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[fertygo]

Is it me or is the hunter tavern brawl deck straigh garbage?

Its probably the best recipe with warrior one actually

its full of strong card that curve nicely

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

Gives you a 5-drop and a 3-drop for 8 using 3 cards. Still no good.

Don't forget it thins your deck by 2-3 cards. Still pretty weak example though.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Its probably the best recipe with warrior one actually

its full of strong card that curve nicely

I've tried 5 times now and lost to mage, warrior, priest, warlock, warlock and none of them were even close. If there's a curve I'm not drawing it.

 

[Yaboosh]

I had the tavern brawl quest so just used warlock to try to get it done quick and damn if zoo isn't a fun class to play.

It isn't nearly as brainless as dragon warrior or aggro shaman. Not as thinky as others of course, but still lots of decisions to be made on nearly every turn.



Edit: ikealyou's eye roll game is super strong. Every goddamn play his opponent makes causes the super eye roll.

 

[Dahbomb]

Xixo with the Bolf tech in Cthunlock!

 

[Yaboosh]

Xixo with the Bolf tech in Cthunlock!

Lol, it came from Shifter Zerus.

 

[Portugeezer]

Refreshment Vendor was a misplay (with Bolf on the board) in the end when he was off by 3 damage to pop the ice block... he needed to tap for Reno there.

 

[Dahbomb]

Lol, it came from Shifter Zerus.

I know it was sarcasm lol.

But Bolf isn't bad in Control Lock decks when the meta is filled with burn from hand cards. Though that meta does not exist right now so very little reason to play that card.

 

[Yaboosh]

That sap topdeck was so sick. But boohoo aggro shaman.

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

I think people complain too much about the 4 mana 7/7. I mean, first they're avoiding the fact that it has 2 mana overload. And I don't see nearly as much people complaining about 4/10 statline, which is in some ways even stronger than 7/7 because it doesn't have overload. I just easily sweeped my opponent in the brawl because I got that 4/10 on turn 3.

My play order was:

turn 1:
coin + cthun 2 drop
wild growth
2 drop number 2 + innervate + 4/10

Wasn't even close. It's a bit of the cards lining up so well, but I see plenty of sick druid openers so often. Druids never seem to lack the ramp now and are much more consistent than they used to be. I'm sure some will see this as salt, but it's not. It's more or less criticism about shaman complaints.

 

[Karsticles]

I think people complain too much about the 4 mana 7/7. I mean, first they're avoiding the fact that it has 2 mana overload. And I don't see nearly as much people complaining about 4/10 statline, which is in some ways even stronger than 7/7 because it doesn't have overload. I just easily sweeped my opponent in the brawl because I got that 4/10 on turn 3.

My play order was:

turn 1:
coin + cthun 2 drop
wild growth
2 drop number 2 + innervate + 4/10

Wasn't even close. It's a bit of the cards lining up so well, but I see plenty of sick druid openers so often. Druids never seem to lack the ramp now and are much more consistent than they used to be. I'm sure some will see this as salt, but it's not. It's more or less criticism about shaman complaints.

I think it's more that Aggro Shaman used to peak in its curve with Spirit Wolves. Now it has a massive 4-drop after it has already laid down Trogg and some beefy minions, and it all just seems overwhelming. In contrast, a Druid 4/10 is just another typical beefy ramp Druid 4-drop. Also, Druid has very little face damage, so if it takes you a turn or two to take care of that 4/10, it's not the end of the world in most cases. In contrast, taking 7 face damage from an Aggro Shaman is just one step closer to dying to a bunch of burst spells or Doomhammer + Rockbiter.

 

[Dahbomb]

You don't instantly lose the game if you don't have an answer to a 4/10 right away.

And a 4/10 on 4 is not that easy to make anyway.

Aggro Shaman's more expensive card is the 4 mana 7/7, the rest of their cards are cheap so they can take the occasional overload hits. Plus they always have a 0 mana 5/5 Taunt to fall back on when the overload starts stacking.

