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[MiyazakiHatesKojima]

I am sure by now everyone knows none of these reviews matter, the only thing that matters is MiyazakiHatesKojima shill seal of approval when it comes to a Kojima game.

This is factual.

 

[DeepEnigma]

This is factual.

Might as well be, the whole thread is full of fanatical mental gymnastics all the way down to subscribing to SJW rhetoric of “feelings equal facts”.

Ironic, eh?

 

[SAF0001]

wow.. So.. Something new, amazing story, amazing world. But Shitty gameplay and alot of repetitiveness.
wtf.. This is Kojima, who made the gameplay of metal gear 5 wich was amazing. Maybe he is forgetting gameplay first like nintendo.. Dam.. Was kinda hoping it would get a high metacritic lol

I think we all need to try it ourselves, because a strong atmosphere, storytelling and music may change our filling about gameplay from negative to positive side.

 

[MiyazakiHatesKojima]

I think we all need to try it ourselves, because a strong atmosphere, storytelling and music may change our filling about gameplay from negative to positive side.

Thank you.

 

[Phase]

I think we all need to try it ourselves, because a strong atmosphere, storytelling and music may change our filling about gameplay from negative to positive side.

Good post. These things shape our experience tremendously. Music for me has always had the biggest impact on my experience. I'm especially looking forward to seeing how it mixes into the gameplay and the world's atmosphere.

 

[BlackTron]

Didn't RDR2 have dull gameplay too?

A diamond-studded piece of shit is still a shit.

 

[MiyazakiHatesKojima]

A diamond-studded piece of shit is still a shit.

Goofie ass post.

 

[FranXico]

I think a lot of the gameplay choices probably are there to "make the player go through the pains of the main character". It's like Sam Bridge's fatigue and relief when reaching a destination is supposed to translate to fatigue and relief of the player.

Back in the day, we had to bash triangle to survive torture in one part of the game.
Now, we have to hold the trigger buttons to keep balance while carrying the cargo throughout the entire game.

Kojima just went all the way out on this one, for better or for worse.

 

[ethomaz]

Of course it is, and so it should be. How many times over the years have certain games been blasted for having amazing graphics and sound, but shit gameplay, yet somehow it should be different with this game, because of 'reasons'.

I never saw that... sorry.

The Witcher 3, FFXV, etc all have shit gameplay...

 

[ethomaz]

I don't wont to spoil anything so i'll try to be as careful as i can and please forgive my english.

There are two chapters in the whole game that are completely based on shooting with MGS style gameplay. Unfortunately these chapter are extremely short and in my opinion together with the ending chapter are the best parts of the game.

The rest of the game consists of mainly transferring stuff between locations. The orders, act as the game's quests. It heavily relies in micro managing the load of your orders, at least at the early game, later on you get vehicles (and if you are online you find them around from other players) so the micromanaging aspect is not much of a problem. The physics are a big issue because they don't actually work. They try to emulate actual vehicle behavior but in the end it works against the player and the terrain is laid out pretty bad.

The problem with the orders is that they don't actually offer anything to the player, besides increasing your relation with the order requester and the terrain on most of these locations is really bad and the vehicles behave strangely.


The maps have certain places where BT's appear and everytime there is an annoying slowdown and animation that plays out to warn you about them, which is useless and breaks the immersion. You can avoid BT's by speedrunning past them so they are not an actual problem. Then you have mules (bad guys) again in certain spots which you can just avoid unless you want to collect the collectible microchips from them.

That seems better than I expected... terrains should be variables and vehicles should be hard to pass over it.

 

[ethomaz]

I would count the gadgets and the weapons if they meant something. I like games having freedom, but they should give you reasons to use the stuff they have. Being completely open does not always works in your favor. I was just using power gloves to punch my way out, or just running past the mules when i needed to steel a collectible from them.

The building aspect is a good idea, like having generators, etc, but generators doesn't cost materials so you can just drop a PCC and have it built. Actually only bridges and shelters cost materials and they aren't really usefull, they just make you lazy, because with a vehicle you can just cross a river, although, a month after the game's release and with players having built enough stuff in the world the game will be different. The problem is the game is not like that at the moment, unless everyong that reviewed it is a fortune teller.

