that “political primitiveness” came from immigrants to Israel.

This narrative of what Ehud Barak called a “villa in the jungle” has cast an immense shadow over the ability to confront racism in Israel. Stereotyping against citizens who are not considered European-origin “sabras” has been an integral part of the left and right, but ironically in Israel, it has been particularly virulent on the left. Ari Shavit states without compunction in his 2013 book “My Promised Land” that “many Oriental Jews are not aware of what Israel saved them from, a life of misery and backwardness in an Arab Middle East.” Israel Prize winner Anita Shapira’s “Israel: A History” even claimed in 2012 that Jews from Arab countries “were compelled to get used to physical work which in their countries of origin was considered demeaning.”

The discourse in Israel accepts such blanket orientalist and ignorant statements without question. In many respects, the understanding of stereotypes is still trapped in the 1950s. A demonstration on the International Day Against Racism garnered only 40 participants on March 21. Major newspapers don’t feel a need to apologize for printing claims that Russians have “crime in their blood” or that immigrants threaten the “demographic composition of the Jewish people.” People think dressing up like the KKK is “interesting” and consider that it might offend “only” Ethiopians. Jews abroad tend to be more offended than locals, and at the end of the day it is only the locals that can bring about the necessary change. Unfortunately, Ruppin has an academic center named after him, and the architect of the discriminatory “medical selection” policy of the 1950s, Sheba, has an eponymous hospital.


Read more: http://forward.com/articles/196719/israel-s-uncomfortable-history-of-racist-enginee/#ixzz37V8AUbe0
 

nib95

Banned
It was put to a vote. They lost. It's no longer their land if the UN deems it.
I don't get how you can argue against the UN. The mandate was in their control.
Agreed. But by the same token, everything beyond the 48 borders is illegal under UN and international law. As is the very occupation of Palestine in itself. This means that in compliance with the UN, all those settlements that have been built beyond the 48 borders on Palestinian land, are also illegal.
 
It has been since it's foundation. Proved through the early fight of many prominent Jewish and Zionist thinkers against what they perceived as threats to this Jewish society. This fight is still going on today by right wing jewish racist and other groups against blacks, arabs and anyone they deem as a threat to the integrity of the Jewish state.

THE STATE OF ISRAEL will be open for Jewish immigration and for the Ingathering of the Exiles; it will foster the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; it will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel; it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations.
WE APPEAL — in the very midst of the onslaught launched against us now for months — to the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve peace and participate in the upbuilding of the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its provisional and permanent institutions.

WE EXTEND our hand to all neighbouring states and their peoples in an offer of peace and good neighbourliness, and appeal to them to establish bonds of cooperation and mutual help with the sovereign Jewish people settled in its own land. The State of Israel is prepared to do its share in a common effort for the advancement of the entire Middle East.

That sure sounds like its only for Jews.

One can debate the reality vs. those words and the racism that is prevalent in Israeli society (similar with the US's Declaration) but misrepresenting what the founders wanted and the vast majority of Israelis want and instead casting all crimes committed in their state as representing the 'real Israel' does you no favors.

That and the constant use of Jewish self-criticism as a weapon of 'truth' went you don't seem to share the same ideas comes across as unseemly.
 

Yagharek

Member
It's relevant because it's used as justification for treating Jewish people like shit.

I think this is the point where people need to learn to distinguish between Jewish people and Israel as a political entity. I certainly know the difference, and I assume you do too.

Jewish people are just like anyone else. That they have been singled out in history is tragic. But Israel is a country, and it is a country that is violating human rights of a large number of people, pas and present.

So yeah, it's sad that people got assaulted and vilified in some demonstrations in France because they are Jewish. But that has nothing to do with the 100+ Palestinians who have died as a result of airstrikes launched by Israel. It is important to distinguish between the two.
 

Chichikov

Member
It was put to a vote. They lost. It's no longer their land if the UN deems it.
I don't get how you can argue against the UN. The mandate was in their control.
Let's get real here, the mandate was a legalistic attempt to whitewash colonialism.
I don't think it's all that productive to roll back the conflict that much backward, but at the same time, we shouldn't pretend that the shit the British did in the region has any sort of moral justification, with or without the blessing of the UN.

Yeah, its a blatant double standard. I would hope you call for the end of Ireland, Greece, Spain, Japan as well.

Israel isn't 'only for Jews' like you imply. But the idea the Jews are different than other nations is an old idea.
Israel self identify as a Jewish state.
It refuses to actually specify what that means, but we can certainly see it involve the Jews getting preferential treatment.
 
That sure sounds like its only for Jews.

One can debate the reality vs. those words and the racism that is prevalent in Israeli society (similar with the US's Declaration) but misrepresenting what the founders wanted and the vast majority of Israelis want and instead casting all crimes committed in their state as representing the 'real Israel' does you no favors.

That and the constant use of Jewish self-criticism as a weapon of 'truth' went you don't seem to share the same ideas comes across as unseemly.

