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[8bit]

People want to vote the UK out of the EU?

I didn't think the public could make Britain less relevant as a political force after voting a PR man and his towel-folding sidekick in to power to run the country!

They proved me wrong, within 20 years Britain will be known as that floating rock off the coast from France, used to be alright till they drained it of diversity.

It'll be the glorious republic of Scotland & London with some weird crazy bits stuck to it.

 

[Dougald]

If the matter is not wanting to remain in the UK (why not push for reforms instead?) I'm sure there are some palatable alternatives to the UKIP.

Looking at other countries, there are gazillions of smaller parties with similar ends but without the acrid stench of the UKIP. And they are getting votes.

UKIP is actually the most palatable alternative in the UK. Which is why I find it odd that there isn't a competent Euroskeptic party

 

[ComputerMKII]

If the matter is not wanting to remain in the UK (why not push for reforms instead?) I'm sure there are some palatable alternatives to the UKIP.

Looking at other countries, there are gazillions of smaller parties with similar ends but without the acrid stench of the UKIP. And they are getting votes.

The UKIP has UK in its name, why would they want to leave he UK?

 

[JesseEwiak]

If the matter is not wanting to remain in the UK (why not push for reforms instead?) I'm sure there are some palatable alternatives to the UKIP.

Looking at other countries, there are gazillions of smaller parties with similar ends but without the acrid stench of the UKIP. And they are getting votes.

But that'd take time and effort. Much easier just to vote for the people loudly screaming about how we need to throw people out of the country.

 

[Walshicus]

The UKIP has UK in its name, why would they want to leave he UK?

I'm sure he meant EU. But ironically (and mentioned before) it could well be the case that UKIP's ascent in England results in the dissolution of the UK, which would be the first time that party has resulted in any thing positive.

 

[Red Arremer]

Not sure if it was posted, but here's the Austrian results:

Turnout is 39.8%

ÖVP = Conservatives - Lost 3%
SPÖ = Social democrats - Gained .5%
FPÖ = Right wing populists - Gained 8%
Grüne = Greens - Gained 4%
NEOS = Liberals - Entered the parliament

BZÖ = Moderate offshoot of the FPÖ - Lost 4% and dropped out
EUSTOP = Anti-EU coalition between 2 smaller Anti-EU parties
ANDERS = Coalition between several smaller left wing parties (Communists, Pirates, etc.)
REKOS = Christian extremists
Sonstige = Misc.

Source: http://derstandard.at/2000001438935/EU-Wahl-2014-Die-aktuellen-Hochrechnungen#/europe-eu

The main language is German, but it's interactive and lets you pick all the countries (there's a list on the right). The parties are displayed in their native language.

 

[Copons]

Interesting, thanks for the info. Is Grillo's party nationalist? To me he seems like an opportunist that has no actual ideology and his party seems like a new kind that combines (a)politics with marketing.

M5S is a complicated matter, that it would be pretty hard to understand from outside Italy (I have a mile long txt on my desktop that I wanted to post on GAF, but I always assumed no one would really care), and I'm too sleepy to even try to explain it now.

But yes, you're completely right and that is the perfect depiction of what M5S is in theory (and to a great extent in practice too).
But at the same time, there are both the supporters and the leader itself.

While supporters on FB shout stuff that comes from fascism (ie. threatening disagreeing people to be force fed with castor oil, something that Mussolini actually did), Grillo during speeches mixes simple populism with really dreadful concepts.
Like, a web based court to judge condemn politicians and journalists in "collusion" with the current political corrupt power.
Or references to mafia jargon, like, once they get the power, they'll go all "lupara bianca" on old politicians ("lupara bianca" is when mafia kills someone and no one ever find his body anymore, like drowned in water or dipped in concrete).

To this add all the usuals, like immigrants turk err jurbs, euro fucked us up (while apparently no one remembers anymore that soon after the switch to euro, every fucking store doubled their prices to "match" the lira counterpart (conversion rate was 1€ = 2000L, but suddenly prices were 2000L = 2€), and wages just couldn't adapt to that), racism, sexism, homophobia, and plenty of other terribad things that often forget that most of our problems are caused by us (like tax evasion) and it doesn't make any sense to blame it to Europe, or US, or whatever.

