Seductivpancakes
Member
People still think if they have sex after no, it's not rape.
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Game of Thrones *NO BOOK DISCUSSION* |OT| Season 7 - [Read the OP]
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People still think if they have sex after no, it's not rape.
Initially yes, but he seemed to enjoy it not even a second later. If he really didn't want to, he would've expressed that in a much clearer manner, but he didn't. My girlfriend might on occasions give me a "no" as well, but after a little flirting and playing around in the bed, the sex is on in less than 5 minutes. I wouldn't call that rape lol.
The Artisan
Member
is it telling about this show that people have to debate whether certain sex scenes were rape scenes or not
this isn't the first time it's happened
this isn't the first time it's happened
'No', and saying nothing else after is pretty clear.
Do you think the scene with Jaime and Cersei a couple seasons back was rape? She says stop, not here, not here, and then starts physically to consent.
She's clearly emotionally more stable and powerful than Jaime is in the new episode's scene, his first response is no and she forces herself on him, it's irregardless that he then has sex with her - and if you think the last scene was rape this is also.
If he said no and she stopped and respected his wish they wouldn't have had sex.
I highly disagree that the recent one was rape, I do agree that the other one was rape though. The reason I disagree with the recent one is because, honestly, it looked like he changed his stance on the whole situation the second they started to make out. He was completely fine with having his dick in her mouth for example.
Looked more to me like submission, he was stood upright in a static position like he was being taken advantage of. The shot of her grabbing his ass I think portrayed well that she had all the power in this scene.
Conversely in the scene that you say is rape she jumps on him and continues to make out with him, from what she says in that scene her main complaint for not wanting it is the location, she says not here, implying okay, but somewhere else. So in that scene in the end she seemed fine with it? Jaime in this week's scene simply just says 'no'.
I don't understand how one is rape and the other is not. And I'm sorry, but him standing still like a deer in headlights as she performs a sex act on him with the assumption of 'he has his dick in her mouth he's lovin' it!', really overlooks the initial 'no'.
I jumped to a conclusion on the old "rape" scene, because I wrote my thoughts on the matter from your description of it. I haven't seen the scene since it premiered, so it has been a while, sorry for that. I think I have to re-watch it then. I still stand on the recent one not being rape, just by looking at his facial expression once they started to make out. It looks like he is overly enjoying it, even with the initial "no". If he REALLY didn't want to he would've either shouted out a few additional "no's" or physically removed her. But he didn't, since I think he enjoyed it, and it only took her a second of convincing to get him on board after the initial no.
The Artisan
Member
The only difference is that in the old scene when Cersei physically starts to consent, if she instead did not consent and continued to say no, I don't think Jaime would've stopped.
In the new scene if Jaime really wanted to stop it he could have I think.
Little Old Man
Member
General thoughts on the season.
I think a lot of potential within the storytelling this season is being squandered due to the limitations of only 7 60+ minute episodes.
Now a lot of people point to apparent warp powers of some characters as a main consequence. The truth is that being such a complex series trying to run the passage of time and the many storylines in sync is impossible, as writers have attested to, and so it's been a frequent trope of the series throughout with characters getting from A to B very rapidly, and others seemingly dragging their heels (Varys in s6e10 condensing the better part of a year into a few minutes being one). However the time constraints here make it worse: there's such a premium placed on exposition scenes, or dialogue to set up/explain movements that most are being cut out. Further in seaons past there would have been 1+ episode breaks in certain stories to allow breathing room and storylines to catch up a little; an example would be an episode between Euron attacking the Greyjoys getting to Kings Landing, and then hot tailing it round to Lannisport.
Which leads into the next problem. Every episode of GOT has a central plot or two, but certainly had enough time in the past spare to devote to sub plots, allowing for the introduction of minor characters, new locales, ideas, institutions etc. Plots like Sam at the citadel are cut short because there's a time premium, limiting our exposition of Old Town and what Sam is up to the bare essentials. This results in Sam sorting out Jorah ASAP, whereas I feel in past seasons there would have been more twists and turns to the plot. Again, these sub plots would have also taken breaks for an episode or two to allow some passage of time. Even Winterfell scenes this episode would have in past seasons had more time to devote to the reunion, more dialogue, more character driven moments, rather than having to focus on story beats and moving the plot along.
The final problem for me is rushing through major developments. High Garden falling was a big deal to me, especially with Olenna. Whilst she had a great final scene, the build up was non existent, which limited the final pay off.
She jumps from Dragonstone to High Garden, presumably to marshall her troops.
