No, at the climax the Doctor summons all his past selves to help seal Gallifrey away and change the outcome of the Time War. Just when you think it's only the twelve of them, Capaldi is shown.
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Doctor Who 50th Anniversary |OT| Splendid Chap, All Of Them
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No, at the climax the Doctor summons all his past selves to help seal Gallifrey away and change the outcome of the Time War. Just when you think it's only the twelve of them, Capaldi is shown.
I thought not all Gallifreyans are Time Lords?
Did we actually see any of them die? I think the deaths were offscreen for budget reasons.
KibblesBits
Member
HAHA, Time Lords and Gallifrey aren't gone. Just like I've wanted for ages.
Good.
This is correct. Time Lords are Gallifreyans who have studied the sciences. They are of a higher caste.
The people running about may not have learned regeneration or may have been plain Gallifreyans.
Good.
This is correct. Time Lords are Gallifreyans who have studied the sciences. They are of a higher caste.
The people running about may not have learned regeneration or may have been plain Gallifreyans.
APZonerunner
Member
If you're killed before you actually regenerate, you're stone dead. If you got hit full-on with a Dalek beam, there'd be no chance to regenerate as it kills you instantly. Even the shot in The Stolen Earth is glancing, very deliberately!
That said, there were people getting blown away by explosions and I did wonder why we weren't seeing a burst of regeneration energy from them. It would've been a particularly lovely and brutal thing to see that happen to somebody, to see them stumble to their feet and begin to regenerate, then get shot and killed properly!
Plus, not all Gallifreyans are Time Lords, yeah. The Sisterhood (who give 8 the potion) are actually descended from Gallifreyans but not Time Lords, iirc.
I thought those guys didn't live in the cities, but I don't know much about Gallifreyan lore.
I think there was this one guy who got killed by debris? You're probably right though.
Yeah it would have been a nice touch wouldn't it? Even if some of these people weren't Time Lords you'd think at least a few of them would try to regenerate. It just is a thing that sort of bothered me.
ChimpanzeeThat
Member
I loved the anniversary, it was superb. Only downside for me was The Zygons, it felt like they were slightly shoehorned into the whole thing but when you think about it, their presence was to show War Doctor how 10 and 11 face things in the future and ultimately make up his mind about where he wants to go.
Moffat nailed it with the final sequences too, dare i say........i thought it was genius.
Moffat nailed it with the final sequences too, dare i say........i thought it was genius.
Controversial opinion: Moffat is the best writer to ever work on Doctor Who (not counting Gaiman). He's not right for showrunner, but his individual scripts are often the best. Blink and The Girl in the Fireplace are just fantastic.
Lynd7
Member
The special was a hard one to write and Moffat delivered. I also find it amusing a fair amount of people on GB are saying it doesn't make sense and they couldn't follow it.
It had to accomplish a lot of things, such as, being a nod to the past, be a standalone episode, allow it to connect to the recent continuity surrounding it without being to hard for newcomers to understand what is happening, and introduce new strands for the future. It does all these things.
Its amazing Moffat was able to pull this off as well as he did.
It had to accomplish a lot of things, such as, being a nod to the past, be a standalone episode, allow it to connect to the recent continuity surrounding it without being to hard for newcomers to understand what is happening, and introduce new strands for the future. It does all these things.
Its amazing Moffat was able to pull this off as well as he did.
hardcastlemccormick
Banned
I loved it. Not sure about reconning, but I mean this is Doctor Who, so whatever. They certainly knocked everything else out of the park.
EDIT: Ah, not reconning, very cleverly done. Excellent.
EDIT: Ah, not reconning, very cleverly done. Excellent.
Exterminieren
Banned
I will be totally astonished if there isn't a proper full-blown Zygon episode or two in the offing. Same with the Ice Warriors. Those costumes cost!
I noticed that that's ANOTHER monster race Nick Briggs has voiced. That's...
The Daleks
The Cybermen
The Nestene Consciousness
The Ice Warriors
The Zygons
The Judoon
And one of the Cabinet Ministers in Children of Earth.
I noticed that that's ANOTHER monster race Nick Briggs has voiced. That's...