(then we could also talk about the "brainwash" or "autogenic training" M5S supporters are subjected and that seems more a cult than a party, but then it would REALLY get too complicated)

 

[Nikodemos]

Why am I not suprised that people who made riots when they had minimum salary cut down to 800 euro after years of living on someone else money is voting far left blaming Germans for not giving them more cash.

Despite my username, I'm not Greek. In fact, I'm not even citizen of a Eurozone country (and I certainly hope we stay as far away from it for as long as legally possible). And yes, Germany is to blame for a whole load of EU problems, including legislative sabotage.

 

[Dougald]

I'm sure he meant EU. But ironically (and mentioned before) it could well be the case that UKIP's ascent in England results in the dissolution of the UK, which would be the first time that party has resulted in any thing positive.

I've traditionally been against Scotland leaving the UK but to be honest if I was voting in the referendum after all their electoral gains, not to mention the mud-slinging from the regular parties, I'd probably be voting "Yes"

 

[MistakenMobius]

For as long as the European Central Bank will remain in Frankfurt, and for as long as the Bundesverfassungsgericht in Karlsruhe will be able to veto anti-austerity measures and legislation adopted at EU-level, things will quite likely not change.

What austerity?
AFAIK, most European governments are running deficit and increasing debt.
If that's austerity, how do we call balanced budget? something that most households and SMP are doing on a yearly basis?

 

[Aldebaran]

I'm pretty happy about Italy's result. Not only the center-left got more than 40% of the votes but the turnout was about 60%. We set an example, for once!

 

[Jucksalbe]

I can't believe he made it in. I guess it's better than voting for right-wing extremists, but still...

 

[anonymous_abc]

I can't believe he made it in. I guess it's better than voting for right-wing extremists, but still...

http://www.taz.de/Martin-Sonneborn-im-Europaparlament/!139197/

„Wir werden versuchen, monatlich zurückzutreten, um 60 Parteimitglieder durchzuschleusen durch das EU-Parlament. Das heißt, dass jedes dieser Mitglieder einmal für 33 000 Euro im Monat sich Brüssel anschauen kann und dann zurücktritt und noch sechs Monate lang Übergangsgelder bezieht. Wir melken also die EU wie ein kleiner südeuropäischer Staat.“

That is pretty sucky and beyond satire... :-/

 

[JesseEwiak]

I'm pretty happy about Italy's result. Not only the center-left got more than 40% of the votes but the turnout was about 60%. We set an example, for once!

When Italy has the best results of a European election, it might be time for the rest of Europe to look at themselves.

 

[Acorn]

Further right England and Wales get dragged the more likely we are to vote Yes.

Good, good.

 

[Pila]

Tsipras did it in Italy, I thought they had no chance and I'm happy to see I was wrong.

Lol Berlusconi, go home.

 

[Red Arremer]

http://www.taz.de/Martin-Sonneborn-im-Europaparlament/!139197/



That is pretty sucky and beyond satire... :-/

Wow that's shitty.

Translation of that bit:
"We will try to step down every month, so that we can run through 60 party members in the EU parliament. That means that each of those members can visit Brussels for 33000 € per month, then step down and gain 6 months of interim payment. In essence, we milk the EU just like a small Southern European country."

(I take that "Southern European country" is implied to be Greece)

 

[Jucksalbe]

That is pretty sucky and beyond satire... :-/

I'm surprised this is even possible.

When Italy has the best results of a European election, it might be time for the rest of Europe to look at themselves.

They do? I don't know that much about Italian politics, but M5S doesn't seem like a party that should have any seats.

 

[Pila]

They do? I don't know that much about Italian politics, but M5S doesn't seem like a party that should have any seats.

Berlusconi and M5S did worse than expected. I guess it's not that bad, I was scared as shit lol.

 

[JesseEwiak]

Berlusconi and M5S did worse than expected. I guess it's not that bad, I was scared as shit lol.

Compared to the rest of Europe, Italy voted as well as they could.

 

[Copons]

They do? I don't know that much about Italian politics, but M5S doesn't seem like a party that should have any seats.

Well, a 100% Tsipras would have been quite unprobable.