Tarly seemed to be considering his choices last episode, with no time to showing his deliberations over his decision to switch sides
No other houses from the Reach have been introduced properly in the past I know, but none are mentioned here either. Tarly was with Lannister forces, but what about his troops? Other minor houses? Did all of Highgarden's troops stick with Olenna or defect (after all they must have had several thousand)? Are they at the coast to be transported north? Was Highgarden as lightly defended as Winterfell after Robb left? Less? More? Was there a siege or were the gates stormed? Did it all end in a single afternoon? Didn't see any siege towers or ladders though?
Being robbed of this build up/strategy talks/background makes matters feel rushed. Note that I'm not saying that I wanted to see the battle. But compare this with the Battle of Oxcross or the Whispering Woods. Each was built up with strategy table discussions, with Robb seemingly making a huge cock up with the Lannister spy, or the scene with the Lannister sentries joking around before being attacked by Greywind. We as the audience have in those cases a better idea of the events leading up to those battles, the participants, the strategies, the time of day, hell even the geography of the battle, even though we never see any actual fighting. The pay off was there for me. I felt that I had a good idea as the viewer as to what occured before, during and after the batte, without seeing it first hand. But I didn't have that with High Garden.
I understand that in this particular case the events were meant to surprise the viewer, but even an extra few minutes would have made a huge difference for me. Minutes they don't have due to the 7 episode limit.
I think a lot of potential within the storytelling this season is being squandered due to the limitations of only 7 60+ minute episodes.
Now a lot of people point to apparent warp powers of some characters as a main consequence. The truth is that being such a complex series trying to run the passage of time and the many storylines in sync is impossible, as writers have attested to, and so it's been a frequent trope of the series throughout with characters getting from A to B very rapidly, and others seemingly dragging their heels (Varys in s6e10 condensing the better part of a year into a few minutes being one). However the time constraints here make it worse: there's such a premium placed on exposition scenes, or dialogue to set up/explain movements that most are being cut out. Further in seaons past there would have been 1+ episode breaks in certain stories to allow breathing room and storylines to catch up a little; an example would be an episode between Euron attacking the Greyjoys getting to Kings Landing, and then hot tailing it round to Lannisport.
Which leads into the next problem. Every episode of GOT has a central plot or two, but certainly had enough time in the past spare to devote to sub plots, allowing for the introduction of minor characters, new locales, ideas, institutions etc. Plots like Sam at the citadel are cut short because there's a time premium, limiting our exposition of Old Town and what Sam is up to the bare essentials. This results in Sam sorting out Jorah ASAP, whereas I feel in past seasons there would have been more twists and turns to the plot. Again, these sub plots would have also taken breaks for an episode or two to allow some passage of time. Even Winterfell scenes this episode would have in past seasons had more time to devote to the reunion, more dialogue, more character driven moments, rather than having to focus on story beats and moving the plot along.
The final problem for me is rushing through major developments. High Garden falling was a big deal to me, especially with Olenna. Whilst she had a great final scene, the build up was non existent, which limited the final pay off.
She jumps from Dragonstone to High Garden, presumably to marshall her troops.
Tarly seemed to be considering his choices last episode, with no time to showing his deliberations over his decision to switch sides
No other houses from the Reach have been introduced properly in the past I know, but none are mentioned here either. Tarly was with Lannister forces, but what about his troops? Other minor houses? Did all of Highgarden's troops stick with Olenna or defect (after all they must have had several thousand)? Are they at the coast to be transported north? Was Highgarden as lightly defended as Winterfell after Robb left? Less? More? Was there a siege or were the gates stormed? Did it all end in a single afternoon? Didn't see any siege towers or ladders though?
Being robbed of this build up/strategy talks/background makes matters feel rushed. Note that I'm not saying that I wanted to see the battle. But compare this with the Battle of Oxcross or the Whispering Woods. Each was built up with strategy table discussions, with Robb seemingly making a huge cock up with the Lannister spy, or the scene with the Lannister sentries joking around before being attacked by Greywind. We as the audience have in those cases a better idea of the events leading up to those battles, the participants, the strategies, the time of day, hell even the geography of the battle, even though we never see any actual fighting. The pay off was there for me. I felt that I had a good idea as the viewer as to what occured before, during and after the batte, without seeing it first hand. But I didn't have that with High Garden.
I understand that in this particular case the events were meant to surprise the viewer, but even an extra few minutes would have made a huge difference for me. Minutes they don't have due to the 7 episode limit.
This is quite neat.
Ocarina_117
Banned
He most likely isn't and it's just Tyrion being a dumbass.
Show is taking the path of least resistance to the end.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Watching the siege of King's Landing and holy shit....battle scenes in this show are just fantastic. When they actually show battle scenes instead of skirmishes it'll look phenomenal.
peteykirch
Member
Euron will fist her with Jaime's golden hand.
