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[goomba]

Hamas political wing rejected the ceasefire also



Israel has a right to defend it's citizens from rocket fire and will do so.

Your support for Hamas continues the suffering of innocents on both sides.



Nice strawman.

I am fucking sick of hearing this "Israel have the right to protect themselves" line. Do Palestinians not have the right to defend themselves? They have more of a right considering the occupation, theft of land , thousands killed, bombing and blockade against them. Israel refuse to even negotiate with the Palestinian governement and contine to build settlements. Do people expect Palestinians to take this lying down? Do Palestinians deserve to be killed for daring to resist ?

 

[Cromat]

That's beside the point. Groups like Hamas and ISIS don't exist out of the blue. They don't gain territory and power because a few guys want to be in charge. They need something to rally support around. The treatment of Gaza and the West Bank gives them that excuse. If Israel wanted to weaken the position of Hamas through non-violent means they could make gestures in improving this situation. Because bulldozing century old homes and killing kids aren't helping. Hamas does plenty of evil shit, but they have that excuse to cling to, that it's all in service of fighting off their oppressors.

Why is this type of analysis always applied only on the Palestinian side and never on the Israeli side? Couldn't you also say that the reason the Israeli public is wary about pulling out and dismantling more settlements is the horrible outcome of the Lebanon and Gaza pullouts and the Palestinian rejection of two peace offers in 2000 and 2008?

 

[CaptainMellow]

Hamas political wing rejected the ceasefire also



Israel has a right to defend it's citizens from rocket fire and will do so.

Your support for Hamas continues the suffering of innocents on both sides.



Nice strawman.

Israel defenfing themselves from what? Stealing land, Building illegal settlements, murders hundreds of civilians.....

 

[Cheesecakebobby]

I am fucking sick of hearing this "Israel have the right to protect themselves" line. Do Palestinians not have the right to defend themselves? They have more of a right considering the occupation, theft of land , thousands killed, bombing and blockade against them. Israel refuse to even negotiate with the Palestinian governement and contine to build settlements. Do people expect Palestinians to take this lying down? Do Palestinians deserve to be killed for daring to resist ?

Hamas could exercise the right to protect itself (I'm not saying Palestinians because I have the foresight to not conflate the people with their terrorist overlords) by accepting this ceasefire. I can't imagine a more obvious demonstration of Hamas's complete disregard for the protection and safety of it's own people. How many more will they sacrifice in order to maybe get Israel to release a few of their terrorist brothers?

 

[TheHeretic]

Israel defenfing themselves from what? Stealing land, Building illegal settlements, murders hundreds of civilians.....

From the wars declared on them well before the settlements even existed. Palestine leaders have consistently used terrorism to try and force concessions since the late 1960's, which has hardened Israel a lot over the decades. The left in Israel was discredited after the failed Oslo Accords, putting the right into power which has also accelerated settlements. There are Palestinian victims, but the Palestinian collective has been using violence as a political weapon for a very long time now.

 

[CaptainMellow]

Hamas could exercise the right to protect itself (I'm not saying Palestinians because I have the foresight to not conflate the people with their terrorist overlords) by accepting this ceasefire. I can't imagine a more obvious demonstration of Hamas's complete disregard for the protection and safety of it's own people. How many more will they sacrifice in order to maybe get Israel to release a few of their terrorist brothers?

Ok so your saying Hamas should invite Israel, hey ' Take as much land as you want' as you know we cant really defend Palestinian lives. The Palestinians have nothing, no real way of defending themselves, but they will not allow Israel to destroy their homes and steal all their land.

 

[Neko Mimi Mode]

I am fucking sick of hearing this "Israel have the right to protect themselves" line. Do Palestinians not have the right to defend themselves? They have more of a right considering the occupation, theft of land , thousands killed, bombing and blockade against them. Israel refuse to even negotiate with the Palestinian governement and contine to build settlements. Do people expect Palestinians to take this lying down? Do Palestinians deserve to be killed for daring to resist ?

Whether you like it or not is irrelevant, Israel has a duty to protect it's civilians from terror. Terror that was evidently occurring long before settlements or even Israel existed.

Your armchair patriotism and calls for jihad are cute but ultimately further the suffering of the palestinian people.

