Support NeoGAF

[Heel]

I wrote up a bigger post, but I felt like I was going on a tangent.

I think a large part of the reason why people don't get reactions is heels simply failing to generate heat. If they aren't doing things that make people dislike them then they won't get booed and people won't tune in to finally see when they get what they had coming to them. Now I'm not saying heel's should be booed for every single they do, but their job shouldn't be to win the crowd to their side. A heel should be taunting, mocking, calculating(working a bodypart for example) and sure they could be prideful and bust out a cool move, but only at the right times like when they believe they have the upperhand. It makes no sense for them to try and win the crowd over because that's the faces job. I know you feel there should be shades of grey, but that's only really effective at the right times. See: Shield vs The Wyatts.

Sadly, I think the only real "heat" you can generate with the modern "smart" fan is being perceived as not worthy of their presence based on perceived merit and ability (e.g. Eva Marie, Roman Reigns). I'm open to counter examples, but I can't think of any.

I'm personally at the point where a well-written, well-performed baddie can be appreciated on those merits. I don't perceive there ever being a time where it's so well done that it achieves its intention. I mean, it's a lot like the admiration for a performance in film this point, but just not as good.

 

[Hycran]

Did Mil get his arm broken as a work or kayfabe? I saw the video and it looked pretty realistic...

 

[Fox318]

What if wrestling was real?

Then the Lapsed Fan version of people is the truth

 

[Plywood]

Sadly, I think the only real "heat" you can generate with the modern "smart" fan is being perceived as not worthy of their presence based on perceived merit and ability (e.g. Eva Marie, Roman Reigns). I'm open to counter examples, but I can't think of any.

I'm personally at the point where a well-written, well-performed baddie can be appreciated on those merits. I don't perceive there ever being a time where it's so well done that it achieves its intention. I mean, it's a lot like the admiration for a performance in film this point, but just not as good.

Good point, forget everything I said.

 

[Browny]

You never saw early 90s Rude or Vader or Austin pandering to the crowd in WCW. Hell, I hated Tex Slazenger and Shanghai Pierce because they were fucking nasty cheating heels. Simple character work that translated to their work in the ring.

 

[Kaiterra]

The worst thing in Seth's case is that not only would he look super impressive in the ring, he'd then lose constantly on top of it. That's like... A sure fire recipe for turning a character sympathetic to the point where it's hard to believe it wasn't on purpose.

 

[Menome]

I initially approached wrestling similar to a sport, thinking you'd just end up picking your favourites from the people wrestling depending on who you were impressed by and sometimes they'd be a nice guy/girl, sometimes they'd be a dick.

Turns out there's people you're 'supposed' to cheer for and if you don't then you're somehow watching the show in the wrong way. It may be the way wrestling's worked in the past, but in this day and age I don't think it can really carry on being set in stone that way in the modern era. Imagine telling the audience at the Superbowl this weekend that they're only allowed to cheer on one team, regardless of where they're from. To apply that sort of logic in an entertainment venue where everyone knows kayfabe is dead is futile.

That doesn't mean faces/heels as a concept has to go away, but expecting the crowd to only cheer for the face is out of date. Fans are going to cheer who they like and the brands need to adapt to that. If they want you to cheer for a particular person, they need you to have a reason to do so and a person who's got the ability to raise that cheer. Expecting the audience to just go along with what you want is lazy and out-of-touch.

 

[Son Of D]

Who wants a Batista match in 2016?

I honestly wouldn't mind a Batista vs Lesnar match. Could be a good big man match.

Although that would mean 2016 Batista and not 2007/2008 Batista when he had his feud with Undertaker.

 

[Kaiterra]

I initially approached wrestling similar to a sport, thinking you'd just end up picking your favourites from the people wrestling depending on who you were impressed by and sometimes they'd be a nice guy/girl, sometimes they'd be a dick.

Turns out there's people you're 'supposed' to cheer for and if you don't then you're somehow watching the show in the wrong way. It may be the way wrestling's worked in the past, but in this day and age I don't think it can really carry on being set in stone that way in the modern era. Imagine telling the audience at the Superbowl this weekend that they're only allowed to cheer on one team, regardless of where they're from. To apply that sort of logic in an entertainment venue where everyone knows kayfabe is dead is futile.