The only criticism of aggro Shaman is that it's boring to criticize it because everyone knows it's blatantly disgusting as it is. It's like complaining the sky is too blue.


In Cthun Druid you are playing usually vanilla minions in early game or ramp. A 2/3 is nothing compared to the Shaman 1/2 drops and when you fall behind as Cthun Druid the Aggro Shaman is going to crush you. Stuff like Cthun Druid looks real nice in the Brawl where everyone is playing non optimized Blizzard decks and even then people will get rolled over by their Zoo deck.


Edit: Just as we were discussing, this Aggro Shaman just demolished a Zoo player with two Troggs on board and top decked a Faceless for the win. Disgusting. That's Aggro Shaman's "worst" match up by the way.

 

[Dahbomb]

LMAO @ this Likeabawse dude popping off after that guy misplayed for the set win.

 

[patchday]

yeah Bawse played like a gansta- sippin' tea and just slinging cards

 

[thepotatoman]

Likeabawse should be made Yogg pope after how much he praised Yogg in that interview.

 

[Dahbomb]

This Yogg here was very important in the tournament, GeorgeC needed it to qualify into top 8:

https://youtu.be/zpTea52nt6c


This and the Shifter Zerus into Bolf against the Freeze Mage were the highlights of the tournament. Rest of the tournament was typical ladder stuff of Zoo, Aggro Shaman and Token Druid just minion trading and going face. Everyone banned Warrior.

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

I'm definitely not trying to say aggro shaman is a weak deck or deserves no criticism. I just think the buzz about that one card is a bit overdone. I think tunnel trogg is a much bigger problem than the 7/7 is. And I don't feel that way about mana wyrm, although it is borderline.

Tunnel trogg reminds me more of UT where you can play the guy on turn 1 and keep playing aggressive minions while ramping him up, sometimes even 2-3 stats per card. Whereas mana wyrm on turn 1 is only ramped up by spells, and it only grows 1 stat per card played. TT is just much easier to ramp up and do so while playing aggressive. Frostbolt face is a much much weaker play than playing a totem golem.

Then there is tuskar totemic... which I think they've realized their problem in that as time goes on a card like this can pass from okay to too strong of an RNG swing in the matter of a single rotation. Hence the new shaman card only summons basic totems.

And yeah, I agree that the 5/5 taunt is a bit much. I don't think it hits 0 mana as apathy suggested 90% of the time, but even summoning a single totem gets you a 4 mana 5/5 with taunt, and that's already better than any other minion at that cost.

This Yogg here was very important in the tournament, GeorgeC needed it to qualify into top 8:

https://youtu.be/zpTea52nt6c


This and the Shifter Zerus into Bolf against the Freeze Mage were the highlights of the tournament. Rest of the tournament was typical ladder stuff of Zoo, Aggro Shaman and Token Druid just minion trading and going face. Everyone banned Warrior.

I watched that yogg live heheh. I commented yesterday something something about aggro shaman/zoo losing to yogg was justice.

Yogg just decided another game. But the guy who lost was running zoo and doomhammer shaman, so fuck him

 

[Dahbomb]

The 4 mana 7/7 is a meme at this point though not an unfounded one. Faceless Flamewreathe doesn't roll off the tongue or the keyboard quite like 4 mana 7/7.

Also I personally think that both Tunnel Trogg and Thing of the Deep are BETTER than the 4 mana 7/7. Thing of the Deep sees play in every Shaman deck.

Tuskar Totemic isn't the strongest Shaman card but it's the most toxic. High roll on turn 3 into 4 mana 7/7 to insantly win the game. Just terrible card design all around.

