Support NeoGAF

[You Are Viewtiful]

I think I heard Paikin say the victory has to be within 100 votes on TVO.

 

[AlphaTwo00]

Anyone know the circumstances required for a mandatory recount?

From Elections Ontario:

An application for judicial recount automatically occurs when the race is closer than 25 ballots.

 

[BigJonsson]

I'd imagine Racco and Martow had enough scrutineers to make sure things were counted properly, I guess we'll know pretty quickly if the Martow campaign wants to pursue one

 

[AlphaTwo00]

I'd imagine Racco and Martow had enough scrutineers to make sure things were counted properly, I guess we'll know pretty quickly if the Martow campaign wants to pursue one

What's surprising is the increase in turnout in the area. The by-election a few months ago was a surprising drop (13K and 11K respectively for the top two), where as this round they're both over 21K.

 

[BigJonsson]

What's surprising is the increase in turnout in the area. The by-election a few months ago was a surprising drop (13K and 11K respectively for the top two), where as this round they're both over 21K.

Winter sucked and it was a by-election


I wonder how much Martow's anti-transit stance factored into her defeat..........and for the PCs all over the GTA for that matter

 

[equippedwithtowel]

#fortressottawa.

Also we won Durham. So there's that

 

[Zombie James]

 

[explodet]

Hmm, suddenly I want some Mr. Greek.

 

[Buba Big Guns]

Ottawa surprisingly went all Liberal, other than Nepean-Carleton which will never go anything but Conservative consider we keep electing that asshole Poilievre.

And fuck HSR, all about the hyperloop.

 

[maharg]

Because she turned down a budget that accomplished her goals to force an unnecessary election which didn't benefit her party at all and will certainly lead to governance moving to the right; transformed an opponent's minority government into a majority government; gained no seats; it was her second electoral loss; ran a campaign that many within the party felt was an abdication of the party's principles; your purported "gain in vote count" amounts to a 2% rise in the popular vote so noting that such a rise was larger than the Liberal's vote rise counts for approximately nothing.

God I hate that this has become a common meme. "Unnecessary election" is nothing but a demotivating tactic that's become part of public consciousness. From an outsider perspective it would seem absurd for a minority government with the level of controversy the OLP has had to NOT be brought down in the house and taken to the voters. That's what's *supposed* to happen.

That the verdict of the people supported the Liberals doesn't make it unnecessary. If someone is found not guilty in a court of law, was the trial a waste of money?

 

[matthewwhatever]

Disappointing. I was hoping they'd top themselves. The Ottawa Sun headline is even less schadenfreude-y: "Up Grit Creek". I wanted tears of rage!

Ottawa surprisingly went all Liberal, other than Nepean-Carleton which will never go anything but Conservative consider we keep electing that asshole Poilievre.

It's not that surprising. Hudak said he'd cancel LTR, and vowed to basically kill the public service. We've been trying to get LTR for years now (and already spending money on one canceled contract), and even if the public servants in Ottawa are mainly federal, there's at least some solidarity there. Plus the Liberals did best with educated voters, and Ottawa is one of the most educated cities in the province.

And even Nepean-Carleton is a moral victory for the Liberals. McLeod's last two wins in 2007 and 2011 were by 19k and 15K votes; this time she won by 8k, and didn't crack 50%. Still a big margin, but not the overwhelming victory she usually gets.

 

[Azih]

I was supporting Horwath but I ain't mad at the result at all. I've always liked Wynne and seeing Hudak crash and burn is just sweet nectar.

Wynne has to clean house though. It's apparent that McGuinty dropped the ball by the end of his administration. If you have private partners then don't just give them a blank cheque and walk away. Audit, and administrate. I'm not a fan of fake majorities but Wynne did deserve a clear mandate. She's got one.

 

[Zips]

Good results overall, more or less. PCs went down in flames, which was the important part.

NDP need to figure out what in hell they're doing. Their leadership since the death of Layton has been uninspiring and running around like chickens with their heads cut off. I'd prefer a strong central government that leans left, so a strong left party would help keep things in that area. Stop flailing wildly NDP.