That doesn't mean faces/heels as a concept has to go away, but expecting the crowd to only cheer for the face is out of date. Fans are going to cheer who they like and the brands need to adapt to that. If they want you to cheer for a particular person, they need you to have a reason to do so and a person who's got the ability to raise that cheer. Expecting the audience to just go along with what you want is lazy and out-of-touch.

This is dead on. There were always people who cheered the heels anyway, even when kayfabe was a thing, and not just to be contrary or look smart.

 

[Fox318]

the single best thing about the 2016 rumble is brock beating the shit out of Stroman.

Brock who probably wouldn't ever waste his fucking time watching this carny ass fake sport just saw Stroman is one of Vince's pet fake tough guys who wouldn't sell at all for him and proceeded to beat the shit out of him.

I really wonder with the state of the UFC heavyweight division the way it is and with the new PED rules if Brock regrets not fighting.

 

[Cagey]

I initially approached wrestling similar to a sport, thinking you'd just end up picking your favourites from the people wrestling depending on who you were impressed by and sometimes they'd be a nice guy/girl, sometimes they'd be a dick.

Turns out there's people you're 'supposed' to cheer for and if you don't then you're somehow watching the show in the wrong way. It may be the way wrestling's worked in the past, but in this day and age I don't think it can really carry on being set in stone that way in the modern era. Imagine telling the audience at the Superbowl this weekend that they're only allowed to cheer on one team, regardless of where they're from. To apply that sort of logic in an entertainment venue where everyone knows kayfabe is dead is futile.

That doesn't mean faces/heels as a concept has to go away, but expecting the crowd to only cheer for the face is out of date. Fans are going to cheer who they like and the brands need to adapt to that. If they want you to cheer for a particular person, they need you to have a reason to do so and a person who's got the ability to raise that cheer. Expecting the audience to just go along with what you want is lazy and out-of-touch.

Welcome to professional wrestling, a scripted form of entertainment where people write storylines, characters, and plot arcs that unfold on a weekly basis.

All the crowd needs to do if they love Heath Ledger as the Joker so much is hate and despise the character and wish he loses to the hero Christian Bale Batman while thinking he's doing a marvelous job making me hate him, instead of turning that positive thoughts on his performance into an outward cheering and applauding and trying to ruin the story being told.

And if not, they shouldn't watch bad forms of entertainment like Batman movies or pro wrestling.

 

[Recall]

Brock is ace

 

[kirblar]

I really wonder with the state of the UFC heavyweight division the way it is and with the new PED rules if Brock regrets not fighting.

Not after the Diverticulitis. He'll take the easy paycheck here.

 

[Fox318]

Also notice how Brock isn't wearing a shirt nor street clothes.

Thats what a main eventer should wear.

Only exceptions to the rule is Cena with his jorts and basketball jerseys and Taker.

Also an invading faction.

 

[Menome]

Welcome to professional wrestling, a scripted form of entertainment where people write storylines, characters, and plot arcs that unfold on a weekly basis.

All the crowd needs to do if they love Heath Ledger as the Joker so much is hate and despise the character and wish he loses to the hero Christian Bale Batman while thinking he's doing a marvelous job making me hate him, instead of turning that positive thoughts on his performance into an outward cheering and applauding and trying to ruin the story being told.

And if not, they shouldn't watch bad forms of entertainment like Batman movies or pro wrestling.

Probably a bad example to use as a huge number of Batman fans absolutely fucking love The Joker in almost all iterations, despite him being a sadistic, twisted villain. In fact in many cases, because of it.

He's hugely popular because he's the ultimate bad guy for Batman and due to that, there's a plethora of merchandise and spin-off material devoted to him. DC Comics don't go: "Please don't support the bad guy!", they go and print special Joker series and action figures and t-shirts and make a bucketload of money out of it.

 

[Ithil]

Welcome to professional wrestling, a scripted form of entertainment where people write storylines, characters, and plot arcs that unfold on a weekly basis.

Their storylines, characters and "plot arcs" (where are these again?) suck.
There's no participation award.

 

[Fox318]

The only version of the Joker I've ever seen people state their dislike was in the Animated "The Batman" series.

every other version has something good to awesome going for it.

 

[Raw64life]

Too large of a percentage of the current WWE fanbase 1, knows that it's fake, and 2, recognizes talent, for anyone to get the real, old school type of heel heat that people used to get.

