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[Quotient]

Has Hamas given a reason for turning down the cease fire?

 

[nib95]

So Israel is not going in? It's just going be the same thing 2 years from now.
They either take out Hamas or they don't.

You can't take out Hamas. There is no such thing. It's just an ideology, and one that will forever have combatants and support so long as Palestine is under brutal occupation and it's lands continue to be stolen, with it, it's people displaced in the hundreds and/or thousands each and every year.

People don't tend to sit idly by and do nothing when their homes, their relatives homes, friends homes etc are demolished before them, to make way for illegal Israeli settlements, and your people arrested (without proper trial or legal aid), tortured, brutalised or even killed for resisting. Such is the reality of their world. And why Hamas was even started, and why it will never lose Palestinian support until these things are first rectified.

 

[zeroOman]

Here you go, a good information video on Gaza.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EDW88CBo-8

this is the foundation of Israel propaganda... the same one which try to justifies the occupation of Palestine as there weren't country named Palestine or ppl....

 

[Interceptor]

Has Hamas given a reason for turning down the cease fire?

Israel still existing, not enough casualties amnong the own population, still having rockets.
Chose your own.

 

[captainnapalm]

I am kinda sick of all this injured kid propaganda. I feel bad for every child injured or even killed in this conflict but I can't believe how blatant and obvious they are used as a tool for propaganda. Its even more shocking how many people just suck it up. Its as is gaza is only inhabited by children and people who shoot rockets. Even after years of debunked and purposely misused fake pictures of dead children you cant have a discussion about gaza without being buried under pictures of children. (Sometimes from gaza, sometimes not, sometimes from the actual conflict, sometimes not, sometimes real, sometimes fake.)

The number of child deaths in Gaza is a matter of record, confirmed by the UN. It's not propaganda if the deaths are real.

 

[Chichikov]

I am kinda sick of all this injured kid propaganda. I feel bad for every child injured or even killed in this conflict but I can't believe how blatant and obvious they are used as a tool for propaganda. Its even more shocking how many people just suck it up. Its as is gaza is only inhabited by children and people who shoot rockets. Even after years of debunked and purposely misused fake pictures of dead children you cant have a discussion about gaza without being buried under pictures of children. (Sometimes from gaza, sometimes not, sometimes from the actual conflict, sometimes not, sometimes real, sometimes fake.)

29 children had died since the operation started, 21 women, 14 people over 70.
These are confirmed and well resourced figures.
And talking about those deaths in order to stop attacks that cause such terrible toll in human life is not a misuse.

 

[LNBL]

I see the propaganda works just fine. Ah, if only everything was so simple in life.

How are you calling it propaganda when it's being reported all over the world in the news?The UN has released the official number of children deaths in the past week. What the hell is wrong with you.

 

[Interceptor]

29 children had died since the operation started, 21 women, 14 people over 70.
These are confirmed and well resourced figures.
And talking about those deaths in order to stop attacks that cause such terrible toll in human life is not a misuse.

I agree. Talking about those childrn to stop the attacks would be good. The only good thing that could come from their deaths. But i blame the people who put them to danger. Who planned to get them killed by airstrikes. Those pictures are calculated with every rocket that flies to Israel. They count on it, because those picture rally even more hate. Thats what this is all about. Not getting a state, not peace. This is not was Hamas is about. Never was.
Creating more hate. Thats what i blame them for. And the children are just used in this and this makes me sick. And every single picture of this and every copy & paste tweet with links to dead children generates even more of it. Because it shows them that it works just fine. People don´t even care anymore for sources until you call them out for the pictures. Just like the "recently" bombed indonesian childs from 2012 pictured as recent victims last week.

 

[RustyNails]

Has Hamas given a reason for turning down the cease fire?

Hamas wasn't even given the proposal by Egypt! How can they agree to cease fire terms if they don't know what they are? Its baffling as to what the fuck just happened in the past 12 hours.

 

[Pilgor]

Hamas wasn't even given the proposal by Egypt! How can they agree to cease fire terms if they don't know what they are? Its baffling as to what the fuck just happened in the past 12 hours.

