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Formula 1 2017 Season |OT| Japanese Horror Story - Sundays on Sky

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nekkid

It doesn't matter who we are, what matters is our plan.
Oh God, hadn't considered Rosberg. That'd be hilarious. Isn't he still contracted to do some Mercedes promotional stuff?

On the other hand, he did say he wanted to end on a high. And this is a McLaren...

Who?
 

Zaru

Member
It looks like one of those 10 blade shavers you see on adverts.

That's one of the things that have been confusing me for years now.
How did the mid-00s F1 cars (particularly 04) manage such crazy lap times with such simple aero, grooved tyres, no DRS, no battery, etc...
Is it the weight difference?

Speaking of mid-00s, it's weird to know that FOM is sitting on higher quality, higher framerate footage like this and only using it for a couple of videos.
 

Doikor

Member
That's one of the things that have been confusing me for years now.
How did the mid-00s F1 cars (particularly 04) manage such crazy lap times with such simple aero, grooved tyres, no DRS, no battery, etc...
Is it the weight difference?

Speaking of mid-00s, it's weird to know that FOM is sitting on higher quality, higher framerate footage like this and only using it for a couple of videos.

Traction control. Was allowed 2001-2007. Also ECU was made the same for everyone and wind tunnel limits came in 2008 along with the TC ban.

But being able to just floor the pedal once you hit the apex just makes the exits faster. Ain't nobody out there with as precise a foot when it comes to traction then a multi million dollar computer.

Edit: also before 2009 it was one engine per race weekend.

Check here for all the rule changes over the years https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Formula_One_regulations
 

FrankCanada97

Roughly the size of a baaaaaarge
Look at this 2017 Formula 2 class photo:

_56i8946.jpg


Nick de Vries is randomly sporting chicken experts sponsorship.
 

Mastah

Member
That's one of the things that have been confusing me for years now.
How did the mid-00s F1 cars (particularly 04) manage such crazy lap times with such simple aero, grooved tyres, no DRS, no battery, etc...
Is it the weight difference?

Yes, it is weight (in 2017 cars are 123 kilos heavier than in 2004, which means if every 10 kilos = 0.35s, they "are" 4.3s slower), but also tyre grip. When Michelin came back to F1 in 2001, times dropped by 2-4 seconds per lap compared to 2000. You can only imagine how this competition massively improved grip by 2004.

Apparently 2017 tyres, despite much larger contact patch, are not delivering expected grip and in previous years with Pirelli drivers weren't even able to push 100% in quali, because tyres were overheating. Pirelli is simply not at the same level as Bridgestone or Michelin.

Traction control. Was allowed 2001-2007. Also ECU was made the same for everyone and wind tunnel limits came in 2008 along with the TC ban.

But being able to just floor the pedal once you hit the apex just makes the exits faster. Ain't nobody out there with as precise a foot when it comes to traction then a multi million dollar computer.

TC is worth at best 5 tenths.

Edit: also before 2009 it was one engine per race weekend.

Check here for all the rule changes over the years https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Formula_One_regulations

Only in 2004 though and it doesn't affect quali, as it's always maximum power.
 

Doikor

Member
Yes, it is weight (in 2017 cars are 123 kilos heavier than in 2004, which means if every 10 kilos = 0.35s, they "are" 4.3s slower), but also tyre grip. When Michelin came back to F1 in 2001, times dropped by 2-4 seconds per lap compared to 2000. You can only imagine how this competition massively improved grip by 2004.

Apparently 2017 tyres, despite much larger contact patch, are not delivering expected grip and in previous years with Pirelli drivers weren't even able to push 100% in quali, because tyres were overheating. Pirelli is simply not at the same level as Bridgestone or Michelin.



TC is worth at best 5 tenths.



Only in 2004 though and it doesn't affect quali, as it's always maximum power.

The lap times says it is more then that. Something like 1s. Just going from 2000 to 2001 there was a massive change to lap times even though the minimum weight rules were not changed. There was some other changes going from 2000 to 2001 (limit rear wing aero etc.). But still they went around 1 to 3 seconds quicker.

https://www.formula1.com/en/results.html/2000/fastest-laps.html
https://www.formula1.com/en/results.html/2001/fastest-laps.html

Though the engines just changed to V10s in 2000 so those probably still kept going forwards.

A better comparison is going from 2007 to 2008 when they lost somewhere around 1 second even though the only rule change in the cars themselves that was changed was the TC ban and standard ECU. Every other part should have gone forward so the loss from TC probably was more then the ~1s.

https://www.formula1.com/en/results.html/2007/fastest-laps.html
https://www.formula1.com/en/results.html/2008/fastest-laps.html

edit: Also the weight/time formula isn't as simple over time as all the other parts keep on going forward. Which is why the cars usually go a few tenths (at the minimum) faster every year even if you don't change the rules at all. But yes weight is very important too.
 