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

Ivory Knight is delivering. Sometimes you need a big heal and sometimes you need the spell, and when it hits both it's incredible. Got an 8 heal off lay on hands. I don't think this tempo warrior even stood a chance. To his credit he didn't give up after this board state although he should have:

He was running a weird ass deck, I guess incredibly anti-aggro tech into a tempo warrior shell. He had armorsmith AND protect the king and the usual tempo warrior suspects like frothing, varian wrynn, gromm (as depicted stolen by sylvanas).

edit:
Oh yeah, he was also running elise and battle rage.

I've seen a "control" deck run battle rage before. It was a very aggressive c'thun deck though.

 

[V-Faction]

Just terrible card design all around.

Nah, bro. Here's terrible card design:

And the "wonderful" part about all of them is that they're all Classic cards, so they'll be around forever. Yay.

 

[FeD.nL]

I just think Shaman is inherently flawed.

Like just come up with a consistent vision for the class. Instead of providing these random overtuned things and see what sticks make up your mind. Just make all weapons and spells cause overload and have minions that work with overload for example. Instead we have RNG baked into the class its core, and way overtuned cards to try to fix an inherent flaw in the class.

Shaman will always be either top tier or shit because the class is just built on a flawed foundation.

I really wonder if Brode would be able to tell where he sees the classes in 18 months. I really hoped that standard would also mean that they would have a plan for all classes but so far it doesn't seem like it.

 

[Szadek]

For me it always looked like we got standard, because didn't feel like nerfing half of the gvg/naxx cards and mysterious challenger.

 

[ZealousD]

Nah, bro. Here's terrible card design:

And the "wonderful" part about all of them is that they're all Classic cards, so they'll be around forever. Yay.

Forked Lightning and Windspeaker aren't horrible design. Just underpowered.

 

[patchday]

Nah, bro. Here's terrible card design:

And the "wonderful" part about all of them is that they're all Classic cards, so they'll be around forever. Yay.

why do you think the bottom 2 cards are terrible? it might be a big help to newbies starting out. This is why designers get paid the big bucks (well at least at ben brode's tier)- they have to consider the entire populace (not just the top 30% where most of us are so its easy for us to turn up our noses and call cards stinky lol)

 

[Dahbomb]

Nah, bro. Here's terrible card design:

And the "wonderful" part about all of them is that they're all Classic cards, so they'll be around forever. Yay.

These aren't terrible card designs, they are just at worst over balanced.

There's no way you can make Dust Devil any better than it is. You can probably give Windspeaker an extra stat and remove one overload from Forked Lightning.

Aside from Forked Lightning, these cards don't have massive RNG swing potential which was what I was getting at. Like Windspeaker isn't giving a random minion Windfury.


Though I do agree that Shaman along with Hunter is bottom 2 worst designed classes. Here are some actual badly designed card:

Siltfin Spiriwalker: A waste of a card considering Cult Master exists with a better effect. Shaman might use other minions and hero power so Cult Master makes more sense for draw.

Dunemaul Shaman: I don't even know where to start with how awfully designed this card is

 

[patchday]

what a dramatic day I might have to take a break. since I pulled 3 legendaries that can help mage (Archmage, Yogg, & then Rhonin this morning) I figure I should give it a go.

Took it to Wild and Casual for a test run and did ok. Hopped right into Standard ranked and lose like 2 ranks. Finally got a winning streak and passed up my earlier position lol. Lots of tense matches. Yeah some were very lucky Yogg moments like when he gave him self charge & that one time just now where after he dies I somehow get Deathwing to help me lethal lol

edit-> My deck is a variation similar to Sottle's Yogg Tempo Mage deck. But I use Archmage instead of Ragnaros

 

[V-Faction]

Forked Lightning and Windspeaker aren't horrible design. Just underpowered.

