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Canada Poligaf - The Wrath of Harperland

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Financing? The maximum donation limit is $1100, and the average donation for all 3 major parties sits at $100~ per person, if that.

financing in all regards, how much we pay politcians for example. These people should be working from room and board. A person making 200k a year will never understand the point of view of someone who makes 40k, so how can they accurately represent these consituents which consitute the majority of their electorate.
 

krae_man

Member
financing in all regards, how much we pay politcians for example. These people should be working from room and board. A person making 200k a year will never understand the point of view of someone who makes 40k, so how can they accurately represent these consituents which consitute the majority of their electorate.

If you pay them minimum wage, or just "room and board" they only people who will be able to afford to be a MP are people already independantly wealthy. MP need and deserve to be paid well.
 

diaspora

Member
If you pay them minimum wage, or just "room and board" they only people who will be able to afford to be a MP are people already independantly wealthy. MP need and deserve to be paid well.

Agreed. IIRC, Tory MP Chong and Grit senator Eggleton are making a point to research poverty and the growing gini ratio.
 
If you pay them minimum wage, or just "room and board" they only people who will be able to afford to be a MP are people already independantly wealthy. MP need and deserve to be paid well.

or... they would raise the minimum wage to a respectable level, and actually make change for those who are in the most need of it. Their work is hard, and we should want the best to represent us, but money as a incentive is a corrupt means of doing that. Perhaps we pay them the same we pay candian soldiers.
 

diaspora

Member
or... they would raise the minimum wage to a respectable level, and actually make change for those who are in the most need of it. Their work is hard, and we should want the best to represent us, but money as a incentive is a corrupt means of doing that. Perhaps we pay them the same we pay candian soldiers.

That's not federal jurisdiction.
 

diaspora

Member
fine, then they supplement the income via better subsidizing of healthcare, food costs, education, whatever. Either way, these people should have the best interests of canada in mind, and to do that money needs to be removed from the equation.

Health care transfers are steady if not increasing. National daycare was on the table on 2005 before the NDP and tories turfed the grits, transfers to the provinces for education isn't being slashed...

Incidentally, looking at the grit caucus, many of them were scientists, economists, business people, management, and lawyers who could easily have been making more money in their previous profession. What's this notion of the salary being the main draw for people getting involved in federal politics even coming from?
 
Health care transfers are steady if not increasing. National daycare was on the table on 2005 before the NDP and tories turfed the grits, transfers to the provinces for education isn't being slashed...

Incidentally, looking at the grit caucus, many of them were scientists, economists, business people, management, and lawyers who could easily have been making more money in their previous profession. What's this notion of the salary being the main draw for people getting involved in federal politics even coming from?

You honestly dont think that these people are creating backroom deals with lobby groups and other institutions to make money? how naive. :(
 

diaspora

Member
You honestly dont think that these people are creating backroom deals with lobby groups and other institutions to make money? how naive. :(

You honestly think these people would risk their careers and let their parties implode by taking bags of cash from lobbyists? Can I borrow your tinfoil hat? Not all MPs are Mulroney.
 
II don't think anyone takes bags of money but the cutting of corporate taxes to get a job in a big bank and subsidizing their best friend's businesses happens all the time.
 

diaspora

Member
II don't think anyone takes bags of money but the cutting of corporate taxes to get a job in a big bank and subsidizing their best friend's businesses happens all the time.

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Incidentally, incrementally decreasing the corporate tax rate which oddly hasn't changed aggregate tax revenue over time doesn't make a difference as to whether or not someone gets a job at TD. One of the few things that can and will make a tangible impact on tax revenues is restoring consumption taxes by the 2%.
 
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Incidentally, incrementally decreasing the corporate tax rate which oddly hasn't changed aggregate tax revenue over time doesn't make a difference as to whether or not someone gets a job at TD. One of the few things that can and will make a tangible impact on tax revenues is restoring consumption taxes by the 2%.

This is Ontario but Duncan and Harris both resigned mid-term for cushiony private sector jobs with vague title descriptions like "adviser" or "senior member".