Hamas rejected Egyptian proposal to hold fire

As part of Egypt’s efforts to halt the fighting between Hamas and Israel, Cairo proposed to the Palestinian organization’s leadership and to the Israeli government that they mutually stop the fire for 40 hours, after which a broader ceasefire agreement would be discussed — but Hamas rejected the offer, The Times of Israel learned from Israeli and Hamas sources.

The offer was presented to the deputy head of the Hamas political bureau, Moussa Abu Marzouk, by Egyptian intelligence officers last week. Abu Marzouk rejected it after a brief consultation with the terror group’s military wing, the Izz al-Din al-Qassam brigades, the sources said.

 

[yarden24]

Hamas wasn't even given the proposal by Egypt! How can they agree to cease fire terms if they don't know what they are? Its baffling as to what the fuck just happened in the past 12 hours.

Hamas's military wing did not get the proposal, it's political wing did, and said it was considering it, then it's military wing decided it will not accept the agreement

 

[Cromat]

Hamas's military wing did not get the proposal, it's political wing did, and said it was considering it, then it's military wing decided it will not accept the agreement

It never could. The military wing has had effective control over Gaza since June 2007. Haniyeh and co. have very little actual power since they control neither the armed forces nor the funds of the organization.

 

[nib95]

Here you go, a good information video on Gaza.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EDW88CBo-8

This is pure propaganda based bullshit. We have peace agreements from Palestine and Hamas agreeing to Israels right to exist and the 67 borders. Hamas has even sent a letter to Bush detailing this (ignored of course). These things are fact.

Now let's look at the other side. Netanyahu openly indirectly admits he is not interested in peace, that he intentionally misled with the OSLO accords. We also know that Israel assassinates key Hamas members responsible for peace propositions, dismantle or destabilise the moment such moves gain weight, outright reject the notion of Palestine being allowed to be a UN member state, continue to reject peace proposals and the idea of a sovereign Palestine, and continue to not only brutally occupy Palestine, but also continue to steal and settle upon more and more Palestinian land, essentially wiping more and more of Palestine off the map and out of existence.

The truth is, based on all evidence (based on actions not just hear say), the side that truly wants the other to cease to exist, is Israel with regards to Palestine, and not the other way around. There is literally no other logical conclusion based on actual facts. The Israeli defence in this video is just one of misguided, assumption based, misinformed, fearmongering propaganda. All evidence points to Israel being responsible for the very things it claims of Hamas or the Palestinian side in this video.

Hamas and Palestine agree to a two state solution. Israel does not. Hamas has agreed to a peace proposition based on the 67 borders and a sovereign Palestine. Israel will not. The UN and 138 member states (representing the vast majority of the world's populace) agree to the 48 borders and that Israels occupation and aggressive expansion is illegal under international law. Israel often does not.

The truth does not correlate with the propaganda in this video. Far from it.

 

[zeroOman]

Hamas rejected Egyptian proposal to hold fire

timesofisrael

 

[speculawyer]

Hamas is fucking ridiculous. When your main weapon becomes letting women & children get killed and complaining about it then you are really just completely useless.

 

[RustyNails]

Hamas rejected Egyptian proposal to hold fire

Hamas says it was not consulted on Egypt’s de-escalation plan, will not agree to proposals without conditions
July 15, 2014 7:02AM ET
by Renee Lewis

A proposed Gaza cease-fire lay in tatters Tuesday just hours after it was due to come into effect, with the resumption of Israeli airstrikes on the besieged enclave and the continuation of Hamas rocket launches.

Brokered by Egypt, the proposed de-escalation of violence was set for 9 a.m. local time (2 a.m. EDT). Israel’s government had announced shortly before that it would honor the cessation of missile launches. But Hamas said it had not been consulted and would reject any agreement without certain conditions, including Israel ending its seven-year-long siege on Gaza, being met. Although it did not offer an official position on the Egyptian plan, rockets from Hamas' armed wing continued after the proposed cease-fire was due to commence.

As a result just hours into the cease-fire Israel announced it would resume with an offensive that has killed close to 200 Palestinians, many of them civilians.

