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[Quotient]

Are you from Israel by any chance? Maybe in your world the rest of the world doesn't care, in reality thousands upon thousands are taking to the streets to protest against Israels actions around the world. There were thousands in London (UK) a few days back in a last minute solidarity show, and there will likely be as many if not more this Saturday. Same story in countries around the world. More so in places like Morocco where tens upon tens of thousands protested.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...and-new-york-in-wave-of-protests-9601826.html

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/14/anti-israeli-protesters-attack-paris-synagogue

http://m.smh.com.au/nsw/thousands-in-sydney-join-global-gaza-protests-20140713-zt61t.html

http://revolution-news.com/global-protests-peace-palestine/

I am resident of the US, but my citizenship is Australian, I was born in Iran, but my parents and i left when i was 2 years old. I am NOT Israeli or jewish.

A few thousand people turned up to protest, I'm sure more turned up to watch the German-Argentina final at outside viewing screens.

It is sad, but the world just doesn't care about the Palestinian plight, if they truly did, we would have seen a resolution to this debacle years ago.

 

[RustyNails]

is there video?

I doubt it will be up this early. The show is still being aired atm.

 

[Quotient]

I doubt it will be up this early. The show is still being aired atm.

It will be up on Hulu Plus tomorrow. That is how typical watch the Daily Show.

 

[dripdripsplash]

Also, not all Palestinians were against living in Israel.

Abu Ghosh is a famous Palestinian town who allied themselves with Israel (both before and after the 1948 war).

And look at what that got them, from the same link:

Many of the villagers left Abu Ghosh during the heavy fighting in 1948, but most returned home in the following months. During the early years of the state, military searches were conducted in the village to remove non-residents. In June 1950, 105 men and women believed to be infiltrators were deported to Jordan. In an open letter to the Knesset, the inhabitants of Abu Ghosh claimed that the army had "surrounded our village, and taken our women, children and old folk, and thrown them over the border and into the Negev Desert, and many of them died in consequence, when they were shot [trying to make their way back across] the borders."[17] The letter further stated that they woken up to "shouts blaring over the loudspeaker announcing that the village was surrounded and anyone trying to get out would be shot....The police and military forces then began to enter the houses and conduct meticulous searches, but no contraband was found. In the end, using force and blows, they gathered up our women, and old folk and children, the sick and the blind and pregnant women. These shouted for help but there was no saviour. And we looked on and were powerless to do anything save beg for mercy. Alas, our pleas were of no avail... They then took the prisoners, who were weeping and screaming, to an unknown place, and we still do not know what befell them."[17]

 

[TrafalgarLaw]

Antisemetism is also rising sharply in Europe, partly due to immigration from the middle east partly from the rise of far right political movements, increasing immigration to Israel.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/21/w...-jews-emigrating-to-israel-rises-sharply.html

don't link the two and say legitimate protests (outside of the paris ghetto) are antisemitism.

 

[nib95]

Antisemetism is also rising sharply in Europe, partly due to immigration from the middle east partly from the rise of far right political movements, increasing immigration to Israel.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/21/w...-jews-emigrating-to-israel-rises-sharply.html

Islamaphobia is rising at a faster and greater rate, for similar reasons and more (not forgetting that Palestinians are mostly Muslim). What's your point? That it somehow diminishes the importance of these protests or the cause, which happen to be purely centred around Palestines treatment at the hands of Israel?

Some pictures from some of the protests in the last few days from different countries and cities around the world.

 

[Tmac]

In Gaza?

Not in Gaza. Thats just an excuse to make/keep the palestine state an impossibility.

In a extremely asymmetrical balance of power where one side, and one side alone, have military capabiltie and control all the actions, do you really think that this side wants peace after 40+ years of "conflict"?

Give me a break.

 

[dripdripsplash]

You love to post article and quotes talking about some of the shit Israel has done, acting as though Israel has only ever been the evil, monster and Palestinians are the Angels who never do any wrong - as if the situation is very back'n'white.

There have been some despicable acts done by both sides, does it make it good, of course not. The situation is what it is. We can always turn this thread into "What extremist shit has an Israeli done" and "What extremist shit has a Palestinian done". Folks can take their turn posting some deplorable crap and we can all admire.