Liberals need to make an efficient and public display of cleaning out the corrupt elements. I doubt Wynne will do that though, unfortunately. Countdown to next scandal?

PCs, please feel free to choose another Hudak-like party member as your leader. It seems having someone just that unlikeable helps people see how terrible the ideas presented are.

 

[Azih]

I really really hope that the Harris segment of the PCs can go away and lick their wounds for a few decades and leave everyone else alone now.

 

[matthewwhatever]

They were talking about this on TVO last night, with Paikin (with help from Nik Nanos) making the case that the PCs were doomed unless they stopped being crazy right-wingers who only appeal to old people in rural areas. (I may be paraphrasing.) The PC shill's response was, basically, that the party leadership and platform reflects what its base picks -- much like the federal Tories and their partners down south in the GOP, there's no way that card-carrying party members are going to vote for a moderate, which means that they're not going to be able to present very moderate policies. That's kind of scary for the province/country, since, at some point, the Liberals will lose and the Conservatives are the most likely replacement, but for the time being it means the provincial PC Party is kind of screwed.

 

[AlphaTwo00]

LOL

 

[jstripes]

My brother, an avid Toronto Sun fan, called me last night, after I went to bed, to ask who won the election. Apparently he forgot to vote.

I told him Wynne won, he made a few homophobic remarks, parroted Sun nonsense, and then said Ontario is doomed and he's going to get a job in Alberta.

Family.

 

[elty]

Good article on Tim Hudek strategy:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...an-enormous-mess-to-clean-up/article19155179/

Mr. Hudak’s attempt to navigate his way to the Premier’s office involved writing off most of the electorate. Recognizing that their party’s appeal had narrowed since it last won government in the 1990s, he and his strategists didn’t try to broaden it. Instead, they tried to ensure that the roughly one-third of the population inclined to support them would be more motivated to vote than everyone else.

So the Tories ran a campaign that was almost entirely about preaching to the choir. Their platform, which among other things promised to cut 100,000 jobs in the broader public sector and slash corporate taxes by 30 per cent, was all about mobilizing the base. Their candidates were instructed to skip over doors that didn’t belong to likely supporters they needed to mobilize or the small number of undecided voters their modeling told them might easily be won over. Their leader went out day after day and delivered the same talking points, aimed only at people who saw the government’s failings exactly as he did.

I think the PC still could have won if they simply replace "cut 100000 public workers" to "reduce government size through attrition" and "cut corporate tax" to "cut small business tax".

 

[elty]

My brother, an avid Toronto Sun fan, called me last night, after I went to bed, to ask who won the election. Apparently he forgot to vote.

I told him Wynne won, he made a few homophobic remarks, parroted Sun nonsense, and then said Ontario is doomed and he's going to get a job in Alberta.

Family.

Regardless who is winning, it is probably better to get a job in Alberta anyways - unless Tim Hudek can magically conjure oil out of thin air.

 

[Azih]

Good article on Tim Hudek strategy:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...an-enormous-mess-to-clean-up/article19155179/



I think the PC still could have won if they simply replace "cut 100000 public workers" to "reduce government size through attrition" and "cut corporate tax" to "cut small business tax".

But that might not have energized the base. They needed an incredibly riled up base. Heck that's what got Harris elected really. And really I think the footnote on Hudak has already been written. "He really really wanted to be Harris 2.0"

 

[elty]

But that might not have energized the base. They needed an incredibly riled up base. Heck that's what got Harris elected really. And really I think the footnote on Hudak has already been written. "He really really wanted to be Harris 2.0"

The whatever base that they are relying on cannot compensate those who left because of their scary Harris policy - they end up receiving less popular vote (25K) than 2011. They are also more effective at mobilizing their opponent's base. Simply put, Tim Hudek framed himself just what Wynne wanted - and lost 8 seats to them in the process.