Still, we have
40% centre-left (best result ever for a left wing party in Italy),
21% populist idiots,
16% Berlusconi,
6% racist idiots,
4% Tsipras,
4% centre-right.

All in all, I must say it's a good result for Italy, and the best one compared to the other big ones (UK, France, Germany).

Spoiler

of course "best" from a left wing standpoint

Berlusconi and M5S did worse than expected. I guess it's not that bad, I was scared as shit lol.

Me too, shit, the last week I was in perpetual anxiety, so nervous that the inside of my mouth is completely bitten and I've been swallowing lots of blood for days now.

 

[TeddyBoy]

UKIP doing so well is awful to see, my big fear is that the Conservative party will actually have a referendum on the EU and people will vote us out of it. Brtiains already largely irrelevant on the world stage and being out of the EU would make it worse.

 

[Jucksalbe]

Spoiler

of course "best" from a left wing standpoint

Ahh, of course from that standpoint it makes sense. I was more looking at how many extremists or populists made it through, in which case I guess Germany at least had a way more moderate result.

 

[CyclopsRock]

That relationship is itself but a fraction of both our histories. And again, neither side wins from it. Scots don't need the UK and are richer without it, and the English have grown complacent and lack perspective within it.

Why bother Federalising when there is nothing the Federal tier can do that isn't already done at higher levels (EU/NATO)?

Because neither of those institutions form our immigration policy, foreign policy, defence policy etc and nor could any of these things be done at a sub federal level, unlike welfare, education, health, taxation etc.

As for Scotland, I'm not bothered about the result. There are benefits to them leaving and benefits to them staying, but I think it's hard to make the case that they're politically opposite to England when they're basically the same as, say, Liverpool. Furthermore, with the Lib Dems in coalition with the Tories I think it's entirely credible to think that UKIP have taken some of the none - of - the - above vote that used to belong to the yellows; I don't think their reversal in fortune is a coincidence (though of course there are other factors) but that's not really the case in Scotland, as they have the SNP to beat Westminster with. I wonder what'd happen to UKIPs vote up there if there wasn't any SNP?

 

[Funky Papa]

The UKIP has UK in its name, why would they want to leave he UK?

Blah. I meant EU.

 

[Volotaire]

What austerity?
AFAIK, most European governments are running deficit and increasing debt.
If that's austerity, how do we call balanced budget? something that most households and SMP are doing on a yearly basis?

There is a increasing GDP to debt ratio because of the short term austerity. As austerity is adopted, there is a cycle of sharp decline as the potential capacity of GDP and GDP itself falls ( high interest rates means investment falls rapidly), so debt to GDP ratios continually rise with lower tax revenues. This affects the fight against bringing the deficit down, especially in countries that have harboured a culture of tax evasion and corruption. Debts are increasing because of debt needed to service the debt they need to pay in particular countries like Greece. Not that I condone any Keynesian style spending sprees at this current time.

 

[CyclopsRock]

I'd also like to point out that UKIP did indeed start as a small party with the sole goal of leaving the EU. As it gained in popularity, it attracted racists and xenophobes because they typically hold leaving Europe as a high priority. A party is nothing but its members, so how do you avoid this happening again, even if all the non-racist Euroaceptics started voting for a smaller, 'clean' Eurosceptic party?

 

[Tugatrix]

Portugal final results

Not voting: 66.1%

PS 31.45%
PPD/PSD.CDS-PP 27.71%
PCP-PEV 12.68%
MPT 7.15%

B.E. 4.56%
L 2.18%
PAN 1.72%
PCTP/MRPP 1.66%

PND 0.7%
PTP 0.69%
PPM 0.54%
PNR 0.46%Votos: 15013Membros: 0

MAS 0.38%
PPV 0.38%
PDA 0.16%
POUS 0.11%

 

[Kabouter]

I'd also like to point out that UKIP did indeed start as a small party with the sole goal of leaving the EU. As it gained in popularity, it attracted racists and xenophobes because they typically hold leaving Europe as a high priority. A party is nothing but its members, so how do you avoid this happening again, even if all the non-racist Euroaceptics started voting for a smaller, 'clean' Eurosceptic party?