 

[Cheesecakebobby]

Ok so your saying Hamas should invite Israel, hey ' Take as much land as you want' as you know we cant really defend Palestinian lives. The Palestinians have nothing, no real way of defending themselves, but they will not allow Israel to destroy their homes and steal all their land.

Israel is not taking any land in Gaza. I happen to disagree with settlements in the West Bank but they do not excuse Hamas's terror in Gaza one iota.

 

[goomba]

Whether you like it or not is irrelevant, Israel has a duty to protect it's civilians from terror. Terror that was evidently occurring long before settlements or even Israel existed.

Your armchair patriotism and calls for jihad are cute but ultimately further the suffering of the palestinian people.

LOL patrirotism and Jihad ? .... I'm from New Zealand.

Terror prior to Israel existing? are you referring to the Haganah, the Irgun Zvai Leumi, and the Stern Gang?

 

[CaptainMellow]

From the wars declared on them well before the settlements even existed. Palestine leaders have consistently used terrorism to try and force concessions since the late 1960's, which has hardened Israel a lot over the decades. The left in Israel was discredited after the failed Oslo Accords, putting the right into power which has also accelerated settlements. There are Palestinian victims, but the Palestinian collective has been using violence as a political weapon for a very long time now.

What exists of the state of Palestine, ask yourselves who the aggressor is now. Who are the victims of this aggression. The current state of Israel are war criminals, and believe me they are only getting away with this is because right now they sit in the power seat, but this power won't last very long. There is no justification for what they are doing. I support humanity, and the value of human life. I don't trust Israel, they will do anything to destroyed Palestinian lives

 

[CaptainMellow]

Israel is not taking any land in Gaza. I happen to disagree with settlements in the West Bank but they do not excuse Hamas's terror in Gaza one iota.

Either way they won't let Palestinians live there.

 

[Cheesecakebobby]

Either way they won't let Palestinians live there.

What?

 

[xKebob]

What exists of the state of Palestine, ask yourselves who the aggressor is now. Who are the victims of this aggression. The current state of Israel are war criminals, and believe me they are only getting away with this is because right now they sit in the power seat, but this power won't last very long. There is no justification for what they are doing. I support humanity, and the value of human life. I don't trust Israel, they will do anything to destroyed Palestinian lives

Why would you say that?
You can see in this video that IDF cancels attacks where civilians are spotted near targets.
They warn civilians by phone calls and flyers to let them know before attacks

 

[badb0y]

So, what is Israel's end game here? Seems like they just rolling over the region and hoping most Palestinians flea so they can totally take over the country.

 

[yarden24]

Why would you say that?
You can see in this video that IDF cancels any attack where civilians are spotted near targets.

Please, the fact that an attack was cancelled because of civilians does not mean all attacks are, saying that when at least 70% of the casualties are civilians is ludicrous

 

[Cheesecakebobby]

So, what is Israel's end game here? Seems like they just rolling over the region and hoping most Palestinians flea so they can totally take over the country.

Please explain how accepting an Egyptian-brokered ceasefire which has so far been rejected by Hamas is trying to "totally take over the country".

You could have a point if you were talking about settlements expanding, but Israel has already made offers at the negotiating table that would give pretty much the exact same amount of land that he 1967 borders would have, with about 10% land swaps on each side.

 

[phalestine]

Why would you say that?
You can see in this video that IDF cancels any attack where civilians are spotted near targets.
They warn civilians by phone calls and flyers to let them know before attacks

You know its still illegal to target homes EVEN with a warning right?

 

[Cheesecakebobby]

You know its still illegal to target homes EVEN with a warning right?

Not when those homes are also crucial to the military operations of the enemy. You use a house as a command center or munitions factory/ dump and it becomes a valid target. In fact, THAT is the war crime, using civilians as a human shield. The only war crimes so far in this operation have been committed by Hamas.

 

[quantumnerd]

I'd like to remind everyone that if you bring war crimes onto the table, nobody is innocent. So unless you guys want to start a massive comparison list war, it's pretty pointless to mention.

Similar for "who did what first" arguments.

=======================

Is there any reasonably comprehensive history of the conflict that both sides can agree on here? I want to know more about the conflict but everyone is operating off of a different set of facts. I'm talking about basic stuff like the orders of land grabs, wars, settlements, and refugee flow, not opinions on their justifiability.