 

[Stumpokapow]

God I hate that this has become a common meme. "Unnecessary election" is nothing but a demotivating tactic that's become part of public consciousness. From an outsider perspective it would seem absurd for a minority government with the level of controversy the OLP has had to NOT be brought down in the house and taken to the voters. That's what's *supposed* to happen.

Well, first, let it be noted that I didn't support or vote for the OLP in this election. But really how I voted is neither here nor there when it comes to discussing this issue, if you assume that I'm posting in good faith and not being a hack. I'm also not particularly happy with the results last night.

That I described the election as unnecessary does not mean that it was illegitimate. Clearly in a minority government all parties have the capability to support the government or not (hell, clearly in a majority government, the first minister has the capacity to ask for an early dissolution even in spite of scheduled electoral laws to the contrary). So this was not an abuse of rules, but an operation within the rules.

In the same way, had the Liberals earned a minority, it would be fully legitimate within the rules for Hudak to wait for the first day of the house opening again and collapsing the government again. That would also be unnecessary. In fact, we can imagine a reductio ad absurdum where a hypothetical jursidiction has three parties; one that always wins minority governments, and two which are mortal foes and would never work together in a coalition. In this jurisdiction, governance is impossible, because the two opposition parties tank the government at the first possible opportunity after the election. Clearly under the rules, no abuse of procedure occurs here, it is "legitimate". But it is not necessary.

So then necessity emerges from something other than capacity to act under the rules, but rather some level of public judgment. We might consider necessity to be an optics issue, and for Horwath the optics were terrible as she refused an NDP-friendly budget offer to generate a result that would result in less NDP-friendly budgets. At the very least that's a bad gamble in hindsight, even if you reject the idea that it was unnecessary at the time.

I agree with your point that a party leader has to be able to make this call, and that by definition if we measure necessity solely by the results. If the only substance of the claim that the election was unnecessary was "hindsight is 20/20", then it does seem like a fairly weak claim.

For me, the reason why the election was unnecessary was the following:
- The provincial legislature had the means to investigate and address the corruption issues internally, so there is no particular reason to suggest that this required public deliberation. Neither opposition party proposed strengthening mechanisms for addressing corruption within government or increasing transparency or disclosure laws. So I have no confidence that this was an election that occurred because internal tools for dealing with this did not or could not work.
- Because many of the corruption issues were legacy issues inherited by the current OLP, addressing them during the scheduled election next year did not seem like a substantially worse option than addressing them now. I at no point heard any justification from either party as to how or if the election process itself stopped corruption. The question always seemed more framed about punishment for past corruption.
- Other than the corruption, there were no substantive issues discussed during this election until Hudak floated a dumb idea and made the election about that dumb idea. So at best this election was simply a referendum on Wynne's ability to lead an effective government that got hijacked by a referendum on whether or not firing people is the best way to create jobs. Although Horwath could not have anticipated the PC stupidity (well, I mean, I guess she could have, really, but maybe not the exact dimension of it), she certainly could have ensured that when she caused the election it was because she had a positive vision of governance built on actual real policy ideas.

So again, I believe a leader of an opposition party has every right to trigger an election. But as a matter of explaining why they did, they ought to make a stronger case than Horwath did. I thus viewed the election as unnecessary at the time, and the outcome both in terms of the seats and in terms of seat distribution and relatively similar popular vote distribution even suggests that the public got nothing from it.

That the verdict of the people supported the Liberals doesn't make it unnecessary. If someone is found not guilty in a court of law, was the trial a waste of money?

This is an apt analogy. If we continue the court analogy, in most (all?) jurisdictions in Canada, if you have a civil action against another party, and they offer you a settlement, but you reject the settlement and insist on a trial... if you win, but win less than what you were originally offered, you are typically expected to pay some or all of the other party's legal fees as a punishment for forcing an unnecessary trial. In Ontario it's rule 49. If we thread the analogy back to the election, a person who invites an election when they had a reasonable "offer" on the table should, yes, be punished for declining it.