Peter Ian Staker
Member
Well a sorcerer castrated him during a ritual when he was still a child.
He hates magic as bad as the Hound hates fire.
The Artisan
Member
I think Varys is telling the truth. He is treacherous, but only when he feels like the person he betrays, deserves it.
He didn't want Ned Stark killed, I think he got the hint that Ned was a good guy.
https://youtu.be/PW6wfXPeJTw?t=3m45s
see here, he even tries to stop it, and knew fucking Petyr was behind it if not involved. If he wasn't really the man of the people then I don't think he would've cared that Ned's getting killed. He later calls Tyrion compassionate, why the hell would he care about compassion if he doesn't care about the people?
And yeah, Tyrion is just being an idiot. Or at least, intentional or not, that is what the show is delineating. First he does it in Mereen when he initiates a negotiation with the slaveowners and then rewarding the slaveowners with women which visually shows Missandei discomforted by it. That goes south, and I'm surprised Dany was not angrier with him about it, like, fuckin everything about it.
It's okay to keep slavery going on for X amount of time? WTF?
And to show good will, here's 3 prostitutes for you. smfh. Tyrion is straight up treating women like objects - practically like slaves too even though they probably got paid.
Then he starts being Dany's military commander and he doesn't do a good job of it. Hell, this would've been a good time to give GW some exposure and have Dany promote him as not only commander of the Unsullied but Lord Commander of the whole dragon army, replacing Ser Barristan. Well, there is still time for that lol - I hope Dany stops taking Tyrion's advice.
On a side note though, the best advice he's given this season was inviting Jon Snow to Dragonstone. In fact, that should've been the first thing he did; if Tyrion invited Jon Snow to Dragonstone first before starting the war maybe so many of their strategies wouldn't have got fucked.
The Artisan
Member
it's entertaining to see him lose confidence sometimes, though.
it was very entertaining to see Melisandre lose confidence last season. As soon as that foot soldier says to Stannis "Half your men rode away this morning..." the look on her face after that? Her eyes? Let's just say I never thought I'd see her make a face like that.
There's more of her losing confidence and then it all culminates in that confrontation with Davos & Jon.
I never thought I'd see Varys behaving the way he did when Kinvara was there. He was different when Dany confronted him though. He was kinda biting back even though at the end he still just was kinda suckin up to her.
Seductivpancakes
Member
Here's hoping that's what we get next episode.
His stump looked sad. No wonder he wasn't really in the mood.
The Artisan
Member
there's one line in this episode that keeps confusing me, when Jon says "it's hard for me to fathom, it really is. if someone told me about the night king..."
when Jon said it's hard for him to fathom, does he mean if he didn't know about the night king and someone tried to warn him about them he would dismiss it as Dany did? Or did he mean that if someone told him, he would immediately start preparing?
this confuses me because he pauses for a second, and then says "you probably don't believe me"after that, so I want to know what thought came to him for him to say that.
when Jon said it's hard for him to fathom, does he mean if he didn't know about the night king and someone tried to warn him about them he would dismiss it as Dany did? Or did he mean that if someone told him, he would immediately start preparing?
this confuses me because he pauses for a second, and then says "you probably don't believe me"after that, so I want to know what thought came to him for him to say that.
He's just saying that he cannot fathom how so many people dismiss the idea that the White Walkers are real, because if someone told him about The Night King, he'd listen and believe them.
The entire conversation on Dragonstore is just Dan and Dave having a conversation with themselves. It's fun to watch, but none of the dialogue feels organic to these characters.
Ocarina_117
Banned
In season 2 when KL receives a raven from the wall asking for more men and warning of the dead rising. Tyrion warns the rest of the small council this may have some truth, saying he knows Mormont is not a liar.
In the last episode he acts as if it's the first he ever heard of it.
Should he not have reacted a lot differently?
It seemed more hypothetical. As if Jon was saying if I were in your shoes and someone told me about the WWs and the dead rising I'd also find it hard to imagine etc.
In the last episode he acts as if it's the first he ever heard of it.
Should he not have reacted a lot differently?
It seemed more hypothetical. As if Jon was saying if I were in your shoes and someone told me about the WWs and the dead rising I'd also find it hard to imagine etc.
The entire bit about Aemon warning the lords of Westeros was just a big tease. No one believed him.
Seductivpancakes
Member
Jon has seen White Walkers, wights, wargs, giants, mammoths, and now dragons. He probably has the most complete pokedex.
I don't think this is the case 'cus we've seen him get annoyed having to explain to a bunch of people, even the ones that do believe him, just how insanely powerful The Night King is and how they cannot be bothered with petty shit related to Thrones anymore.