 

[phalestine]

Not when those homes are also crucial to the military operations of the enemy. You use a house as a command center or munitions factory/ dump and it becomes a valid target. In fact, THAT is the war crime, using civilians as a human shield. The only war crimes so far in this operation have been committed by Hamas.

His/Her quote which I was responding to:

They warn civilians by phone calls and flyers to let them know before attacks

He said civilians, you aren't going to deny that civilian homes have been damaged are you?

 

[Cheesecakebobby]

I'd like to remind everyone that if you bring war crimes onto the table, nobody is innocent. So unless you guys want to start a massive comparison list war, it's pretty pointless to mention.

That's fair enough if you want to talk history, but if someone starts claiming Israel is currently committing war crimes, I'd like to see the proof, especially considering Hamas are openly committing them right now and yet the poster happily ignores those.

 

[Cheesecakebobby]

His/Her quote which I was responding to:



He said civilians, you aren't going to deny that civilian homes have been damaged are you?

They haven't been targeted, I'm sure some have received damage when next to a key military target. Such collateral damage is expected in war and is not illegal by any means. Placing civilians at risk by placing your own military installations in such a position often does constitute a war crime however.

 

[nephilimdj]

They haven't been targeted, I'm sure some have received damage when next to a key military target. Such collateral damage is expected in war and is not illegal by any means. Placing civilians at risk by placing your own military installations in such a position often does constitute a war crime however.

How are they meant to put army bases out in the middle of nowhere when the land they are fighting for is so small?

 

[Cheesecakebobby]

How are they meant to put army bases out in the middle of nowhere when the land they are fighting for is so small?

Gaza city and some other towns are very dense, however there are plenty of more open areas outside the city. If they insist on being war criminals by firing rockets blindly at civilians, they could avoid committing a double war crime by not doing so from the most heavily populated civilian areas. Believe it or not, they have options other than storing rockets in mosques and launching them from schools. They know that Israel are less likely to attack those areas because Israel actually values human life rather than celebrating death. As Sami Abu Zuhri, Hamas spokesperson said two days ago, "We aren't leading our people today to destruction. We are leading them to death."

 

[kmag]

That's fair enough if you want to talk history, but if someone starts claiming Israel is currently committing war crimes, I'd like to see the proof, especially considering Hamas are openly committing them right now and yet the poster happily ignores those.

Collective punishment is a war crime.

Article 33. No persons may be punished for an offense he or she has not personally committed. Collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited.
Pillage is prohibited.
Reprisals against persons and their property are prohibited.

Fourth Geneva Convention.

Both the Israeli blockade and it's policy of Home demolition of those suspected of carrying out attacks are forms of collective punishment, ergo war crimes. In fact they're almost a textbook case of it, you can try to generate arguments for it but in it's very essence it's a war crime.

The UN, the International Red Cross and Amnesty International have called them out on it.

Of course Hamas is also committing war crimes, but the idea that Israel does not is simply wrong.

 

[dripdripsplash]

http://972mag.com/what-does-israeli-acceptance-of-ceasefire-really-mean/93642/

What does Israeli 'acceptance' of ceasefire really mean?
The Israeli cabinet voted to accept an Egyptian-brokered ceasefire Tuesday morning. Hamas, who was not consulted, is in direct discussions with Cairo but has criticized the initial proposal. What does all this mean?

1) Israel is willing to return to the status quo, a status quo that serves Israeli interests. Sure there is occasional rocket fire from Gaza but Israel has the Iron Dome and, in the sparsely populated south of the country, the rockets usually fall in open spaces. The occasional rocket from Gaza actually helps Israeli hawks strengthen their case for continuing the “occupation” of the West Bank (an “occupation” that, in the wake of Netanyahu’s recent remarks, should be understood as a de facto annexation). The Israeli right points to the rockets from Gaza and says, “Look, we withdrew from Gaza in 2005 and all we got is rocket fire!”

Returning to the status quo also means that Israel strikes Gaza from time to time and kills Palestinian civilians there and in the West Bank without garnering much scrutiny from the international media and, by extension, the international community. Returning to the status quo would also mean an end to the immediate damage to Israel’s image caused by the horrific photos and footage coming out of Gaza, and global protests against what Israel calls “Operation Protective Edge.”