Wow I don't see an interesting online components like that since the awesome World Tendencies of Demon's Souls.

Hype increasing.

 

[davidjaffe]

Arguing AGAINST the statement/idea that 'games must always be fun' is a disingenuous way to try and shut down certain criticisms of certain games.

Very few people actually mean 'a game should always be fun!' What they mean is 'a game should always be engaging'. They know this (although they may not have thought about it enough to articulate it) and those pushing back on them probably know it as well.

Does a game need to be balls to the wall action at all (or any) times to be good? Of course not. Few would argue otherwise.

Unless the game is literally intended to bore the Player's brain for some sort of metaphorical goal (Death Stranding MAY very well fall into this category), no one makes a game with the intention of NOT engaging the brain of the Player. Just like no one makes a movie- even a slow burn art house film- with the goal of making the audience disengage.

TL;DR- I would love for people to stop acting as if 'Games don't always HAVE to be fun!' is some sort of battlecry for those who look at games as MORE than just shoot-em-ups and fast driving arcade experiences.
Most people- and I would argue everyone on this board- already agrees that fun doesn't always have to be the goal. But you want to make a game that isn't engaging? Ok, well THAT is an argument we can have .

Jaffe

 

[FranXico]

Arguing AGAINST the statement/idea that 'games must always be fun' is a disingenuous way to try and shut down certain criticisms of certain games.

Very few people actually mean 'a game should always be fun!' What they mean is 'a game should always be engaging'. They know this (although they may not have thought about it enough to articulate it) and those pushing back on them probably know it as well.

Does a game need to be balls to the wall action at all (or any) times to be good? Of course not. Few would argue otherwise.

Unless the game is literally intended to bore the Player's brain for some sort of metaphorical goal (Death Stranding MAY very well fall into this category), no one makes a game with the intention of NOT engaging the brain of the Player. Just like no one makes a movie- even a slow burn art house film- with the goal of making the audience disengage.

TL;DR- I would love for people to stop acting as if 'Games don't always HAVE to be fun!' is some sort of battlecry for those who look at games as MORE than just shoot-em-ups and fast driving arcade experiences.
Most people- and I would argue everyone on this board- already agrees that fun doesn't always have to be the goal. But you want to make a game that isn't engaging? Ok, well THAT is an argument we can have .

Jaffe

I think I saw you mention in a stream that while you are sure this game won't be for everyone, you are interested in playing it.
What are you expecting to get out of this game?

 

[ethomaz]

H hollowcupra thanks for all the insights even knowing you did not like it what you wrote made me get a better ideia of how the mechanics are really interesting and I have the feeling I will love it.

It looks like a game I dreamed to play.

 

[Phase]

Countdown engaged.

 

[FranXico]

H hollowcupra thanks for all the insights even knowing you did not like it what you wrote made me get a better ideia of how the mecânicas are really interesting and I have the feeling I will love it.

Yes, H hollowcupra thank you for sharing your thoughts. At least you let us know why exactly it didn't work for you.

 

[RAIDEN1]

I wouldn't mind at all, if Kojima's next project was Snatcher 2, or Policenauts 2!!!

 

[Wink]

I think a lot of the gameplay choices probably are there to "make the player go through the pains of the main character". It's like Sam Bridge's fatigue and relief when reaching a destination is supposed to translate to fatigue and relief of the player.

Back in the day, we had to bash triangle to survive torture in one part of the game.
Now, we have to hold the trigger buttons to keep balance while carrying the cargo throughout the entire game.

Kojima just went all the way out on this one, for better or for worse.

Damn, this just reminded me of the tube sequence in MGS4, crawling snake forward with the most vile type of gameplay gaming has to offer, elongated button mashing. I was nearly in fucking tears during that scene and never felt more connected to a character in a game before that.

 

[davidjaffe]

I think I saw you mention in a stream that while you are sure this game won't be for everyone, you are interested in playing it.
What are you expecting to get out of it?