Decreasing corporate taxes reduces the tax revenue that would have been made had the corporate taxes stayed the same. Increasing sales tax increases tax revenue the most for the same reason increasing taxes on low and middle income households generates the most revenue: it affects the most people. Sales tax is not a fair way to increase tax revenue, it hits household budgets the hardest. Not to mention that low sales tax is attractive to businesses and investors as well.
 

GSG Flash

Nobody ruins my family vacation but me...and maybe the boy!
Totally off the charts here, but I was thinking about the Conservatives attack ads and I'm kind of surprised the other parties don't attack the CPC on being "un-Canadian". I mean the Conservatives like to throw that accusation around left and right any chance they get, but they're the most "un-Canadian" of any Canadian political party. Seems like it would be a good way to turn the tables on them.

Anyways, that's just some of my random political thoughts.
 

diaspora

Member
Decreasing corporate taxes reduces the tax revenue

It can, different from it would especially given that changes in corporate income affect tax revenue far more than any up or down change to the rate. Corporate revenue hasn't changed particularly much precisely because of this. Revenue was actually up in 2012 despite depressed rates, hell, talking about rates at all as if they matter particularly much by the left, right, and centre is a perfect showcase of political rhetoric despite uselessness.

Raising the rate won't necessarily expand revenue like some centrists and the left like to believe, nor would lowering it expand economic activity despite what the right and other centrists would like to believe since there's a huge plurality of factors that would affect corporate income and consequently corporate tax revenue besides miniscule fluctuations in corporate taxes. All political parties like to wield the rhetoric, not because it's right, but rather, because it's easy.
 

gabbo

Member
Totally off the charts here, but I was thinking about the Conservatives attack ads and I'm kind of surprised the other parties don't attack the CPC on being "un-Canadian". I mean the Conservatives like to throw that accusation around left and right any chance they get, but they're the most "un-Canadian" of any Canadian political party. Seems like it would be a good way to turn the tables on them.

Anyways, that's just some of my random political thoughts.

That would simply be more of the same, with a different logo at the end.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
That's as true for Mississippi Democrats as it is for Conservative Londoners as it is for Alberta Liberals.

We need to get over this idea that a voting system, and a voting system alone, will beget increased agency/empowerment with respect to feelings of "throwing away their vote". Voters are beyond cynical; many have just given up even trying to understand what goes on day-to-day in Parliament. As a result, when asked, a whole whack of people will mix up what goes on in their province and what goes on in Ottawa. Which for whatever reason, gets treated as "they're not paying attention therefore we can do what we want." Creating, in the end, this cycle of disengagement/disenfranchisement that won't be fixed with a more involved voting system.

Why don't we talk about agency and empowerment in terms of "throwing away their vote" because "all parties are the same" and will act no matter their stripe or who votes for them. That's a greater concern in terms of breaking the cynicism cycle than strategic voting on account of geography. Strategic voting and "I'm an x voter in a y riding" implies at least some degree of engagement with the system, writ large, whereas "everyone's the same" implies little-to-no depth of awareness and engagement at all. (On the premise that you have to know enough about your local area and riding and political representation to feel you're outnumbered and therefore don't count, while you don't have to know anything at all to dismiss political parties as "all the same" with no further explanation.)

Thinking about the problem of non-engagement and non-voting in this way, the solutions are less about the electoral system and more about education, grassroots leadership, and changes to party structures.

That's not to say the electoral system should not be changed - but, rather, that we should look at other ways to increase agency and empowerment first.

I look at it this way. The by-election to replace Layton was the first time that I didn't vote in a Federal election. I'm not even sure if I'm going to vote in 2015 because a) the 2 dollar thing doesn't apply any more and b) the NDP candidate whose name I don't even know would have to essentially expose himself as some kind of bigot to lose Toronto-Danforth, so there's literally no point in me doing it. And I consider myself someone who is more engaged with Canadian politics than the average Canadian.

If you're not going to force people to vote - declare a national holiday and make voting legally mandatory - then you have to make other functional changes. Relying on the public to be "inspired" by the process and the people involved in the process is a foolhardy proposition, because people end up being extremely fickle. I'm sure the people excited by Trudeau will come out, but what next? Say he manages to claw the Liberals back into official opposition, can he keep their interest for 3-5 years for the next election? I seriously doubt it.
 