We might also look at criminal trials and say that there are, in fact, many cases where a person is found not guilty and the trial was deemed a waste of money, because prosecutorial discretion was not used wisely based on the available evidence. So there are in a sense at least three "tiers" to how we respond: the trial was a waste money because the accused was clearly not guilty; the accused was found not guilty but the prosecutor still did right by trying to prosecute; or the accused was found guilty. Alternatively, we might admonish the prosecutor for aiming for higher charges when the system incentivizes plea deals and the public would have better been served by a plea deal. Again I think you can see how the parameters of my analogy here thread back to this situation.

 

[Pakkidis]

Other than the corruption, there were no substantive issues discussed during this election until Hudak floated a dumb idea and made the election about that dumb idea. So at best this election was simply a referendum on Wynne's ability to lead an effective government that got hijacked by a referendum on whether or not firing people is the best way to create jobs. Although Horwath could not have anticipated the PC stupidity (well, I mean, I guess she could have, really, but maybe not the exact dimension of it), she certainly could have ensured that when she caused the election it was because she had a positive vision of governance built on actual real policy ideas.

That is somewhat true which makes it all the more surprising that liberals dominated the way they did. I think the election was more about the rejection of Tim Hudak more so than the acceptance of Wynne.

I really wanted the NDP to do better. They had a perfect opportunity to capitalize on this and they failed.

 

[jstripes]

Imagine if Tory becomes Mayor of Toronto lol

Unless Ford actually drops out of the race, there's not much chance of that.

Regardless who is winning, it is probably better to get a job in Alberta anyways - unless Tim Hudek can magically conjure oil out of thin air.

If that's the life you wanna live. Personally, I don't find Fort McMurray all that appealing. Plus, for all the money you're making, they're gouging on rent and everything else.

But that might not have energized the base. They needed an incredibly riled up base. Heck that's what got Harris elected really. And really I think the footnote on Hudak has already been written. "He really really wanted to be Harris 2.0"

It's the same idea as Rob Ford. At this point he's so focused on his base that he has nothing else going for him.

 

[Simon Belmont]

Joe Fontana convicted of fraud

Good f'n riddance. I can't wait for the next disaster the people of London will surely usher into office.

 

[Azih]

There's been rumblings that the RCMP budget is going to be cut something like 10-15% for next year. Not sure if that's just for Federal policing, or for the whole organization.

Either way, I look forward to trying to solve crimes and arrest bad guys from sitting in the office at my computer screen for the next year. :-/

Come Hell or High Water (and we'll get both god damn global warming) Harper will have his balanced budget to campaign on.

 

[Entropia]

Joe Fontana convicted of fraud

Good f'n riddance. I can't wait for the next disaster the people of London will surely usher into office.

Hopefully he steps down, but there's really nothing that can be done to remove him from office.

 

[Simon Belmont]

Hopefully he steps down, but there's really nothing that can be done to remove him from office.

I'm probably naive, but I would think being convicted of three counts of fraud would compel a person to step down, or at least not run again.

 

[Boogie]

Joe Fontana convicted of fraud

Good f'n riddance. I can't wait for the next disaster the people of London will surely usher into office.

Nice! Well done to my brothers at the London Detachment.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

Ughhh, can't even think about HSRs or DRLs today. 42% increase in electricity in the next 5 years.

2003-2007 = Ontario becomes have-not province, begs for more welfare.
2007-2011 = Ontario destroyed, green energy scam skyrockets electricity prices, 500,000 manufacturing jobs gone
2011-2014 = 200,000 full-time jobs gone, brain drain reaches Maritime levels, debt approaches Quebec levels
2014-2018 = ??? 42% increase in electricity prices, private sector jobs still running away in droves

I don't see how anyone can be excited for this at all. Ontario made the wrong choice. From nation-builder to welfare queen, it is not the Ontario my parents got to grow up in

 

[Stumpokapow]

Ughhh, can't even think about HSRs or DRLs today. 42% increase in electricity in the next 5 years.

