irfaanator
Banned
brother bear and that song is bad, and you should feel bad. Brother bear over lion king, ha.
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Final Fantasy XIV |OT6| Casino Royale
- Thread starter tiggerkiddo
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brother bear and that song is bad, and you should feel bad. Brother bear over lion king, ha.
IAWTP
irfaanator
Banned
you've been on mumble. so I don't know what to say
I believe the cube does only magic damage, so having a WAR tank it is better because they can apply Storm's Path (Rage of Halone won't reduce the damage).
Storm's Path should always be up, full stop. Even if it lowers your DPS, lowering damage overall can allow your healers to squeeze in some extra DPS to compensate (and it's not even that large of a loss) or use less MP to let the bard DPS more. That's worth much more than your extra 13 average potency on your combo (and it's only one combo out of every two or three). Not to mention it just lowers the chance of people dying to damage.
You're going to see a MUCH larger increase of your own DPS by learning when to stance dance.
I'm a horrible person, though, so it just strengthens the point.
theSlacker
Member
Checkmate.
I already do the defiance stance dance on a lot of fights.
Aaaaaaanyhow, if there is a ninja that can keep the slashing debuffs on, than yes, alternating between Storms Path and Butchers Block combo' makes all the sense in the world.
That slash debuffs though, makes a pretty big difference, since it always buffs at least two people in the party, possibly three.
It didn't seem to make a huge difference either way, though limited sample size pool and all (and not being a tank to check myself). Think the early suggestions for the tanks were also this setup, though, and for that very reason too.
Angary is only okay with mumble when she personally mutes 80% of the people there.
HylianScribe
Member
That's your job to keep the slashing debuff on. Ninja is only there for pld tanks.
All of sphere's auto attacks/cleaves are magic as well I believe. I think the only thing that "might" be physical is repelling cannon, but since that is shared damage if it anything it makes more sense for WAR to be on it as 10% straight damage down is more than the reduction you'd get from 10% str down. Combined with the mentioned PLD awareness length, PLD on cube definitely makes more sense.
That said it really really really doesn't matter in any major way.
Well, in that case you have two players that can apply the slashing debuffs, and only one that can apply the damage lowering debuffs.
War can apply both mind you, but it's a fairly large reduction to our damage output, seeing as Butchers Block is our highest potency combo.
Ultimately, how you handle applying buffs is probably going to differ from group to group.
One-stop bait shops coming in the near future.
No more having to remember where Shrimp Cage Feeders come from! (The answer is that fortress near the Tidegates by Aleport.)
No more having to remember where Shrimp Cage Feeders come from! (The answer is that fortress near the Tidegates by Aleport.)
If most of the sphere's stuff is magic, then that does make sense. I definitely agree it's not a big difference either way. I will admit that I've not cleared that turn yet (my group is working on said add phase), but I'm tanking the cube as warrior and it's working out well enough.
It's not that much of a damage loss to do Storm's Eye instead of Butcher's Block. It's a loss of 20 potency totalled over 3 GCDs on a job with less damage stats than ninja. Making the ninja do it instead of the warrior is going to drop the total party DPS. Don't do it.
The exception is when you're main tanking and need to generate aggro. Then the ninja should be doing it (and the warrior should be alternating Storm's Path with Butcher's Block).
Edit: Beaten by scy. Didn't even realize the potency drop was higher on ninja, so there's even more reason they shouldn't be applying the debuff.
There's literally no advantage to having the Ninja apply the debuff over a Warrior.
I'm confused, why does anyone care about the Warriors damage output? That's your secondary goal vs. it being the ninjas primary goal. Ninja has precedence in damage dealing rotation.
So, what your saying is, I can't rip hate off MTs out of defiance, in the name of Max DPS anymore?
T_T
Also, context.
On a striking dummy, with STR accessories, I can average 330 DPS, out of defiance. Obviously that's lower in fights with actual mechanics, but there are fights in the game where doing this is helpful.
T_T
Also, context.
On a striking dummy, with STR accessories, I can average 330 DPS, out of defiance. Obviously that's lower in fights with actual mechanics, but there are fights in the game where doing this is helpful.
Augemitbutter
Member
i like the poetics tank helmet. looks good visor down and up. good job.
Sure but that's chump change to all the other DPS classes. Especially NIN which is getting above 500 on a dummy.
What does this have to do with anything? Nobody said you shouldn't be DPSing, you just shouldn't be making the Ninjas apply the slashing debuff because they get more damage out of their GCDs than you do.