2) Accepting the ceasefire, as Israeli officials admit, gives Israel the green light to “defend” itself with even more force than it’s using now. Just a few hours ago the Israeli cabinet voted to accept the proposed ceasefire. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu remarked at a press conference, “If Hamas continues to fire at Israel, Israel will have the international legitimacy to take action.”

But how can Hamas possibly accept a ceasefire it wasn’t consulted on and especially one that would mean a return to the status quo, including the blockade that the United Nations calls “collective punishment“? Hamas’ terms for a ceasefire are reasonable: that Israel lifts the blockade of the Gaza Strip; that Israel ends aggression in the Occupied Territories; and that Israel releases Palestinian prisoners, many of who were released in the Shalit deal and re-arrested in the West Bank during the so-called “Operation Brothers’ Keeper.”

Instead, the ceasefire proposes to hold indirect negotiations between Israel and the Palestinian parties to arrive at a “final truce,” as the WSJ puts it.

But as Khaled al-Batch, an Islamic Jihad leader, was quoted in Al Jazeera:

It is not acceptable to start observing a ceasefire for short term then negotiate the terms. We have experienced this in the past and it has failed. What is needed now is to agree on the demands of the Palestinian people, chiefly ending the siege and opening the border corsing [sic], then a zero hour can be agreed upon. Otherwise, history will repeat itself, period.

Or as the armed wing of Hamas, Al Qassam Brigades, remarked about the proposed ceasefire: “For us, it is not worth the ink that wrote it.”

Israel’s “acceptance” of the ceasefire – a ceasefire that Hamas wasn’t consulted on and, accordingly, does not meet Hamas’ terms – really isn’t an acceptance at all. As many observers were quick to say, it’s a public relations move. It could also be understood as an attempt to pave the way for a ground invasion.

 

[zeroOman]

Gaza city and some other towns are very dense, however there are plenty of more open areas outside the city. If they insist on being war criminals by firing rockets blindly at civilians, they could avoid committing a double war crime by not doing so from the most heavily populated civilian areas. Believe it or not, they have options other than storing rockets in mosques and launching them from schools. They know that Israel are less likely to attack those areas because Israel actually values human life rather than celebrating death. As Sami Abu Zuhri, Hamas spokesperson said two days ago, "We aren't leading our people today to destruction. We are leading them to death."

The number of civilian who have died in the past year saying something different

 

[phalestine]

They haven't been targeted, I'm sure some have received damage when next to a key military target. Such collateral damage is expected in war and is not illegal by any means. Placing civilians at risk by placing your own military installations in such a position often does constitute a war crime however.

To say they haven't been targeted is premature, history and recent OCHA reports lead me to believe they have been targeted.

That's fair enough if you want to talk history, but if someone starts claiming Israel is currently committing war crimes, I'd like to see the proof, especially considering Hamas are openly committing them right now and yet the poster happily ignores those.

I'm not sure who you are referring to in this post, but I am waiting for an independent investigation before claiming any war crimes.

 

[kmag]

Gaza city and some other towns are very dense, however there are plenty of more open areas outside the city. If they insist on being war criminals by firing rockets blindly at civilians, they could avoid committing a double war crime by not doing so from the most heavily populated civilian areas. Believe it or not, they have options other than storing rockets in mosques and launching them from schools. They know that Israel are less likely to attack those areas because Israel actually values human life rather than celebrating death. As Sami Abu Zuhri, Hamas spokesperson said two days ago, "We aren't leading our people today to destruction. We are leading them to death."

Their use of white phosphorous shelling in populated area suggests otherwise. The UN Goldstone report stated that the IDF were "systematically reckless in determining its use in build-up areas".

 

[zeroOman]

Collective punishment is a war crime.



Both the Israeli blockade and it's policy of Home demolition of those suspected of carrying out attacks are forms of collective punishment, ergo war crimes.

shhh it's secrete... they don't want to know that this is war crime

 

[Yagharek]

Collective punishment is a war crime.



Both the Israeli blockade and it's policy of Home demolition of those suspected of carrying out attacks are forms of collective punishment, ergo war crimes. In fact they're almost a textbook case of it, you can try to generate arguments for it but in it's very essence it's a war crime.

The UN, the International Red Cross and Amnesty International have called them out on it.