After watching some videos of the game and reading some reviews (including the glowing ones) I have very little interest in this game and truth be told the ONLY reason I'm playing it will be because:

#1- It's Kojima and the guy has earned my curiosity. Even if it sucks, it'll be an interesting kind of suck (at least as long as I can handle playing it)
#2- Because I do a stream that usually focuses on video games, it seems like I wouldn't be doing my job if I wasn't up on the latest stuff the gaming world is chatting about.

But without those reasons I would NEVER pick this game up. It looks and sounds dreadfully dull. I literally saw footage (that was sped up) showing the guy walking/running along a freeway for what must have been 10 minutes of play time. Literally just PUSHING the stick forward and running in a straight line. For ten minutes. Man, I just can't think of why I would willingly want to partake in something like that. For a SEQUENCE? Sure. For a section where I am being asked to metaphorically experience life thru the eyes of the character? Sure. But doing that for a whole game?!? No thank you. Not for me .

Jaffe

 

[Phase]

I hope everyone's getting ready for the hike. I know I am.

 

[KOMANI]

I wouldn't mind at all, if Kojima's next project was Snatcher 2, or Policenauts 2!!!

That would be cool but will never happen. If you’re looking for more Snatcher, I suggest the Suda51 written prequel, SDATCHER. It stars Hideo Kojima as Little John.

SDATCHER Translation

sdatcher.net

 

[Clear]

I feel like it definitely starts getting into pretentious territory when one has to fall back on "you just don't get it" type rebuttals. I don't want to sound pretentious. Of course fun factor is a huge component of video games, but it is also so subjective and there are the other components to consider as well, more objective analysis tech performance and whatnot.

In my experience when people call things "Pretentious" very often they are just practicing a sort of intellectual inverted-snobbery.

They feel like anyone who appreciates things that they don't, must see them as being culturally impoverished by comparison, and not wanting to feel inferior they lash out to try and take them down "a peg or two". Funnily enough there's a perfect example of this exact thing a page or so back!

Not "getting it" is fine. Some people don't get Jazz, some people don't get classical music or opera. Its *normal* not to be into every style and flavor because there's more than enough variety to go around.

Noone has a monopoly on the good stuff.

The giveaway though is that when these arguments crop up about what is "real" and "important" you never see people arguing this case for things they don't like. Be it haute cuisine or Marvel movies, it always boils down to what they personally happen to value, irrespective of its place on the historical totem-pole of art and culture.

 

[hollowcupra]

H hollowcupra thanks for all the insights even knowing you did not like it what you wrote made me get a better ideia of how the mechanics are really interesting and I have the feeling I will love it.

It looks like a game I dreamed to play.

I'm more than happy to give any info about the game and despite my personal opinion i would never say to someone buy it or not, i'm just adding some more info on the table and give a better idea of how the game works.

 

[vpance]

Rurikhan review, i.e. not a reviewer from a dying website trying to get clicks.

Nice review. Went into detail of all the gameplay elements and flaws of the loop.

Too bad the world is always the same. If he spent another couple years in development I think it could've been a cool mashup of NMS and Tomorrow Children.

 

[FranXico]

After watching some videos of the game and reading some reviews (including the glowing ones) I have very little interest in this game and truth be told the ONLY reason I'm playing it will be because:

#1- It's Kojima and the guy has earned my curiosity. Even if it sucks, it'll be an interesting kind of suck (at least as long as I can handle playing it)
#2- Because I do a stream that usually focuses on video games, it seems like I wouldn't be doing my job if I wasn't up on the latest stuff the gaming world is chatting about.

But without those reasons I would NEVER pick this game up. It looks and sounds dreadfully dull. I literally saw footage (that was sped up) showing the guy walking/running along a freeway for what must have been 10 minutes of play time. Literally just PUSHING the stick forward and running in a straight line. For ten minutes. Man, I just can't think of why I would willingly want to partake in something like that.

Jaffe

It does sound like he went too far this time, doesn't it?
I posted above why I think he made the gameplay loop boring on purpose, but he could shortened the "dull" part quite a bit.
In any case, creators should experiment with their notions of what a game should have or play like. Even if I might not like a game, all games have a right to exist (yes, including Gone Home or Dear Esther).

 

[davidjaffe]

In my experience when people call things "Pretentious" very often they are just practicing a sort of intellectual inverted-snobbery.