 

[Kaiterra]

Welcome to professional wrestling, a scripted form of entertainment where people write storylines, characters, and plot arcs that unfold on a weekly basis.

All the crowd needs to do if they love Heath Ledger as the Joker so much is hate and despise the character and wish he loses to the hero Christian Bale Batman while thinking he's doing a marvelous job making me hate him, instead of turning that positive thoughts on his performance into an outward cheering and applauding and trying to ruin the story being told.

And if not, they shouldn't watch bad forms of entertainment like Batman movies or pro wrestling.

But what if the movie spends half its runtime making Batman look like an idiot and a bully and presenting Joker as the only one who makes sense and is cool.

Like I think Breaking Bad had this problem to a degree. Walt was just a little too sympathetic even at the end and a little too hyper competent to the point where there was a sizable number of fans who wouldn't accept anyone going over him.

 

[Plywood]

You need a good build and characters go a long way, there aren't many people putting character into their ring work in WWE. A simple way to fix that and get people behind that is good goi vs bad goi, but hey fuck basic wrestling psychology right?

 

[Nocturnowl]

The only version of the Joker I've ever seen people state their dislike was in the Animated "The Batman" series.

every other version has something good to awesome going for it.

I still say "The Batman" Jester Joker had a unique take on the standard design, nice and distinct.

 

[jmdajr]

Do you think AJ Styles is a future WWE World Heavyweight Champion?

85% Yes! AJ Styles is truly phenomenal!
10% Not sure. I'll have to see him in more matches first.
4% No way. Triple H will be champion for life.

Silly voters

 

[Kaiterra]

Do you think AJ Styles is a future WWE World Heavyweight Champion?

85% Yes! AJ Styles is truly phenomenal!
10% Not sure. I'll have to see him in more matches first.
4% No way. Triple H will be champion for life.

Silly voters

Wow these voters putting HHH in an early grave smh

 

[Sweeney Tom]

The 4% = HHH, Shane, Vince, Steph, and accounts they made for their kids

 

[jmdajr]

The 4% = HHH, Shane, Vince, Steph, and accounts they made for their kids

Haha... yeah

 

[Menome]

You need a good build and characters go a long way, there aren't many people putting character into their ring work in WWE. A simple way to fix that and get people behind that is good goi vs bad goi, but hey fuck basic wrestling psychology right?

You're right, there needs to be more character work. A 'good' vs 'bad' thing can still work, but when every single match is adjusted to make sure there's always a good/bad dynamic, that can make it feel pretty stale.

People don't need to be locked in a feud to have a good match. If say, Lesnar and Owens had an on-the-spot match-up on RAW with no fuckery, despite both being heels right now, it'd still be a great bout thanks to the work both performers have put in to their characters and technique leading up to that. You don't have to make Brock or Owens the face in that scenario.

The pretence for the entire organisation is that you have a bunch of people fighting each other for chances at the titles. That should be their primary motivation, working up that ladder by winning matches. If one of those match-ups results in a super-babyface versus the top heel, it should feel special, not something that happens every Monday night.

Imagine it like one of the Tekken games and we're kayfabeing King. King battles through eight other people in the King of Iron Fist Tournament and gets a good match out of seven of those, but one was a dud. It happens. Then, his sub-boss Armor King turns up as fight No.9 and suddenly, kayfabe-wise, shit gets real. He's got history with this guy. King's the goody. Armor King's the baddy. This is an important fight and because Armor King hasn't been the opponent for the four rounds preceding this, it doesn't feel stale.

If King was automatically the face or heel against every other single opponent leading up to that, it takes away from the importance of the match-up with the guy he really has beef with.

 

[Fox318]

Do you think AJ Styles is a future WWE World Heavyweight Champion?

85% Yes! AJ Styles is truly phenomenal!
10% Not sure. I'll have to see him in more matches first.
4% No way. Triple H will be champion for life.

Silly voters

Won't be long till Vince and HHH have AJ selling to Stroman

 

[Kaiterra]

Won't be long till Vince and HHH have AJ selling to Stroman

I don't think selling is the word you wanted because AJ not selling for Strowman would be the most ridiculous thing ever.