The Daleks
The Cybermen
The Nestene Consciousness
The Ice Warriors
The Zygons
The Judoon
And one of the Cabinet Ministers in Children of Earth.
Future Foundation
Member
The BBC have re-released that "Eleven Doctors" image they put out earlier:
No, During the Doctor's freezing of Galifrey. He shows up with all the others.
Oh! I didn't even notice that. Thanks.
So, the special itself, I enjoyed it.
[edit] Also, I really think 11's second costume is not a patch on his first.
I'm not entirely sure about the retcon, though. I feel as though it might have worked better if we'd found out about the darkness in the Doctor's past, but it hadn't been fixed.
[edit] Also, I really think 11's second costume is not a patch on his first.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
Time war is over... Wikipedia war as to if Hurt counts will go on forever....
APZonerunner
Member
In-universe it's not really a retcon as much as it is a reveal. The way this is set up, memory loss and all, implies that this ALWAYS happened, but the Doctor - the current Doctor - is only just learning the truth now.
Four words for ya:
Time Lord Civil War
Rassilon vs The Master for control of Gallifrey
BrokenFiction
Member
Say what you will, the BBC has done this 50th Year Celebration right. Look at all we've gotten:
- The Day of the Doctor
- The Night of the Doctor
- An Adventure in Space and Time
- a forthcoming Christmas special w/ a regeneration
- The Five(ish) Doctors Reboot
Even within those (and I'm sure I've forgotten something), there was so much fan service.
- McGann getting screen time again
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I couldn't be happier with this year. I'm going to be sad to see it pass. Long Live DW.
- The Day of the Doctor
- The Night of the Doctor
- An Adventure in Space and Time
- a forthcoming Christmas special w/ a regeneration
- The Five(ish) Doctors Reboot
Even within those (and I'm sure I've forgotten something), there was so much fan service.
- McGann getting screen time again
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Tom Baker!
Capaldi!
I couldn't be happier with this year. I'm going to be sad to see it pass. Long Live DW.
I suppose that's one way of looking at it; but isn't that just consistent with what happens rather than what they claim happens in the show? They talk about it rewriting their past and their memory loss afterwards is due to time streams being out of sync. 10 remembers earlier, 11 has forgotten because he's had more on his mind.
At least that's what I took.
The Elite
BOSS
The BBC have re-released that "Eleven Doctors" image they put out earlier:
Great.
So pleased they added him.
I've watched the episode three times already. Gets better each time.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
Well that was nice of HUB.
Box of Bunnies
Banned
I made the mistake of going to Gallifrey Base. Someone was complaining about the "all Doctors" scene.
No more.
No more.
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
I need to visit this site sometime. It sounds wonderfully entertaining.
PhoncipleBone
Banned
Finally saw it. So damn good. Just wonderful, wonderful fun. That final scene with Baker was the cherry on top.
Wait, maybe I'm misremembering but what about the Daleks who "survived" the Time War? Do they realize that Gallifrey just disappeared and was saved? I mean, I guess it's still the Doctor's fault, so they'll still have that animosity but yeah. Are there still effects from the end of the Time War?
APZonerunner
Member
Well, 10 doesn't remember at all. There's the vague "I remember this. Almost remember," but even then, one thing established in old Who is the bigger the gaping paradoxical weirdness, the bigger the memory loss associated with it. The Eleventh Doctor vaguely remembers the time portal and the fez, but then is just as shocked to see the War Doctor as the Tenth. So I imagine the memory is fuzzy.
Point is, the way this is set up Eccleston pops into existence, and the very first thing he remembers is standing in that desert shack with the moment in his hands, ready to deploy it. Gallifrey is gone, and so are the Daleks, only dust and wreckage remaining. His memory is blanked. What else is he going to think? He thinks what have I done, spirals into grief, rights a few more post-war wrongs trying to tidy things up, and then meets Rose. Nothing about what we saw tonight changes what happens from 2005 through to now, really - just what they thought happened actually didn't.
One day somebody will scrawl "No More" upon their server rack before setting it ablaze, I'm sure.
Five survive: The three in the Cult of Skaro, who are in the void and placed there earlier in the war and thus oblivious to later events of the war, The Emperor, who falls through time in the aftermath and destruction, and the lone Dalek, who does the same. Davros is extracted long before the final battle, too. One can assume that they never knew. There was a gigantic, explosive flash of light and Gallifrey was gone, and then in the ensuing fire and violence most of the Daleks were destroyed. What else would you assume other than its destruction?