I mean, I feel like Windfury and it's place in the game as a whole needs some retweaking compared to say, Deathrattle or Divine Shield, but those cards ain't getting changed any time soon, so... maybe you would prefer 'designed with an older school of thought.'

why do you think the bottom 2 cards are terrible? it might be a big help to newbies starting out. This is why designers get paid the big bucks (well at least at ben brode's tier)- they have to consider the entire populace (not just the top 30% where most of us are so its easy for us to turn up our noses and call cards stinky lol)

Not sure what helping out newbies has to do with it my fellow. Something like Tuskar Totemic, which is being labled as toxic but actually has some use and synergizes well with the class, compared to the "fairer" Windspeaker which has been there from the beginning and has seen... 0%(?) competitive play... I'd take the Tuskar

These aren't terrible card designs, they are just at worst over balanced.

There's no way you can make Dust Devil any better than it is. You can probably give Windspeaker an extra stat and remove one overload from Forked Lightning.

Aside from Forked Lightning, these cards don't have massive RNG swing potential which was what I was getting at. Like Windspeaker isn't giving a random minion Windfury.

They did make Dust Devil better. They created Whirling Zap-o-matic, remember? It was actually costed appropriately. And then it went away.

For Forked Lightning, one of their card themes ultimately didn't pan out the way they intended. Same reason Cleave doesn't get run. Now both are dead weight.

RNG is the real culprit, I agree. But that 1/7 chance to get Totem Golem is the most worrisome part, is it not? Or whatever Totem you happen to need at the moment, and if you don't get it, you may have just wasted your turn. So I find that personally balanced.

Let me ask you this: If it read Discover a random Totem and summon it', would you find that somehow fairer?

 

[patchday]

Not sure what helping out newbies has to do with it my fellow. Something like Tuskar Totemic, which is being labled as toxic but actually has some use and synergizes well with the class, compared to the "fairer" Windspeaker which has been there from the beginning and has seen... 0%(?) competitive play... I'd take the Tuskar

but we're not talking bout competitive that has nothing to do with it. I am talking bout the majority- you know the 95% of us that don't compete.

When I started out I used cards you call 'bad design' with my Shaman and did crazy well. Sure- it was just Casual matches but it helped me unlock more cards

Like Frodan says- gotta think out of the box

 

[Dahbomb]

Card would be broken if you could discover a Totem and summon that card for free. Mostly because it's very unlikely to have a result where you don't get Golem, Mana Tide or Flametongue. And some of the hero power totems are good in certain situaions, like if you need a taunt to save yourself or get spell power for a Lightning Storm.

The card was stated and balanced around RNG and back then Shamans had the Healing Totem to decrease odds of getting a good deal.


People time and time again under value the impact of early game RNG. A stray Flame Juggler juggle on a Fiery Bat can decide a game.

Let's put it another way... they print a card "Roll a dice, if you get 5 or 6 you win, if not you lose"... is that a good card to print? No its not. Now realize how many cards in the game follow that pattern where they roll high early game and result in snowball effect that cause a game won without as drastic of a drawback. Hell now they even have a top end coin flip in Yogg.

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

I've always been a fan of forked lightning. It receives double spellpower bonus and even though you ultimately end up paying 3 mana for the effect. I think it's actually better than cleave because shaman better supports a spellpower playstyle, and increasingly so with the new releases. Warrior only just started running azure drakes because of dragon synergy/tempo style becoming strong. Maybe we see shamans revisit forked lightning if spellpower shaman style becomes worth running?

 

[Yaboosh]

Does the $10 Hay Day amazon promotion still work?

 

[V-Faction]

but we're not talking bout competitive that has nothing to do with it. I am talking bout the majority- you know the 95% of us that don't compete.

When I started out I used cards you call 'bad design' with my Shaman and did crazy well. Sure- it was just Casual matches but it helped me unlock more cards

Like Frodan says- gotta think out of the box

I guess I'm not following then. Because like DahBomb said, Shaman had some horrid cards in GVG that you wouldn't want to play regardless of being a newbie OR a high-level competitor. And you had to pay for those.

 

[Dahbomb]

Yea we are not focused on competitive level here, just design. As in what value a card brings to the game.

