theignoramus
Member
Its interesting to me that a Conservative MP is speaking in such critical terms about Israel. In America or Canada, his right wing peers would be shouting about Hamas using human shields and how Israel needs more public support
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Breaking: Israel launches Operation Protective Edge against Hamas in Gaza
- Thread starter RustyNails
- Start date
- Status
Its interesting to me that a Conservative MP is speaking in such critical terms about Israel. In America or Canada, his right wing peers would be shouting about Hamas using human shields and how Israel needs more public support
Well they've achieved their goal however. They've driven sympathy for the Israeli government to an all time low. The bombings in Gaza are useless and everyone recognizes it, Hamas are getting exactly what they wanted... a violent and deadly response from the IDF that's killed more civilians than militants.
All Hamas has to do is keep firing missiles and eventually the world will turn on Israel because their solution of killing everyone in Gaza is untenable.
Israel is never going to give Jersualem back. I've talked with some IDF folks and used to work with an IDF Paratrooper who fought in Lebanon in the 80s and all of them were fine with a Palestinian State. I always ask this question cause I find it intriguing what is going over there. I was surprised at first because I thought it would be more animosity.
The one thing all of them agreed was that Israel would never give E. Jerusalem to the Palestinians as a capital. At some point someone will have to make a concession to end it all.
All of the ceasefire talk is confusing. The first one I saw the spokesman of the Hamas military wing say that they hadn't seen it from Egypt and weren't consulted,but he called it a joke(not sure how if he never saw it) Then the second one Hamas or someone has fired mortar rounds into Israel while the ceasefire is going on. Now the BBC is saying neither side agreed to a ceasefire. What?
Though the world hasn't turned on Israel, if anything all the major powers have supported Israel's "right to defend itself" and condemned Hamas. This has been the case in every conflict.
Hamas can keep firing rockets but in reality it is hurting its own people more. You have seen the death ratio, it is hurting the Palestinians more. It also is cementing into the Israeli public mind that Hamas can never be trusted and that the blockade must continue.
The Palestinians are not in a place of power to make any demands, it is something there leadership hasn't seemed to grasp.
They got to take the best they can get - the offer negotiated at 2000 camp David summit should have been taken. It didn't give them everything but it would be the step towards peace and eventual economic cooperation.
Jag
Member
Yeah, I've been reading it. Very interesting take and insight into the conflict.
sindbadthesailor
Member
That's great to hear, honestly.
Well, with the US, I'm sure the Iraq war, Guantanamo Bay, their support of Israel etc is not helping. But with Israel, if they just free'd Palestine, in ending the occupation and siege, quit building new settlements on Palestinian land and agreed to terms based on the 1967 borders, with Palestine as a Sovereign state, I honestly feel much of that resentment would subside.
It's no different really to some of the growing anti Islamic sentiment due to the terrorist factions, 9/11 etc. These things happen and move with the political climate and world affairs.
What do you mean?
The people who are spewing anti-semitic crap have always been anti-semitic likely, they just feel like they can be more vocal now. I honestly don't think many rational people are going to look at the current conflict and determine the Jews are at fault.
Whilst obviously a positive development, this is still subjacent to the real issues here, which are the continued brutal occupation of Palestine, and the never ending land grab by Israel. Until these two things are dealt with, the situation will never progress, and things will remain in this constant cycle (which is presumably what Israel wants).
I mean in ending their brutal military occupation. Eg, major control of Palestine's air space, ports, trade, road networks, supplies, humanitarian aid, electricity, land, import/export and so on and so on.
of course Hamas has weakened the left, the never ending rocket fire has strengthened the right wing parties a lot, when people are in danger they stop caring about the other side, im sure its the same with the idf attacks and the people in Gaza
I actually think the solution you outlined would be ideal. I am all in favor of it. I just don't think it will happen. When i was a teen i would repeat something similar to what you just listed every-time the Israeli-Palestinian discussion would come. Israel must act, but over time (now in my 30's) i have come to conclusion that solution would never work.
I think the Palestinian leadership need to accept that they are not in a place of power for negotiations. They have to accept they won't get east Jerusalem. They also need to accept that Israel won't negotiate with Hamas. Abbas needs to distance himself from Hamas and perhaps even go as far as dissolving the Unity government and just deal directly with Israel to solve the West Bank. I am against the settlements, but I have come to accept that they are there. The Palestinians cannot afford to continue on their current path, there won't be much left of them or their land. Their Arab neighbors don't want or care for them, most of the international community don't really care and with the US governments unwavering support of the Israel, the Palestinian leadership need to make the hard choice of giving up a lot of what they have wanted and accept any comprise they can get - though it is going to be really difficult with the current Israeli government. Perhaps they can force Israel's hand by having Obama mediate the negotiations, another Camp David if you will.