The lap times says it is more then that. Something like 1s. Just going from 2000 to 2001 there was a massive change to lap times even though the minimum weight rules were not changed. There was some other changes going from 2000 to 2001 (limit rear wing aero etc.). But still they went around 1 to 3 seconds quicker.

https://www.formula1.com/en/results.html/2000/fastest-laps.html
https://www.formula1.com/en/results.html/2001/fastest-laps.html

Though the engines just changed to V10s in 2000 so those probably still kept going forwards.

A better comparison is going from 2007 to 2008 when they lost somewhere around 1 second even though the only rule change in the cars themselves that was changed was the TC ban and standard ECU. Every other part should have gone forward so the loss from TC probably was more then the ~1s.

https://www.formula1.com/en/results.html/2007/fastest-laps.html
https://www.formula1.com/en/results.html/2008/fastest-laps.html

edit: Also the weight/time formula isn't as simple over time as all the other parts keep on going forward. Which is why the cars usually go a few tenths (at the minimum) faster every year even if you don't change the rules at all. But yes weight is very important too.

2001 was when Michelin came in to join Bridgestone. Tire competition drops lap times like stones (the answer to Zaru's question). 2008 is when they introduced engine/gearbox freezes. I'm sure there was some trade off of time for reliability.

TC is of course faster than not, but I think it would be impossible to separate it's gains from all the other changes. I think you'd need a team to give you the accurate figure.
 
Yes, it is weight (in 2017 cars are 123 kilos heavier than in 2004, which means if every 10 kilos = 0.35s, they "are" 4.3s slower), but also tyre grip. When Michelin came back to F1 in 2001, times dropped by 2-4 seconds per lap compared to 2000. You can only imagine how this competition massively improved grip by 2004.

Apparently 2017 tyres, despite much larger contact patch, are not delivering expected grip and in previous years with Pirelli drivers weren't even able to push 100% in quali, because tyres were overheating. Pirelli is simply not at the same level as Bridgestone or Michelin.



TC is worth at best 5 tenths.


Only in 2004 though and it doesn't affect quali, as it's always maximum power.
Also don't forget in those "no cost cap years" Ferrari worked very closely with Bridgestone to create a bespoke engine geometry to take full advantage of the Bridgestone tyre.
Testing only limited by teams budget, no test ban as well, every off race weekend you had Alonso and Schumacher and reserve testing new parts and improving their cars.
 
The good old times when getting new parts and technolgy into F1 was some amazing thing and didn't meet the "that's not pure racing anymore" nonsense.
 

DBT85

Member
So, both Massa and Button retire only to come back for more.

You're doing it wrong, guys.

To be fair, neither retired because they didn't want to drive any more, they just couldn't get a drive in a car they wanted for a wage they wanted.

Rosberg solved Massa's problem and Honda being shit has solved Balance's problem for at least 1 race.
 

Zaru

Member
To be fair, neither retired because they didn't want to drive any more, they just couldn't get a drive in a car they wanted for a wage they wanted.
Dunno, general consensus for Button seemed to be that he's kinda "done", though that might just have been "done driving in the midfield and shitty Hondas"
 

Aiii

So not worth it
It's weird to be this excited for a race weekend again, it's been so long of Merc dominating that it became the new normal to just get excited for the midfield battles instead.
 

tomtom94

Member
Dunno, general consensus for Button seemed to be that he's kinda "done", though that might just have been "done driving in the midfield and shitty Hondas"

Of the three elder statesmen on the grid (Raikkonen/Massa/Button), I'd say Button was the least "done" - remember there were a lot of rumours about him going to Williams which I still wish had happened, honestly.
 

Danielsan

Member
Of the three elder statesmen on the grid (Raikkonen/Massa/Button), I'd say Button was the least "done" - remember there were a lot of rumours about him going to Williams which I still wish had happened, honestly.
I would have preferred Button at Willians over Massa. If stroll doesn't improve much maybe they can dump him at the end of the season for Button. I'm all for making way for young talent, but only if it actually includes the talent part.
 

Aiii

So not worth it
Stroll is neither getting dumped this year, or in the coming years. That fountain of Stroll money will allow him to keep that seat for years.
 

Danielsan

Member
Stroll is neither getting dumped this year, or in the coming years. That fountain of Stroll money will allow him to keep that seat for years.
I think I remember Ross Brawn wanting to do something about pay drivers in F1 in order to improve the overall level of drivers in F1. I know it's dumb to get my hopes up, but we'll see.
 

tomtom94

Member
I think I remember Ross Brawn wanting to do something about pay drivers in F1 in order to improve the overall level of drivers in F1. I know it's dumb to get my hopes up, but we'll see.

Unless he has the power to make sponsors stick an extra 0 on the end of their cheques that ain't happening.
 

Aiii

So not worth it
Stroll is not a pay-driver, Stroll is a "I'm gonna buy 20% of your team and bankroll half your spending, so give my son a seat"-driver.

Brawn wants smaller teams to get more income through FOM so they don't have to resort to pay drivers to make the end of the season.
 

Aiii

So not worth it
So happy Pat is on the Sky team this weekend and not Herbert. Give the man more money and have him there every weekend, please.
 

Xando

Member
Looks like Kimi will have to get a new engine

edit

More specifically seems like only the turbo has to be replaced according to Sky germany.
 
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