Twintania had bugs in the fight, but Twisters were not. I was in BG when it was killed.
Either way, the way SE treats hardcore players in XIV has crippled the end game experience. Excalibur is a nightmare.
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Final Fantasy XIV: Heavensward |OT| The Midas Touch
- Thread starter Ken
- Start date
Twintania had bugs in the fight, but Twisters were not. I was in BG when it was killed.
Either way, the way SE treats hardcore players in XIV has crippled the end game experience. Excalibur is a nightmare.
I guess I'm the only one who thought that FcoB was boring a shit. Battles were too scripted, and way way too fucking long. I damn near quit my static in T11,T12, and in T13. Looking back at the battles in ScoB, the only reason why they were fun to me was that it took a massive jump in skill required to clear, and I never raided before and I wanted to experience it.
Being a filthy casual is the best way to experience a game like this.
Being a filthy casual is the best way to experience a game like this.
It's a really well designed fight that was satisfying to beat. It was tuned really, really well for what it was, there were definite moments of "we got this now" throughout/feeling like we solved problems in ways beyond gearing or DPSing past it, and it's been fun to watch it get easier with gear without ever being straight broken by over gear like 1/2 or an artificial gear wall like 4.
It's also not A4S. It's the only thing in weekly clears that isn't basically shut your brain off and autopilot or suffer until loot phase.
I dunno then, maybe I'm wrong for thinking A3S could be preserved (as a final fight maybe) and they could dump the rest and come up with something better. I don't think A3S is necessarily a problem either.
Uh, all we know so far is that they're talking about expanding the Mission Goals you get at the beginning of Diadem. That tells us very VERY little about their plans for Diadem.
I mean, I can understand lack of optimism, but drawing conclusions based on literally no information is kinda bad form.
SE doesn't treat hardcore players like special snowflakes.
QQ.
Twintania weapons should actually still be the strongest in the game but only if you beat it world first.
Edit: This isn't me defending SE by the way. I just give no shits about hardcore players thinking they deserve high praise for beating a boss. Cool, you got a thing, new things will still come out later.
I was always under the impression that OG Twisters were the precursor to OG Mudras where they forgot people outside of Japan had to do said mechanic, hence the breakthrough to clear being running in circles on cast to force positional updates? Maybe I got history wrong.
Hopefully they keep it as a final fight, I'm just expecting more things where gear can deal with a mechanic rather than pass/fail execution ones.
You sound like the perfect player for FFXIV.
I'm a little confused. Wasn't SCoB built around insta-wipe mechanics and that was a complaint from everyone? It's kind of the same idea, I mean A3S as an example is still basically the same, the failure of mechanics wasn't an auto-wipe but it was just going to be an auto-enrage down the line anyway when doing it at more appropriate gear level.
Go play WildStar, it's so hardcore.
Excalibur being a nightmare is SE's fault?
He puts his sliders at the minimum so I hope not.
Disclaimer: I haven't set foot in A3S yet.
I'm not sure I would call A3S a well designed fight tbh, because of the massive amount of static deaths/drama/ or people just plain not raiding because of its reputation. In a way it pretty much killed the endgame for a bunch of raiders because in a game like this where pretty much all endgame activities are pretty much only justified on how useful it is to help you clear the raids. I mean why the shit would you go farm diadem for an hour and a half a shot, hoping to get a piece of raidworthy BiS gear if you feel you can't clear A3S? Why the hell should you grind out a new relic
because it won't help you beat A3S? For that matter why should you pay a sub fee to play endgame stuff if you can't beat A3S
?
Its great and fantastic that you guys found enjoyment in the strategy and tactics of the fight, but to be realistic, nothing at this skill/difficulty level is ever coming back.
need to change your age to 99
I'm not sure I would call A3S a well designed fight tbh, because of the massive amount of static deaths/drama/ or people just plain not raiding because of its reputation. In a way it pretty much killed the endgame for a bunch of raiders because in a game like this where pretty much all endgame activities are pretty much only justified on how useful it is to help you clear the raids. I mean why the shit would you go farm diadem for an hour and a half a shot, hoping to get a piece of raidworthy BiS gear if you feel you can't clear A3S? Why the hell should you grind out a new relic
using the same grindy shit
or whatever raid fight
Its great and fantastic that you guys found enjoyment in the strategy and tactics of the fight, but to be realistic, nothing at this skill/difficulty level is ever coming back.
need to change your age to 99
I've noticed atleast half of the Lala I've run into are stuck up passive aggressive shitheads. /anecdotal
Then there are the ones who have Roe crushes...
I think there is a lot of sense in the theory that the group killer has been that A3S wasn't the last fight. It's a good cap-off fight mechanically but the community took a morale hit when the actual cap-off fight was so shitty that the "correct" way to beat it is by cheesing a mechanic and relying on weakness timers to wear off on scripted party member deaths. People had nothing to look forward to. Your reward for beating A3S was a broken fight. T13 was about as mechanically challenging IMO but the reward for beating T13 was you won, you did it. The mental game is what got people.