Of course Hamas is also committing war crimes, but the idea that Israel does not is simply wrong.

I eagerly await the response to this post.

 

[Cheesecakebobby]

To say they haven't been targeted is premature, history and recent OCHA reports lead me to believe they have been targeted.



I'm not sure who you are referring to in this post, but I am waiting for an independent investigation before claiming any war crimes.

Sure,it is totally within the realm of possibility that Israel have targeted more than a thousand military targets AND a handful of civilian houses just because. Wouldn't make much sense but it isn't impossible. Also I imagine you might class a house which is the home to a high-up terrorist and his family but not expressly used to hold weapons as a civilian target, I imagine we would differ on our interpretation in that case.

In the case of Hamas war crimes there is no need for an investigation. They are clear to the world to see and are openly admitted. Hamas is committing war crimes against Israelis and against its own people.

 

[Cheesecakebobby]

Collective punishment is a war crime.



Both the Israeli blockade and it's policy of Home demolition of those suspected of carrying out attacks are forms of collective punishment, ergo war crimes. In fact they're almost a textbook case of it, you can try to generate arguments for it but in it's very essence it's a war crime.

The UN, the International Red Cross and Amnesty International have called them out on it.

Of course Hamas is also committing war crimes, but the idea that Israel does not is simply wrong.

Collective punishment is open to huge interpretation, unlike the targeting of civilians and using human shields, for examples. I will answer that by continuing to allow vital supplies into the Gaza strip, by treating Gazans in Israeli hospitals, by using all manner of tactics to warn and avoid civilians Israel's "punishment" of the Palestinians is nothing compared to how Hamas themselves actually punish their own people and does not constitute a war crime. The blockade is not considered illegal and neither are Israel's strikes against military targets which are deliberately placed among civilians.

 

[deathkiller]

Also I imagine you might class a house which is the home to a high-up terrorist and his family but not expressly used to hold weapons as a civilian target, I imagine we would differ on our interpretation in that case.

They are as much a civilian target as the homes of members of the IDF/Israeli government.

 

[michaelius]

I am fucking sick of hearing this "Israel have the right to protect themselves" line. Do Palestinians not have the right to defend themselves? They have more of a right considering the occupation, theft of land , thousands killed, bombing and blockade against them. Israel refuse to even negotiate with the Palestinian governement and contine to build settlements. Do people expect Palestinians to take this lying down? Do Palestinians deserve to be killed for daring to resist ?

Shooting rockets at random targets hoping they hit something with something being most likely civilian target isn't valid form of defence.

 

[Yagharek]

Collective punishment is open to huge interpretation, unlike the targeting of civilians and using human shields, for examples. I will answer that by continuing to allow vital supplies into the Gaza strip, by treating Gazans in Israeli hospitals, by using all manner of tactics to warn and avoid civilians Israel's "punishment" of the Palestinians is nothing compared to how Hamas themselves actually punish their own people and does not constitute a war crime. The blockade is not considered illegal and neither are Israel's strikes against military targets which are deliberately placed among civilians.

Not considered illegal? By whom? Israel?

So much goalpost shifting in this post. Cite some sources.

 

[phalestine]

Sure,it is totally within the realm of possibility that Israel have targeted more than a thousand military targets AND a handful of civilian houses just because. Wouldn't make much sense but it isn't impossible. Also I imagine you might class a house which is the home to a high-up terrorist and his family but not expressly used to hold weapons as a civilian target, I imagine we would differ on our interpretation in that case.

In the case of Hamas war crimes there is no need for an investigation. They are clear to the world to see and are openly admitted. Hamas is committing war crimes against Israelis and against its own people.

Of course we differ, by the logic every Israeli citizen themselves served or has/had family in the military.

 

[Interceptor]

You know its still illegal to target homes EVEN with a warning right?

"Hey lets put a rocket launcher into a kindergarden and let it shoot unguided missiles into civilian territory. I don't even care what it hits. Even better if they destroy the launcher in retaliation. We can say its illegal and on top of that we have a lot of pictures of dead children. "

And Israel are called the bad guys.

 

[phalestine]

"Hey lets put a rocket launcher into a kindergarden and let it shoot unguided missiles into civilian territory. I don't even care what it hits. Even better if they destroy the launcher in retaliation. We can say its illegal and on top of that we have a lot of pictures of dead children. "

And Israel are called the bad guys.