I look at it this way. The by-election to replace Layton was the first time that I didn't vote in a Federal election. I'm not even sure if I'm going to vote in 2015 because a) the 2 dollar thing doesn't apply any more and b) the NDP candidate whose name I don't even know would have to essentially expose himself as some kind of bigot to lose Toronto-Danforth, so there's literally no point in me doing it. And I consider myself someone who is more engaged with Canadian politics than the average Canadian.

If you're not going to force people to vote - declare a national holiday and make voting legally mandatory - then you have to make other functional changes. Relying on the public to be "inspired" by the process and the people involved in the process is a foolhardy proposition, because people end up being extremely fickle. I'm sure the people excited by Trudeau will come out, but what next? Say he manages to claw the Liberals back into official opposition, can he keep their interest for 3-5 years for the next election? I seriously doubt it.

If what you said was true, then no one would have come back to vote for Chretien or Mulroney or anyone else who won more than one term. The same thing was also said about Obama, but he ended up winning in 2012 with more votes than in 2008.

I think you need to take off your cynical hat sometimes. People have been complaining that the world has been falling apart for ever, and it never really has. Our system is fine, it just goes through cycles of ups and downs.
 

Boogie

Member
I look at it this way. The by-election to replace Layton was the first time that I didn't vote in a Federal election. I'm not even sure if I'm going to vote in 2015 because a) the 2 dollar thing doesn't apply any more and b) the NDP candidate whose name I don't even know would have to essentially expose himself as some kind of bigot to lose Toronto-Danforth, so there's literally no point in me doing it. And I consider myself someone who is more engaged with Canadian politics than the average Canadian.

If you're not going to vote, you don't get to boast about being "more engaged with Canadian politics than the average Canadian". Period.

Voting is the base level, minimum duty, and responsibility of citizenship.

No matter how many excuses you throw up for why your vote "doesn't matter", if you can't muster up enough "give a damn" to take an hour out of your day every couple of years just to drop a piece of paper in a box, I don't ever want to see you complain in this thread about our low and declining voter turnout in this country. Because you will have become part of the problem, not part of the solution.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
If you're not going to vote, you don't get to boast about being "more engaged with Canadian politics than the average Canadian". Period.

Voting is the base level, minimum duty, and responsibility of citizenship.

No matter how many excuses you throw up for why your vote "doesn't matter", if you can't muster up enough "give a damn" to take an hour out of your day every couple of years just to drop a piece of paper in a box, I don't ever want to see you complain in this thread about our low and declining voter turnout in this country. Because you will have become part of the problem, not part of the solution.
I don't believe voting meets any obligation anymore, because if you are voting just because Harper says Trudeau is an idiot and haven't actually given any thought to the policies that your local MP supports, let alone weigh the positions/platforms of the various parties, then you are actually tainting the process more than if you didn't bother voting in the first place.

I mean, I can't vote in Australia but I'm fairly interested in what happens to Rudd and his stupid pissing match with Gillard. I can't vote in America but I'm interested in what will happen in the midterms and in 2016. Voting is not the only indicator of engagement, and nor should it be.

(I would argue that a person engaged with their local politics would know the phone number/address of their MPP and MP riding offices, for one, and regularly writes letters telling them about what they feel about various bills)

If what you said was true, then no one would have come back to vote for Chretien or Mulroney or anyone else who won more than one term. The same thing was also said about Obama, but he ended up winning in 2012 with more votes than in 2008.

I think you need to take off your cynical hat sometimes. People have been complaining that the world has been falling apart for ever, and it never really has. Our system is fine, it just goes through cycles of ups and downs.
Well, for a while, we've had lower voter turnout as a trend in Canada. And I may be pulling this out of my ass, but I seem to remember that turnout in 2012 was lower than it was in 2008.

But I acknowledge that I'm extremely cynical and have given up on the voting public at large. It probably happened when Ontario resoundingly rejected MMP in the referendum 5 years ago. At that point, I just gave up and stopped caring. lol
 

Boogie

Member
Reading political stories on the internet and then rambling on about them on GAF != "engagement"

It's the internet equivalent of reading the newspaper and then bitching about the news with your friends/coworkers at Tim Horton's in the morning, which everyone does.