“Hamas has fired 47 rockets since we suspended our strikes in Gaza at 9 a.m. As a result, we have resumed our operation against Hamas,” The Israeli Defense Force (IDF) tweeted out shortly after 3 p.m. local time.

The resumption was not unexpected. An Israeli official earlier told Al Jazeera, “If Hamas rejects these proposals, Israel will continue the operation and intensify it.”

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/7/15/gaza-israel-ceasefire.html

 

[Terra]

This will not be pretty.

 

[m_shortpants]

Hamas is fucking ridiculous. When your main weapon becomes letting women & children get killed and complaining about it then you are really just completely useless.

You may be right. Unfortunately, it seems like the rest of the world doesn't give a shit about them if they don't.

 

[Cromat]

This is pure propaganda based bullshit. We have peace agreements from Palestine and Hamas agreeing to Israels right to exist and the 67 borders. Hamas has even sent a letter to Bush detailing this (ignored of course). These things are fact.

Now let's look at the other side. Netanyahu openly indirectly admits he is not interested in peace, that he intentionally misled with the OSLO accords. We also know that Israel assassinates key Hamas members responsible for peace propositions, dismantle or destabilise the moment such moves gain weight, outright reject the notion of Palestine being allowed to be a UN member state, continue to reject peace proposals and the idea of a sovereign Palestine, and continue to not only brutally occupy Palestine, but also continue to steal and settle upon more and more Palestinian land, essentially wiping more and more of Palestine off the map and out of existence.

The truth is, based on all evidence (based on actions not just here say), the side that truly wants the other to cease to exist, is Israel on Palestine, and not the other way around. There is literally no other logical conclusion based on actual facts. The Israeli defence in this video is just one of misguided, assumption based, misinformed, fearmongering propaganda. All evidence points to Israel being responsible for the very things it claims of Hamas or the Palestinian side in this video.

Hamas and Palestine agree to a two state solution. Israel does not. Hamas has agreed to a peace proposition based on the 67 borders and a sovereign Palestine. Israel will not. The UN and 138 member states (representing the vast majority of the world's populace) agree to the 48 borders and that Israels occupation and illegal expansion is illegal under international law. Israel often does not.

The truth does not correlate with the propaganda in this video. Far from it.

Hamas does not agree to a two state solution. Some members of Hamas' political wing did say that they will accept such a deal if it is accepted by the Palestinian people. They also agreed to a long term truce if Israel withdraws to the 1967 borders and gives the right of return to all refugees. However they never recognized Israel nor are they willing to negotiate a peace deal. Even this ceasefire which Hamas rejected calls on the parties to negotiate a resolution to the situation in Gaza, and Israel agreed to this. To describe Hamas as a party acting for peace is simply laughable.

Regarding Israel, it offered Palestinians a deal twice in 2000 and 2008 and got rejected both times. It also withdrew from Gaza in 2005 and gave Sinai to the Egyptians in 1980. Israel's attitude towards the two state solution changes according to the government in power and nothing has done more damage to the peace camp more than the Gaza experience.

 

[Pilgor]

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/7/15/gaza-israel-ceasefire.html

Hamas rejects Egypt ceasefire plan for Gaza

The armed wing of the Palestinian group Hamas has rejected an Egyptian-proposed ceasefire in the Gaza conflict, according to its official website.

Israel resumes airstrikes on Gaza after Hamas rejects cease-fire proposal

Less than half an hour later, a senior Hamas official told The Associated Press that the group had rejected the proposal

Cease-fire effort collapses as rockets, airstrikes continue

When the plan was announced, there was a split reaction from Hamas. Its military wing rejected any possibility of a cease-fire, while its political wing had said it was considering it.

Netanyahu orders IDF strikes on Gaza after rocket fire

Several Hamas officials rejected the Egyptian proposal

Israel Resumes Gaza Bombing Campaign

Israel had initially accepted a ceasefire proposal, but Hamas had rejected it.

Israel accepts, Hamas rejects cease-fire plan

Abu Zuhri, a senior Hamas official, said the proposal is not acceptable to Hamas. And the military wing of Hamas, Izzedine al-Qassam, said in a statement on the Hamas website that the proposal "does not deserve the ink it was written with."