There are a lot of competitive cards that I feel don't bring much to the table for the game and some non competitive cards that I think have a lot of value. Inner Fire is one of those cards.

For example, I think Inspire cards were good design but didn't deliver on the balance end.

 

[patchday]

I guess I'm not following then. Because like DahBomb said, Shaman had some horrid cards in GVG that you wouldn't want to play regardless of being a newbie OR a high-level competitor. And you had to pay for those.

GvG was before my time. I started in WoTG. Anyway, I'm thinking I really shouldn't be debating 'card design' since I'm really new to CCG (this my first Hearthstone game).

My main goal is to try to lay low here in this thread and soak up some knowledge lol

 

[Fishlake]

I would not say it was bad card design that got shaman to where it is. I think it is the fact that the only hero power shaman has had no synergy for most of the game's life. Every other hero power can do something useful for you but with shaman you have a 1/4 chance of getting what you want on an empty board.

This meant that shaman had no identity outside of overload which was always overvalued until the more recent expansions. Then a short time since BRM shaman received cards that has synergy with its hero power and overload. This new synergies can be seen as overpowered but I think they are just filling a void that should have never existed.

Ultimately I think it is the lack of choice in hero power that you can blame for shamans problems and other classes like priest. Cards have to be specifically crafted for these classes and the classic expansion did not provide them with enough for an identity.

 

[V-Faction]

GvG was before my time. I started in WoTG. Anyway, I'm thinking I really shouldn't be debating 'card design' since I'm really new to CCG (this my first Hearthstone game).

My main goal is to try to lay low here in this thread and soak up some knowledge lol

Alrighty then. All good.

Moving to Inspire, it's clear how much the backlash affected Blizzard. They have dropped the mechanic COMPLETELY after the Community went sour on it and Joust. And now the sad part is, that has led them to never give it another shot; never try to re-balance it for a stronger purpose. I would love to see the mechanic brought back, but never shall we see it because the HS team got their pride hurt.

Compare that to Discover, which the community showered with love and admiration, so what happens? It's brought back, in multiple cards, in multiple expansions! No exclusivity excuses there (which is what they said about Joust/Inspire I believe). Now they're never letting that puppy go.

 

[Dahbomb]

Joust is definitely a bad design though. That should never comeback unless they revamp it.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

There's nothing wrong with joust except that it takes forever to resolve.

 

[Dahbomb]

There's nothing wrong with joust except that it takes forever to resolve.

You forgot that ties mean you lose the Joust which is really silly.

 

[V-Faction]

Joust is definitely a bad design though. That should never comeback unless they revamp it.

Ironically, the best designed Joust card is Healing Wave, a Shaman card. Definitely more useful in a spell.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

You forgot that ties mean you lose the Joust which is really silly.

It's very similar to clash from MTG and that's how it worked there as well.

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

I like joust. But the cards need more attention than they were given. Elekk is great because it guarantees (assuming you win) to pull a minion, perhaps even a specific minion, in a heavy spell/weapon deck. So it works amazing with yogg hunter.

On the other hand, some of the other joust cards don't have that unique ability and just give a minor increase in power to the card itself.

And why is it always draw minions? Why not a joust that draws and compares spells? Why always cost when it could be attack or health values? Joust was never given a keyword, so each "joust" could be different than the others.

Joust is great design because you can build decks around that type of effect. It falls short in other areas, like specific card design rather than the joust as a concept.

 

[V-Faction]

It's very similar to clash from MTG and that's how it worked there as well.

What other effects from MTG might we still see in Hearthstone? Is there a list?

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

What other effects from MTG might we still see in Hearthstone? Is there a list?

there's even a wiki article about all of them

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Magic:_The_Gathering_keywords

I'd wager, wish, we'll eventually get a graveyard in a big update. Pretty sure we'll get minions that can attack through taunts eventually. Exalted would be so much better in HS than it has been in MTG.