Oh I do acknowledge the horrific shit Palestinian terrorists have done throughout history too.

The problem is with bolded for example is that in the case of the Israelis isn't only extremists but common and normal proceedings by the governement and the soldiers of Israel. Not only extremists. This is seen in the case of the ethnic cleansing of '48, massacres in Lebanon, rising settler and IDF cooperation and so on. The New Historians and current reporting all confirm this.

EDIT: And I think Quotient is talking about world wide political support by Arab/Muslim states and leaders, not the people themselves, which can be disproved quite quickly. Or I might be wrong and he does actually think that no one cares about the Palestinian cause because his wife didn't know.

 

[Chichikov]

And look at what that got them, from the same link:

Still better off than Ikrin and Biram.
Two friendly Christian Arab villages were evacuated in 1948 for "security reasons" by the military under the promise that they will be allowed to return once it's safe (Israel had an agreement with the Vatican to not harm the Christian population).
They have still not been allowed to return.

 

[nib95]

I am resident of the US, but my citizenship is Australian, I was born in Iran, but my parents and i left when i was 2 years old. I am NOT Israeli or jewish.

A few thousand people turned up to protest, I'm sure more turned up to watch the German-Argentina final at outside viewing screens.

It is sad, but the world just doesn't care about the Palestinian plight, if they truly did, we would have seen a resolution to this debacle years ago.

No we wouldn't have. The largest protests in history were against the Iraq war, and that happened either way. People care, it's just governments don't always listen. These things take time and effort, beyond simply just protesting. Which is why I said sanctions, continued pressure from governments etc also need to play a continuous role.

Also, I would have been shocked if less people went to watch the football final than protest against Israels occupation and treatment of Palestine. We're talking about one of the world's most renowned and popular sporting events....

 

[Tmac]

You love to post article and quotes talking about some of the shit Israel has done, acting as though Israel has only ever been the evil, monster and Palestinians are the Angels who never do any wrong - as if the situation is very back'n'white.

There have been some despicable acts done by both sides, does it make it good, of course not. The situation is what it is. We can always turn this thread into "What extremist shit has an Israeli done" and "What extremist shit has a Palestinian done". Folks can take their turn posting some deplorable crap and we can all admire.

I asked you before and you did not answer, so i'll ask again: How do see a viable and realistic solution for the current Israeli-Palestinian problem?

Individuals doing shit is one thing. Every country have those guys, people who blow up govmt buildings, shootings in schools killing children.

Israel have a state policy of doing shit. This is not about a individual doing something wrong, but about a nation policy of doing shit for over 4 decades.

If Canada invades the United States, thats a act of war. If a canadian citizen cross the border and kill 3 american citizens you dont bombard the ass of Canada, for f***** sake!

 

[Quotient]

Oh I do acknowledge the horrific shit Palestinian terrorists have done throughout history too.

The problem is with bolded for example is that in the case of the Israelis isn't only extremists but common and normal proceedings by the governement and the soldiers of Israel. Not only extremists. This is seen in the case of the ethnic cleansing of '48, massacres in Lebanon, rising settler and IDF cooperation and so on. The New Historians and current reporting all confirm this.

Fair enought. Though you didn't answer my question, How do see a viable and realistic solution for the current Israeli-Palestinian problem?

EDIT: And I think Quotient is talking about world wide political support by Arab/Muslim states and leaders, not the people themselves, which can be disproved quite quickly. Or I might be wrong and he does actually think that no one cares about the Palestinian cause because his wife didn't know.

I am talking about both Governments and People. Arab and Muslim leaders support for Palestinian is one of political posture and nothing more. Europe and the US support the right of Palestinians to have a state and live free, yet Israel's settlements go unopposed (epecially with US veto). The major world players have all given Israel their support to "defend itself against rocket attacks".

If the world was on the Palestinian side, this conflict would long be other and Palestinians would have a state.

 

[nib95]

If the world was on the Palestinian side, this conflict would long be other and Palestinians would have a state.

Again, you are wrong on this. The vast majority of the world is against Israel on this. The problem is, the world's foremost super power the USA isn't, and that makes all the difference in the world.