Hamas rejects ceasefire with Israel over Gaza conflict

Prospects for ceasefire in Israel and Gaza diminish as Hamas’s leadership bluntly declares terms of Egyptian proposal a 'surrender'

 

[zeroOman]

Hamas rejects Egypt ceasefire plan for Gaza



Israel resumes airstrikes on Gaza after Hamas rejects cease-fire proposal



Cease-fire effort collapses as rockets, airstrikes continue



Netanyahu orders IDF strikes on Gaza after rocket fire



Israel Resumes Gaza Bombing Campaign



Israel accepts, Hamas rejects cease-fire plan



Hamas rejects ceasefire with Israel over Gaza conflict

But it was done without consoling Hamas in what the condition they want to accept

 

[Neko Mimi Mode]

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/7/15/gaza-israel-ceasefire.html

"This proposal is not acceptable," said a senior Hamas official

Despite previously acknowledging some “diplomatic movement,” Hamas rejected Egypt’s cease-fire plan for the latest Israeli-Palestinian conflict on Tuesday — just moments after Israel accepted the proposal.

A statement released by Hamas’ armed wing, al-Qassam Brigades, said the group “totally and completely” rejected the terms of an Egyptian brokered cease fire, adding that without further concessions from Israel, “it was not worth the ink it was written with.” Representatives from Islamic Jihad, which also has been involved in the fighting, also rejected an unconditional ceasefire.

Roughly four hours after Israel’s security cabinet announced that it had accepted the cease fire, Israel said a fresh volley of 35 rockets were fired from Gaza into southern Israel, causing minor damage.

Cairo’s proposal aimed to stop a weeklong conflict that has seen at least 185 Gazans killed. The truce called for a 48-hour cessation of fire, followed by immediate talks for a longer-term truce and an eventual opening of Gaza’s border crossing, the New York Times reports.

The Associated Press reports that a senior Hamas official, Sami Abu Zuhri, said Egypt’s plan for a cease-fire in Gaza was “not acceptable.”

Al-Qassam Brigades said on the website that excerpts from the plan published in the media indicated it was “an initiative of kneeling and submission,” reports Reuters.

“Our battle with the enemy continues and will increase in ferocity and intensity,” al-Qassam Brigades added.

http://time.com/2984308/reports-hamas-armed-wing-rejects-egypts-ceasefire-plan/

 

[Quotient]

http://time.com/2984308/reports-hamas-armed-wing-rejects-egypts-ceasefire-plan/

Cease fire, followed by talks with the potential for the borders to be opened up. Why on earth would they reject. This is a much better outcome than the Israeli bombardment.

 

[Inspectah Deck]

Sorry about Stephen Harper and the Conservatives. With any luck (damn our horrible voting system) they will go bye-bye around late 2015.

Harper embarrasses Canada so much, he didn't even mention innocent Palestinians caught in the crossfire in his latest statement condemning Hamas, just Israel....

Exactly Bruh.

 

[zeroOman]

Cease fire, followed by talks with the potential for the borders to be opened up. Why on earth would they reject. This is a much better outcome than the Israeli bombardment.

"TALK" Do u think really think something will come out with this offer? what happen to the 2012 offer? or the one before? it's just paper for Israel to make sure they can used for future assault like always.

 

[RustyNails]

I had to google Sami Abu Zuhri and cease fire. Looks like Hmas rejected it because it wasn't a part of the negotiation:

“The ceasefire proposal was discussed by everyone except us – Kerry, Netanyahu, Egypt, but not Hamas," Abu Zuhri said. "This ceasefire proposal is like an ambush.”

The Hamas spokesman cited the proposal’s failure to require the lifting of Israel’s blockade of Palestinian territory or the opening of all border crossings with Egypt and Israel.

Hamas also demanded the release of Palestinians jailed in recent Israeli military sweeps, an end to all aggression against Palestinian territory and a halt to Israeli attempts to disrupt the work of the Palestinians’ national unity government.

http://www.latimes.com/world/middle...tinians-cease-fire-20140714-story.html#page=1

 

[Quotient]

"TALK" Do u think really think something will come out with this offer? what happen to the 2012 offer? or the one before? it's just paper for Israel to make sure they can used for future assault like always.