 

[Cagey]

But what if the movie spends half its runtime making Batman look like an idiot and a bully and presenting Joker as the only one who makes sense and is cool.

Like I think Breaking Bad had this problem to a degree. Walt was just a little too sympathetic even at the end and a little too hyper competent to the point where there was a sizable number of fans who wouldn't accept anyone going over him.

That's an issue with the story of a protagonist anti-hero devolving into a full on villain and fans not accepting the devolution happened.

Kevin Owens isn't an anti-hero. Kevin Owens is a villain. Kevin Owens should be hated and wants you to hate him. If you're cheering Kevin Owens for acting evil, you're doing him a disservice. If you boo him as he wants and, in between booing, tell your buddies "man Owens is killing it tonight, he's so great" then you're him a major service.

In most instances, the WWE heel getting cheered is a villain. He's not an anti-hero. It's not ambiguous. It's clearcut.

 

[Fox318]

I don't think selling is the word you wanted because AJ not selling for Strowman would be the most ridiculous thing ever.

Did you see Stromans punches?

I don't care how much a man deadlifts if he punches like that I don't want anyone to sell for him.

 

[FlammableD]

Well hopefully that puts to bed the ICW and PROGRESS hate each other deal. Lots of interesting returns/debuts this show I hope make it to London.

 

[Plywood]

You're right, there needs to be more character work. A 'good' vs 'bad' thing can still work, but when every single match is adjusted to make sure there's always a good/bad dynamic, that can make it feel pretty stale.

People don't need to be locked in a feud to have a good match. If say, Lesnar and Owens had an on-the-spot match-up on RAW with no fuckery, despite both being heels right now, it'd still be a great bout thanks to the work both performers have put in to their characters and technique leading up to that. You don't have to make Brock or Owens the face in that scenario.

The pretence for the entire organisation is that you have a bunch of people fighting each other for chances at the titles. That should be their primary motivation, working up that ladder by winning matches. If one of those match-ups results in a super-babyface versus the top heel, it should feel special, not something that happens every Monday night.

Imagine it like one of the Tekken games and we're kayfabeing King. King battles through eight other people in the King of Iron Fist Tournament and gets a good match out of seven of those, but one was a dud. It happens. Then, his sub-boss Armor King turns up as fight No.9 and suddenly, kayfabe-wise, shit gets real. He's got history with this guy. King's the goody. Armor King's the baddy. This is an important fight and because Armor King hasn't been the opponent for the four rounds preceding this, it doesn't feel stale.

If King was automatically the face or heel against every other single opponent leading up to that, it takes away from the importance of the match-up with the guy he really has beef with.

Nothing really to say except I agree, but something like your scenario would require that emphasis and build up on how King has nothing personal against the other competitors but he wants to get to Armor King because of raisins and that he will do what it takes to see him at the King of Iron Fist Tournamentfest. Though that's the thing there's just not a lot of long term and creative booking.

 

[DMczaf]

Brock vs Stroman is going to be fucking hilarious at WM32.

Remember Inoki v Great Antonio "Worked Into A Shoot" match?

Imagine that, in 2016, with millions of people watching.

 

[Kaiterra]

That's an issue with the story of a protagonist anti-hero devolving into a full on villain and fans not accepting the devolution happened.

Kevin Owens isn't an anti-hero. Kevin Owens is a villain. Kevin Owens should be hated and wants you to hate him. If you're cheering Kevin Owens for acting evil, you're doing him a disservice. If you boo him as he wants and, in between booing, tell your buddies "man Owens is killing it tonight, he's so great" then you're him a major service.

In most instances, the WWE heel getting cheered is a villain. He's not an anti-hero. It's not ambiguous. It's clearcut.

Kevin Owens debuted and defeated John Cena in a fair fight and John Cena then played a sore loser and kept questioning his manhood and saying that it wouldn't count unless he beat him multiple times. Then steamrolled through him multiple times. Who should the audience have cheered in this storyline?

 

[Menome]

Brock vs Stroman is going to be fucking hilarious at WM32.

Remember Inoki v Great Antonio "Worked Into A Shoot" match?

Imagine that, in 2016, with millions of people watching.

I've already seen one man die at Night Of Champions in my first year of wrestling. If this match up goes ahead, it could be a second if Strowman doesn't start selling Brock's attacks properly.