 

[dripdripsplash]

Well we refuted you on the point of the people. The Palestinian Cause enjoys much popularity in the Islamic and the Arab world, even in large parts of Euope and the US.

Though I wholeheartedly agree with you on the point of Arab/Muslim state leaders support being complete rubbish.

EDIT: This kinda disproves your point a bit too: http://www.i24news.tv/app.php/en/ne...in-italy-warn-citizens-of-w-bank-s-businesses

EU ambassador warns: Europe is losing its patience with settlements. Other countries will join the sanctions

Italy and Spain recommended on Thursday that their citizens seek legal counsel before initiating business deals with companies working in the West Bank.

The French government issued a similar warning last week to all its citizens telling them not to engage in any financial activities or investments in Israeli settlements in the West Bank, East Jerusalem or the Golan Heights.

The UK and Germany have already issued such warnings in the past.

Sources at the Israeli Foreign Ministry dismissed Friday the new warning coming from Spain and Italy, saying it was legally very "weak." "This is a European trend, which may be unflattering for the settlements, but the warning itself is weak and void of punitive consequences," Israeli news site Ynet reported.

EU ambassador Lars Faaborg-Andersen said the warnings did not come as a surprise. "European countries are losing their patience with the settlements and the expanding construction in the West Bank. If this trend continues, more countries will join the sanctions against businesses operating in the West Bank," the ambassador told reporters during Geneva Initiative seminar in Jerusalem.

In the statement that French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius published last week online as part of broader recommendations for travel to Israel, the government warns of traveling in the aforementioned areas, citing them as "occupied territories."

"The West Bank, including East Jerusalem, Gaza and the Golan Heights are Israeli-occupied territories since 1967. The settlements are illegal according to international law," the statement reads in French.

 

[Tmac]

Fair enought. Though you didn't answer my question, How do see a viable and realistic solution for the current Israeli-Palestinian problem?
.

Thats very simple.

Israel allows a palestine state to exist by withdrawing to 1967 borders and let palestinians mind their own bussiness.

Of course Israel won't let that happen.

 

[Quotient]

Well we refuted you on the point of the people.

I must have missed this.

The Palestinian Cause enjoys much popularity in the Islamic and the Arab world, even in large parts of Euope and the US.

Though I wholeheartedly agree with you on the point of Arab/Muslim state leaders support being complete rubbish.

EDIT: This kinda disproves your point a bit too: http://www.i24news.tv/app.php/en/ne...in-italy-warn-citizens-of-w-bank-s-businesses

All of Israel's economy is in Tel Aviv, this won't have much of an effect on Israel's economy. They aren't even enforced sanctions. Business are just warned that it is "Risky" do business with settlements in the West Bank, and with warning not to travel to those areas. Most governments have those warnings already.

 

[Dead Man]

Of course no country should have a religious basis, but many, many countries do and none of them are going to be dismantled either. the right course of action is to change the countries.

Absolutely.

 

[DECK'ARD]

Fair enought. Though you didn't answer my question, How do see a viable and realistic solution for the current Israeli-Palestinian problem?



I am talking about both Governments and People. Arab and Muslim leaders support for Palestinian is one of political posture and nothing more. Europe and the US support the right of Palestinians to have a state and live free, yet Israel's settlements go unopposed (epecially with US veto). The major world players have all given Israel their support to "defend itself against rocket attacks".

If the world was on the Palestinian side, this conflict would long be other and Palestinians would have a state.

The UK opposes the settlements and has for a long time:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/fco-minister-condemns-israeli-settlement-plans

Commenting on decisions taken by the Government of Israel on 19 March to advance plans for 2,372 new settlement units in the West Bank, Minister for the Middle East Hugh Robertson, said:

I condemn the decisions taken by the Israeli authorities to advance a number of settlement plans in the occupied West Bank. The UK’s position on settlements is longstanding: they are illegal under international law, undermine trust and threaten the viability of the two-state solution.

Nothing must detract from international efforts to secure a lasting, just and final settlement to the conflict.

The Government has also issued warnings against business dealings with them:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-doing-business-with-Israeli-settlements.html

Britain has issued its most explicit warning yet against investing in Jewish settlements in the West Bank in a drastic toughening up of official criticism of Israeli policy in the Palestinian territories

Britain has bluntly warned overseas investors against doing business with Jewish settlements in the West Bank in one of its most explicit criticisms yet of Israeli policy towards the occupied Palestinian territories.

