QuicheFontaine
Member
That's talking about the naval blockade. And I knew you would do that!
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Breaking: Israel launches Operation Protective Edge against Hamas in Gaza
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That's talking about the naval blockade. And I knew you would do that!
Cheesecakebobby
Banned
Then the naval blockade was considered legal and the land blockade has divided opinions. Maybe I can't say "it is legal" but equally nobody else can say with authority "it is a war crime/ act of war" either.
phalestine
aka iby.h
Id like to clarify your post, the Palmer report said the naval blockade wasn't illegal, but never took into account the land blockade. Many UN officials have stated that the land blockade is indeed illegal.
edit - beaten.
Not really. The house demolition is a classic textbook case of collective punishment.
captainnapalm
Member
Good lord, what an extraordinary line of bullshit and propaganda some people will trot out to defend the utterly indefensible. I find this quiet sickening really. Defending the slaughter of children.
Cheesecakebobby
Banned
Yes I was thinking of the naval blockade, but now that I have checked, many UN officials have also said the land blockade is not illegal. The US and UK consider it legal but have urged Israel to relax it. Some of the restrictions are rather arbitrary and baffling but tons of aid and supplies get through and I can't fathom how anyone could consider it a war crime. A war crime also committed by Egypt, I suppose.
Find the line where I 'defend the slaughter of children'. Hamas alone are leading their children to the slaughter. They could have ended the suffering today by agreeing to a ceasefire - one brokered by a Muslim country, not some terms of surrender - but they chose to continue their terror rather than protect their own people.
Interceptor
Banned
Actually people believe this is all due to firing military type rockets into a sovereign country.
Do a little mind experiment. Take any other country in the world and imagine all its neighbours have gouped together to kill any of its inhabitants. The country got attacked twice but wins everytime and even takes land of the attackers in the process. Now there is this little strip left and the inhibatitants refuse to accept history and keep calling them fugitives for three generations now. Despite having the international aid and time to really build a own state they chose to bomb your civilians and fire rockets to your cities almost every day.
How do you think any Arab country would deal with this under similar circumstances? I dont think the gaza strip would have survived a year.
Please explain how Israel has an obligation to maintain open borders with an enemy territory which doesn't recognize it. Why is this complaint not leveled at Egypt?
Well that didn't last too long. Cease fire is over.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/15/world/meast/mideast-crisis/
http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/15/world/meast/mideast-crisis/
captainnapalm
Member
The post of yours I quoted absolved Israel of any guilt, culpability or responsibility for its actions in Gaza - so yes, defending the slaughter of children.
And please don't expect me to buy this nonsense of Palestinians purposefully putting their own children in the firing line to have their little bodies blown to bits as some kind of tactic. That's the thing with Israeli propaganda. You can only swallow it if you're willing to believe Palestinians are sub-human monsters with no concern even for the lives of their own children. No one in their right mind believes that and the horrific pictures of people weeping over the bodies of exploded children tell the true story.
Irrelevant. A blockade is by definition an act of war.
Hamas is at war with Israel for all intents and purposes, and as such a blockade is acceptable by international law. As far as I'm aware anyway
Why is the irrelevant? Isn't the Egypt border also closed? Are you saying that Egypt is also at war?
I'm not too sure about that. Lets say it was Russia or China.
And yet the complete opposite, all the western powers have supported Israel in its skirmish with Hamas and condemned Hamas for firing rockets.
It's irrelevant to the point that was being discussed.
Cheesecakebobby
Banned
The post you quoted was demonstrating that Israel's attacks are not war crimes while Hamas's are, and that the deaths of children stem not from an Israeli war crime but a Hamas war crime. You can't prove otherwise so you make up ludicrous claims.
And you are conflating Hamas with all Palestinians. I truly believe only someone who sees this battle as "Palestine versus Israel" could make such an observation. At their most popular, Hamas had 44% of the popular vote. That was before they started several conflicts and began clamping down on various aspects of life it considered un-Islamic. As I stated earlier, I am sure there are thousands of intelligent Palestinians who don't want Hamas rockets in their mosques and being launched from their schools.
Syria and Lebanon are in a state of war with Israel. The borders are closed. Is there any reason why the governments of these countries should be forced to maintain open borders with Israel? You can't actively fight and not even recognize a country while maintaining that it has to have an open border with you. All of the blockade accusations should be addressed to Egypt.
The Palmer report finding on the legality of the blockade was written in the main by two people with no background in international laws of war or of the sea. It's findings in regards to legality (which were the opinions of Palmer and were criticised by the Turkish member of the report panel, lawyers with actual expertise like Richard Falk, by a U.N. Human Rights Council independent panel, by the Goldstone report, by the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs and by the European parliament.