Remember what was the closest thing to the death blow in the last campaign? Yeah, it was Jack turning to Ignatieff and essentially saying "all of the lofty talk is nice, but in a democracy, you have one job: to show up and vote. And you haven't done that."

Right now, you're the Iggy of CanadaPoliGAF, firehawk.
 
But I acknowledge that I'm extremely cynical and have given up on the voting public at large. It probably happened when Ontario resoundingly rejected MMP in the referendum 5 years ago. At that point, I just gave up and stopped caring. lol

Ontario rejected MMP because 1) it was a terrible, undemocratic idea that would give even more power to the parties, and 2) the campaign's core message of "Hey dummy, vote for this if you've got any brains" was pretty insulting. Maybe if the pro-MMPers had explained why electoral reform was necessary, rather than just taking it as a given that everyone already knew why, they wouldn't have been so resoundingly defeated.

In any case, turning your back on participating in the democratic process when it doesn't produce your preferred outcomes is kind of sad.

Also, that idea to have MPs working for just room and board? I know I'm a little late to the discussion, but I have to say that it's one of the worst ideas I've ever heard. Why would you make it harder for people to get involved in the process? As diaspora said, it would make politics exclusively the domain of the rich. And suggesting that they all get to line their pockets when they leave politics is just wrong, bordering on libel. Some cabinet ministers might be able to find better jobs upon leaving politics, but the average MP will be returning to whatever they were doing before they become an MP, only with the disadvantage of having all their skills and knowledge a few years out of date.

Lastly, here's the solution to making the system more democratic and less controlled by parties: more MPs. You want to have a more direct connection with who you're voting for? Then don't make each MP responsible for 100,000+ constituents, and don't give them electoral districts that cover massive areas.
 

diaspora

Member
I think population is less of an issue rather than sheer geographical area. Markham has quite a few people, but McCallum's constituency office is perfectly accessible because of the relative density of the riding.
 

Sapiens

Member
With all of this negative news about our governing regime, I'd be surprised if the CPC didn't win EVERY seat in 2015.

That's how Canada rolls.

In all seriousness, I plan to donate monthly to the Grits for the rest of my life.
 

firehawk12

Subete no aware
Remember what was the closest thing to the death blow in the last campaign? Yeah, it was Jack turning to Ignatieff and essentially saying "all of the lofty talk is nice, but in a democracy, you have one job: to show up and vote. And you haven't done that."

Right now, you're the Iggy of CanadaPoliGAF, firehawk.
And I think he did the smart thing by running away and going back to Harvard or wherever he is right now. lol

I'll be honest, I don't even know the name of the guy who replaced Layton, but I figure that he would have to basically say he hates gays, Asians and Greeks and even then, he would probably still win. If he needs my one vote, he's got more problems than I can fix.

In any case, turning your back on participating in the democratic process when it doesn't produce your preferred outcomes is kind of sad.
If that was all it was, I would have stopped voting when Harper won the first minority. To me, it was just a sign of an uneducated and unengaged electorate unwilling to even put in the time to consider a new electoral system.

I can't tell you how crushed I was at the BC referendum, if only because it was so damn close.
Apparently HST is enough to get everyone riled up, but not electoral reform. Go figure.

Also, that idea to have MPs working for just room and board? I know I'm a little late to the discussion, but I have to say that it's one of the worst ideas I've ever heard. Why would you make it harder for people to get involved in the process? As diaspora said, it would make politics exclusively the domain of the rich. And suggesting that they all get to line their pockets when they leave politics is just wrong, bordering on libel. Some cabinet ministers might be able to find better jobs upon leaving politics, but the average MP will be returning to whatever they were doing before they become an MP, only with the disadvantage of having all their skills and knowledge a few years out of date.
I honestly don't know where this is coming from or directed to me, so I'm just going to skip it.

Lastly, here's the solution to making the system more democratic and less controlled by parties: more MPs. You want to have a more direct connection with who you're voting for? Then don't make each MP responsible for 100,000+ constituents, and don't give them electoral districts that cover massive areas.