You don't really. I think the main issue is that Euroscepticism in many countries focuses on leaving Europe, which is a very 'absolute' message, that will always appeal to fringe elements. If you have more of a Eurocritical movement, one that doesn't necessarily want to leave Europe, but does want to reform it significantly, and has a more nuanced message along those lines, it is unlikely to appeal in the same way to the lunatic fringe.

 

[Funky Papa]

I'd also like to point out that UKIP did indeed start as a small party with the sole goal of leaving the EU. As it gained in popularity, it attracted racists and xenophobes because they typically hold leaving Europe as a high priority. A party is nothing but its members, so how do you avoid this happening again, even if all the non-racist Euroaceptics started voting for a smaller, 'clean' Eurosceptic party?

Not making irrational immigrantion fears the forefront of the campaign could go a long way. There are plenty of eurosceptic parties, specially on the left, arguing for separation on purely economic issues.

There are honest positions that can be used to argue against the EU. Immigration and "Britishness" are not two of them.

Anti-immigration, homophobic, isolationist, climate change denying... Let's call it like it is, gents: the UKIP is the British Tea Party.

 

[JesseEwiak]

I'd also like to point out that UKIP did indeed start as a small party with the sole goal of leaving the EU. As it gained in popularity, it attracted racists and xenophobes because they typically hold leaving Europe as a high priority. A party is nothing but its members, so how do you avoid this happening again, even if all the non-racist Euroaceptics started voting for a smaller, 'clean' Eurosceptic party?

If the racists already have a party (the UKIP) and include in their party platform their not against certain people being in the country loudly and say basically, "if you think it's the Polish plumbers fault our country is a mess, we don't want your vote," then yeah, I think not many racists would vote for your party.

But, I think it would also show that there's not much of a non-racist anti-EU vote outside of academic settings. Sort of like libertarianism. Popular on the Internet. Not so popular outside of it unless you sprinkle some social conservatism and dog whistle politics into it (hi, Paul Family!).

 

[More Fun To Compute]

The UKIP just shows how generous people in the UK are in that we feel bad that Russia is not a member so we vote for Putin's representatives since they can't.

 

[CyclopsRock]

You don't really. I think the main issue is that Euroscepticism in many countries focuses on leaving Europe, which is a very 'absolute' message, that will always appeal to fringe elements. If you have more of a Eurocritical movement, one that doesn't necessarily want to leave Europe, but does want to reform it significantly, and has a more nuanced message along those lines, it is unlikely to appeal in the same way to the lunatic fringe.

Indeedy. I actually think that the Tories plan of renegotiating our place in the EU and *then* putting it to a referendum is the best bet (personally I'd be likely to be swayed should there be decent reform as a result of those negotiations) but the trouble is I think they just aren't trusted. People don't think the reform will be meaningful (either because a lack of will by the Tories or because they simply won't wring any concessions from the rest of Europe) or that they simply won't hold a referendum and get off on a technicality, which is how many people view the lack of referendum over Lisbon. It's unfortunate because some trust there could utterly scupper the Lib Dems, but it's a problem of their own making.

 

[Kurtofan]

The UKIP just shows how generous people in the UK are in that we feel bad that Russia is not a member so we vote for Putin's representatives since they can't.

UK and France will make for great allies for Putin.

Putin just has to wait a few years for the EU to disband and he can swoop in in Eastern Europe.

 

[Funky Papa]

UK and France will make for great allies for Putin.

Putin just has to wait a few years for the EU to disband and he can swoop in in Eastern Europe.

On that note, I'm glad that Podemos rocked the Spanish map, but the way the local leftist parties side with Putin just because America and Merkel are the only alternatives in their eyes makes me feel icky...

 

[Volotaire]

Indeedy. I actually think that the Tories plan of renegotiating our place in the EU and *then* putting it to a referendum is the best bet (personally I'd be likely to be swayed should there be decent reform as a result of those negotiations) but the trouble is I think they just aren't trusted. People don't think the reform will be meaningful (either because a lack of will by the Tories or because they simply won't wring any concessions from the rest of Europe) or that they simply won't hold a referendum and get off on a technicality, which is how many people view the lack of referendum over Lisbon. It's unfortunate because some trust there could utterly scupper the Lib Dems, but it's a problem of their own making.