I am pro-Israeli right to have a state, and pro-Palestinian right to have a state. I am neither Israeli, Palestinian, Jew or Muslim. Though I am definitely anti-Hamas, i have seen what Islamic militance has done to families - I am of Iranian ethnicity and many in my family have been killed at the hands of Islamic militants for nothing more than just not agreeing to their ideology and trying to leave a peaceful life. You just have to look at the family of the 4 boys who died on beach from IDF shelling. One of the members of the family stated that many members of her family had been killed by Hamas. Here the quote:
Anyhow, I am more than happy to debate any of the points above.
Maninthemirror
Banned
Once you reach congress, senate, presidency and any main government agency as a public person, you have to publicly say I support Israel.
Or at least that is my perception because they all support israel more than their own civilians. Like Obama, Bush, Clinton, Reagan, Carter etc etc. ALL of them included Israel in its speech even when there were no gunfire. its a mandatory remark in every state of the union.
It has been a US policy to support Israel, and it will always be the policy.
Hahahahaha I had a good laugh at that one man.
Israel's killing of hundreds of innocent children and civilians -> Not their fault, it just happened.
That would be similair to saying it wasn't hitler's fault the holocaust happened.
Woah... uh, I meant The Jews as a people. Clearly the IDF and Israeli government are responsible for the deaths of scores of civilians in the current conflict... but the Israeli civilians and Jewish people around the world carry no blame for this so I figured people wouldn't get irrational. I guess I was wrong.
Is there a better representation of "The Jews as a People" than Israel? If so please tell me, I am all ears.
Maninthemirror
Banned
Jews in Israel say Israel is thier religious chosen land. By Proxy they are saying to criticize Israel is to criticize Judaism. even a person criticizing Israel's foriegn policy and military is thus labelled an anti-semite but that also gives others the right to then call out 'The Jews' because of the intertwining of Jewish beleifs and Israel as a land. Basically you can't expect a person not to criticize Israel and call him an anti-semite and then get offended if that same criteria is used to say 'The Jews' even if its only applying to those living in Israel and supporting their foreign policies
NYCmetsfan
Banned
Fears about antisemitism intertwining with anti-israel beliefs are just figments of 'israel supporters' (who also support the creation of a Palestinian state and better treatment of the arab minority in the state of Israel) imaginations.
Because these aren't clearly antisemitic statements?
There MUST be some high level politicians atleast querying about the current situation and not necessarily siding with Israel.
Like your TV coverage, has there been much debate?
Maninthemirror
Banned
I don't think such a person can remain elected in office especially congress, senate or presidency. Not yet anyway
TV outlets say at the end of the day there have been 200 Gazans killed in a 10 second sentence. When an Israeli dies there is a 1 day coverage with an on-site reporter on that specific incident. When there is a segment where the a talk of the 200 Gazans killed somehow the exchange between the host and the reporter changes to how its related to Israel's security.
sindbadthesailor
Member
The argument changes to fit whatever narrative is appropriate at the time.
On the one hand, Israel belongs to those of the Jewish faith as ordained in the bible/torah/whatever, therefore they can't give those of other faiths (i.e. Palestinians) legal recognition and citizenship.
On the other hand, Israel is the only secular democracy in the middle east and most definitely isn't a Jewish theocracy, so therefore everyone must support them as a bastion in the darkness of arab dictators.
I agree. recent in Sweden, the leader of the Social democratic party said on Facebook, that he condemned both side of the conflict (Hamas for firing rockets against civilians, Israel for bombing the fuck out of Gaza, etc) and all the antisemtic stuff I saw there was nasty as shit. People yelling FUCKING JEWLOVER, FUCK THE JEWS and ISRAEL AND ALL JEWS SHALL DIE. When the newspapers talked about it, they just said "leader of Social democratic faces criticism over post on facebook" and they didn't brought up all the antisemitism of those that posted there. It is disgusting as hell.
D
Deleted member 125677
Unconfirmed Member
Maybe the millions of Jews not living in Israel? The numerous Jews living in Israel who support the Palestinian people? You cannot judge an entire people based on a small but powerful minority.
We're talking about anti-semitism, not anti-israelism. Very different things that shouldn't be confused.
Yes it's disgusting, but it happens on both sides. I saw reaction to pro-palestina posts being answered with Just carpetbomb those arabs and I'm sure they will get their virgins when the IDF blasts them to death.
Anti-semitism has been around for a long time, though Islamaphobia has really exploded with the growth and tenacity of Islamic militants.
LOL "small but powerful minority". Let's talk facts here and not spew bullshit out of our ass.