The UK Trade and Investment website warns businessmen that the settlements are illegal under international law and that they run a financial, economic and "reputational" risk in dealing with them.

"The UK has a clear position on Israeli settlements: The West Bank, including East Jerusalem, Gaza and the Golan Heights are territories which have been occupied by Israel since 1967, " the website writes in its Overseas Business Risk Report for Israel.

The warning states that settlements are "not recognised as a legitimate part of Israel's territory" and cautions against a wide gamut of interactions - including financial transactions, investments, purchases, procurements and other activities such as tourism.

 

[Quotient]

Again, you are wrong on this. The vast majority of the world is against Israel on this. The problem is, the world's foremost super power the USA isn't, and that makes all the difference in the world.

The vast majority of the world? Those few thousand people at a half-a-dozen protest sites across the world represent the vast majority of the world.

I would hazard a guess that the vast majority of american's have no idea what is currently transpiring in Gaza.

Do you feel the USA support of Israel will ever go away? Not likely anytime soon.

 

[mavs]

You know, the funny thing about partition is the Palestinians should have seen it coming.

There were plans to split up Palestine as early as 1936 and Israel was way smaller.

http://i7.minus.com/ibkeBFIRIqzP2h.jpg[img]

While it's hindsight now, you can't say the Palestinians never had the chance to get more. Just shows you fighting has the opposite effect.[/QUOTE]

The Jews didn't fight? I think you mean losing has the opposite effect.

 

[Dead Man]

The vast majority of the world? Those few thousand people at a half-a-dozen protest sites across the world represent the vast majority of the world.

I would hazard a guess that the vast majority of american's have no idea what is currently transpiring in Gaza.

Do you feel the USA support of Israel will ever go away? Not likely anytime soon.

Only people that protest have an opinion?

 

[GYODX]

Not in Gaza. Thats just an excuse to make/keep the palestine state an impossibility.

In a extremely asymmetrical balance of power where one side, and one side alone, have military capabiltie and control all the actions, do you really think that this side wants peace after 40+ years of "conflict"?

Give me a break.

You were the one who made that dumb quip that Israel's operation in Gaza somehow amounted to a land-grab.

Don't make ignorant comments and then expect us to read more into your superficial one-liners.

 

[dripdripsplash]

I must have missed this.

In the last week protestors numbering in the tens of thousands have gone out to demonstrate against Israel all around the world. Numbers like that normally shows a trend...

The Palestinian Cause throughout history has also had a special place in the minds of Muslims and arabs alike because of its religious significance and also historical significance as the center of the Arab-Israeli wars.

All of Israel's economy is in Tel Aviv, this won't have much of an effect on Israel's economy.

The point was the Palestinian Cause are even fought by several European countries, not if it would affect the economy. The fact that several countries has warned about investments in settlements do tell much about global support and trend for the cause.

Most recently in Denmark the Copenhagen municipality decided to stop all investments with an Israeli bank which was working in and around settlements.

 

[GYODX]

Only people that protest have an opinion?

What's the point of passively holding onto an opinion if they don't do anything to pressure Israel into making peace?

Unless you're actively protesting and boycotting Israel, the mere fact that you are against Israeli actions doesn't mean squat.

 

[Quotient]

Only people that protest have an opinion?

Of course not, but it is a somewhat good measure of peoples willingness to support an idea. Do you see american's writing to their congress person or senator in mass demanding the change the US policy's on Israel? People care about the Palestinians, just not enough to pressure their governments to do something about it.

 

[Dead Man]

What's the point of passively holding onto an opinion if they don't do anything to pressure Israel into making peace?

Unless you're actively protesting and boycotting Israel, the mere fact that you are against Israeli actions doesn't mean squat.

1. The post was about sentiments held worldwide and protests were given as the correct metric for assessing that, which is utterly stupid.

2. There are many ways to take action without showing up at a protest.

Of course not, but it is a somewhat good measure of peoples willingness to support an idea. Do you see american's writing to their congress person or senator in mass demanding the change the US policy's on Israel? People care about the Palestinians, just not enough to pressure their governments to do something about it.