2003-2007 = Ontario becomes have-not province, begs for more welfare.
2007-2011 = Ontario destroyed, green energy scam skyrockets electricity prices, 500,000 manufacturing jobs gone
2011-2014 = 200,000 full-time jobs gone, brain drain reaches Maritime levels, debt approaches Quebec levels
2014-2018 = ??? 42% increase in electricity prices, private sector jobs still running away in droves

I don't see how anyone can be excited for this at all. Ontario made the wrong choice. From nation-builder to welfare queen, it is not the Ontario my parents got to grow up in

Yes, we know.

 

[DopeyFish]

Ughhh, can't even think about HSRs or DRLs today. 42% increase in electricity in the next 5 years.

2003-2007 = Ontario becomes have-not province, begs for more welfare.
2007-2011 = Ontario destroyed, green energy scam skyrockets electricity prices, 500,000 manufacturing jobs gone
2011-2014 = 200,000 full-time jobs gone, brain drain reaches Maritime levels, debt approaches Quebec levels
2014-2018 = ??? 42% increase in electricity prices, private sector jobs still running away in droves

I don't see how anyone can be excited for this at all. Ontario made the wrong choice. From nation-builder to welfare queen, it is not the Ontario my parents got to grow up in

Countries don't grow with conservative ideals, FYI.

This is how it has always been, this is how it will always remain.

 

[equippedwithtowel]

Ughhh, can't even think about HSRs or DRLs today. 42% increase in electricity in the next 5 years.

2003-2007 = Ontario becomes have-not province, begs for more welfare.
2007-2011 = Ontario destroyed, green energy scam skyrockets electricity prices, 500,000 manufacturing jobs gone
2011-2014 = 200,000 full-time jobs gone, brain drain reaches Maritime levels, debt approaches Quebec levels
2014-2018 = ??? 42% increase in electricity prices, private sector jobs still running away in droves

I don't see how anyone can be excited for this at all. Ontario made the wrong choice. From nation-builder to welfare queen, it is not the Ontario my parents got to grow up in

I hear the Toronto sun is hiring.

 

[Zombie James]

I don't see how anyone can be excited for this at all. Ontario made the wrong choice.

Off the top of my head...

• Badly needed transit projects (and upgrades like GO electrification) will get built. Congestion costs the GTA economy $11B annually.
• College and university students get to keep their 30% tuition discount.
• Full-day kindergarten remains. This will not only save families daycare costs, but studies show positive effects for children in virtually all areas.
• Minimum wage increases will most likely continue.
• Ranked ballots will come to municipalities. Hudak was the only leader against it.

 

[Azih]

Ranked ballots that aren't PR are a horror show and no better than FPTP.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

Countries don't grow with conservative ideals, FYI.

This is how it has always been, this is how it will always remain.

Ontario was already built, and no thanks to the current gang. All the hard work the previous generations put in went to rubble now. It wasn't always like this and it didn't have to be like this.

Off the top of my head...

• Badly needed transit projects (and upgrades like GO electrification) will get built. Congestion costs the GTA economy $11B annually.
• College and university students get to keep their 30% tuition discount.
• Full-day kindergarten remains. This will not only save families daycare costs, but studies show positive effects for children in virtually all areas.
• Minimum wage increases will most likely continue.
• Ranked ballots will come to municipalities. Hudak was the only leader against it.

• It didn't happen in 2003-2014 what makes you think it will happen now with our $15 billion deficit? ($16 billion now I think, RBC redid it's GDP projection and Ontario is down 0.3%)
• University prices have increased 80% from 2003 to 2014. All educated youth are moving to Alberta or back to Hong Kong, and the emigration rates are only increasing, so this is a lost cause.
• URL="http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/education/full-day-kindergarten-offers-no-academic-advantage-study-says/article17715532/"]]Full-day kindergarten is the second biggest scam in town[/URL] after Green Energy Act. Your propoganda site doesn't prove anything; who do you think is running the Government of Ontario website?
• Minimum wage is down from 2009 and it will stay that way. Not sure why you would think it's going to increase. She didn't even promise that.
• Introduced by Jonah Schein, the former NDP MPP for Davenport (who also introduced the bill to ban unpaid internships), who lost to same random chick in Willowdale. Something is definitely wrong with Toronto water.