So your telling me rocket fire against the most powerful military in that region which is resulting in the death of your own people is better than any potential chance of talk?

Hamas are never, never going to win a military confrontation with Israel, the sooner they recognize the better chance we have on heading towards any sort of peace.

 

[sindbadthesailor]

Sorry about Stephen Harper and the Conservatives. With any luck (damn our horrible voting system) they will go bye-bye around late 2015.

Harper embarrasses Canada so much, he didn't even mention innocent Palestinians caught in the crossfire in his latest statement condemning Hamas, just Israel....

Harper is a hack and you're right in that he's a complete embarrassment to Canada.

 

[sindbadthesailor]

So your telling me rocket fire against the most powerful military in that region which is resulting in the death of your own people is better than any potential chance of talk?

Hamas are never, never going to win a military confrontation with Israel, the sooner they recognize the better chance we have on heading towards any sort of peace.

It's not about winning militarily; it's about creating a little bit of leverage where there is none.

Contrary to the bully mentality where blaming the victim is acceptable, Israel proposing unilateral terms isn't right and expecting them to be accepted outright is nonsensical.

 

[RustyNails]

Harper is a hack and you're right in that he's a complete embarrassment to Canada.

Now you Canadians know how we Americans felt with George W Bush.

Dont worry, once your country gets really tired of his shit, you too can elect Canadian Obama.

 

[TheHeretic]

We've been through that, according to international laws, the duty of the attacker to avoid civilian casualties is not dependant on whether or not the enemy is using human shields (which is also a war crime).
That duty is not without its limits mind you, but Israel policy of bombing the homes of Hamas leaders is a war crime through and through.

If you fire rockets into a country you will get a military response. Hiding in civilian areas isn't a safeguard. The international community can say what it likes, no country would accept the kind of security risks Israel would have to take on by not responding militarily.

 

[Jag]

This is pure propaganda based bullshit. We have peace agreements from Palestine and Hamas agreeing to Israels right to exist and the 67 borders. Hamas has even sent a letter to Bush detailing this (ignored of course). These things are fact.

The Hamas Charter is also a fact.

Some excerpts:

Preamble

Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps. The Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and more squadrons from this vast Arab and Islamic world, until the enemy is vanquished and Allah's victory is realised.

Article Seven:

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Muslim).

Article Seventeen:

The Muslim woman has a role no less important than that of the Muslim man in the battle of liberation. She is the maker of men. Her role in guiding and educating the new generations is great. The enemies have realised the importance of her role. They consider that if they are able to direct and bring her up they way they wish, far from Islam, they would have won the battle. That is why you find them giving these attempts constant attention through information campaigns, films, and the school curriculum, using for that purpose their lackeys who are infiltrated through Zionist organizations under various names and shapes, such as Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, espionage groups and others, which are all nothing more than cells of subversion and saboteurs. These organizations have ample resources that enable them to play their role in societies for the purpose of achieving the Zionist targets and to deepen the concepts that would serve the enemy. These organizations operate in the absence of Islam and its estrangement among its people. The Islamic peoples should perform their role in confronting the conspiracies of these saboteurs. The day Islam is in control of guiding the affairs of life, these organizations, hostile to humanity and Islam, will be obliterated.

Article Twenty-Two:

For a long time, the enemies have been planning, skillfully and with precision, for the achievement of what they have attained. They took into consideration the causes affecting the current of events. They strived to amass great and substantive material wealth which they devoted to the realisation of their dream. With their money, they took control of the world media, news agencies, the press, publishing houses, broadcasting stations, and others. With their money they stirred revolutions in various parts of the world with the purpose of achieving their interests and reaping the fruit therein. They were behind the French Revolution, the Communist revolution and most of the revolutions we heard and hear about, here and there. With their money they formed secret societies, such as Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, the Lions and others in different parts of the world for the purpose of sabotaging societies and achieving Zionist interests. With their money they were able to control imperialistic countries and instigate them to colonize many countries in order to enable them to exploit their resources and spread corruption there.