That said, it does raise a question. Were all the Daleks converging on Gallifrey at that point? If so, that's fine. You wouldn't think they'd do that - and considering the method of their destruction, it leaves a question of what happened to the others.
He knows how many children were killed, no?
APZonerunner
Member
The War Doctor regenerates, wakes up as 9, and his final memory is of standing with the moment having made the decision to kill them all. Right before the Moment's consciousness pops into existence manifesting as Rose. Gallifrey is gone, the Daleks are destroyed. His memory is blanking, but he fills in the gaps - he used the moment. The war is over. He ended it. He killed billions. What else is he to think?
When he quotes how many were killed, I don't imagine he counted bodies. But in his 9th or 10th incarnation - likely the 9th - he most certainly looked back at the records, probably stored in the TARDIS Martrix - found out how many children there were on Gallifrey that day, out of terrible guilt. He worked out how many he'd killed with his actions. That's what he's quoting. That's why he's angry the 11th has forgotten it.
As it turns out the number was incorrect, though, as his assumption that in that blank memory he'd killed them all was wrong, as we saw tonight. See what I mean? Wibbly-wobbly and all that.
StalkerUKCG
Banned
Amazing episode. After a weak 7th season the final and the 50th have redeemed it
Only a month till the xmas special. I'm so excited for capaldi it's unreal. The cameo in the 50thmade me squeal a little.
Only a month till the xmas special. I'm so excited for capaldi it's unreal. The cameo in the 50thmade me squeal a little.
I'd say that's a good assumption. They did say this attack was the biggest yet so maybe the Daleks were getting sick of the war and just wanted to 'win' it so they took their largest forces and attacked Gallifrey during the last day of the time war so even without The Doctor doing what he was going to do, it might have still ended that day without intervention (but with the addition of the Daleks being alive to conquer the rest of the universe)
Hmm, I see. That makes sense.
It's also a bit silly that the Time War went from stuff like the Nightmare Child, the Skaro Degredations, the Army of Meanwhiles and Neverweres led by the Could'vebeen King, and the Horde of Travesties to...the Daleks all sitting around Gallifrey shooting lots of lasers at the surface. Hmmm.
Just some quick thoughts:
-The classic intro coming on at the beginning gave me chills. I just wish they played the whole thing. But it was grand and completely unexpected.
-The I.M. Foreman sign, the Coal Hill sign, "I. Chesterton" on the board, and Clara working at the school were all brilliant touches. Once again, only smidgen of disappointment was that I wish Ian was actually in the special.
-Even though I already knew they were coming, loved seeing the Zygons again. Also glad they didn't even try to modify them. Still ridiculous-looking sucky blobs with hissy voices.
-I'm kind of in love with Kate Stewart, and the UNIT girl with Baker's scarf was a nice touch.
-Seeing Tennant's adventure with Good Queen Bess was fun. I was really impressed with the continuity overall, given how monumental the whole thing was. Everything flowed really well with the established Time War chronology, and everything fit together with The End of Time super well.
-Hurt's Doctor was a perfect embodiment of Classic Who in general, and the way Moffat played that off Tennant and Smith was genius. Just a great set-up and very fun to watch.
-Baker. God damn. There were tears. That was beautiful.
Overall, just a phenomenal tribute to the last 50 years. I loved that Moffat didn't feel compelled to make it too twisty and tied to Smith's run. It was a great self-contained story (relative to a standard Moffat mythology-driven episode, anyway) that addressed the past in a very satisfying manner, but also served as a starting point for the future, to the point that I have honestly never been more excited to see where they take the character next. In some ways, it feels like 2005 all over again.
Final point:
-Capaldi. I am so ready.
-The classic intro coming on at the beginning gave me chills. I just wish they played the whole thing. But it was grand and completely unexpected.
-The I.M. Foreman sign, the Coal Hill sign, "I. Chesterton" on the board, and Clara working at the school were all brilliant touches. Once again, only smidgen of disappointment was that I wish Ian was actually in the special.