 

[klonere]

At the go home Raw to Summerslam Cena told Rollins "Nobody cares about you, they either cheer for me or cheer against me".

What the fuck reception do you think he was expecting in New York with that line? Garbo psychology, like all the Cena US Open Challenge matches.

 

[Striker]

You're right, there needs to be more character work. A 'good' vs 'bad' thing can still work, but when every single match is adjusted to make sure there's always a good/bad dynamic, that can make it feel pretty stale.

People don't need to be locked in a feud to have a good match. If say, Lesnar and Owens had an on-the-spot match-up on RAW with no fuckery, despite both being heels right now, it'd still be a great bout thanks to the work both performers have put in to their characters and technique leading up to that. You don't have to make Brock or Owens the face in that scenario.

A great example of this is Bret and Roddy's match at Wrestlemania 8. Or for the main stage, Hogan and Warrior. Those worked because of the build and all four guys had a distinct reason for their actions.

It's not the same when you have a regular ol' match on a Raw that has none of that build up.

 

[Fox318]

Brock vs Stroman is going to be fucking hilarious at WM32.

Remember Inoki v Great Antonio "Worked Into A Shoot" match?

Imagine that, in 2016, with millions of people watching.

Now that would sell network subs.

 

[Kaiterra]

At the go home Raw to Summerslam Cena told Rollins "Nobody cares about you, they either cheer for me or cheer against me".

What the fuck reception do you think he was expecting in New York with that line? Garbo psychology, like all the Cena US Open Challenge matches.

Shit like that is why I sometimes think WWE is TRYING to get a mixed reaction for their top guys on purpose.

 

[Plywood]

Brock vs Stroman is going to be fucking hilarious at WM32.

Remember Inoki v Great Antonio "Worked Into A Shoot" match?

Imagine that, in 2016, with millions of people watching.

You're telling me I get an unsanctioned Pride match in 2016? Sign me the frick up.

 

[DMczaf]

Wrestlemania Star |OT|

 

[somedevil]

Brock vs Stroman is going to be fucking hilarious at WM32.

Remember Inoki v Great Antonio "Worked Into A Shoot" match?

Imagine that, in 2016, with millions of people watching.

Not going to happen according to Meltzer. Right now its Brock vs Bray. As for Stroman it seems he has a better chance winning that battle royal than facing either Brock or the Undertaker.

 

[slightconfuse]

Guys it ok to like who ever you want.

Lucha Underground best camara work

 

[Sibersk Esto]

Pj Black is so lame

 

[British Monsoon]

Pj Black is so lame

Even Lucha Underground can't make him interesting. He's a high flyer who just isn't as impressive in his aerial ability as about half the roster.

 

[Nekofrog]

To the face/heel thing

Look at the nwo. Massive heels that had both fans and actual heat, a divided audience. Did they pander? Not really, maybe a tad here and there, but for the most part they were just massive assholes that did whatever they wanted. some people loved it and some people loved to hate it.

But whenever Sting would show up and obliterate every single member of the nwo at once, even the guys who loved the nwo were on their feet going nuts for their guys getting beaten up by the clear face in the scenario. You can throw the word tweener around but I don't think that applies to the situation.

Tldr you can have bad guys that the audience loves and get them to cheer and lose their minds when they get beaten up. It just requires actual thought about the story and characters.

 

[Sibersk Esto]

Even Lucha Underground can't make him interesting. He's a high flyer who just isn't as impressive in his aerial ability as about half the roster.

Acting like a big smiley hand clapping goober when you're supposed to be a thrill seeking adrenaline junkie doesn't help

 

[Spirit of Jazz]

Labelling yourself as a Darewolf doesn't help. It's like he's gone out of his way to take two potentially cool things and combine them in the lamest way possible.

 

[rrc1594]

KO is my hero. I'm officially starting OwensGaf

 

[Anth0ny]

the single best thing about the 2016 rumble is brock beating the shit out of Stroman.

Brock who probably wouldn't ever waste his fucking time watching this carny ass fake sport just saw Stroman is one of Vince's pet fake tough guys who wouldn't sell at all for him and proceeded to beat the shit out of him.

I really wonder with the state of the UFC heavyweight division the way it is and with the new PED rules if Brock regrets not fighting.

dude just started spamming tiger knees

shit was awesome