The world's core Jewish population in early 2013 was estimated at 13.9 million people. Out of those 6.2 million were in Israel (44% is a small minority?). Then the second country with highest number of jews is the USA with 5.5 million (39.5%). Together that's 83.5% of the world Jews. ????
Sickboy007
Member
Over 80% of Conservative MPs are in Conservative Friends of Israel.
You're assuming that every Jew in Israel and the US fully support the bloodthirsty government.
Regardless of that assumption, blanket anti-semitism is ignorant and hateful. My original point stands, unless you're completely irrational, you cannot blame the Jews (as a people) for this loss of life. If your position is one of condemnation of the Jewish people then I don't know what else to call that but anti-semitism.
Ayelet Shaked is a politician in Israel. This woman is utterly disgusting, fuck I would not even call her a human anymore.
'MOTHERS OF ALL PALESTINIANS SHOULD ALSO BE KILLED,' SAYS ISRAELI POLITICIAN
'MOTHERS OF ALL PALESTINIANS SHOULD ALSO BE KILLED,' SAYS ISRAELI POLITICIAN
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/why-im-on-the-brink-of-burning-my-israeli-passport-9600165.html
http://www.dailysabah.com/mideast/2...should-also-be-killed-says-israeli-politician
RustyNails
Member
If the Palestinians won't get East Jerusalem, won't get the settlement areas, do not get right of return, what exactly do you think a Palestinian state should look like. I am interested. Please draw the boundaries of the map using this tool http://education.nationalgeographic.com/education/mapping/interactive-map/?ar_a=1
You can't. What you're arguing for is basically one-state solution. The 67 borders is already a concession from Palestinians.
Yeah well, PA has been dealing with Israel peacefully with nothing but more settlements.
RustyNails
Member
Naftali is worse than her. He admitted killing Arabs in the past, and is proud of it. He is also an MP in the knesset.
Just read about this now. Turkish PM blasted her. Comparing her mentality to that of Hitlers lol.
Some of Ayelet Shaked's choice quotes.
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/gaza-crisi...politician-ayelet-shaked-adolf-hitler-1456748
Members of the Knesset continue to say outrageous and disgusting things, calling on the genocide of an entire people. Who is it that wants who wiped off the map and out of existence again?
That is up-to the Palestinians and Israeli negotiators to decide on the borders. You would be very naive to think that Israel will give up East-Jerusalem, or evacuate any of their more established settlements. The settlements in the West Bank have been increasing in number in the last 20 years, with international pressure not really doing much to curb them, and the current Israeli government doesn't seem in a hurry to slow down or stop them.
As i stated earlier, the Palestinian leadership don't have any leverage, resistance through conflict has only resulted in more Palestinian death and strengthened the resolve of the Israeli right and always results in the western powers supporting Israel in it's retaliation/aggression.
At the end of the day, they can continue with their resistance, and hope that in a couple of decades or more international, and US, policy changes will favor them, but how much of the West Bank will be left by then, how much Palestinian blood will be shed. Eventually you just have to deal with the cards that have been dealt to you and play your best hand.
Do you think Israel will hand over control of and sovereignty of E. Jerusalem to the Palestinian people, or they will ever back to the '67 borders?
You pretty much just summed up why Israel will not end it's heinous illegal settlement expansion plans, and why they are the real problem and main culprit in this conflict. Like you said, they have all the leverage. And they are abusing that in every single way possible.
Blockades, military occupations, demolitions en mass, land theft, unjustified arrests in huge numbers with the victims given no proper access to legal aid or justice, torture, brutality, the control of humanitarian aid and supplies, extreme disproportionate military action and strikes etc etc.
They're taking it to a whole new level. And will continue to whilst the rest of the world (mainly the US) allows it. Ultimately there may not be much left of Palestine at all if the rest of the world doesn't step in to say enough is enough. It's why it's so much more important now than ever before to raise our voices.
Also doesn't matter whether Israel want to give up much of that land or not, fact of the matter is, the land steal and territories that many of these settlements are built and being built upon, are not only illegal under international law, but also Palestinian as recognised by the international community and laws, and at some point Israel is going to have to factor that in. Territory stealing by brutal occupation and aggression is not something that is generally accepted in this day and age, and laws and rules exist against it for good reason.
Absolutely fucking disgusting that they're capitalising on the downed plane.
Link?
DXB-KNIGHT
Member
Somebody needs to protect the Palestinians in Gaza from Israel and Hamas and especially Hamas, it seems they also don't care for the People in Gaza. While Palestinians in Gaza are suffering from Hamas stupidity , Hamas leaders are living peacefully in Qatar. This is really sicking
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
Heard it on Fox News just now.
PhantomHound
Banned
Fox is talking about it. Israel has invaded GAZA
- Status