 

[BigJonsson]

Minimum wage is down? What?

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

Minimum wage is down? What?

It was $11.27 in 2009 adjusting for inflation, today is $11.00 and it's going to stay at $11.00 for the foreseeable future.

 

[BigJonsson]

Liberals said they would tie it to inflation, we'll see

 

[maharg]

Well, first, let it be noted that I didn't support or vote for the OLP in this election. But really how I voted is neither here nor there when it comes to discussing this issue, if you assume that I'm posting in good faith and not being a hack. I'm also not particularly happy with the results last night.

I'll try to reply to the rest in more detail later, but I want to be clear I was not accusing you (or anyone else using the term) of being a party hack or having any preference for any particular party. The term has obtained broader use, but its core and essence remains, as it was conceived, as a device for suppression of the legitimacy of the electoral process (and by extension vote suppression). People who say it now do not intend to be propagating that core, but it is one of the means by which it propagates none the less.

To narrow my claim down, it's an inherently conservative, anti-democratic notion and it disturbs me that I see the line being used by people who I don't think believe in conservative, anti-democratic ideals because I think they're doing the devil's work for him, so to speak.

 

[Zombie James]

It didn't happen in 2003-2014 what makes you think it will happen now with our $15 billion deficit? ($16 billion now I think, RBC redid it's GDP projection and Ontario is down 0.3%)

Currently under construction:

The York-University subway expansion.
The Eglinton LRT.
The Union Station revitalization.
York's Viva rapid transit project.
GO's Mississauga Transitway project.

There are probably more.

University prices have increased 80% from 2003 to 2014. All educated youth are moving to Alberta or back to Hong Kong, and the emigration rates are only increasing, so this is a lost cause.

Citation needed.

URL="http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/education/full-day-kindergarten-offers-no-academic-advantage-study-says/article17715532/"]]Full-day kindergarten is the second biggest scam in town[/URL] after Green Energy Act. Your propoganda site doesn't prove anything; who do you think is running the Government of Ontario website?

My "propaganda site" is a study put together by Queen's University and McMaster University. Direct link to the PDF since it seems like you missed it. Also, from your link:

Full-day kindergartners did fare significantly better in their vocabulary and their ability to control their behaviour and engage in play-based tasks, important elements when it comes to child development, the study showed.

And there are also the child care savings.

Minimum wage is down from 2009 and it will stay that way. Not sure why you would think it's going to increase. She didn't even promise that.

History of the Ontario minimum wage:

2005: $7.45
2006: $7.75
2007: $8.00
2008: $8.75
2009: $9.50
2010: $10.25
2014: $11.00

Ontario has the highest minimum wage in Canada. From the Liberal platform:

Increase the minimum wage to $11 on June 1, 2014 and index it to inflation after that

Introduced by Jonah Schein, the former NDP MPP for Davenport (who also introduced the bill to ban unpaid internships), who lost to same random chick in Willowdale. Something is definitely wrong with Toronto water.

Doesn't matter who it was introduced by. The Liberals say they'll implement it, Hudak said he wouldn't.

 

[Stumpokapow]

The term has obtained broader use, but its core and essence remains, as it was conceived, as a device for suppression of the legitimacy of the electoral process (and by extension vote suppression). People who say it now do not intend to be propagating that core, but it is one of the means by which it propagates none the less.

Oh, fair call. I just prefaced to excuse myself from any debate about motives. Like you, I accept that sometimes people get co-opted into arguing against their own best interests. And I seem to remember us being on the same side of a previous discussion about the legitimacy of coalition governments (in that we both agreed they were legitimate), so certainly I agree that people who whine that rules-legal behaviour intended to increase democratic accountability is "unfair" are being nearsighted. Maybe it wasn't coalition governments, maybe it was something on electoral reform. Whatever the case, we're good and I see your perspective on this in the general case. An opposition leader does have the prerogative to bring down the government and doing so is a legitimate act.