It's a terrible measure. As for writing, how in the fuck do you claim to have any knowledge of the levels of letter writing, lol. Do I see anyone writing any letters to their politicians about anything? No. I do see plenty of petitions and media awareness campaigns about the issues regarding the Palestinians, guess they don't count though, right?

 

[devilhawk]

Thats very simple.

Israel allows a palestine state to exist by withdrawing to 1967 borders and let palestinians mind their own bussiness.

Of course Israel won't let that happen.

Then that isn't realistic. That is just what you want to happen.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

Of course not, but it is a somewhat good measure of peoples willingness to support an idea. Do you see american's writing to their congress person or senator in mass demanding the change the US policy's on Israel? People care about the Palestinians, just not enough to pressure their governments to do something about it.

Why would they? Their representatives do a good job reflecting their view

This goes back to what I said a few days ago. The problem for the Palestinians is people don't know what they stand for, at least in the US. When sympathy goes down for Israel it doesn't go to the Palestinians, it goes into the "screw them both" camp

 

[Quotient]

1. The post was about sentiments held worldwide and protests were given as the correct metric for assessing that, which is utterly stupid.

2. There are many ways to take action without showing up at a protest.



It's a terrible measure. As for writing, how in the fuck do you claim to have any knowledge of the levels of letter writing, lol. Do I see anyone writing any letters to their politicians about anything? No. I do see plenty of petitions and media awareness campaigns about the issues regarding the Palestinians, guess they don't count though, right?

What would be a better measure? The Media only cares about the Palestinians when their is "rockets flying and people dying". Those genuinely interested in the situation will be aware of what is going, the vast majority just don't.

This is a sincere question: How many of your colleagues at work are discussing the current crisis? How many are writing letters to their congress person or senator to question the US's unwavered support of Israel.

 

[Dead Man]

What would be a better measure? The Media only cares about the Palestinians when their is "rockets flying and people dying". Those genuinely interested in the situation will be aware of what is going, the vast majority just don't.

This is a sincere question: How many of your college at work are discussing the current crisis? How many are writing letters to their congress person or senator to question the US's unwavered support of Israel.

I'm not in America, and most people have no opinion at all where I live. It is a long way down the list of problems that Australia needs to work on, given our incredibly feeble international power.

There are many ways to measure public sentiment, and one has just been posted in this thread. I wasn't taking issue with your conclusion, but your methodology. Presence at protests is a ridiculous stupid metric.

And again, how in the fuck is anyone supposed to know how many people are writing letters?

 

[RustyNails]

The vast majority of the world? Those few thousand people at a half-a-dozen protest sites across the world represent the vast majority of the world.

Not really. Just google global Israel protests and you will get people from Bogota Columbia to Islamabad protesting.

Particularly proud of my hometown

 

[Quotient]

I'm not in America, and most people have no opinion at all where I live. It is a long way down the list of problems that Australia needs to work on, given our incredibly feeble international power.

There are many ways to measure public sentiment, and one has just been posted in this thread. I wasn't taking issue with your conclusion, but your methodology. Presence at protests is a ridiculous stupid metric.

And again, how in the fuck is anyone supposed to know how many people are writing letters?

My comment about letters was stupid - forgive my brain and hands it is 1am here.

There are many ways to measure public sentiment, and one has just been posted in this thread.

I missed this, would you please point me to it.

EDIT: You are referring to the graph posted by APKmetsfan.

So folks in this thread can you use the protests as a sign of the awareness and growth of the movement for the Palestinian people, and i can use the same protests to dismiss that idea?

 

[Pilgor]

Islamaphobia is rising at a faster and greater rate, for similar reasons and more (not forgetting that Palestinians are mostly Muslim). What's your point? That it somehow diminishes the importance of these protests or the cause, which happen to be purely centred around Palestines treatment at the hands of Israel?

Some pictures from some of the protests in the last few days from different countries and cities around the world.

You forgot the one in Paris.

 

[neurosisxeno]

Not sure if it was mentioned here but during a press conference earlier Natenyahu rejected the idea of relinquishing control of the West Bank, as well as shooting down the idea of a two state solution. Not sure how much more it will take to convince people Israel is not interested in a peaceful solution anymore than Hamas is.