They feel like anyone who appreciates things that they don't, must see them as being culturally impoverished by comparison, and not wanting to feel inferior they lash out to try and take them down "a peg or two". Funnily enough there's a perfect example of this exact thing a page or so back!

Not "getting it" is fine. Some people don't get Jazz, some people don't get classical music or opera. Its *normal* not to be into every style and flavor because there's more than enough variety to go around.

Noone has a monopoly on the good stuff.

The giveaway though is that when these arguments crop up about what is "real" and "important" you never see people arguing this case for things they don't like. Be it haute cuisine or Marvel movies, it always boils down to what they personally happen to value, irrespective of its place on the historical totem-pole of art and culture.

I think it's in how it's communicated. Being told I 'don't get' Death Stranding (or Jazz) is elitist in and of itself. From what I know about Death Stranding, I get it. I just don't like it.

Like, I GET why people love Blade Runner and I respect it. But FOR ME it's a very boring, slow movie.

Jaffe

 

[davidjaffe]

It does sound like he went too far this time, doesn't it?
I posted above why I think he made the gameplay loop boring on purpose, but he could shortened the "dull" part quite a bit.
In any case, creators should experiment with their notions of what a game should have or play like. Even if I might not like a game, all games have a right to exist (yes, including Gone Home or Dear Esther).

Agree and by the way, I LOVE walking sims.

Gone Home, What Remains, 30 Flights of Loving, and Firewatch are all in my top 25 games of all time.

 

[JareBear: Remastered]

I legit loathe the term “walking sim.” I think it is far too often used as a generic cookie cutter critique.

 

[Phase]

In my experience when people call things "Pretentious" very often they are just practicing a sort of intellectual inverted-snobbery.

They feel like anyone who appreciates things that they don't, must see them as being culturally impoverished by comparison, and not wanting to feel inferior they lash out to try and take them down "a peg or two". Funnily enough there's a perfect example of this exact thing a page or so back!

Not "getting it" is fine. Some people don't get Jazz, some people don't get classical music or opera. Its *normal* not to be into every style and flavor because there's more than enough variety to go around.

Noone has a monopoly on the good stuff.

The giveaway though is that when these arguments crop up about what is "real" and "important" you never see people arguing this case for things they don't like. Be it haute cuisine or Marvel movies, it always boils down to what they personally happen to value, irrespective of its place on the historical totem-pole of art and culture.

Exactly. If we allow ourselves to be more open to varied experiences, tucking our preconceived notions to the side for a bit, we will only benefit by gaining a better understanding of said thing and ourselves.

I'm liking the shift in this thread atm lol.

 

[davidjaffe]

I legit loathe the term “walking sim.”

I dunno, it works for me. What else would you call it? Ideally you could say 'adventure game' but that term brings with it lots of baggage that isn't relevant to the genre we are talking about.

Experiences, perhaps?

But every game, including MS PAC MAN, is an experience. So that doesn't really work either :/...

 

[FranXico]

I legit loathe the term “walking sim.”

I dunno, it works for me. What else would you call it? Ideally you could say 'adventure game' but that term brings with it lots of baggage that isn't relevant to the genre we are talking about.

Experiences, perhaps?

But every game, including MS PAC MAN, is an experience. So that doesn't really work either :/...

Contemplation game, maybe?

 

[vpance]

It does sound like he went too far this time, doesn't it?
I posted above why I think he made the gameplay loop boring on purpose, but he could shortened the "dull" part quite a bit.
In any case, creators should experiment with their notions of what a game should have or play like. Even if I might not like a game, all games have a right to exist (yes, including Gone Home or Dear Esther).

I wonder if that player actually had to walk 10 mins though. Maybe if he played/planned his mission better he could've gotten a truck or something?

I don't doubt this game is going to be boring in some parts, for anyone. In a game with a guy that delivers packages on foot for most of the journey there's little way around it apart from copious amounts of fast travel.

 

[SAF0001]

I think that people who put gameplay on the first place(and prefer MMO and coop games for example) and all other things on the second - they’ll be disappointed.

And I hope that people who like to be inside the atmospheric game, fill it and think about its story and characters, who ready/want to identify himself with hero on the screen, who agree that gameplay can be a part of picture, they’ll like it.