To narrow my claim down, it's an inherently conservative, anti-democratic notion and it disturbs me that I see the line being used by people who I don't think believe in conservative, anti-democratic ideals because I think they're doing the devil's work for him, so to speak.

I view non-confidence motions (or by extension, choosing not to support a confidence motion; I think the distinction between the two is more a matter of optics than any real difference) as a prerogative of the opposition. I simply view the prerogative as one that ought to be exercised with discretion and wasn't this time around.

One of the reasons why I included the reductio ad absurdum example was to verify that we're on the same page that there are hypothetical examples where the claim that defeating a government is "unnecessary" could be legitimate, and so we could narrow the scope of our disagreement to this specific case and discuss what made this case necessary, valid, whatever word you wanted to use. If that was your intent all along, then let's just talk Ontario 2014. Or we can stay in the general case if you're not comfortable with how I've set it up.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

Liberals said they would tie it to inflation, we'll see

That's the same as having no increase.

Currently under construction:

The York-University subway expansion.
The Eglinton LRT.
The Union Station revitalization.
York's Viva rapid transit project.
GO's Mississauga Transitway project.

*Waste of money that will make the gridlock situation worse in the future
*The only good thing they have done, and even that is severely mangled and worse from its original form.
*Lol what. That's not going to do anything for gridlock or economic productivity. You are padding your list.
*Paid for by York Region residents.
*What is that.

Citation needed.

Canada's population continues to go Westward

Ontario's tuiton costs highest in the country, in a word, "terrifying".

My "propaganda site" is a study put together by Queen's University and McMaster University. Direct link to the PDF since it seems like you missed it. Also, from your link:



And there are also the child care savings.

Your own report says that kids lose social and math skills but only gain in reading. And all those reading skill gains are erased after a few years in grade school.

Even private daycare is cheaper than full-day kindergarten. I can get behind public daycare, not daycare for 3 hours a day for a certain segment of the population with $40/hr daycare workers.

History of the Ontario minimum wage:

2005: $7.45
2006: $7.75
2007: $8.00
2008: $8.75
2009: $9.50
2010: $10.25
2014: $11.00

Ontario has the highest minimum wage in Canada. From the Liberal platform:

All the 2007-2010 increases are thanks to Cheri DiNovo, the NDP MPP for Parkdale-High Park.

After that, the minimum wage decreased. http://www.bankofcanada.ca/rates/related/inflation-calculator/

 

[equippedwithtowel]

That's the same as having no increase.

Then so is increasing it by incremental amounts only after it seems lacking.

You can't win every battle.

 

[AlphaTwo00]

Ontario's tuiton costs highest in the country, in a word, "terrifying".

In the same article:

While many note that administrators’ salaries have continued to increase, at least some student advocates acknowledge it’s hard to blame universities for tuition increases.

Per-student funding in the province is about 25 per cent below the national average, according to research by the Canadian Federation of Students-Ontario.

Bringing Ontario back in line is a big bear for the government to wrestle, said Michael Yam, a researcher at the federation.

“Just to catch up with the rest of the country, it’s a fairly large investment,” he said. “That’s part of the problem. We’ve actually fallen behind over the years because we’ve ignored this.”

Oh wait, does that really mean, gasp, other provinces are handing out more money to cover the rising tuition cost? Does that mean that, despite the Liberals attempting to cap the tuition, they are still not subsidizing enough compared to other provinces, leading to the increase cost?

More importantly, that and the other article does not even point to the idea of "all young people are moving back to Alberta or Hong Kong". Honestly, the "Hong Kong, and the emigration rates are only increasing, so this is a lost cause." line rubs me all the wrong way.

a) The idea of Hong Kong immigrants moving here for education and leaving as a "talking point" is maybe 5-10 years late. It feels like one of those scare tactic talking points about how "those damn immigrants are here and stealing all our university spots".
b) "emigration rates are increasing, so this is a lost cause"? - This feels like you're slamming the idea of emigration all together. It reeks of racist undertones.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

Then so is increasing it by incremental amounts only after it seems lacking.