 

[m_shortpants]

Not sure if it was mentioned here but during a press conference earlier Natenyahu rejected the idea of relinquishing control of the West Bank, as well as shooting down the idea of a two state solution. Not sure how much more it will take to convince people Israel is not interested in a peaceful solution anymore than Hamas is.

There won't be a one state solution either, as that would disrupt the "Jewish hegemony" of Israel.

I don't think I'll live to see the day when Palestinians or Arabs can live in settlements.

 

[RustyNails]

Not sure if it was mentioned here but during a press conference earlier Natenyahu rejected the idea of relinquishing control of the West Bank, as well as shooting down the idea of a two state solution.

Nothing new here. It's interesting to see people slowly realizing Netanyahu for who he is.

 

[ramuh]

Nothing new here. It's interesting to see people slowly realizing Netanyahu for who he is.

Wasn't he elected pretty much on this premise?

 

[Terra Firma]

Not sure if it was mentioned here but during a press conference earlier Natenyahu rejected the idea of relinquishing control of the West Bank, as well as shooting down the idea of a two state solution. Not sure how much more it will take to convince people Israel is not interested in a peaceful solution anymore than Hamas is.

What do these Israeli apologists have to say to this?

Israel is not interested in peace. If anything, Netanyahu and his ilk continue to prove Hamas right.

 

[benjipwns]

Interesting that support for Israel dropped during the 90's "peace process" and support for Palestinians jumped with the start of the Intifada until 9/11 which CHANGED EVERYTHINGtm.

 

[RustyNails]

Wasn't he elected pretty much on this premise?

I mean, a quick glance at his Wiki page reveals this:

Netanyahu opposed the Oslo accords from their inception. During his term as prime minister in the late 1990s, Netanyahu consistently reneged on commitments made by previous Israeli governments as part of the Oslo peace process, leading American peace envoy Dennis Ross to note that "neither President Clinton nor Secretary [of State Madeleine] Albright believed that Bibi had any real interest in pursuing peace."[106] In a 2001 video, Netanyahu, reportedly unaware he was being recorded, said: "They asked me before the election if I'd honor [the Oslo Accords]," "I said I would, but ... I'm going to interpret the accords in such a way that would allow me to put an end to this galloping forward to the '67 borders. How did we do it? Nobody said what defined military zones were. Defined military zones are security zones; as far as I'm concerned, the entire Jordan Valley is a defined military zone. Go argue."[107]

 

[Quotient]

What do these Israeli apologists have to say to this?

Israel is not interested in peace. If anything, Netanyahu and his ilk continue to prove Hamas right.

If the Palestinians are willing to sit and negotiate then Israel should with good intentions reciprocate.

Though reading it seems that Netanyahu is more concerned about the security implication of withdrawing from the West Bank after what has happened with Gaza and Lebanon

Netanyahu didn’t say he was ruling out all territorial compromise, but he did go to some lengths to highlight the danger of relinquishing what he called “adjacent territory.” He scoffed at those many experts who have argued that holding onto territory for security purposes is less critical in the modern technological era, and argued by contrast that the closer your enemies are, physically, to your borders, the more they’ll try to tunnel under those borders and fire rockets over them.

It had been a mistake for Israel to withdraw from Gaza, he added — reminding us that he’d opposed the 2005 disengagement — because Hamas had since established a terrorist bunker in the Strip. And what Hamas had been doing in Gaza — tunneling into and rocketing at the enemy — would be replicated in the West Bank were Israel so foolish as to give the Islamists the opportunity.

Now whether you believe the intentions or not, Israel does have good reason to fear militants filling in the void after their departure, regardless if Israels initial presence is the cause. It is a nasty never ending circle of pain.

 

[hukasmokincaterpillar]

I don't think it's all that productive to roll back the conflict that much backward..

Genies don't go back in bottles. In that sense it's definitely not productive.
But you don't think the dissonance of the Nakba narrative plays a role in the perception of Palestinian rights? The conflict is only rolled back from the perspective of the occupied, no? It's their side of the story that lacks integration. This, imo, seems inextricably linked to how the politics shape themselves. Obviously internally but also (and perhaps more importantly) externally of Israel.