I think population is less of an issue rather than sheer geographical area. Markham has quite a few people, but McCallum's constituency office is perfectly accessible because of the relative density of the riding.
It's why Penashue (THE GREATEST CANADIAN AND HARDEST WORKING MP IN THE HISTORY OF CANADA) had to take bribes to fly around his riding in order to get votes anyway.
 
I honestly don't know where this is coming from or directed to me, so I'm just going to skip it.

Sorry, no, not directed at you -- I was responding this:

financing in all regards, how much we pay politcians for example. These people should be working from room and board. A person making 200k a year will never understand the point of view of someone who makes 40k, so how can they accurately represent these consituents which consitute the majority of their electorate.

It's just so...wrong-headed, to be polite.
 

diaspora

Member
There are grits mobilizing in Markham-Unionville to take the nomination from McCallum, especially interesting since we're going to be absorbing Tory Thornhill polls.
 


Thornhill is becoming Thornhill - Vaughan - Markham or something like that, we are losing a part of the current riding to one of the Markham ridings and a portion of our fundraising money is going along with it to that ridings EDA

Just like every other riding that is getting split
 

diaspora

Member
Thornhill is becoming Thornhill - Vaughan - Markham or something like that

This I knew.

we are losing a part of the current riding to one of the Markham ridings and a portion of our fundraising money is going along with it to that ridings EDA

This I didn't.

My main issue with the EDA and current McCallum hegemony in Markham is that too many people here are concerned with how the leader can get the "immigrant" vote back (most of whom are immigrants), without taking any time to try to find out why they left in the first place. The pigeon-holing of "immigrants" into a single voting bloc is in part why our support has splintered both left and right here and why now others are gearing up to challenge him for the nomination.

edit- Can we drive Joe Volpe out of politics or at least kick his ass for the nomination? I seriously don't want that piece of shit to be the nominee again.
 
It's in the Liberal constitution, lets say a riding is losing 30% of it's voters, it also loses 30% of it's funds

It does make sense, the new riding EDAs would be royally screwed if they had to start from scratch
 

Kak.efes

Member
Ugh, conservatives are succeeding in ushering in the era of the permanent campaign, and turning us into America-Light. This brand of politics is just so fucking toxic.
 

diaspora

Member
Ugh, conservatives are succeeding in ushering in the era of the permanent campaign, and turning us into America-Light. This brand of politics is just so fucking toxic.

To be fair, we don't have our own version of Citizens United and SuperPACs. The main thing that needs to be quelled right now are the Tories advertising their own government with the Economic Action Plan commercials.
 
It looks like Wynne's honeymoon is slowly coming to an end

http://globalnews.ca/news/508703/ontario-liberals-trail-behind-conservatives-poll/

Conservatives - 37%
New Democrats - 29%
Liberals - 28%
Others+Greens - 6%

I hope Horwath staves off the election given these numbers o_O Although we do have to take in the inner caucus revolt going on under Hudak into account.
 

Shambles

Member
To be fair, we don't have our own version of Citizens United and SuperPACs. The main thing that needs to be quelled right now are the Tories advertising their own government with the Economic Action Plan commercials.

Although the last time I subjected myself to a movie theatre they played a political attack ad against the Alberta Government. Isn't that basically what superPACs do is dump money into advertising to trash the other side all while hiding behind the mask of some other organization?
 

diaspora

Member
Although the last time I subjected myself to a movie theatre they played a political attack ad against the Alberta Government. Isn't that basically what superPACs do is dump money into advertising to trash the other side all while hiding behind the mask of some other organization?

A bigger issue for provincial elections than federal. BC afaik has little to no fundraising laws resulting in obscene union and corporate donors which is problematic in Ontario and Alberta as well, though not to the same degree as BC.
 

maharg

idspispopd
Although the last time I subjected myself to a movie theatre they played a political attack ad against the Alberta Government. Isn't that basically what superPACs do is dump money into advertising to trash the other side all while hiding behind the mask of some other organization?

To be fair that's the first time in like 20 years the opposition has managed to pull off any kind of dissenting political advertising on a large scale. We have a lot of bigger fish to fry in this province before we get to campaign financing issues, tbh.
 
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