Also the Thenns, Hornfoots, Ice River Clans
Not with Bran's hacks.
Ocarina_117
Banned
I rewatched the scene but can't find the line
I recall taking the scene as jon trying to sympathise with dany. Saying if someone came to me and talked about white walkers I'd find it hard to picture too. Think I need to rewatch it and find the line.
Edit - found the scene. Yeah it's out of frustration, I thought it was in the conversation with dany but it was with tyrion.
Damn the scene falls apart on repeat viewing. Jon talking about WWs then dany going off on a tangent (Emilia was quite bad in this scene, even by her standards) came across strangely. It didn't flow naturally I guess. Idk, the scene definitely pales in comparison to Ollena and Jaimie.
Tyrion definitely seemed to take the message seriously in s2 as Varys, Cersei and LF scoffed.
The Artisan
Member
word, so the former thing I said
those guys are getting a bad ass rep for their dumbass civil war show.
Game of Thrones is genius because of GRRM, not them. I don't care how much from seasons 6,7, and 8 are original, it is still the same storyline that GRRM is telling
Well yeah, I'm sure things happen similarly. But the mark of a good story isn't he least what happens but how it happens.
You can tell the simplest, most straightforward story in a highly engaging way.
Season 7's dialogue just seems it's retreading familiar ground where characters meet and repeat things that have been said before in order to reach the conclusion that they must be either enemies or friends.
You can tell the simplest, most straightforward story in a highly engaging way.
Season 7's dialogue just seems it's retreading familiar ground where characters meet and repeat things that have been said before in order to reach the conclusion that they must be either enemies or friends.
The Artisan
Member
yeah well the actual dialogue I don't think GRRM had much or anything to do with that just the script and what not.
Ocarina_117
Banned
They did some fantastic stuff the first few seasons. By fantastic stuff I mean their own original scenes.
I feel they only really planned for the red wedding at first. Season 5 was a sloppy buffer of sorts, them hoping that GRRM would release a book for them to work with again. When this didn't happen it seemed that a lot of care and thought disappeared as they hope to finish the series as quickly as they can and move on. I hope the ending they deliver is satisfactory, the last few seasons don't hold a candle to the earlier few. When the sun has set, no candle can replace it.
I also feel this season in particular is a huge departure from what we're going to get in the last two books.
Also, why the fuck does Randyl Tarly not give a shit his century old family heirloom was stolen?
Randyll: I would betray Olenna, but I have to find my sword.
Jaime: Uh...Olenna has your sword. Yes, she stole it.
Randyll: It's war then.
Seductivpancakes
Member
The Artisan
Member
That is true, they did come up with some good additions (the harsh word would be filler) to the first season, but keep in mind they were additions to an already told story, A game of thrones was well already published by that time.
Also GRRM said the ending is supposed to be LOTR-style bittersweet. Suffice to say I think Tolkein was a huge influence on him, even though he's also got his criticisms
SurrenderDorothy
Banned
We don't know his reaction to his sword being stolen, he wouldn't let others know that the powerful Randyl Tarly had his sword taken by his disappointing son.
He probably cares but has more pressing matters.
I think it's just the speed of everything happening so fast. What would be the reasoning for Varys to immediately start double crossing Dany? Is he truly like LF and just wants chaos and mayhem? Doesn't seem like the character he's been propped up to be for the past 6 seasons.
Poor Varys
Heshinsi and others should learn from these soul snatchings. Our Lord is real....or Bran.
I thought you said we were friends? Oh and don't try to circle this shit back to Bran lol. There's no way Bran is asking for child sacrifices and the mutilation of little boys.
I also took that pause to indicate he just realised how crazy he sounds, to someone who would have little or no prior knowledge of White Walkers or the army of the dead. When he took the time to place himself in that person's shoes, he pauses because it does sound crazy as hell. Hence the bit where he asks Tyrion how he can prove something exists to people who don't believe such things are real.
RyanardoDaVinci
Member
My bets on the dragons:
1. Viserion - gets ganked by a ballista at King's Landing because Viserys was a punk bitch.
2. Rhaegal - everyone seems to think the Night King is gonna get himself a rez'd ice dragon, if he does it won't be Viserion, too far south. So I'd say Jon and co. head up to Eastwatch to deliver Tormund some dragonglass and shit goes down with the white walkers. Things look dire but Dany swoops in with Drogon and Rhaegal, burning zombies. Rhaegal bites it and Mr. Cool Ice rezzes him up an ice dragon.
3. Drogon only dies if Dany dies.
Yup, that's exactly how that scene played out for me.
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
im expecting Drogon to bite it.
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