 

[benjipwns]

What if we went back to the older borders 1967, 1948, 1936, whenever you want, but had them switch. Israelis in what was marked for the Palestinians and vice versa.

 

[TheHeretic]

What do these Israeli apologists have to say to this?

Israel is not interested in peace. If anything, Netanyahu and his ilk continue to prove Hamas right.

Netanyahu leads a political coalition where he couldn't get the Israeli center on board, so he instead needs to appease the far right to hold his coalition together. You can read Jonah Golberg to see what the man thinks off the record, he knows as well as anyone the settlements aren't leading anywhere good but halting them would cost him the right edge of his party. Israeli public opinion supports a two state solution and has for a while now, the politics of getting there are another thing altogether.

It's also worth mentioning it was the Palestinians and their allies who started the war that lead to the increasing size of the occupied territories. Even with a prime minister who wanted a two state solution you still have the problem of no authority to negotiate with, and even with a Palestinian state there would be no Palestinian government to run the country.

 

[Yagharek]

Israel doesnt want peace. (Its citizens no doubt do). But Israel as an entity - its government and military want one thing: land.

The settlements are brazen land grabs against a people that cannot fight back lest they get detained, killed or spark another round of targeted airstrikes. Peaceful protest doesnt work. Nonviolence leaves the same result with people losing their farms or houses regardless, and the Israeli legal system ensures that they have no recourse for keeping what they already have.

Israel's mistake is being disingenous about what they want. They want the land, they want control of the Palestinian population until they are essentially "domesticated" by way of destroying Hamas. When no further Palestinian resistance remains, it will be a trivial exercise to claim the rest of the land.

Of course Palestinians have made mistakes too. They negotiated. They fostered violent opposition with suicide bombers and crude rockets which hit civilian targets like buses and markets and this basically destroyed any sympathy within the mainstream western media for their cause.

At the end of the day what will happen will be this: Israeli settlements will continue to grow, rapidly, filling in all the gaps on the map. Palestine will be left with a token land mass, but it will be surrounded by walls and checkpoints and essentially blockaded by Israel. They will control the potential of Palestine for growth and prosperity, essentially limiting it to zero. The state will crumble and then the final settlers can move in. "Peace" will be achieved.

 

[hukasmokincaterpillar]

Now whether you believe the intentions or not...

We have good reason not to.

It had been a mistake for Israel to withdraw from Gaza

That is a lie. It was not a mistake. It had specific policy ends, explicated by Ariel Sharon's senior adviser. To wit:

"The significance of the disengagement plan is the freezing of the peace process," Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's senior adviser Dov Weisglass has told Haaretz.

"And when you freeze that process, you prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state, and you prevent a discussion on the refugees, the borders and Jerusalem. Effectively, this whole package called the Palestinian state, with all that it entails, has been removed indefinitely from our agenda. And all this with authority and permission. All with a presidential blessing and the ratification of both houses of Congress."

"The disengagement is actually formaldehyde," he said. "It supplies the amount of formaldehyde that is necessary so there will not be a political process with the Palestinians."

Asked why the disengagement plan had been hatched, Weisglass replied: "Because in the fall of 2003 we understood that everything was stuck. And although by the way the Americans read the situation, the blame fell on the Palestinians, not on us, Arik [Sharon] grasped that this state of affairs could not last, that they wouldn't leave us alone, wouldn't get off our case. Time was not on our side. There was international erosion, internal erosion. Domestically, in the meantime, everything was collapsing. The economy was stagnant, and the Geneva Initiative had gained broad support. And then we were hit with the letters of officers and letters of pilots and letters of commandos [refusing to serve in the territories]. These were not weird kids with green ponytails and a ring in their nose with a strong odor of grass. These were people like Spector's group [Yiftah Spector, a renowned Air Force pilot who signed the pilot's letter]. Really our finest young people."

Weisglass does not deny that the main achievement of the Gaza plan is the freezing of the peace process in a "legitimate manner."

"That is exactly what happened," he said. "You know, the term `peace process' is a bundle of concepts and commitments. The peace process is the establishment of a Palestinian state with all the security risks that entails. The peace process is the evacuation of settlements, it's the return of refugees, it's the partition of Jerusalem. And all that has now been frozen.... what I effectively agreed to with the Americans was that part of the settlements would not be dealt with at all, and the rest will not be dealt with until the Palestinians turn into Finns. That is the significance of what we did."