Anyway, I already ordered the stillbook and waiting the launch day

 

[Piku_Ringo]

A diamond-studded piece of shit is still a shit.

Truer words were never spoken.



But to be fair to the game, at the very least anyone of you guys in here who happen to deliver for, Amazon, Fedex, UPS, hell even UberEats, would likely have a great experience playing this love letter for all that you do for the industry.

 

[molasar]

It is almost like a modern version of Special Delivery: Santa's Christmas Chaos.

 

[ManaByte]

There’s so much product placement in the game I’m shocked they didn’t get UPS.

 

[Bryank75]

I dunno, it works for me. What else would you call it? Ideally you could say 'adventure game' but that term brings with it lots of baggage that isn't relevant to the genre we are talking about.

Experiences, perhaps?

But every game, including MS PAC MAN, is an experience. So that doesn't really work either :/...

One of the guys here said the shooting bits were very short and were the best bits of the game.
As gamers are we tuned to be on that high all the time? Can you glorify the mundane?

Is gaming capable of going beyond ground it has already covered a million times?

I do wonder about these things...

 

[Azelover]

"Fun" is probably not the right word. How about "entertaining"?

 

[Clear]

I think it's in how it's communicated. Being told I 'don't get' Death Stranding (or Jazz) is elitist in and of itself. From what I know about Death Stranding, I get it. I just don't like it.

Like, I GET why people love Blade Runner and I respect it. But FOR ME it's a very boring, slow movie.

Jaffe

I take your point, but I'd argue that communication is a two-way street. Its all in how you interpret "getting it".

Does it have to be a slight? I mean taste is not entirely rational, and I mean taste in both the literal and figurative sense.
Delicious or disgusting, how do you rationalize that personal reaction to a certain flavor?

There's a big ego component to it in my view. We generally don't get into arguments about literal taste (coke vs pepsi), but figuratively and conceptually... whole other story.

We kinda rationalize ourselves into conflicts based on relativism. Yes, you can argue that Jazz and Classical are more advanced forms of music than rock because of complexity, codification of form, historical precedent etc. Which are fair points but not necessarily relevant or meaningful if you prefer attributes that a different form of music emphasizes and/or the culture surrounding that music (dance for example).

The point I'm getting at is we tend to invoke a hierarchy of value, and if we perceive the person with an opposing view to be assuming a position higher on that hierarchy the ego feels the need to assert itself. Trouble is that perception is not necessarily accurate.

Sorry, kinda late here, so not sure if I've articulated my point clearly.

 

[JareBear: Remastered]

Sorry, kinda late here, so not sure if I've articulated my point clearly.

no, very well put

 

[thelastword]

Oh yeah, now suddenly US ign is the gold standard for reviews.

Yes, IGN and Stevivor……...

 

[FMXVII]

It is going to be the bomb.

Like, career suicide for Kojima.

I'll be watching the fallout from a safe distance.

 

[Kabelly]

FKA twigs magnum opus Magdalene releases the same day and I shall be listening to it while I deliver Amazon packages to Geoff. Honestly the more I think about this big budget QWOP game the more excited I am.

 

[Dante83]

Despite the review scores, every reviewer has been consistent in saying that the gameplay, which is the most important thing in ANY game, is not that good, and that the game is a tedious chore. You can have the most amazing story and graphics, but if the gameplay falls short, the game should be viewed as a mediocre game at best. Those high scores and what they have been saying are inconsistent, and to be honest, feels very unprofessional if they can't pull the trigger on giving the game a lower score. At least the metal gear solid series had exhilarating gameplay and nice CQC mechanics. I have never seen anyone praising this game for its gameplay. In fact, they mention that it is simplistic, and the boss battles are easy, so the real "challenge", is the walking back and forth being a delivery man, and that is very concerning. The game isn't fully out, but I am definitely not going to get it day 1. It's best to wait till it falls in price.