You can't win every battle.

Well I am personally not a huge fan of minimum wage increases but if you're going to say the Liberals increased it you can't say that without taking inflation into account. It is being intelectually dishonest. It has not increased since 2010, and it won't increase in the next 4 years. That's an 8 year freeze on minimum wage.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

dp

In the same article:
Oh wait, does that really mean, gasp, other provinces are handing out more money to cover the rising tuition cost? Does that mean that, despite the Liberals attempting to cap the tuition, they are still not subsidizing enough compared to other provinces, leading to the increase cost?

More importantly, that and the other article does not even point to the idea of "all young people are moving back to Alberta or Hong Kong". Honestly, the "Hong Kong, and the emigration rates are only increasing, so this is a lost cause." line rubs me all the wrong way.

a) The idea of Hong Kong immigrants moving here for education and leaving as a "talking point" is maybe 5-10 years late. It feels like one of those scare tactic talking points about how "those damn immigrants are here and stealing all our university spots".
b) "emigration rates are increasing, so this is a lost cause"? - This feels like you're slamming the idea of emigration all together. It reeks of racist undertones.

Uhh, that's the whole point. PSE costs are meant to increase, more people are going to university and that's good for the economy. What's not good for the economy is high student debt, which the Liberals are a huge fan of.

That's what the emigration article is for. I linked two separate articles, one on tuition costs and one on interprovincial migration. And I never complained about immigrants taking university spots. Heck, I am complaining that there are not enough educated immigrants in Ontario. Look at the article I linked. Ontario used to get 60% of immigrants coming to Canada, now it gets 40%. They are all moving away to Alberta and BC or many are just not coming at all.

 

[Zombie James]

*Waste of money that will make the gridlock situation worse in the future

York University students will probably disagree.

*The only good thing they have done, and even that is severely mangled and worse from its original form.

Nothing to do with the provincial government and everything to do with Rob Ford.

*Lol what. That's not going to do anything for gridlock or economic productivity. You are padding your list.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/0...uction-worth-1b-to-ease-congestion-by-50-ttc/

*Paid for by York Region residents.

http://www.metrolinx.com/en/projectsandprograms/transitexpansionprojects/york_viva.aspx

These projects are part of Metrolinx's $1.4 billion commitment to improving transit in York Region, just one component of a larger $9.5 billion commitment in the priority projects of Metrolinx's Regional Transportation Plan, The Big Move.

*What is that.

http://gotransit.com/public/en/improve/Mississauga_BRT.aspx

GO Transit bus riders and MiWay passengers will benefit from the Transitway, a dedicated corridor parallel to Highway 403 from Winston Churchill Boulevard to Erin Mills Parkway, and the existing bus-only lane on Highway 403, connecting to Mississauga’s downtown core via Centre View Drive and Rathburn Road. The Transitway will continue east from Hurontario Street along the dedicated corridor parallel to Highway 403, Eastgate Parkway and Eglinton Avenue to Renforth Station.

When fully complete in 2016, the 18-kilometre Transitway will have 12 stations beginning at Winston Churchill Boulevard in the west and ending at Renforth Drive in the east. MiWay and GO Transit will service the Transitway as well as the TTC at Renforth.

The Mississauga Transitway is being developed in partnership with the Government of Canada, the Province of Ontario, GO Transit (a division of Metrolinx) and the City of Mississauga.

 

[equippedwithtowel]

Well I am personally not a huge fan of minimum wage increases but if you're going to say the Liberals increased it you can't say that without taking inflation into account. It is being intelectually dishonest. It has not increased since 2010, and it won't increase in the next 4 years. That's an 8 year freeze on minimum wage.

And you're accusing me of intellectual dishonesty

 

[gabbo]

Waste of money that will make the gridlock situation worse in the future

I see you've never been north of Shepard after 4pm on a weekday.