Viera are like 6'+ though. I don't think my cat is that tall at max height.
At the very least, jigglybutt leaves behind a legacy to be remembered to 4.0.
There will still be an orange sky!Uh, all we know so far is that they're talking about expanding the Mission Goals you get at the beginning of Diadem. That tells us very VERY little about their plans for Diadem.
I mean, I can understand lack of optimism, but drawing conclusions based on literally no information is kinda bad form.
I don't mean mechanics that you do or wipe the raid but things that you have to do the mechanic, period, rather than gear letting you cope. It's more obvious with A4S primary mechanics being all damage-related. I'm not a fan of basically just getting to go "well, we can't do the mechanics right but in 10 more ilvls we won't have to!"
So somewhere in between, basically? Mechanics you have to do but aren't strictly because they deal too much damage.
Here's the thing though, I don't think the fight is insurmountably hard skill/difficulty wise? I think a lot of people psyched themselves out of it with how long the first A3S kill took and how awful it sounded on paper. It's a fight you can progress through and really see it get better.
There is a LOT of truth to this!
Been a struggle to keep people from giving up in A3S, and at least a few are open that it's because A4S is immediately behind it. Our PLD for example, has convinced himself that he'll need to level and gear DRK if we get into A4S. This belief hasn't helped him. <_<;;
This is a huge part of it, IMO, combined with A3S week 1 reputation letting people psych themselves out. A3S with Ravana weapons isn't A3S with Eso weapons (and it certainly isn't A3S at i209.) Hand of Pain was this rumored 2:40 insane wipe mechanic, which stuck with people, but a lot of why it was so bad so early on is nobody had any idea how it worked (it's roughly Faust damage. If you're in A3S you should be able to Faust. NBD.) A3S got a rep for being unbeatably hard early on, and so when people got there and struggled it was easier to just blame the fight being too hard and wait for somebody to address it. Since, yeah, beating Waterman means you get to deal with seven minutes of leg bullshit followed by six minutes of suicide jumps.
But what's in between? Do the mechanic or fail is the premise and I agree, I like that premise more. But there is no real difference between do the mechanic and insta-wipe or do the mechanic and fail to enrage later other than the fact that the second one lets you practice the fight more which I completely approve of.
Idk, I seem to remember alot of people just quit A3S way before it came out that A4S was a shitty fight. It seems to be the final kick in the balls for people who are still on it and they are saying fuck this shit. Perhaps I'm remembering wrong.
Or it could be I don't have a raider's mentality and don't look towards the next fight, I'm just looking at the fight I'm currently on. Plus, the rewards of clearing a final fight of a raid; eg. better gear, larger epeen. etc..., aren't important to me.
We knew A4S was a shitty fight before most groups even got to 3. World first pushers were vocally unhappy and I remember the initial clears being basically "this was bullshit but we did it."
One of the things about A3S I don't think people fully realize is: If you fail to pass off damage down, you can drastically reduce the amount your group suffers for it by having the person involved suicide. Weakness is a much smaller hit to damage done, which is particularly relevant if you're looking at a Gaol section coming up.
Assuming you view 'appropriate' gearing for A3S as somewhere between i200 and i205, it was possible to do with a failed DPS debuff pass and subsequent suicide. Likewise, you could fail the tank pickup and have a tank death and recover. You couldn't fail debuff swaps multiple times in a fight and not enrage, so you still need a plan that works, but a single error wasn't the killer I think people let it be.
One of the things about A3S I don't think people fully realize is: If you fail to pass off damage down, you can drastically reduce the amount your group suffers for it by having the person involved suicide. Weakness is a much smaller hit to damage done, which is particularly relevant if you're looking at a Gaol section coming up.
Assuming you view 'appropriate' gearing for A3S as somewhere between i200 and i205, it was possible to do with a failed DPS debuff pass and subsequent suicide. Likewise, you could fail the tank pickup and have a tank death and recover. You couldn't fail debuff swaps multiple times in a fight and not enrage, so you still need a plan that works, but a single error wasn't the killer I think people let it be.
This:
But really, it was a new patch cycle, people who thought it would be too hard to join raiding halfway through 2.x all piled on to 3.x raiding from the start but some people aren't cut out for raiding so they realized right away that there isn't some difficulty curve starting from 3.0 and going up, the difficulty is there the whole way though. You'll see a big mass raid quit early on in 4.x I'm sure too. That's just par in most games. People think new expacs are the time to try something new and with so many people trying, a lot will learn they suck at something.
A3S has a lot of mechanics you need to do execute but not strictly about damage you take. We've had pretty much every single combination of Digitits fails and I think have a kill with an Embolus broken (or at least a low% wipe). Even then, we've seen enrage so many times on A3S (and A4S) with failed mechanics that let us keep going and work around it or at least like ... try. They didn't immediately end the fight.