European Parliament http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?type=MOTION&reference=B7-2010-0389&language=EN
Goldstone Report, http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/specialsession/9/FactFindingMission.htm
So on the one hand you have the ex prime minister of New Zealand (who at least was a laywer albeit not one specialising in international laws) and the ex-president of Colombia (who had no legal background at all) saying in there opinion it was legal, and pretty much every other UN agency, human rights lawyer and international lawyer saying it wasn't. And as the Palmer report itself stated "the Panel cannot make definitive findings either of fact or law. But it can give its view."
And lets not forget, the principal proponent of setting up the Palmer report in the first place was the US.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/09/13/us-un-gaza-rights-idUSTRE78C59R20110913
Cheesecakebobby
Banned
I don't think you can dismiss one report and then quote something like the Goldstone report in the same breath.
The blockade is an unfortunate necessity and clearly nobody can agree on its objective legality. It is not total and Israel provides huge amounts of aid to go in and allows the injured to come out for treatment. See if that is the case in any other conflict. They have also eased it numerous time but the result has been renewed attacks from Hamas, further proving its necessity. To try and spin that out as a war crime is incredibly tenuous (I can't remember if you were one of the people claiming so or not).
Here you go, a good information video on life in Gaza
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=9ZRgzChgaGI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=9ZRgzChgaGI
TheHeretic
Banned
It has nothing to do with Israeli propaganda. They launch attacks from civilian areas knowing the response will result in civilian casualties. I don't blame them for that, a weaker force always tries to gain and advantage by blurring the lines between civilian and soldier. What I do blame Hamas for is its crackpot antisemitic ideology and its sponsorship of terrorism, not to mention its assassinating of Palestinian leaders.
So the Palmer report is aokay because it backs up your position, but the Goldstone report is more problematic because it doesn't. I've updated the post with additional cites. It's also worth noting the ICC has a pending case in regards to the interception of the flotilla.
Cheesecakebobby
Banned
No, I'm saying if you are going to criticise a report, better not rely on another which was not just criticised but later denounced by the very person in charge of making it. The point is that there is no consensus so proudly stating the blockade is a war crime is dodgy. There is no such debate or grey area when it comes to Hamas' actions yet here we are focusing on Israel's actions which result from an attempt to reduce those war crimes.
Ignorant? Whos ignorant here? Do you really think Israel wants to have peace with the palestines?
I said that the gaza operation is about land grab and it is! Everything about that conflict is about land ownership. Every provacation, every escalation os violence have one objective in mind, that is securing more land for the Israeli State.
Year by year Israel put more settlers, build more israeli villages, more israeli citzens exclusive roads criss-crossing palestines cities isolating then, displace palestines from their homes with a series of old excuses...
Palestinians terrorists never was and will never be a theat to the Israeli state. If fact they are the perfect excuse to Israel continue with their shamefull actions against the palestines.
I don't see how this video has to do with live in Gaza and the unhuman conditions they live in.
We focus on Israel because they are the occupying aggressor with a massive military advantage over the people they occupy. You really cannot call that "self defense" with a straight face.
Exactly the only side that benefits from this continuous state of "war" is Israel.
Cheesecakebobby
Banned
So which side tried to end the conflict today and which one continued attacking civilians?
~Devil Trigger~
In favor of setting Muslim women on fire
Related, kill if old
Apparently NBA star Dwight Howard has some things to say about the conflict between Israel and Gaza. Well, kind of.
Over the weekend, the Houston Rockets center tweeted "#FreePalestine" then quickly deleted it. He followed that up with an apology comment that read, Previous tweet was a mistake. I have never commented on international politics and never will.
Was removing the tweet the right move? Howard was heavily criticized by the president of the Zionist Organization of America, who told TMZ Sports that he should be publicly condemned for the tweet. Others, including this Twitter user, thought the athlete had nothing to apologize for:
Apparently NBA star Dwight Howard has some things to say about the conflict between Israel and Gaza. Well, kind of.
Over the weekend, the Houston Rockets center tweeted "#FreePalestine" then quickly deleted it. He followed that up with an apology comment that read, Previous tweet was a mistake. I have never commented on international politics and never will.
Was removing the tweet the right move? Howard was heavily criticized by the president of the Zionist Organization of America, who told TMZ Sports that he should be publicly condemned for the tweet. Others, including this Twitter user, thought the athlete had nothing to apologize for:
Cheesecakebobby
Banned
1. Israel blockades Gaza, it does not occupy Gaza.
2. Israel is not the aggressor, unless you count maintaining the blockade as aggression.
3. Israel occupies the West Bank, and the occupation is not considered illegal. The building of settlements is generally considered illegal under international law.