 

[Heropon]

I haven't been able to play ranked this month and rank 20 is full of gold portrait farmers or people that don't play that much but have some crazy decks... This is going to be tough.

 

[Super Nothing]

There's nothing wrong with joust except that it takes forever to resolve.

It's extremely hard to make a good deck around the Joust mechanic because you need early game cards or else you'll get run over by aggro decks. Your early game cards then cause you to lose out on some crucial Jousts. And most of the Joust cards are only slightly better than their non-Joust counterparts, but only if they win the Joust. If they lose, they are strictly worse cards. And then the Joust initiator loses on ties. This drastically skews the odds against you. If they just made it a rematch on tied Jousts, the mechanic would probably be a lot better (although the animation could go on for a really long time).

 

[Salex_]

Does the $10 Hay Day amazon promotion still work?

Yep, still works. This promotion is amazing.

 

[Papercuts]

I think Joust has some unexplored potential but I got soured on it a lot by Tuskarr Jouster when I tied an important joust to a face hunter of all things...some of the cards were just too all-in in the joust winning. 5/5 on 5 that does nothing vs. a 5/5 that heals for 8 is huge. A 5/6 that gains divine shield AND taunt for the win is huge. If Master Jouster already had taunt, or divine shield and gained the other it wouldn't feel as bad to lose with.

This is one reason why I like healing wave since it will atleast do something. Elekk really grew on me when I saw creative decks like Yogg n Load where you can almost guarantee a win by barely using minions beyond really high cost ones. Most of the joust cards are just frustrating to use though.

Card would be broken if you could discover a Totem and summon that card for free. Mostly because it's very unlikely to have a result where you don't get Golem, Mana Tide or Flametongue. And some of the hero power totems are good in certain situaions, like if you need a taunt to save yourself or get spell power for a Lightning Storm.

The card was stated and balanced around RNG and back then Shamans had the Healing Totem to decrease odds of getting a good deal.


People time and time again under value the impact of early game RNG. A stray Flame Juggler juggle on a Fiery Bat can decide a game.

Let's put it another way... they print a card "Roll a dice, if you get 5 or 6 you win, if not you lose"... is that a good card to print? No its not. Now realize how many cards in the game follow that pattern where they roll high early game and result in snowball effect that cause a game won without as drastic of a drawback. Hell now they even have a top end coin flip in Yogg.

Yup. A card's power being around RNG is incredibly toxic design.

As always I will mention my most hated card in the game with Implosion. 4 mana deal 4 damage spawn 4 1/1 imps is 'balanced' by the potential for a 2 damage deal 2 imps. Except the card is so disgusting when it hits high you needed to run it, and needed to deal with the swingy game blowouts based off the roll.

 

[Fishlake]

I don't see joust ever being a mechanic that can succeed in Hearthstone. The need for tempo plays far out weighs the advantage from joust. Maybe joust can succed in the wild in a few years when you have spells that summon minions for your low mana turns but outside of that it will never work in standard as it is.

Alrighty then. All good.

Moving to Inspire, it's clear how much the backlash affected Blizzard. They have dropped the mechanic COMPLETELY after the Community went sour on it and Joust. And now the sad part is, that has led them to never give it another shot; never try to re-balance it for a stronger purpose. I would love to see the mechanic brought back, but never shall we see it because the HS team got their pride hurt.

Compare that to Discover, which the community showered with love and admiration, so what happens? It's brought back, in multiple cards, in multiple expansions! No exclusivity excuses there (which is what they said about Joust/Inspire I believe). Now they're never letting that puppy go.

This is what makes me really sad. I like the inspire mechanic a lot and its a shame to see it pushed off to the side because of the back lash at the time.

 

[fertygo]

I've tried 5 times now and lost to mage, warrior, priest, warlock, warlock and none of them were even close. If there's a curve I'm not drawing it.

Deck had sylvanas, 2 highmane, 2 call of tthe wild, n nzoth breh

other deck is like f2p stuff