HylianScribe
Member
I want a fight where I don't need to gear up for weeks to clear it. If you can work out the mechanics and figure out the patterns/strategy, you can win without needing "better" gear (or having to spend ridiculous amounts of GIL to make sufficient gear to survive). No "shit, our HP is going to be too low for another 2-3 weeks till we get some more left side pieces, herp derp /sundrop dance until then" nonsense. This is another major reason why I love primal EX battles. You don't have to grind for X weeks to be geared to take them on successfully. I just wish we could get more.
However, I'm never getting this in an MMO raid. That would allow people to clear too soon and unsub.
In pug groups this was a thing. Saw some really...creative ways to handle mechanics to recover...I even tanked a hand from split to part way into Hand of Pain as WHM...and we still made it to next phase...
However, I'm never getting this in an MMO raid. That would allow people to clear too soon and unsub.
In pug groups this was a thing. Saw some really...creative ways to handle mechanics to recover...I even tanked a hand from split to part way into Hand of Pain as WHM...and we still made it to next phase...
MISTAKES WERE MADE.
Did they say if players have to clear Alexander Garbage before entering the new tier?
No one but tanks really used crafted gear this time though, compared to everyone getting VIT melds for T13.
Also those early week kill groups kind of prove a lot of stuff is doable without better gear! Those people just push their job better instead of writing book-long posts complaining about things.
Honestly, yeah I kinda think that if you're going to do a true savage tier is probably SHOULD come later. Honestly, for me the idea would be NM and HM raids introduced during even numbered patches, with a SM version introduced in the following odd numbered patch. I know they say that they don't really have the resources for three tiers, but I would think spacing them out would help them with that at least somewhat.
The problem of course is finding a reward for the Savage Mode version that's actually enticing. Titles didn't do it, and even gear only got people so far. In all honesty the segment of the server population that actually wants to DO a savage mode fight is probably really small. I'm not sure there's anything you can really offer to get more then the top raid groups to really hit those fights with gusto.
4 being the fight with the actual gear wall this timeis just another reason it's garbage. Getting to the fight and then realizing we had basically a month of waiting for Twinesplosion day before even bothering to really try was super fun.
have you seen the spider tank mount
the gun wobbles
!!!!
have you seen the spider tank mount
the gun wobbles
!!!!
Oh, I want the mount bad. Other players don't seem to care that much.
HylianScribe
Member
First point: Was just accounting for a way it was done before. I don't want that option to ever come back, and by the looks of it, it won't with the updated melding rules.
Second point: I removed wording in my original post that said "elite hardcore" to refer to a very small portion of the player base that should never, ever have input on how to shape the overall game (except when THEY say something is too hard...) that had been attached to the statement. Basically, "Except for elite hardcore who are the extremely rare, definitely not the norm for everyone else, most all of FF XIV raid content is designed with gear progression in mind." And no offense, raid content is a team thing. You could be the Daigo Umehara or Faker, but without a supporting team, you don't win/clear stuff. I don't think you were suggesting that I should git gud, but I believe if all of this content could be done in a single player fashion, I would have been done with this shit a long time ago. No offense to people who like team-based/co-op stuff, it's never been my favorite part of playing a video game.
Definitely agree with this.
Heck, they could've made Alex, "easier," then Coil and it would've been a more rational decision. Would've made it easier for new players to get into raiding. Granted, other problems would've resulted, but it would still have been more rational then designing these fights with world first bleeding edge progression players in mind.
HylianScribe
Member
Ultros is where all the cool kids started, though.
And FYI, Gilgamesh horror stories are becoming more frequent. It's like the midwest college kid trying to go to the big city and getting chewed up and spit back out and coming home with their tail between their legs. It is not the promised land, the so called "promised land" is an exclusive club with Trump style borders built around it that unless you have a "no bonus" on A4S you don't even get considered. The rest are left to fend with the rising mediocrity of the PF pool of players left out of the club, and these people are encountering the same frustrations they found on Ultros (or elsewhere), only they don't know anybody on Gilga. The exodus is going to end as soon as word spreads more that it's a trap to move there and think things are better.
The cross server raid group finder tool should help with this too.
Let's wait for details on that, I would hate for people to get excited for something that will have inane restrictions attached (I'm assuming here).
tiggerkiddo
Member
Well maybe I'll have better luck finding a static closer to 3.2
Trying to find a raid group has been terrible since Final Coil
Trying to find a raid group has been terrible since Final Coil
HylianScribe
Member
You back out of 3 cross-server queues, you get locked out of your account for 30 mins! JK.
Oh, of course. That said, "assuming," this is an effective tool for finding groups, even if you have to then server transfer it should at least help break get some people out of Gilgamesh and into the less populated servers.
My impression that it's far more common for people to have active openings in said less populated servers.
The 30 minute DF lockout is still probably the stupidest thing I've seen come from this game. Withdrawing from the queue gets punishment? Fuck off.
I understand it for ditching on a run, that's fine.