-Even though I already knew they were coming, loved seeing the Zygons again. Also glad they didn't even try to modify them. Still ridiculous-looking sucky blobs with hissy voices.
-I'm kind of in love with Kate Stewart, and the UNIT girl with Baker's scarf was a nice touch.
-Seeing Tennant's adventure with Good Queen Bess was fun. I was really impressed with the continuity overall, given how monumental the whole thing was. Everything flowed really well with the established Time War chronology, and everything fit together with The End of Time super well.
-Hurt's Doctor was a perfect embodiment of Classic Who in general, and the way Moffat played that off Tennant and Smith was genius. Just a great set-up and very fun to watch.
-Baker. God damn. There were tears. That was beautiful.
Overall, just a phenomenal tribute to the last 50 years. I loved that Moffat didn't feel compelled to make it too twisty and tied to Smith's run. It was a great self-contained story (relative to a standard Moffat mythology-driven episode, anyway) that addressed the past in a very satisfying manner, but also served as a starting point for the future, to the point that I have honestly never been more excited to see where they take the character next. In some ways, it feels like 2005 all over again.
Final point:
-Capaldi. I am so ready.
PhoncipleBone
Banned
My wife and I jumped off the couch a lil bit when they showed Capaldi. So excited to see him in the role.
And do note who the Chairman of Governors is.
Remembrance was also set around the same school. It's become an anniversary thing, arguably.
StalkerUKCG
Banned
Did anyone pick up the reference to "The End of Time"
When the time lords are walking into the war room someone says to the general
"The High Council is in emergency session, they have plans of their own"
To which the general replies
"To hell with the High Council their plans have already failed, Gallifrey still stands in the line of fire"
When the time lords are walking into the war room someone says to the general
"The High Council is in emergency session, they have plans of their own"
To which the general replies
"To hell with the High Council their plans have already failed, Gallifrey still stands in the line of fire"
APZonerunner
Member
It's a shame, I guess, because things like that are always better heard and not said. There's a wonderful quote from RTD where he talks about why he'd put in lines like that -- because as a kid some of his favourite bits of Doctor Who were the bits where it was an unexplained mystery tossed away in dialogue, something he'd sit as a kid and build up as a story in its own right in his head. He'd think up cool names and gift them to the kids. Moffat is a very different kind of fan, much more logical, really. It's best shown in how RTD was happy to leave the mystery about the end of the Eighth Doctor's life a mystery, but Moffat said his own pedantry meant he "needed" to have every single regeneration on tape to be a completionist. That attitude follows through even to the war.
Even so, all those things still happened. Even if tonight's events dampen the lovely thought of what it was in your own personal story... it was sort of worth it, let's face it.
Here's the quote from RTD. Love this:
"Recently, I was asked to proofread Gary Russell's marvellous Doctor Who: The Encyclopedia. And under C for Cruciform, he'd written that this was seized by the Daleks... on Gallifrey! No, I said to him! Oh no! NO!!! And he reacted with genuine surprise, cos he'd honestly assumed from the Master's speech ("I was there when the Dalek Emperor took control of the Cruciform") that this Cruciform, whatever it is, was on the Time Lord's home planet.
Now, in my fevered thoughts, I happen to know exactly what the Cruciform was, and what it did (and it's more terrible than I can say, of a scale and ferocity that's absolutely untransmittable on primetime BBC One, or anywhere, come to that; the Time War wasn't just spaceships and super-zooming battles, it was a disgusting, horrific, temporal hell). And bless Gary, he was lovely about it, and amended the entry.
But I've spent a good while since, thinking that I was wrong. That if Gary thinks it was Gallifreyan, then he's got every right to think so. It's not mine any more! And I've got no plans to show a Cruciform at work - not unless we ever get a Lord of the Rings-size budget (anyone? No? Please? Hush, Phil, be quiet) so nothing's about to appear on screen that would contradict Gary's theory.
And yet, and yet... I'm still glad we changed the entry, cos while you can argue forever about bleedin' canonicity and its sources, the Encyclopedia's status as an official BBC book, sanctioned by the production office, would have given the Gallifrey theory more weight. It would have become that awful thing, a fact. And that's taking it away from you. It's taking away the choice. The Master's fleeting reference to the Cruciform had 7.5 million viewers; that allows for 7.5 million different versions of the Cruciform to exist. And actually... isn't that brilliant? Isn't that the best thing an idea can do, go anywhere, be anything, for anyone?