 

[Javthusiast]

I have heard plenty people saying they liked the gameplay. It was the same with RDR2. So how about we stop whining back and forth and play for ourselves on launch, later when the game is on sale or never if you have zero interest,

 

[Phase]

I have heard plenty people saying they liked the gameplay. It was the same with RDR2. So how about we stop whining back and forth and play for ourselves on launch, later when the game is on sale or never if you have zero interest,

But where will be take our frustrations of daily life out, if not here?!

 

[davidjaffe]

I have heard plenty people saying they liked the gameplay. It was the same with RDR2. So how about we stop whining back and forth and play for ourselves on launch, later when the game is on sale or never if you have zero interest,

Oh shit- I thought this was a discussion forum where we- you know- discuss video games. Ugh, apologies. Please send me the TOS that explain exactly the topics that have been approved to be discussed here.

Thank you- it's appreciated!

Jaffe

 

[MiyazakiHatesKojima]

I think a lot of the gameplay choices probably are there to "make the player go through the pains of the main character". It's like Sam Bridge's fatigue and relief when reaching a destination is supposed to translate to fatigue and relief of the player.

Back in the day, we had to bash triangle to survive torture in one part of the game.
Now, we have to hold the trigger buttons to keep balance while carrying the cargo throughout the entire game.

Kojima just went all the way out on this one, for better or for worse.

That's exactly what I thought as well!

 

[IamOnline4Real]

I think a lot of the gameplay choices probably are there to "make the player go through the pains of the main character". It's like Sam Bridge's fatigue and relief when reaching a destination is supposed to translate to fatigue and relief of the player.

Back in the day, we had to bash triangle to survive torture in one part of the game.
Now, we have to hold the trigger buttons to keep balance while carrying the cargo throughout the entire game.

Kojima just went all the way out on this one, for better or for worse.

I agree, I love games that push the medium of gaming. Been gaming since the NES, I am 35. The more the game is realistic, the more i enjoy it and become immerse and invested in the character. good character animation is what i love the most. I never fast travel in any games because for me its part of the journey.
I have learned to be patience and try to understand what a game is all about. Not all games should be about gunning and running. diversity is always welcome and that's what gaming is missing these days.

Death Stranding will be successful. I have no doubt. People just need to have an open mind and try it first. We might not like it, but "people" ( I guess they are mostly 12 years old) should stop the nonsense bashing, we clearly see that they ( Kojima Team) put a lot of passion and hard work into that project.

I am tired of lazy cookie cutter games with glitches and so on. The best exemple this year is Ubisoft with Ghost Recon Breakpoint.

When I pay 60$ for a game, I pay to experience and play something that i havent seen before. that's how i value my hard earn money, I never support a company that lazy and only care about my money, like Ubisoft.

I don't personally care about Kojima, i respect him as a creator and a fellow human being. So please people respect the man and his team. they are part of our gaming community. They never put micro transactions everywhere into their games because so far they care about the gaming community, and respect what gaming is all about.

For those who havent played and are happy and want this particular game to fail, you are the Cancer of our gaming community.

 

[MiyazakiHatesKojima]

I agree, I love games that push the medium of gaming. Been gaming since the NES, I am 35. The more the game is realistic, the more i enjoy it and become immerse and invested in the character. good character animation is what i love the most. I never fast travel in any games because for me its part of the journey.
I have learned to be patience and try to understand what a game is all about. Not all games should be about gunning and running. diversity is always welcome and that's what gaming is missing these days.

Death Stranding will be successful. I have no doubt. People just need to have an open mind and try it first. We might not like it, but "people" ( I guess they are mostly 12 years old) should stop the nonsense bashing, we clearly see that they ( Kojima Team) put a lot of passion and hard work into that project.

I am tired of lazy cookie cutter games with glitches and so on. The best exemple this year is Ubisoft with Ghost Recon Breakpoint.

When I pay 60$ for a game, I pay to experience and play something that i havent seen before. that's how i value my hard earn money, I never support a company that lazy and only care about my money, like Ubisoft.

I don't personally care about Kojima, i respect him as a creator and a fellow human being. So please people respect the man and his team. they are part of our gaming community. They never put micro transactions everywhere into their games because so far they care about the gaming community, and respect what gaming is all about.

For those who havent played and are happy and want this particular game to fail, you are the Cancer of our gaming community.

You are officially my new favourite poster