He was due for an argument today.
Yes, I get that. I'm simply asserting the following things.
1: on content where the off tank is taking relatively little damage, going DPS build Warrior makes sense. As they're almost a full DPS, but can still tank things if they're watched closely, handle their CDs correctly, etc.
2: my original point was that when learning new content keeping the damage and slashing debuffs up were fairly important, and that later the damage debuff can be dropped, particularly on content where each bit of DPS is vitally important. The objection here is that the damage debuff allows healers to DP, and this might be true for some healers, but so far the bulk of healers I've encountered in this game, don't seem to appreciably change their playstyle in the presence of that buff.
Finally, I will admit that I'm still learning how Ninjas are affecting the relationship between all the different class types, and I hadn't realized that applying the slash debuff was such a DPS loss for Ninjas.
Been saying this all along man, the lockout is garbage and leads to scenarios that you pointed out above. You have problems with strategies and statics mixing but for people who are new to coil it's even more frustrating when you get mixed in with people who are experienced.
I just started up a static and although we are struggling to get a full party we have been running some of the content for practice together. The big issue is even if we state that it is a learning party too many experienced people, some who are in a position of having their static on hiatus or disbanded joining expecting us to still clear in a few attempts and let me tell you the last few nights we've had some real ignorant people.
It's getting real hard continuing with this game at this point imo, there is just so little fun to be had at this point and I'm really not sure what I want to do. I am getting tired of sitting in PF or DF all night waiting, trying to get people to help or dealing with people who rage quit after 1-2 attempts. I really hope in the expansion they drop the bullshit excuses and lockouts or this game will forever go down this path.
Lockout is problematic, but TBH dropping it won't do anything to help people still in old content. There's a substantial part of the playerbase that has no patience with extended wipes, and the proportions won't change. You'll find a lot of people that will help by ferrying new people through content in close-to or straight carries, but fewer who will just gladly go die for a lockout so that a learning group has enough bodies. They exist, but I'm not really sure there's a good way to increase the population significantly. Wiping for four hours on something you know you can kill can be frustrating.
Dropping the lockout would/will increase the amount of carrying going on, but I don't know how they incentivize experienced people just dying over and over. Short of maybe making the new player bonus stack and multiply so that you instacap soldiery if half the party is new.
Dropping the lockout would/will increase the amount of carrying going on, but I don't know how they incentivize experienced people just dying over and over. Short of maybe making the new player bonus stack and multiply so that you instacap soldiery if half the party is new.
Even if your healers don't do any extra DPS, they'll use less MP, which means less need for Ballad, which means more BRD DPS. All for a loss of 40 potency over 3 GCDs every two or three combos (which is a loss of 2-3% DPS, a loss of less than half a percent of DPS for the entire group, assuming zero extra healer or bard DPS). On top of less chance of people dying to damage, I will take that basically every time, learning or not.
I didn't know how much a ninja lost for applying the slashing resistance debuff, but considering warrior only loses 20 potency over 3 GCDs, I made a confident assumption that ninja would lose at least that much (and if potencies are even, ninja loses more DPS). You vastly overestimate how much DPS warriors lose by applying their debuffs.
Pellegri Testament
Member
There really isn't is the thing. The only game that has gone against the grain with a different lockout is WoW with how it handles lfr and you'll find that it's far worse. A single random piece of loot a week for your spec(per raid, not per boss), there is no "unique" status for them either so you can get doubles for weeks...and weeks...and weeks, or you go 10+ runs without anything (this was all before 6.0, I haven't played after that hit).
WoW though was different than this where a higher ilvl meant like 90% of the time that the loot was better unless the secondaries were just balls. In this you have 130 gear that doesn't even compare to some 110 gear due to secondaries, if you have 120 gear then it's also better than some 130. Do you really want potential shit 130 gear for weeks because there is nothing unique? There is no taking off the "unique" status either because then you could get geared in 3 weeks and there'd be no reason to go back ever again.
It's not a matter of a "relationship" between all the classes, it's just simple math. Warrior loses 10 potency by debuffing instead of bblocking, Ninja loses 60? (50? I forget, honestly) before you even factor in all the additional buffs etc. that make Ninja GCDs more valuable.