There would be a strong backlash from Tory backbenchers if tthe moderate Tories alongside the cabinet and Cameron do not provide a full referendum. Given the number of challenges to his leadership already (although small), that could be quite costly to Cameron, given he leads the next Conservative and likely UKIP coalition.

 

[CyclopsRock]

Not making irrational immigrantion fears the forefront of the campaign could go a long way. There are plenty of eurosceptic parties, specially on the left, arguing for separation on purely economic issues.

There are honest positions that can be used to argue against the EU. Immigration and "Britishness" are not two of them.

Anti-immigration, homophobic, isolationist, climate change denying... Let's call it like it is, gents: the UKIP is the British Tea Party.

If the racists already have a party (the UKIP) and include in their party platform their not against certain people being in the country loudly and say basically, "if you think it's the Polish plumbers fault our country is a mess, we don't want your vote," then yeah, I think not many racists would vote for your party.

But, I think it would also show that there's not much of a non-racist anti-EU vote outside of academic settings. Sort of like libertarianism. Popular on the Internet. Not so popular outside of it unless you sprinkle some social conservatism and dog whistle politics into it (hi, Paul Family!).

My point was that these things become part of the policy because of the members that join, not the other way around. Any party that doesn't have an autocratic leadership will inevitably shift its policies to those with popular support amongst its members. The only way it'd work is if you have the CyclopsRock Party wherein I make all the policies and if anyone doesn't like it, they can vote for someone else. But how effective do you think that'd be? I'd get the vote of me and, because she's nice, probably my mum. Who else? Who'd join a party in which they have no say? Even small things like local party groups selecting local candidates means, if you have a large group of 'bad apples' in your party, mean you have mutters running for office at a low level.

My whole point isn't that UKIP have those posters to attract racists, it's that they have those posters because their very raison d'etre attracts racists.

 

[CyclopsRock]

There would be a strong backlash from Tory backbenchers if tthe moderate Tories alongside the cabinet and Cameron do not provide a full referendum. Given the number of challenges to his leadership already (although small), that could be quite costly to Cameron, given he leads the next Conservative and likely UKIP coalition.

I agree. And personally I'm convinced that we would get one, come 2017 should he be PM, but I don't blame others for not trusting him.

I wonder what'd happen if we get a minority Tory government in 2015 and no one has a majority by 2017? Convention dictates that the will of the people represented by a referendum is respected by all parties irrespective of their own views, but the very existence of a referendum relies on an act of parliament in the first place, which I can't see the LDs and labour supporting if Cameron doesn't have a mandate via a majority...

 

[ICKE]

Just so you know the so called moderate Eurosceptic from Finland who was elected has also been convicted for trying to incite violence towards minorities.

He has also written how progressive women should be the ones raped since they support lax immigration laws, how Muslims are part of a pedophile cult and how it would be good for Greece to go back to a ruthless junta. But it's fine since he's just trying to make Europe a better place, via supporting traditional family values, stop being so intolerant against the right wing candidates.

See these political parties can try to brand themselves by using positive messages but when you take one good look through the veil you start to find shady individuals and a barrage of hateful rhetoric.

 

[JesseEwiak]

My point was that these things become part of the policy because of the members that join, not the other way around. Any party that doesn't have an autocratic leadership will inevitably shift its policies to those with popular support amongst its members. The only way it'd work is if you have the CyclopsRock Party wherein I make all the policies and if anyone doesn't like it, they can vote for someone else. But how effective do you think that'd be? I'd get the vote of me and, because she's nice, probably my mum. Who else? Who'd join a party in which they have no say? Even small things like local party groups selecting local candidates means, if you have a large group of 'bad apples' in your party, mean you have mutters running for office at a low level.

My whole point isn't that UKIP have those posters to attract racists, it's that they have those posters because their very raison d'etre attracts racists.

Well, if my policy position kept on being taken advantage of by racists, maybe I'd rethink either my policy or the way I was making it.

But yes, I think we agree that there's not a significant anti-EU vote that's not either lefties who think the EU is a capitalist's wet dream or racists who want to kick out all the Polish plumbers and Romanian electricians.