The Golden Age, the Cruciform, the Fall of Arcadia, the Church of the Tin Vagabond, all of 'em. They're yours. Just as I've treasured my own versions of Ancient Silurian Civilisation, and the origin of the Great Intelligence, and whatever-happened-to-the-rest-of-the-Zygons, for years and years and years. I think that's Doctor Who's greatest legacy - an imagination that goes way beyond the screen, and all the way into your head, where it's yours, forever."
Now, in my fevered thoughts, I happen to know exactly what the Cruciform was, and what it did (and it's more terrible than I can say, of a scale and ferocity that's absolutely untransmittable on primetime BBC One, or anywhere, come to that; the Time War wasn't just spaceships and super-zooming battles, it was a disgusting, horrific, temporal hell). And bless Gary, he was lovely about it, and amended the entry.
But I've spent a good while since, thinking that I was wrong. That if Gary thinks it was Gallifreyan, then he's got every right to think so. It's not mine any more! And I've got no plans to show a Cruciform at work - not unless we ever get a Lord of the Rings-size budget (anyone? No? Please? Hush, Phil, be quiet) so nothing's about to appear on screen that would contradict Gary's theory.
And yet, and yet... I'm still glad we changed the entry, cos while you can argue forever about bleedin' canonicity and its sources, the Encyclopedia's status as an official BBC book, sanctioned by the production office, would have given the Gallifrey theory more weight. It would have become that awful thing, a fact. And that's taking it away from you. It's taking away the choice. The Master's fleeting reference to the Cruciform had 7.5 million viewers; that allows for 7.5 million different versions of the Cruciform to exist. And actually... isn't that brilliant? Isn't that the best thing an idea can do, go anywhere, be anything, for anyone?
The Golden Age, the Cruciform, the Fall of Arcadia, the Church of the Tin Vagabond, all of 'em. They're yours. Just as I've treasured my own versions of Ancient Silurian Civilisation, and the origin of the Great Intelligence, and whatever-happened-to-the-rest-of-the-Zygons, for years and years and years. I think that's Doctor Who's greatest legacy - an imagination that goes way beyond the screen, and all the way into your head, where it's yours, forever."
GodParticle
Member
What an awful special. I had avoided the previews and expected them to somehow weave the prior docs into the story, be it cgi trickery or clever writing. I got neither. What I got was another steaming pile of Moffat writing. Tom's appearance was the only thing that brought a smile to my face. Moffat, please leave Who and never come back...
DrForester
Kills Photobucket
All 13 Doctors working together to save Gallifrey didn't bring a giant grin to your face?
Well, the part we saw was described as the furthest edge of the Time War back in the End of Time. That council member told Rassilon that they were at the edge, but at the center millions were dying every second and resurrected only to die in new more horrible ways or some such thing.
Just finished watching it with my wife and loved it. I've only been watching Doctor Who since the early 80's, but I thought this really captured the fun and camp of Doctor Who. I guess because I didn't follow anything concerning it (ie, interviews, spoilers, etc, etc), I hadn't built up the anniversary to be anything huge, but I walked away very satisfied. Me and my wife were geeking out, especially at the end.
The Elite
BOSS
The Gallifrey fake out is not dissimilar to how the Doctor handled his own "death" in season six. To the rest of the universe it appears to have happened so the effects it has as a fixed point in time remain without anyone actually having to die. Well, except for the Daleks.
Oddly, having the Daleks kills themselves in a crossfire just as Gallifrey disappears reminded me of the conclusion of Blink with the TARDIS dematerializing and the Angels freezing each other in their own gaze.
Moffatt reusing old ideas in inventive new ways?
Oddly, having the Daleks kills themselves in a crossfire just as Gallifrey disappears reminded me of the conclusion of Blink with the TARDIS dematerializing and the Angels freezing each other in their own gaze.
Moffatt reusing old ideas in inventive new ways?
SpeedySwaf
Member
Saw this a couple minutes ago. Wow, this was great. Very fun and excellent all around. Can't wait for the new season
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