You may speak as much as you want about regional and world wars. They were behind World War I, when they were able to destroy the Islamic Caliphate, making financial gains and controlling resources. They obtained the Balfour Declaration, formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains by trading in armaments, and paved the way for the establishment of their state. It was they who instigated the replacement of the League of Nations with the United Nations and the Security Council to enable them to rule the world through them. There is no war going on anywhere, without having their finger in it.

"So often as they shall kindle a fire for war, Allah shall extinguish it; and they shall set their minds to act corruptly in the earth, but Allah loveth not the corrupt doers." (The Table - verse 64).

The imperialistic forces in the Capitalist West and Communist East, support the enemy with all their might, in money and in men. These forces take turns in doing that. The day Islam appears, the forces of infidelity would unite to challenge it, for the infidels are of one nation.

"O true believers, contract not an intimate friendship with any besides yourselves: they will not fail to corrupt you. They wish for that which may cause you to perish: their hatred hath already appeared from out of their mouths; but what their breasts conceal is yet more inveterate. We have already shown you signs of their ill will towards you, if ye understand." (The Family of Imran - verse 118).

It is not in vain that the verse is ended with Allah's words "if ye understand."

Article Twenty-Eight:

The Zionist invasion is a vicious invasion. It does not refrain from resorting to all methods, using all evil and contemptible ways to achieve its end. It relies greatly in its infiltration and espionage operations on the secret organizations it gave rise to, such as the Freemasons, The Rotary and Lions clubs, and other sabotage groups. All these organizations, whether secret or open, work in the interest of Zionism and according to its instructions. They aim at undermining societies, destroying values, corrupting consciences, deteriorating character and annihilating Islam. It is behind the drug trade and alcoholism in all its kinds so as to facilitate its control and expansion.

Arab countries surrounding Israel are asked to open their borders before the fighters from among the Arab and Islamic nations so that they could consolidate their efforts with those of their Muslim brethren in Palestine.

As for the other Arab and Islamic countries, they are asked to facilitate the movement of the fighters from and to it, and this is the least thing they could do.

We should not forget to remind every Muslim that when the Jews conquered the Holy City in 1967, they stood on the threshold of the Aqsa Mosque and proclaimed that "Mohammed is dead, and his descendants are all women."

Israel, Judaism and Jews challenge Islam and the Muslim people. "May the cowards never sleep."

Article Thirty-Two:

World Zionism, together with imperialistic powers, try through a studied plan and an intelligent strategy to remove one Arab state after another from the circle of struggle against Zionism, in order to have it finally face the Palestinian people only. Egypt was, to a great extent, removed from the circle of the struggle, through the treacherous Camp David Agreement. They are trying to draw other Arab countries into similar agreements and to bring them outside the circle of struggle.

The Islamic Resistance Movement calls on Arab and Islamic nations to take up the line of serious and persevering action to prevent the success of this horrendous plan, to warn the people of the danger eminating from leaving the circle of struggle against Zionism. Today it is Palestine, tomorrow it will be one country or another.

Yeah, good luck making peace with that.

 

[nib95]

The Hamas Charter is also a fact.

Some excerpts:

Yeah, good luck making peace with that.

This is an old charter. Hamas has already moved away from and commented on this.

In 2010 Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal stated that the Charter is "a piece of history and no longer relevant, but cannot be changed for internal reasons." Hamas have moved away from their charter since they decided to go for political office.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Covenant

Hamas does not agree to a two state solution. Some members of Hamas' political wing did say that they will accept such a deal if it is accepted by the Palestinian people. They also agreed to a long term truce if Israel withdraws to the 1967 borders and gives the right of return to all refugees. However they never recognized Israel nor are they willing to negotiate a peace deal. Even this ceasefire which Hamas rejected calls on the parties to negotiate a resolution to the situation in Gaza, and Israel agreed to this. To describe Hamas as a party acting for peace is simply laughable.