Well my good man it's one thing what the god damn Decleration of Establishment of State of Israel SAYS, and what is actually happening throughout it's history!

You and we all know of the numerous cases of racism against blacks, arabs, Jews of arab origin and whatnot. Jews gets preferential treatment, that's a fact.

And why should the Jewish self-criticism be brushed away suddenly ? Isn't there some truth too it or are they just "self-hating"...
 
I knew that ashkenazi jews were (and still are) very picky about which kind of jews they procreate with but it's becoming more and more insular breeding. The jews are plagued by many genetic diseases because of the very racial views of procreating and they're still a small community in the middle east comparatively. The structural racism will not help their people in the long run. I hope they'll realize it.
 

Quotient

Member
The only thing at this present time is continued international pressure (not just from governments but people around the world with continued protests in the thousands etc). Hopefully a Palestinian bid towards being a full UN member state (even if the US vetoes it as they will, it's more of a symbolic thing). And sanctions from nations around the world to try and pressure Israel in to changing course, notably by placing special sanctions on any Israeli goods derived from the illegally occupied settlements (which the EU has already semi placed). Ideally goods coming from such settlements should be made illegal in themselves.

Ultimately though, there is always a possibility that Israel will eventually just piss off the US enough that the tide of narrative and support changes. Netanyahu was caught recently on tape basically admitting he'd misled the US with the OSLO agreements, and also that the US was easily manipulated or easy to move. Add to that, they sold US military equipment and information to China, which angered the US. If Israel keeps up these antics, I can't imagine the US/Israel relationship will stay peachy for too many more decades, but who really knows?

So in your mind it is a waiting game. The Palestinians just need to hold out another few more decades until the world comes around (if they ever do).

EDIT: You do realise that people around the world don't care about the Palestinian cause. Most of the world don't even know that a skirmish is currently going in Gaza - my wife wasn't aware of it and neither was anyone in my office. There was more interest in the World Cup than the deaths in Gaza.
 
I think this is the point where people need to learn to distinguish between Jewish people and Israel as a political entity. I certainly know the difference, and I assume you do too.

Jewish people are just like anyone else. That they have been singled out in history is tragic. But Israel is a country, and it is a country that is violating human rights of a large number of people, pas and present.

So yeah, it's sad that people got assaulted and vilified in some demonstrations in France because they are Jewish. But that has nothing to do with the 100+ Palestinians who have died as a result of airstrikes launched by Israel. It is important to distinguish between the two.

It does, the actions of Israel were used as justification for those actions.

Israel self identify as a Jewish state.
It refuses to actually specify what that means, but we can certainly see it involve the Jews getting preferential treatment.

As does Japan, As does Palestine, As does Greece, As does Ireland.
 

collige

Banned
When you artificially define what these arguments are saying and not saying of course you'll find no problem with them. But others read whats been written and hear things you don't.

When people are questioning the legitimacy and openly saying it was a mistake, justifying antisemitism, and using stock antisemitic characterizations are you supposed to believe that's all just an academic exercise?

There are no calls for a one state solutions? There are no calls for the end of the state as a Jewish country? That there wasn't open warfare against you not 40 years ago?

You can't pretend these are minor quibbles.
I should have specified that i was talking about people in this thread (though that's not true now either). My point was Israel's original creation happened under not so great circumstances at a time when people should have generally known better.

Does it fuck your argument if I say I think no country should have a religious or ethnic basis to it's laws or existence? I sort of do think Israel as it currently exists is not compatible with democratic secularism and modern ideas of universal human rights. It is an artefact of the crappy process Britain and the UN employed when creating the state.

Sorry if that fucks your argument :)

Of course no country should have a religious basis, but many, many countries do and none of them are going to be dismantled either. the right course of action is to change the countries.
 
It was put to a vote. They lost. It's no longer their land if the UN deems it.
I don't get how you can argue against the UN. The mandate was in their control.
That still does not answer the question as to why Arabs should simply abide by it. If today UN agrees to carve out an artificial country in the middle of US, supplanting it's current population, how would you think the native population would react? It's imperialism plain and simple.
 

JordanN

Banned
You know, the funny thing about partition is the Palestinians should have seen it coming.

There were plans to split up Palestine as early as 1936 and Israel was way smaller.

ibkeBFIRIqzP2h.jpg


While it's hindsight now, you can't say the Palestinians never had the chance to get more. Just shows you fighting has the opposite effect.
 
As does Japan, As does Palestine, As does Greece, As does Ireland.

In these states, a certain segment of the population does not get preferential treatment to land and housing for example.

Israel stating that itself is a jewish state while also giving preferiental treatment to jews is something unique in the world.

EDIT: You do realise that people around the world don't care about the Palestinian cause. Most of the world don't even know that a skirmish is currently going in Gaza - my wife wasn't aware of it and neither was anyone in my office. There was more interest in the World Cup than the deaths in Gaza

Well news services world wide reporting minute by minute about it, and demonstrations throughout the world by pro-palestinians, this very thread, tell me otherwise. Have you given up on this debate or something spewing shit like that ?
 