Proof that this has happened presently?

 

[Cheesecakebobby]

Of course we differ, by the logic every Israeli citizen themselves served or has/had family in the military.

But not used to hold meetings to plan the next wave of terrorist attacks. Forcing them to plan their crimes out in the open and not under their child's bedroom doesn't seem so bad (so long as said child has plentiful time to evacuate)

 

[phalestine]

But not used to hold meetings to plan the next wave of terrorist attacks. Forcing them to plan their crimes out in the open and not under their child's bedroom doesn't seem so bad (so long as said child has plentiful time to evacuate)

so you have to host meetings at the home to be fair game? and do you have proof that this has happened to each of the homes targeted? your logic is flawed.

 

[Kenshin001]

http://972mag.com/what-does-israeli-acceptance-of-ceasefire-really-mean/93642/

It would mean an end to Israeli shells dropping on Palestinian kids. If that is the main concern Hamas should agree to a ceasefire immediately. I think it is quite clear Hamas just uses civilians as pawns though.

 

[Cheesecakebobby]

so you have to host meetings at the home to be fair game? and do you have proof that this has happened to each of the homes targeted? your logic is flawed.

No of course not, it is also fair game if there are terrorists inside - the IDF are pretty good at tracking the whereabouts of individuals, as demonstrated by their attacks which take out individual cars and motorbikes being used by terrorists. Honestly I am not particularly in favour of bombing terrorists' houses but neither do I think they can be considered as equal to the homes of non-combatants who have nothing to do with terror attacks.

 

[Interceptor]

Proof that this has happened presently?

Presently? Are you kidding me? This is the main Hamas tactic since they existed. Gather billions of International aid with the "news", buying some food with it to be called samaritans and buy weapons for the rest. They won't ever give up this policy because this is why they exist in the first place. I felt really bad for the people of the gaza strip when they elected them as their leaders. It was a self chosen big no to any kind of peace in the future.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

They haven't been targeted, I'm sure some have received damage when next to a key military target. Such collateral damage is expected in war and is not illegal by any means. Placing civilians at risk by placing your own military installations in such a position often does constitute a war crime however.

As others have said, it is a war crime. But the bolded makes me scratch my head. "expected in war"? Is this a war? Don't you need a declaration of war for it to be a war? Or is it a "war on terror" type situation?

 

[deathkiller]

But not used to hold meetings to plan the next wave of terrorist attacks. Forcing them to plan their crimes out in the open and not under their child's bedroom doesn't seem so bad (so long as said child has plentiful time to evacuate)

They give exactly 0 time to evacuate since the objective is killing Hamas members.

 

[Joeki11a]

So people really think this is all a reply for the 3 young fellas, no way. Unless those souls were related to big names in israel.

It seems this always happens as a smoke screen to something else, we are focusing on this but bigger plans are ahead.

 

[Cheesecakebobby]

As others have said, it is a war crime. But the bolded makes me scratch my head. "expected in war"? Is this a war? Don't you need a declaration of war for it to be a war? Or is it a "war on terror" type situation?

Hamas's attacks on Israeli civilians constitute an act of war. It is of course legal to fight back and it doesn't suddenly become illegal to do so when your enemy purposefully hides among civilians (which itself IS a war crime).

I know people will try to paint me as defending the indefensible but I readily admit the IDF aren't perfect and have - at least at the level of the individual - committed war crimes in the past, such as grabbing Palestinians as their own human shields. Those were horrific and rightfully condemned. I will gladly join in the condemnations if such crimes are proven again, but so far only one side is committing war crimes, right out there in the open and so many posters here would rather focus on the Israeli response to those crimes.

 

[Yagharek]

Hamas's attacks on Israeli civilians constitute an act of war.

And Israel's blockade of Gaza constitutes an act of war.

 

[Cheesecakebobby]

And Israel's blockade of Gaza constitutes an act of war.

It isn't even considered illegal by most and the 2011 Palmer report for the UN said it wasn't illegal either. It could be eased but not while Hamas exploit every chance they get to smuggle more weapons and attempt kidnappings.

Edit: And now Israel has resumed its bombardment as Hamas showed no signs of giving a truce a chance. Can't say they didn't have a chance to save their asses or protect their people.