Regarding Israel, it offered Palestinians a deal twice in 2000 and 2008 and got rejected both times. It also withdrew from Gaza in 2005 and gave Sinai to the Egyptians in 1980. Israel's attitude towards the two state solution changes according to the government in power and nothing has done more damage to the peace camp more than the Gaza experience.

Israel's move out of Gaza was theatre at best. They still had military occupation over it, controlled all supplies, air space, ports, trade, access to and fro etc. Add to that, they just increased their presence in the West Bank instead. On top of that, Hamas accepting the two state solution and 1967 borders IS Hamas's acceptance of the state of Israel and it's right to exist.

Wednesday's reconciliation agreement between Fatah and Hamas recognizes the existence of Israel and is based on the two-state model, says Jibril Rajoub.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.587047

And in Hamas's letter to George Bush in 2006.

Via U.S. prof., Hamas leader proposed state on 1967 borders and extended truce in order to abate conflict.
http://www.haaretz.com/print-editio...niyeh-offered-compromise-with-israel-1.257213

 

[Interceptor]

The Hamas Charter is also a fact.

Some excerpts:


Yeah, good luck making peace with that.

Sounds like valuable party to elect as my leadership. /s

 

[Quotient]

This is an old charter. Hamas has already moved away from and commented on this.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Covenant

What are these "internal reasons"?

 

[Gustav]

What are these "internal reasons"?

Internally they still abide by it, externally they don't, as it reflects poorly on them.

 

[Quotient]

Internally they still abide by it, externally they don't, as it reflects poorly on them.

Ah. Must also help when asking Iran for weapons and ammunitions.

 

[nib95]

What are these "internal reasons"?

My guess is fan service to appease the right wing or hardliners. If Hamas succeed in a two state solution proposal, the more progressive (recent) leaders come off as victorious and prove that a softer approach works. If the peace talks continue to resort in Israel simply taking the piss, by continually stealing more and more land and settling upon it, even whilst ceasefires continue on, then the hardline gain credibility. It's a vicious cycle. But it's pretty apparent Israel wants to keep it that way. A peace process and two state solution means no more land stealing by Israel, and based on current actions, I can't see Israel being too happy with that notion.

 

[MisterFalcon]

Internally they still abide by it, externally they don't, as it reflects poorly on them.

As public opinion will never accept the war on Israel was lost decades ago.

 

[mavs]

And in Hamas's letter to George Bush in 2006.

Via U.S. prof., Hamas leader proposed state on 1967 borders and extended truce in order to abate conflict.
http://www.haaretz.com/print-editio...niyeh-offered-compromise-with-israel-1.257213

That's not a real offer. Offering an 'extended truce' only confirms the worst fears about Hamas' desire for the ultimate destruction of Israel. They should have just offered permanent peace, even if they didn't want that it would have been rejected anyway.

 

[Pilgor]

What are these "internal reasons"?

They don't want to change it.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-editio...-if-israel-doesn-t-release-prisoners-1.172536

"The Hamas charter is a matter for interpretation. It expresses a political and social position based indirectly on the Koran. There is no doubt about the Koran itself, but the charter is a political vision. No one is thinking now about changing the charter, but in principle it is not impossible."

http://altahrir.wordpress.com/2014/06/11/the-hamas-charter-reform-or-junk-it/

"If I were to tell you that the charter could be changed, it would immediately be seen as a concession and the collapse of Hamas’ principles. No one is thinking now about changing the charter, but in principle it is not impossible.”

 

[Neko Mimi Mode]

This is an old charter. Hamas has already moved away from and commented on this.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Covenant

Is this the same Hamas leader Khaled Mashal who subsequently stated Hamas wouldn't relinquish an inch of the land from the river to the sea? Or the one who also subsequently stated "We Will Adhere to Jihad, to the Resistance, and to the Gun"?

Or how about some good old Haniyeh calling for martyrdom in Tel Aviv this year?

Sounds promising.

 

[RustyNails]

That's not a real offer. Offering an 'extended truce' only confirms the worst fears about Hamas' desire for the ultimate destruction of Israel. They should have just offered permanent peace, even if they didn't want that it would have been rejected anyway.