The nice thing about some Israeli politicians is you don't have to read between the lines. The occupation is so fat on international sanction they don't feel the need to lie about it.

 

[JordanN]

Not sure if it was mentioned here but during a press conference earlier Natenyahu rejected the idea of relinquishing control of the West Bank, as well as shooting down the idea of a two state solution. Not sure how much more it will take to convince people Israel is not interested in a peaceful solution anymore than Hamas is.

The country is in a middle of war. I'll doubt he say anything that would turn support against him.

"Oh yeah, I'm going to go two state right now, even though these rockets are blowing up all around us"

And yeah, it's Netanyahu. This is like expecting Bush or Republicans to do the opposite of what they made their name to be.

 

[benjipwns]

I always wonder why the least insane and most sensible protest poster or person is never representative of an entire protest or movement:
http://mikereport.wordpress.com/2014/07/13/shocking-anti-semitic-hatefest-in-downtown-seattle/

Taleah Yvette DeCastro on July 13, 2014 at 12:52 pm said:
Such Ignorance….. but that is our world nowadays…. Perception becomes truth….people don’t research and find out the truth for themselves! Americans are being brainwashed since this POS so called “President” and his vermin administration. He is destroying American’s core values and the Liberal Media is causing more harm to our country than anything else. but…here in Los Angeles today 7/3 there is a great counter protest…THIS IS HAPPENING TODAY IN LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA
SUNDAY 7/13 @ 4PM Corner of Wilshire Blvd. and Veteran in front of the Federal Building. PLEASE, JOIN US! Peaceful rally demonstration in support for Israel and the Israeli Defence Forces. Please share on your FB and with all of your friends…. Please come today for Unity, Support and Prayers for Israel!!
Never again, means NEVER AGAIN!

 

[RustyNails]

Update: Israel accepts Egyptian cease fire, Hamas calling the deal suspicious, and says they did not receive the proposal

(Reuters) - Israel approved an Egyptian-proposed deal that would halt the week-old Gaza shelling war on Tuesday but the Palestinian territory's dominant Hamas Islamists responded suspiciously, saying they had not been consulted by Cairo.

Hamas's armed wing vowed its attacks would "increase in ferocity and intensity" but Palestinian rocket salvoes waned ahead of the mooted start of mutual de-escalation at 0600 GMT.

At Israeli military headquarters in Tel Aviv, the security cabinet convened by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said it voted to approve the truce deal, minutes before it was to come into effect.

Amos Gilad, a senior Israeli defence official and envoy to Cairo, cast the deal positively, saying Hamas had been weakened by the air and sea bombardment of impoverished Gaza. "Look at the balance, and you see that Hamas tried every possible means of striking at Israel while bringing great and terrible damage on its people, from their perspective," Gilad told Israel's Army Radio. "The Egyptian proposal includes a halt to all kind of (military) activity," he said. "What this proposal, if it is accepted, means is that, willy-nilly, Hamas did not manage to make good on its intentions."

Sami Abu Zuhri, a Hamas spokesman in Gaza, said earlier on Tuesday that the Islamist group had not received an official ceasefire proposal, and he repeated its position that demands it has made must be met before it lays down its weapons.

Hamas's armed wing, the al-Qassam Brigades, rejected the reported text of the truce deal, saying: "Our battle with the enemy continues and will increase in ferocity and intensity."

 

[Chichikov]

Genies don't go back in bottles. In that sense it's definitely not productive.
But you don't think the dissonance of the Nakba narrative plays a role in the perception of Palestinian rights? The conflict is only rolled back from the perspective of the occupied, no? It's their side of the story that lacks integration. This, imo, seems inextricably linked to how the politics shape themselves. Obviously internally but also (and perhaps more importantly) externally of Israel.

I agree completely, the greatest failure of the Israeli left is that it doesn't understand that 67 borders is already a huge huge concession to the Palestinians.
I meant to roll it back to World War I.
I was also talking in the context of this thread, I think understanding British colonization of the middle east is really important as well.