4. Having military superiority over an enemy is irrelevant to whether or not you should respond to attacks by that enemy.
5. I didn't say "self-defense" in that quote, I said Israel is attempting to reduce war crimes. Crimes committed by a terror group against a sovereign state and against their own people.
Too many truth bombs for one video.
As long as a single settlement remains in the occupied territories, Israel cannot claim self defense. Abandon the occupation and i will start listening to the "Israel has a right to self defense" line.
Before they do, however, that line of argument is a sick, sick joke.
Thank the IDF for reducing those war crimes, i'm sure it was a Hamas rocket that turned around and killed this girls 2 siblings and her mother
Dude Abides
Banned
A blockade isn't the same thing as closed borders.
Lol Dennis Prager. Nothing about the scary Mooslem taking an oath on the Koran? Disappointing.
- Israel control of Gaza extends much further than its blockade. It controls its airspace, it controls and ration water and electricity, it runs its phone system. Fuck it still runs their census.
- Israel started this round of escalation. It responded to a terrorist attack in the west bank, you need to decide if you treat them as the same country or not. Also, naval blockade is an act of war, Israel itself is on the record that blocking the Straits of Tiran is an act of war (and it went to war over it in the past).
- In international law, occupation is only allowed to protect the local population. It's a joke to think that the IDF does that in the west bank.
- It's relevant when you demand a vastly inferior enemy to "fight fair".
- I'm sure it does, I really do, but Israel went through enough of those mini-wars to know that attack of these kind will results in significant death of innocent people. "I didn't mean to" only goes that far.
phalestine
aka iby.h
Cheesecakebobby
Banned
It may have been a Hamas war crime that put them next to a rocket launching site, I have no idea based on your emotive picture. Each death is tragic and each death could have been prevented first and foremost by Hamas. If more senseless deaths arise over the next days, remember that Israel today proved they were willing to have a ceasefire and Hamas continued firing.Thank the IDF for reducing those war crimes, i'm sure it was a Hamas rocket that turned around and killed this girls 2 siblings and her mother
Also you might want to rethink your snarky comment about Hamas rockets turning around. Around 40 have landed inside Gaza, but I'd be surprised if they admit that to the victims. Not to mention the rockets that have also hit the west bank.
We've been through that, according to international laws, the duty of the attacker to avoid civilian casualties is not dependant on whether or not the enemy is using human shields (which is also a war crime).
That duty is not without its limits mind you, but Israel policy of bombing the homes of Hamas leaders is a war crime through and through.
Again you refuse to accept a IDF rocket killed her relatives.
Interceptor
Banned
Thank the IDF for reducing those war crimes, i'm sure it was a Hamas rocket that turned around and killed this girls 2 siblings and her mother
I am kinda sick of all this injured kid propaganda. I feel bad for every child injured or even killed in this conflict but I can't believe how blatant and obvious they are used as a tool for propaganda. Its even more shocking how many people just suck it up. Its as is gaza is only inhabited by children and people who shoot rockets. Even after years of debunked and purposely misused fake pictures of dead children you cant have a discussion about gaza without being buried under pictures of children. (Sometimes from gaza, sometimes not, sometimes from the actual conflict, sometimes not, sometimes real, sometimes fake.)
captainnapalm
Member
Actually that terrorist attack in the West Bank was itself a response to the random sniping of two Palestinian teens minding their own business on May 20. It's been conveniently forgotten, but I even remember a thread about it on here.
So as usual, as it almost always does, Israel started the latest aggression.
It's oppression of Gaza runs far wider than just the blockade as well. As every single human rights organisation catalogues, Israel is a constant aggressor and human rights violator in Palestinian territories - year in and year out. It's not quietly minding its own business only to be the victim of rocket fire.
Cheesecakebobby
Banned
No, you refuse to accept why culpability rests on more than that fact.
You are right, shame The Guardian for posting such propaganda http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ael-hamas-unlikely-arab-league-eu-kerry-hague
Interceptor
Banned
How does quoting a source to this picture change anything of what i wrote?
Yeah it's hard when you are forced to think of israel's victims as living human beings, it's much easier to sleep at night thinking of them as just sub human terrorists.
Interceptor
Banned
Ah, if only everything was so simple in life.QuicheFontaine
Member
Is the Gaza Strip a "country"?
No. However, the UN recognizes the Palestinian territories as a whole, to be a non-member observer state.
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