Those things can be ironed out later. At least it would have gotten both sides to the table which is a BFD all things considered. Look up Arab Peace Initiative. Recognition of Israel by all parties involved in exchange for 67 borders. You cant say "Hamas doesnt want peace" when they are ready to accept a peace solution and recognize Israel, and simply accuse them of lying when they say they do.

 

[Interceptor]

Is this the same Hamas lead Khaled Mashal who subsequently stated Hamas wouldn't relinquish an inch of the land from the river to the sea? Or the one who also subsequently stated "We Will Adhere to Jihad, to the Resistance, and to the Gun"?
J
Or how about some good old Haniyeh calling for martyrdom in Tel Aviv this year?

Sounds promising.

I am pretty sure those are translation errors. If you could only understand the original you would see they only want peace.

 

[PlayALLtheGames]

Here you go, a good information video on Gaza.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EDW88CBo-8

From the video description:

"The Middle East conflict is framed as one of the most complex problems in the world. But, in reality, it's very simple. Israelis want to live in peace and are willing to accept a neighboring Palestinian state. And most Palestinians do not want Israel to exist. As Dennis Prager explains, this is really all you need to know"

Oh, well, I don't know about you guys but I'm convinced.

 

[Jag]

Hamas is communicating through Facebook.

“To make a cease-fire before meeting our conditions is rejected,” Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri said.

He added on a Facebook post: “The resistance will continue until we achieve all the goals of our people, and any cease-fire from one side will not be respected after the massacres committed by the Israelis against our people. The humanitarian situation is miserable,” adding that resistance is a legitimate right for occupied peoples.

Iran and North Korea liked his post.

 

[RiZ III]

New video from Jerusalem of an American Jew speaking against the occupation which results in him getting his face pummeled and then arrested by Israeli police. Pretty typical reaction to a peaceful demonstration.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsChk79mUsM

 

[maharg]

That's fair enough if you want to talk history, but if someone starts claiming Israel is currently committing war crimes, I'd like to see the proof, especially considering Hamas are openly committing them right now and yet the poster happily ignores those.

Part of the problem here is that this is not really a war -- Palestine is an occupied territory, with Israel as the occupying power. Palestine is not a state actor. All of its infrastructure is controlled by Israel, and as such Israel has some pretty strong obligations to the Palestinian people.

Israel has basically made hash of the Fourth Geneva Convention in both Gaza and the West Bank, imo. Population transfer, collective punishment, failure to enable the care of children and ensure adequate medical care. Israel pulled out of Gaza in a way that basically ensured that violence would run rampant and people in Gaza would suffer, because they pretty much prevent the possibility of any real enforcement of order under the same restrictions that ostensibly prevent Hamas from acting against Israel.

A blockade is not a war crime, though it is an act of war and definitely an act of aggression. But the blockade is part of how Israel is punishing the people of Gaza for the actions of Hamas, and that may very well be a war crime.

 

[RiZ III]

Cease fire, followed by talks with the potential for the borders to be opened up. Why on earth would they reject. This is a much better outcome than the Israeli bombardment.

One of the main reasons they started firing rockets during the leadup to this escalation was because of the re-arrest of all of the prisoners who were released during the Shalit deal (along with the bombing of Hamas leadership due to the accusation that they were behind the killing of the 3 Israeli kids). I'm assuming this is one of the things Hamas really wanted to achieve here, to have a deal where those prisoners are returned. That said, I wish they would just accept this.

 

[mavs]

Those things can be ironed out later. At least it would have gotten both sides to the table which is a BFD all things considered. Look up Arab Peace Initiative. Recognition of Israel by all parties involved in exchange for 67 borders. You cant say "Hamas doesnt want peace" when they are ready to accept a peace solution and recognize Israel, and simply accuse them of lying when they say they do.

That actually wasn't the offer in that case though. The offer was less than permanent peace, in exchange for a permanent Palestinian state on the 67 borders. Not an unworkable opening offer to begin negotiations, but also not a signal that they are seriously interested in negotiation and of course there was no general understanding that either side was interested in negotiating at the time (Israel's actions in 2006 were unilateral.)