Maybe it's just me, but even on easy content I keep the Eye/Path debuff up as much as possible. It's more fun than just Butcher's Blocking all the time, and it frees the healer up to use their GCDs on DPS.
tiggerkiddo
Member
Also doesn't help that while it isn't a dead server, Ultros is a really low pop server compared to others. I've been on another server and it was far more active.
If you're Butcher's Blocking all the time, you're doing it wrong. You need to do, "either," of the secondary rotations on Warrior, frequently, just to keep the Maim buff up. (+20% Damage.)
And yes, it is a matter of relationship. How buffs and rotations affect the DPS/Mitigation/Health of other classes is pretty much the dictionary definition of class relationships.
This isn't true, personal loot is per boss, not per raid. And in Mists of Pandaria you also had the chance to roll for another piece of loot using a particular currency. Not to mention that dupe loot is an issue with current Coil's loot system, too.
Sounds like the echo patch hits on the 17th, but this isn't 100% confirmed. (Just very very very very likely)
What 130 pieces are these that don't even compare to i110, as 90% of the time ilevel is king in this game too. Crafted gear can generally reach above it's level due to all the extra stats it can get but there's a limit. Optimizing secondaries is way overblown by some people, the difference in dps isn't even that large as secondaries suck in general. Classes that get special mechanics from stats like crit for SCH/BRD may be a special exception, but even that has it's limits too.
Both the loot system and the actual stats on the loot ideally need to be changed.
Instead of abstract opinion, here are stat weight based on i110 baseline.
EDIT - Actually that reddit thread is all kinds of confusing and I don't have time to read it, so not sure if that's based on i90 or i110 baseline but gives you an idea. Secondary stats can make a significant difference. A 1:3 or 1:4 ratio.
HylianScribe
Member
The problem is that until a few months ago, Ultros was one of the most populated servers. There was once a point on Ultros where you could reasonably expect to clear EX Primals (even Titan) in DF/PF. And this was when i90 was the cap...
To be fair, that's only if you're looking at the min/max from a 0 to 40-50 points on the item. Yes, an item with Acc/Skill Speed is a lot worse than Crit/Det. Significantly worse.
But when we're arguing, say, 15 combined Crit/Det difference across 20 ilvls? They're not a big deal there. Even all the i110 crafted means I gained 31 Crit/31 Det at most. Sure, that's a good amount but it's not beating i130 amounts of INT in those slots. I didn't gain 15-20% DPS from it.
Edit: That said, outside of sucking less this kind of min/max is about all I can do to push more damage and such.
But when we're arguing, say, 15 combined Crit/Det difference across 20 ilvls? They're not a big deal there. Even all the i110 crafted means I gained 31 Crit/31 Det at most. Sure, that's a good amount but it's not beating i130 amounts of INT in those slots. I didn't gain 15-20% DPS from it.
Edit: That said, outside of sucking less this kind of min/max is about all I can do to push more damage and such.
Pellegri Testament
Member
Bard chest is one where fully pentamelded it's just about on par with the augmented chest and barely under the dreadwyrm(that is if you can even use the dreadwyrm one without gimping yourself on acc/other secondaries). Summoner gear in general is another where several crafted pieces come really close to 130 because they gimped summoners on crit/det this tier.
"Better" may not have been the right word, but several pieces come really close. Close enough that they are an option at least if you are having bad luck with drops or are holding back on tomestones. In the end it honestly matters very little when Coil can be done in full crafted gear if the entire group is pushing their limits, any gear beyond that just increases the margin for error or lack of skill when it comes to pushing your class.
I was AFK for this grand event.
Gamer @ Heart
Member
Will the scob echo be gradual or rahmoo style all in?
errr what? det is highest priority for blm now? purostrider still gives spellspeed as most important and i'm inclined to believe him
anyway finally cleared t11 (my group cleared without me last week since i was on vacation) and got my ironworks weapon
looks quite ugly
irfaanator
Banned
irfaanator
Banned
Every fight is t19 to us
I really want echo to farm turn fasts, trash is a pain to get through every time. <_<
To be fair, it's really hard to help people in this game, without carrying them, as long the fights are made of 1HKO "jump rope" mechanics. I loved helping in XI, I re-did Promathia and Alexander fights plenty of times for random strangers shouting in Whitegate, but when someone asks me to help them in this game, if 7/8 of the party isn't made of people who cleared it, my "helping" is basically useless.
Shiva is a good example of a fight I can bring new people in without it being a straight carry. But Titan or T7? Better for them to die at the beginning or they'll wipe the raid over and over.
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