However, if you don't even try and choose to just line up with the racists because hey, at least their kinda with you on this one issue, that's when I have a problem.

Oh, also as a side note, "listening to your membership" is how we got the modern Republican Party over here in the US. So, you have fun with that.

 

[Walshicus]

The thing that gives me a little hope with regards UKIP is that I'm not sure there are any more 'big bang' movements of people for their demographic to be concerned about.

We're seeing Polish migration decline, Romanian and Bulgarian migration just never really kicked off (despite the warnings)...

When people start moving back to fast-growing Poland, who's left for UKIP to scaremonger over?

 

[michaelius]

You don't really. I think the main issue is that Euroscepticism in many countries focuses on leaving Europe, which is a very 'absolute' message, that will always appeal to fringe elements. If you have more of a Eurocritical movement, one that doesn't necessarily want to leave Europe, but does want to reform it significantly, and has a more nuanced message along those lines, it is unlikely to appeal in the same way to the lunatic fringe.

Nope that's the face mainstream media want to glue to every eurosceptic party.

Every party which didn't want to follow glorius road to one big european country was asked in interviews why are they going to EU parliament if they are sceptics in Poland in an obvious attemp to scare voters.

 

[JesseEwiak]

Nope that's the face mainstream media want to glue to every eurosceptic party.

Every party which didn't want to follow glorius road to one big european country was asked in interviews why are they going to EU parliament if they are sceptics in Poland in an obvious attemp to scare voters.

Well, speaking just personally, from the outside, the way the current EU is set up is a worst of both worlds. Right now, the EU is set up to mainly profit those already in power, and maybe help those on the margin of lower income countries if they can make it to someplace like France or the UK and find a job.

So, yeah, the endgame for the EU is two things. Either a United States of Europe or a devolvement back into a free trade + maybe no passports needed trade zone. Because right now, speaking as an American looking from the outside, you're in your Articles of Confederation stage, before the Federalist's figured out how to appease the whiny states.

 

[anonymous_abc]

Well, speaking just personally, from the outside, the way the current EU is set up is a worst of both worlds. Right now, the EU is set up to mainly profit those already in power, and maybe help those on the margin of lower income countries if they can make it to someplace like France or the UK and find a job.

So, yeah, the endgame for the EU is two things. Either a United States of Europe or a devolvement back into a free trade + maybe no passports needed trade zone. Because right now, speaking as an American looking from the outside, you're in your Articles of Confederation stage, before the Federalist's figured out how to appease the whiny states.

pretty much.

 

[Kurtofan]

I just realized we never had a third empire.

 

[JesseEwiak]

pretty much.

BTW, spoiler alert, the answer in modern times to that question is massive wealth transfers. Mississippi is our Greece and we can keep on feeding money into it every year. Until the Massachusetts, New York's, and California's of Europe become OK with subsidizing your Nebraska's and Alabama's, the EU is going to continue to be a mess.

 

[Funky Papa]

Well, if my policy position kept on being taken advantage of by racists.

I find this argument a bit disingenuous considering the quality of the party's core.

Not that I'm pointing a finger at you or anything.

 

[anonymous_abc]

BTW, spoiler alert, the answer in modern times to that question is massive wealth transfers. Mississippi is our Greece and we can keep on feeding money into it every year. Until the Massachusetts, New York's, and California's of Europe become OK with subsidizing your Nebraska's and Alabama's, the EU is going to continue to be a mess.

pretty much.

 

[JesseEwiak]

I find this argument a bit disingenuous considering the quality of the party's core.

Not that I'm pointing a finger at you or anything.

I was putting myself in that place. Assuming I'm one of those mysterious voters who don't hate immigrants but want changes to the EU, I'd probably be doing some soul searching if it came up most of my fellow voters against the EU was the mass of humanity that did so.

I'm an American. We don't get to vote our principles. We vote the least worst guy and get on with ruling the world.

 

[lefantome]

On that note, I'm glad that Podemos rocked the Spanish map, but the way the local leftist parties side with Putin just because America and Merkel are the only alternatives in their eyes makes me feel icky...

me too. I can't stand them and I'm glad that they count like 0 in the political scene.