That still does not answer the question as to why Arabs should simply abide by it. If today UN agrees to carve out an artificial country in the middle of US, supplanting it's current population, how would you think the native population would react? It's imperialism plain and simple.

It isn't an exact analogy because Palestine wasn't a state at the time of the partition, but that did happen. The US was founded on the displacement of the Native Americans.
 

Quotient

Member
It has been since it's foundation. Proved through the early fight of many prominent Jewish and Zionist thinkers against what they perceived as threats to this Jewish society. This fight is still going on today by right wing jewish racist and other groups against blacks, arabs and anyone they deem as a threat to the integrity of the Jewish state.

So a group of right-wing radicals don't want people of different color or religion in their country. Are we talking about Israel, or the US or any other country on Earth.
 

Yagharek

Member
It does, the actions of Israel were used as justification for those actions.

Let's examine that logic then shall we.

In France, anti-semitic protestors attack/assault Jewish sites and people in response to events in Israel and Palestine.

Meanwhile by the same logic in Israel. Three boys are kidnapped and eventually killed. In response, Israeli youth kidnap and burn alive a Palestinian youth in an act of revenge. Further, the state of Israel launches military action and kills over 100 people.

The most disgusting behaviour has been undertaken by Israel.
 
It isn't an exact analogy because Palestine wasn't a state at the time of the partition, but that did happen. The US was founded on the displacement of the Native Americans.

Maybe not. I'm trying to understand why ANY native population would welcome an artificial country on their land and not react with war/violence. The imperialists knew better.
 

JordanN

Banned
Also, not all Palestinians were against living in Israel.

Abu Ghosh is a famous Palestinian town who allied themselves with Israel (both before and after the 1948 war).
 

Chichikov

Member
As does Japan, As does Palestine, As does Greece, As does Ireland.
It's a very different situation in Israel.
You can be an atheist and still be considered a Jew and benefit from the preferential treatment Jews get in Israel, which is not the case in Japan and Greece.
This ethnic (or ethnoreligious) discrimination and a lot of it is not related to religious affairs.

But even on religious affairs, shit is much more pervasive than in the countries you listed, I mean shit, it's impossible for Jews to marry non-Jews in Israel (and no, you can't renounce your Judaism, if you born like that, your options are to find a Jewish woman or get married abroad), I'm not super familiar with Irish marriage laws, but I'm going to go on a limb and guess this is not the case.
 

Quotient

Member
And here we go again "But, what about..."

You love to post article and quotes talking about some of the shit Israel has done, acting as though Israel has only ever been the evil, monster and Palestinians are the Angels who never do any wrong - as if the situation is very back'n'white.

There have been some despicable acts done by both sides, does it make it good, of course not. The situation is what it is. We can always turn this thread into "What extremist shit has an Israeli done" and "What extremist shit has a Palestinian done". Folks can take their turn posting some deplorable crap and we can all admire.

I asked you before and you did not answer, so i'll ask again: How do see a viable and realistic solution for the current Israeli-Palestinian problem?
 

nib95

Banned
So in your mind it is a waiting game. The Palestinians just need to hold out another few more decades until the world comes around (if they ever do).

EDIT: You do realise that people around the world don't care about the Palestinian cause. Most of the world don't even know that a skirmish is currently going in Gaza - my wife wasn't aware of it and neither was anyone in my office. There was more interest in the World Cup than the deaths in Gaza.

Are you from Israel by any chance? Maybe in your world the rest of the world doesn't care, in reality thousands upon thousands are taking to the streets around the world to protest against Israels actions. There were thousands in London (UK) a few days back in a last minute solidarity show, and there will likely be as many if not more this Saturday. Same story in countries around the world. More so in places like Morocco where tens upon tens of thousands protested.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...and-new-york-in-wave-of-protests-9601826.html

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/14/anti-israeli-protesters-attack-paris-synagogue

http://m.smh.com.au/nsw/thousands-in-sydney-join-global-gaza-protests-20140713-zt61t.html

http://revolution-news.com/global-protests-peace-palestine/
 
Are you from Israel by any chance? Maybe in your world the rest of the world doesn't care, in reality thousands upon thousands are taking to the streets around the world to protest against Israels actions. There were thousands in London (UK) a few days back in a last minute solidarity show, and there will likely be as many if not more this Saturday. Same story in countries around the world. More so in places like Morocco where tens upon tens of thousands protested.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...and-new-york-in-wave-of-protests-9601826.html

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/14/anti-israeli-protesters-attack-paris-synagogue

http://m.smh.com.au/nsw/thousands-in-sydney-join-global-gaza-protests-20140713-zt61t.html

http://revolution-news.com/global-protests-peace-palestine/

Antisemetism is also rising sharply in Europe, partly due to immigration from the middle east partly from the rise of far right political movements, increasing immigration to Israel.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/21/w...-jews-emigrating-to-israel-rises-sharply.html
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom