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[LucidMomentum]

Got to rank 19 with a short lived win streak off that 3 Day Legend Pirate Warrior deck. It's super fun to pilot but it falls apart if you don't get your card synergy going early game.

I need me some Leeroy Jenkins and Gromash to start making some gnarly decks though...

 

[Professor Lich]

Yeah seriously. It seems like NOBODY complains about this game. At all. Everybody just talks so positively about it. You're the first person say anything about the devs being terrible and the balance being off. Keep fighting the good fight.

I'm just glad that posters here know and understand how game development and design works. Makes for great discussion about the game.

It really is so quick and easy.

 

[Yaboosh]

just opened thalnos, dont have use for it but feels like I would regret dusting it

Definitely don't dust it. Great in mage, rogue, druid etc.


It is so much fun to play against a terrible aggro shaman player.

 

[ZealousD]

just opened thalnos, dont have use for it but feels like I would regret dusting it

You would. He's a core classic legendary and will probably be a common feature of Rogue decks for years.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

since old gods came out? nzoth control priest in wild is the most powerful deck right now, not secret paladin. I've been playing a lot of wild myself lately, it's what you see a lot in higher ranks. Secret paladin is great still but priest is favored against it and well priest beats everything else easily now that they have a reliable finisher not just to stall games. There are no more druid combos to beat priest too and no one plays rogue in wild.

Interesting I've come across very few priests ranking up the last 2 seasons and around rank 5.

 

[poppedcollar69]

I feel dirty

 

[manhack]

Been messing around with priest. Sadly I think that entomb, one of my favorite control cards, is a bit too slow for this meta right now. At least until priest gets some better board clears or something.

That said entomb is still amazing in a straight up control match.

 

[Karsticles]

Data Reaper Report #7

Rogue is now officially Priest/Paladin tier of garbage.


brawl

That 4 class meta.

I'm half tempted to stick to wild this season, get my priest to level 60. I'm definitely not going to grind priest in standard.

On the other hand, you'll probably never have a more Warrior-friendly meta.

Standard zoo does great in wild

Just make sure to add Nerubian Eggs and Haunted Creepers!

since old gods came out? nzoth control priest in wild is the most powerful deck right now, not secret paladin. I've been playing a lot of wild myself lately, it's what you see a lot in higher ranks. Secret paladin is great still but priest is favored against it and well priest beats everything else easily now that they have a reliable finisher not just to stall games. There are no more druid combos to beat priest too and no one plays rogue in wild.

Also, Priest doesn't have to deal with a lot of Aggro Shaman in Wild, and Face Hunter is dead. Priest has been really tough every time I fought it in Wild.

I think i might be the world's worst zoo player.

How can you tell the difference?

I'm just glad that posters here know and understand how game development and design works. Makes for great discussion about the game.

It really is so quick and easy.

Do you think it should take years for Ben Brode to go into the code and change 7/7 to 5/5?

Duelyst releases a balance patch every month. Maybe they should show Blizzard how to delete numbers.

Spoiler

Talking about Dr. Boom, not Faceless!

 

[ScaryShark]

Is C'thun Warrior DOA now? Literally everything I'm facing is aggro (for about a week) and that deck is awesome if you can survive to about turn 8 but I'm getting steamrolled unless I get perfect draws.

Am I going to have to play Renolock if I want a decent control deck?

 

[fertygo]

I see more C'thun Warrior than Standard Control Warrior, budget is real

 

[manhack]

Is C'thun Warrior DOA now? Literally everything I'm facing is aggro (for about a week) and that deck is awesome if you can survive to about turn 8 but I'm getting steamrolled unless I get perfect draws.

Am I going to have to play Renolock if I want a decent control deck?

C'thun warrior is Tier 2 on that vS Data Reaper Report

 

[Professor Lich]

Do you think it should take years for Ben Brode to go into the code and change 7/7 to 5/5?

Duelyst releases a balance patch every month. Maybe they should show Blizzard how to delete numbers.

Spoiler

Talking about Dr. Boom, not Faceless!

Hearthstone is not Duelyst. Both games have very different teams of developers who have decided what the goals are for their respective game.

So sure, the team at Duelyst have chosen to rebalance their game once a month. It sounds like a good way to keep the game interesting. They chose to do that and it's how the team at Duelyst are going to continue its development.

It's the same with Hearthstone, when it comes to the design goals of the game, the team has decided that they don't want to change cards all the time. The team has said they don't want people to come back after a break and have all of their cards be different which is a goal for them. (That was before Standard though and it was kind if funny seeing that GAF'er post about he didn't know why he couldn't make a deck with Wild cards.)

Different teams, different games, different goals, and different ways of achieving them. It's not them being lazy or incompetent, they're handling the game how they want to. I would bet that whatever the majority thinks is going on is not what is actually happening.

Reminds me of the Binding of Isaac thread where Azazel was changed but the value was incorrect so it turned into a heavy nerf. People were upset because he was so fun to play, so McMillen made a Twitter post, "Sorry, it's a mistake! Working on fixing it." I'd say a majority didn't even believe him if I remember correctly.

I will say that it does suck when something does extremely well because the Hearthstone team can't catch it all. Best example would be Patron Warrior. They fixed Warsong Commander and even showed the deck off with the reveal of BRM. They wanted people to play a new type of Warrior deck but they couldn't forsee just how good it would be. Again, that doesn't come from being incompetent or lazy, it's a whole different story entirely.

So TL;DR, go play Duelyst and bug their community.

 

[Karsticles]

Hearthstone is not Duelyst. Both games have very different teams of developers who have decided what the goals are for their respective game.

So sure, the team at Duelyst have chosen to rebalance their game once a month. It sounds like a good way to keep the game interesting. They chose to do that and it's how the team at Duelyst are going to continue its development.

It's the same with Hearthstone, when it comes to the design goals of the game, the team has decided that they don't want to change cards all the time. The team has said they don't want people to come back after a break and have all of their cards be different which is a goal for them. (That was before Standard though and it was kind if funny seeing that GAF'er post about he didn't know why he couldn't make a deck with Wild cards.)

Different teams, different games, different goals, and different ways of achieving them. It's not them being lazy or incompetent, they're handling the game how they want to. I would bet that whatever the majority thinks is going on is not what is actually happening.

Reminds me of the Binding of Isaac thread where Azazel was changed but the value was incorrect so it turned into a heavy nerf. People were upset because he was so fun to play, so McMillen made a Twitter post, "Sorry, it's a mistake! Working on fixing it." I'd say a majority didn't even believe him if I remember correctly.

I will say that it does suck when something does extremely well because the Hearthstone team can't catch it all. Best example would be Patron Warrior. They fixed Warsong Commander and even showed the deck off with the reveal of BRM. They wanted people to play a new type of Warrior deck but they couldn't forsee just how good it would be. Again, that doesn't come from being incompetent or lazy, it's a whole different story entirely.

So TL;DR, go play Duelyst and bug their community.

Your line of thought is completely nonsensical. You claim that the people wanting action sooner, just don't understand development processes. I give you a clear counterexample of how development processes aren't the problem here. Then you tell me to "go play Duelyst" - lolz? Nothing is more annoying than when someone is clearly wrong, they are proven to be wrong, and they can't handle it.

I am sure that every Priest main would be really upset if they came back from a hiatus and found out their cards changed to make the class viable. :-O

A lot of the changes that have been asked for aren't deep, strategic changes that will unravel the state of the game (who would want to preserve it, anyway?). For example, if you made Dr. Boom a 5/5 instead of a 7/7, what would be the incredible far-reaching consequence no one could possibly see that overturns the game? There isn't one. What about if Flamewreathed Faceless was toned down to a 6/7? I can imagine how the world would fall beneath our feet!

Or do you think they need another year so people don't come back and feel super upset that their card has changed? lol

In general, the game's content is minimal for the money it brings in. Brode said their team has expanded to (IIRC) somewhere in the mid 60s, so I'm curious to see if that changes. Right now, it's impressive to see how little they do. Playerbases for service-oriented games are generally happier with MORE communication, changes, and improvements, even if some of those fail and are misguided, than less communication, changes, and improvements. I'd actually challenge you to find me a game-as-service title where the community is just oh-so-excited at how little the developers do in favor of dead idols like consistency.

 

[irfaanator]

Other people seem to agree that nerfs can have a risk in returning players

“Different,” we’ll say. My perspective is that I definitely like the approach that Blizzard has to the game in general of allowing the introduction of cards to shift the metagame, as opposed to having a heavy-handed and frequent approach to nerfing and buffing cards. I do think that—and I’ve seen this in other games I’ve played—that players get exhausted by constant change. They’ll come back and the deck that they played doesn’t work, and then they just leave. It’s a huge, huge risk.

http://www.pcgamer.com/kibler-on-the-current-state-of-competitive-hearthstone/

Any nerfs are just gonna have ppl dusting the card. Blizzard just might as well auto dust nerfed cards so ppl dont have to.

Another case in point look at NRS games.

 

[Karsticles]

Other people seem to agree that nerfs can have a risk in returning players



http://www.pcgamer.com/kibler-on-the-current-state-of-competitive-hearthstone/

Any nerfs are just gonna have ppl dusting the card. Blizzard just might as well auto dust nerfed cards so ppl dont have to.

Another case in point look at NRS games.

If the changes fundamentally change how your deck plays, I completely agree that it makes sense to wait it out. After all, nerfs to functionality can completely ruin deck archetypes.

However, changes to numbers don't change how your deck plays. It just makes it less effective at what it does. Nerfing Faceless by 1 stat won't ruin Shaman, and nerfing Dr. Boom won't ruin...every single deck in Wild (lol).

That's why Blizzard's nerf to Knife Juggler was a good one. Some people wanted the knives to only hit face. Others wanted the card to only proc on non-token minions. Both of these would have likely destroyed the card, because they fundamentally changed how the card functions, thus removing most of its synergy. Making it a 2/2 was the perfect nerf for the card, and right now it only sees consistent play in the kind of deck the card was designed for - good on Blizzard for making the proper change.

However, like I said before, I really don't think "consistency" can defend not helping classes that have almost no presence in the current meta, like Priest. If you are a Priest player who has spent months (years?) getting every Priest card to master your class options, should your play experience have to be total shit for who-knows-how-long in the name of not wanting to upset some players with card changes? That seems unreasonable to me.

NRS games often change how abilities behave, and I'd argue that changing just numbers in a fighting game isn't equivalent to a card game, because making a move +10 on block vs. -10 on block completely changes that move's utility, not just the efficacy of its current utility. I'm not heavy into the NRS scene, though, so I'm not sure if NRS players are generally happy with their game state. Their Evo numbers are pretty healthy, at least.

 

[irfaanator]

buffing priest cards aren't going to help priests get better in the meta so I'm not sure why you think that. Priest's issue is that they dont have proactive early drops. If you compare tunnel trogg with undertaker and secret keeper. Priest's early game would be light of the naaru but nobody plays that shit even though it synergizes w/ priests hero power. Look at what nerfing ancient of lore, keeper, leper gnome, and FoN did. Do you see any of those cards played now? Keeper, leper, and AoL changes werent big changes either. Druid picked up good cards in both early and late game to help mitigate those losses. Priest didnt get any of that and neither did paladin which is why they're dumpster tier in standard. Also the knife juggler nerf just got it replaced by the next best thing, flame juggler so while the card moved to a specific deck in standard (people still use knife juggler w/ secret paladin in wild) the game winning effect of juggles early game are still there for a lot of decks

People complain about NRS balances b/c you may have learned how the character played when you first bought the game, but 6 months down the line any familiarity you had w/ the character goes out the window. That's what Blizzard's theme is for patching. They don't want that to happen. Post from mvc3's only evo champion viscant https://testyourmight.com/threads/p...ames-not-hurt-them.51268/page-24#post-1804164

I agree that even though the HS team communicates nothing ever gets said (actually bbrode answers a lot of stuff on twitter so you can ask him about this stuff there) and they're slow on changes but 7 OTs of ppl complaining is not going to change whether you like how the game is played or not. Either take it as is and continue playing or don't.

 

[Karsticles]

buffing priest cards aren't going to help priests get better in the meta so I'm not sure why you think that. Priest's issue is that they dont have proactive early drops. If you compare tunnel trogg with undertaker and secret keeper. Priest's early game would be light of the naaru but nobody plays that shit even though it synergizes w/ priests hero power. Look at what nerfing ancient of lore, keeper, leper gnome, and FoN did. Do you see any of those cards played now? Keeper, leper, and AoL changes werent big changes either. Druid picked up good cards in both early and late game to help mitigate those losses. Priest didnt get any of that and neither did paladin which is why they're dumpster tier in standard. Also the knife juggler nerf just got it replaced by the next best thing, flame juggler so while the card moved to a specific deck in standard (people still use knife juggler w/ secret paladin in wild) the game winning effect of juggles early game are still there for a lot of decks

People complain about NRS balances b/c you may have learned how the character played when you first bought the game, but 6 months down the line any familiarity you had w/ the character goes out the window. That's what Blizzard's theme is for patching. They don't want that to happen. Post from mvc3's only evo champion viscant https://testyourmight.com/threads/p...ames-not-hurt-them.51268/page-24#post-1804164

I have trouble seeing the carryover between card games and fighting games, especially a simple game like Hearthstone. Fighting game gameplay is so much more nuanced, and you absolutely can ruin months of training with a character with small changes. If Flamewreathed Faceless gets a stat nerf, everything about your deck is pretty much the same. If you are REALLY upset about the stat nerf, you sub in Fireguard Destroyer or another Dr4 of choice, and you go back to playing on your curve. The actual deck doesn't play differently, it isn't ruined like a FG character. I think this is a case of false equivalence.

I agree that the best way to help Priest is to just nerf Trogg (and Mana Wyrm IMO).

I think Keeper of the Grove got overnerfed, and I've said that since day 1. 2/3 would have made more sense. I generally favor incremental changes to prevent overnerfing. But the state of Druid has ALWAYS been bad, and that should have been clear to the devs when every Druid deck ran the combo. They just didn't think through the consequences of needing the combo all that well. I personally never felt like those other cards needed the nerfs they did. Leper Gnome was especially surprising...weren't we all caught off-guard by that one?

I think Knife Juggler is fair right now. Maybe not a well-designed card, but fair.

Buffing Priest cards absolutely could help them in the meta. For example, what if Power Word: Tentacles was as good as Velen's was for the early game? All Blizzard needs to do is look at some of these shifty, useless, boring cards (to cover the Timmys!) Priest got and rework them. The class is NOT beyond salvation right now. It doesn't need new cards, it just needs the cards it has right now to be become worthwhile in this meta.

 

[irfaanator]

I have trouble seeing the carryover between card games and fighting games, especially a simple game like Hearthstone. Fighting game gameplay is so much more nuanced, and you absolutely can ruin months of training with a character with small changes. If Flamewreathed Faceless gets a stat nerf, everything about your deck is pretty much the same. If you are REALLY upset about the stat nerf, you sub in Fireguard Destroyer or another Dr4 of choice, and you go back to playing on your curve. The actual deck doesn't play differently, it isn't ruined like a FG character. I think this is a case of false equivalence.

I agree that the best way to help Priest is to just nerf Trogg (and Mana Wyrm IMO).

I think Keeper of the Grove got overnerfed, and I've said that since day 1. 2/3 would have made more sense. I generally favor incremental changes to prevent overnerfing. But the state of Druid has ALWAYS been bad, and that should have been clear to the devs when every Druid deck ran the combo. They just didn't think through the consequences of needing the combo all that well. I personally never felt like those other cards needed the nerfs they did. Leper Gnome was especially surprising...weren't we all caught off-guard by that one?

I think Knife Juggler is fair right now. Maybe not a well-designed card, but fair.

Buffing Priest cards absolutely could help them in the meta. For example, what if Power Word: Tentacles was as good as Velen's was for the early game? All Blizzard needs to do is look at some of these shifty, useless, boring cards (to cover the Timmys!) Priest got and rework them. The class is NOT beyond salvation right now. It doesn't need new cards, it just needs the cards it has right now to be become worthwhile in this meta.

The carry over b/w fighting games if cards are changed too often then any sense of understanding of how the deck works before is lost to returning players. You're just looking at one card one time, but they're looking at monthly adjustments as a plan in the long run. You keep adjusting every month then returning players have no sense of the class from when they played. The best way to help priest isnt to nerf tunnel or wyrm so idk if that's a joke or not. Also not sure what timmy cards priest got. I played PW:T in a deck and it's shit b/c it's slow, it'll never be good. Velens was great b/c it buffed nsp deathlord and curator to respectable levels to trade with other early game minions. If PW:T was 3 mana then yea it'd be a great card, and the new velens but if that's what priest needs to be viable each rotation then might as well put a velens buff in the core set. It also couldve been alleviated by even having that +1/2 buff that paladin got or a better two drop.

 

[TetraxShards]

I agree that the best way to help Priest is to just nerf Trogg (and Mana Wyrm IMO).

Yes please, I have three gold ones!

For awhile, they were moving to every class having a 1/3 1-drop it looked like:
Mage -> Mana Wyrm
Warlock -> Voidwalker
Priest -> Northshire Cleric

then expansions added:
Warrior -> Warbot (rotated out)
Shaman -> Tunnel Trogg
Paladin -> Vilefin Inquisitor

and there's Sir Finley as a neutral.

 

[Professor Lich]

Your line of thought is completely nonsensical. You claim that the people wanting action sooner, just don't understand development processes. I give you a clear counterexample of how development processes aren't the problem here.

What I'm trying to say is that the development team has chosen to do minimal balance changes. They feel it's better for the game overall. It doesn't matter who else does what, they want to takle Hearthstone in their own way.

It also doesn't matter if it's an easy change of stats, that isn't the point. Any change is still a change, and the Hearthstone team wants to avoid all they can.

Maybe I misunderstood, but wasn't your example just saying that Hearthstone should have a balance patch every month like Duelyst? That's why I'm taking about the development teams and how they work. It's their choice in how to handle their respective games.

Maybe monthly balances would be better, I can't say. Hearthstone isn't perfect, I'm sure there are a lot of things that could improve it overall. The issue is what things are there that fit its design goals.

As for content, sure, more would be awesome. I can't deny that. But you have to remember, some cards go through 3-5 iterations when in development. So we're talking roughly 300 cards that get worked on and refined per expansion, less for adventures but they also have to make the encounters. I see that as their balancing and counter, "how little they do," as they work on getting cards out. No one here knows just how long that takes or how much work it is though.

As for being vocal with the community, maybe I'm wrong, but when Brode was doing those YouTube videos about Hearthstone, people here just shit all over them and I would bet they didn't go over well in other places too.(Cue, it's the soul of the card!) Yeah, let's keep doing that.

Obviously, I can't find a community that enjoys zero information, so there's no need to try. I also agree that more transparency is better too. It'd be great if they did more but it didn't have the effect they wanted or they would do more.

As for the Duelyst comment, I had two intentions for it.

One: It was a joke / trap because sometimes people don't read entire long posts and only focus on one thing. If that happens, then what's the point in trying to have a discussion.

Two: If you want to play a game where you get monthly updates, then you should probably play a game that has monthly updates. Hearthstone, to my current knowledge, isn't going to radically change anytime soon.

I didn't mean to have it taken seriously.

 

[Dahbomb]

Blizzard has said they won't buff cards so there isn't much point talking about it in that perspective.

They can easily release OP cards for a class and make them strong like they did with Shaman.

As far as Blizzard is concerned, they succeeded completely with Standard because how the game is being played how they designed it.

*Combo decks aren't strong.
*Decks that do nothing for 4 turns aren't strong.
*Cthun decks are viable.
*Game is about minion combat and trading.
*Games rarely go to fatigue now.
*4-5 classes are strong (in the past we would be lucky to have 3 strong classes/decks)
*Mill decks aren't strong
*Cheap decks are better than expensive ones which means few Legendaries are super powerful


So Hearthstone is working as intended.

 

[manhack]

Decided to make Yogg decks with all classes. So far Yogg Control Warrior is the surprise hit.

Yogg can do some disgusting things when you are about to lose the game and you Yolo Yogg.

 

[Cat Party]

Decided to make Yogg decks with all classes. So far Yogg Control Warrior is the surprise hit.

Yogg can do some disgusting things when you are about to lose the game and you Yolo Yogg.

Definitely. Yogging into double avenging wrath for lethal was still my favorite, personally.

 

[Singularity42]

Definitely. Yogging into double avenging wrath for lethal was still my favorite, personally.

I double pyroblasted a shaman for lethal last night with a yolo yogg...

I regret not getting a screen shot.

I've also pyro'd my face on a few occasions

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

I don't know if I would prefer monthly balance patches or not. Probably not. There are a number of reasons I feel that are perfectly valid for a CCG to not have balance patches on the regular. Primarily because even minor balance changes in a CCG happen to have widespread impact. The meta should be self balancing anyway. Shaman OP(rhetorical)? Cause it seems like the meta pushed them down the ranks enough that I only saw ~7% shaman over 50+ matches played. That is how the meta works. There will always be a deck that is a bit stronger than others and seem "OP". But players adjust and that advantage can quickly become a disadvantage, especially in the hands of disparate skill levels of players.

 

[A Pretty Panda]

I'd rather have more frequent card releases

 

[Levi]

I've changed my mind. I don't want nerfs. I want new cards that address issues. Give me tools to disrupt the meta.

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

There is nothing like malygos + fan of knives to clear our twin emperors, to top deck sinister strike and use existing burn in hand to drop him from 18 hp.

 

[Trigger_happy]

Data Reaper Report #7

Rogue is now officially Priest/Paladin tier of garbage.


brawl

This is so much better than tempostorm's metasnapshot, i knew that freeze mage being tier 2 on the current ladder is complete bullshit.

 

[bunbun777]

I wonder how many people that have legitimate problems and complaints do not have a complete playset of cards. I know the majority of players probably don't and so maybe just because of that it seems to probably be a stretch to say that completion is the main reason, but still. Yoshi has all the cards and is very critical. But once you really get all the cards for multiple decks (as in any deck you want or can imagine building) it seems at least to me to be pretty varied with 2 to 3 main decks being consistently easier to win with, and quite a few outliers that played with luck (draw and matchups) and skill seem to get the job done. But yea I'm not defending perceived problems with the game just wondering how much true choice has a say in that enjoyment.

 

[Dahbomb]

That new data site is much better than Tempostorm because it actually backs up the tier lists with stats.

Also has a comprehensive match up chart.

The Control Priest and Control Paladin match ups are god damn abysmal LMAO!

It's funny how at one time a Control Warlock used to decimate Zoolock but not anymore.

 

[Karsticles]

The carry over b/w fighting games if cards are changed too often then any sense of understanding of how the deck works before is lost to returning players. You're just looking at one card one time, but they're looking at monthly adjustments as a plan in the long run. You keep adjusting every month then returning players have no sense of the class from when they played. The best way to help priest isnt to nerf tunnel or wyrm so idk if that's a joke or not. Also not sure what timmy cards priest got. I played PW:T in a deck and it's shit b/c it's slow, it'll never be good. Velens was great b/c it buffed nsp deathlord and curator to respectable levels to trade with other early game minions. If PW:T was 3 mana then yea it'd be a great card, and the new velens but if that's what priest needs to be viable each rotation then might as well put a velens buff in the core set. It also couldve been alleviated by even having that +1/2 buff that paladin got or a better two drop.

Maybe I'm the unusual one, but if I haven't played a game for "a while" (we'll leave that time open to interpretation), it's because it got stale for me. Hearing that the game made a ton of changes excites me, and I want to explore them. Warframe is a good example on this. It's a great game, but it got old. It has made a TON of changes to the gameplay since I last played, and I want to give it another shot at some point as a result. If they just made small tweaks, I would say "Yeah, I've played Warframe - it's good, but I'm done with it."

Re: Velens. Putting a few key cards from each set into Classic is what I think they should have done. Even though I hate Reno something fierce, I always hate losing an entire deck archetype due to rotations. Maybe ~20 cards from each set that rotates out, and ~5 cards from any adventure that rotates out. Maybe that's too much?

Yes please, I have three gold ones!

For awhile, they were moving to every class having a 1/3 1-drop it looked like:
Mage -> Mana Wyrm
Warlock -> Voidwalker
Priest -> Northshire Cleric

then expansions added:
Warrior -> Warbot (rotated out)
Shaman -> Tunnel Trogg
Paladin -> Vilefin Inquisitor

and there's Sir Finley as a neutral.

A 1/3 for 1 is perfectly fine. Strong, but fine. What's not fine is a 3/3 on turn 1, which is what Mana Wyrm often is.

What I'm trying to say is that the development team has chosen to do minimal balance changes. They feel it's better for the game overall. It doesn't matter who else does what, they want to takle Hearthstone in their own way.

It also doesn't matter if it's an easy change of stats, that isn't the point. Any change is still a change, and the Hearthstone team wants to avoid all they can.

Maybe I misunderstood, but wasn't your example just saying that Hearthstone should have a balance patch every month like Duelyst? That's why I'm taking about the development teams and how they work. It's their choice in how to handle their respective games.

Your initial claim was about development, as in actual development constraints. If you would have said something like "personal preference", "style", or "design approaches", then I wouldn't have mentioned Duelyst at all. It was purely an argument about the necessary time a development team needs for re-balancing cards.

Maybe monthly balances would be better, I can't say. Hearthstone isn't perfect, I'm sure there are a lot of things that could improve it overall. The issue is what things are there that fit its design goals.

I think I'd be happy with quarterly balances. Monthly is a pretty big task, and you can miss the mark easily. It's easier with Duelyst because you can feel the power of a minion on grid more than you can on Hearthstone's board.

As for content, sure, more would be awesome. I can't deny that. But you have to remember, some cards go through 3-5 iterations when in development. So we're talking roughly 300 cards that get worked on and refined per expansion, less for adventures but they also have to make the encounters. I see that as their balancing and counter, "how little they do," as they work on getting cards out. No one here knows just how long that takes or how much work it is though.

Some cards go through 3-5 iterations, and then we get Yogg.

I respect the card output. I don't want more CARD content. I do want more ways to play the game (Two-Headed Giant, anyone?), more deck creation options (new hero powers?), etc. The game in general feels kind of stale right now, and I'd like to see something to spice it up.

As for being vocal with the community, maybe I'm wrong, but when Brode was doing those YouTube videos about Hearthstone, people here just shit all over them and I would bet they didn't go over well in other places too.(Cue, it's the soul of the card!) Yeah, let's keep doing that.

I never saw those, but if folks are really unhappy, maybe it's time to do some listening.

As for the Duelyst comment, I had two intentions for it.

One: It was a joke / trap because sometimes people don't read entire long posts and only focus on one thing. If that happens, then what's the point in trying to have a discussion.

Two: If you want to play a game where you get monthly updates, then you should probably play a game that has monthly updates. Hearthstone, to my current knowledge, isn't going to radically change anytime soon.

I didn't mean to have it taken seriously.

I play Hearthstone, Duelyst, Infinity Wars, and Solforge, but I might drop Solforge since it is becoming less enjoyable and more formulaic in its play. Thanks for explaining your comment.

Blizzard has said they won't buff cards so there isn't much point talking about it in that perspective.

They can easily release OP cards for a class and make them strong like they did with Shaman.

As far as Blizzard is concerned, they succeeded completely with Standard because how the game is being played how they designed it.

*Combo decks aren't strong.
*Decks that do nothing for 4 turns aren't strong.
*Cthun decks are viable.
*Game is about minion combat and trading.
*Games rarely go to fatigue now.
*4-5 classes are strong (in the past we would be lucky to have 3 strong classes/decks)
*Mill decks aren't strong
*Cheap decks are better than expensive ones which means few Legendaries are super powerful


So Hearthstone is working as intended.

Good points.

Decided to make Yogg decks with all classes. So far Yogg Control Warrior is the surprise hit.

Yogg can do some disgusting things when you are about to lose the game and you Yolo Yogg.

That spreadsheet that got posted said Yogg Patron Warrior has been seeing play.

 

[Pooya]

Blizzard has said they won't buff cards so there isn't much point talking about it in that perspective.

They can easily release OP cards for a class and make them strong like they did with Shaman.

As far as Blizzard is concerned, they succeeded completely with Standard because how the game is being played how they designed it.

*Combo decks aren't strong.
*Decks that do nothing for 4 turns aren't strong.
*Cthun decks are viable.
*Game is about minion combat and trading.
*Games rarely go to fatigue now.
*4-5 classes are strong (in the past we would be lucky to have 3 strong classes/decks)
*Mill decks aren't strong
*Cheap decks are better than expensive ones which means few Legendaries are super powerful

So Hearthstone is working as intended.

Essentially they took the easy and boring way for the future of the game and we just keep playing the same game with different artworks every rotation.

 

[manhack]

That spreadsheet that got posted said Yogg Patron Warrior has been seeing play.

Yeah. So far I have a pure control version and a Patron version. Both are kicking ass. I suppose it has more to do with Warrior being so strong at the moment.

 

[Dahbomb]

I wonder how many people that have legitimate problems and complaints do not have a complete playset of cards. I know the majority of players probably don't and so maybe just because of that it seems to probably be a stretch to say that completion is the main reason, but still. Yoshi has all the cards and is very critical. But once you really get all the cards for multiple decks (as in any deck you want or can imagine building) it seems at least to me to be pretty varied with 2 to 3 main decks being consistently easier to win with, and quite a few outliers that played with luck (draw and matchups) and skill seem to get the job done. But yea I'm not defending perceived problems with the game just wondering how much true choice has a say in that enjoyment.

I can play any deck I want but I still have legitimate issues with the game still.

It's sad but I think HS was at its peak during the beta before Naxx when I first started playing. There were more defined control and combo archetypes, more viable archetypes (even if the were over powered like Combo Druid). Back then the game had promise that if they kept add more interesting, deck defining cards like Jaraxxus that the game would have more variety in addition to more frequent balance changes (in the beta they had more frequent balance changing). Instead they just kept adding boring over powered cards like Trogg/Faceless and/or interesting but ultimately useless cards (like Herald).

Blizzard likes a specific archetype and that's what they want everyone to be playing as. Anything else gets nerfed out and becomes irrelevant. That's not interesting or fun. It's especially disappointing because at the start of Old Gods it felt like we finally had that actual Aggro - Combo - Control archetype trifecta when Nzoth paladin and Miracle Rogue were at the top but now the minion based decks have taken over once again.

 

[ViviOggi]

A competent dev could easily salvage constructed but right now it's 100% how Blizzard wants it. Just play arena while it lasts.

 

[NBtoaster]

Essentially they took the easy and boring way for the future of the game and we just keep playing the same game with different artworks every rotation.

Not really, cards like C'thun, Reno, Elise and N'Zoth have had a huge effect on the way control decks and some mid range decks are built and played.

Though sure, for zoo and aggro the order of the day will always be to vomit shit on the board and go face.

 

[Dahbomb]

Reno isn't relevant anymore because the card pool has shrunk and it's very hard to make a good highlander style deck anymore. Loss of good anti aggro tools for Warlock without getting anything in returns means Renolock can't cut it anymore.

Nzoth was strong at the start of the expansion because the meta was slower (as it ALWAYS is at start of expansion) and games went on that long so Nzoth could be played but now games are again faster and Nzoth is too slow. Nzoth belongs in Priest and Paladin, two of the classes which are really struggling right now. If Nzoth decks ever get good then effective counters are already sitting in the wing ready to be activated like Miracle Rogue but of course the aggressive decks are keeping the Miracoli down.

Elise is irrelevant in an aggro/tempo meta.. it's a control vs control card. That's why you don't see much Elise anymore.

Cthun seems to go in and out of relevancy when it comes to high level play. Before Cthun Warrior wasn't that good, now it's good. I remain skeptical of Cthun decks at the highest level of play... sometimes you can get a brick opener and you fail to get your activators on time. Cthun overall as a card/archetype has been fine in Old Gods IMO kinda like Nzoth but it hasn't brought in a paradigm shift. And effective counters exist to this style of deck if it becomes too good so I doubt it will stay high up this long.

 

[cHinzo]

Give us some good taunt minions! I miss Sludge Belcher in standard.

 

[NBtoaster]

It doesn't matter what's effective now, they're going to shape decks for the next year or two. It's proven they can be effective and they can only better. The state of the game is very different to when control decks were unthemed and were mostly about lasting so you could play Ysera.

It's not even just control decks either. N'zoth rogue built from Miracle Rogue. All it takes is one new deathrattle to make it playable in mid range shaman.

 

[greepoman]

So I ran into this guy playing servant of yogg...he played it and it casted astral communion and discarded a full hand. Immediately conceeded.

Then I see the same guy on Dog's stream...plays it and it storm cracks itself so he played a 5 mana overload 1. Some people are just masochists.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

19 power god knows what HP Lightwarden, the fuck Nzoth board vs Nzoth Board. Won by 1 life against Nzoth priest, and he probably miscalculated that.
I just knew I had to ignore the lightwarden and straight go at face.

 

[Pooya]

Not really, cards like C'thun, Reno, Elise and N'Zoth have had a huge effect on the way control decks and some mid range decks are built and played.

Though sure, for zoo and aggro the order of the day will always be to vomit shit on the board and go face.

I mean in general, they have design goals that won't change any time soon. Some of which they don't directly state but you can read in between lines.

Like how having your board wiped "feels bad", that was said regarding flurry for example and priests card that make the opponent "feel bad", ie board clear. They are not printing many board clears and removing them even, they are instead coming with 1-2-3 synergistic drops instead or numerous board flood cards. their balance by default favors board flood strategies, that's all you need to know about future of the game.

That tells me they want people to play this style of decks rather than stalling, swingy or controlling archetypes. just curve, 50 percent match up decided by mulligan, anyone knows how to trade minions, game based on minion trading isn't interesting but that's their design goal. Unlike what they say, these games are not interactive, you can't interact with 1-2-3 curve of your opponent, if you don't have an answer in board swings, your own curve will always be behind. It's inherently flawed in how hearthstone works with no blocking or interruptions. I have no idea why they think these style of decks are interactive just because they play minions on board, there are no interactions as your opponent plays trogg into golem into coin feral spirit and goes face putting at sub 20 by turn 4.

Like the comment was made by their lead balance guy, in how he linked a n'zoth deck that "still did rogue things" by drawing cards but instead played minions instead, like how out of touch you have to be with this game's design and class flavors if you think that's what "rogue things" is about, just drawing card. When I think rogue and what the class was first like, it was about being a glass cannon, it was about being the ability to swing things around at any time, it's about playing the non linear game, it's about speed in a sense, drawing cards is just a part of that. I don't think people with that mindset are right for the long term future of this game, they just want to make their own jobs easier. And no, he wasn't part of the design team, he has joined after launch, the original team was far more creative, it's so apparent!

That's the kind of game they want, everyone plays same thing in the end with different artworks. Now instead of everyone playing shredder for example, they have their own class op drops, it just creates false variety, that's not what I look for when I think variety.

 

[crimzonflame]

I dont play this game but I cant stop watching match vids on youtube WTF??

 

[irfaanator]

snip

Pretty much. They want minion based combat and that's what we got. Curve out, keep board control, and win. It's why we probably won't ever get cheap board clears.

 

[Type2]

Hi all, I stopped playing the game before standard became a thing, the nerfs and LOE and GT.
I just got back into it now and got myself some Old Gods packs with enough of a collection to play tempo warrior. I would love some active people on my friends list to help me become a better player and just chat cards with. Type2 #1944 is my bnet.

 

[Karsticles]

I mean in general, they have design goals that won't change any time soon. Some of which they don't directly state but you can read in between lines.

Like how having your board wiped "feels bad", that was said regarding flurry for example and priests card that make the opponent "feel bad", ie board clear. They are not printing many board clears and removing them even, they are instead coming with 1-2-3 synergistic drops instead or numerous board flood cards. their balance by default favors board flood strategies, that's all you need to know about future of the game.

That tells me they want people to play this style of decks rather than stalling, swingy or controlling archetypes. just curve, 50 percent match up decided by mulligan, anyone knows how to trade minions, game based on minion trading isn't interesting but that's their design goal. Unlike what they say, these games are not interactive, you can't interact with 1-2-3 curve of your opponent, if you don't have an answer in board swings, your own curve will always be behind. It's inherently flawed in how hearthstone works with no blocking or interruptions. I have no idea why they think these style of decks are interactive just because they play minions on board, there are no interactions as your opponent plays trogg into golem into coin feral spirit and goes face putting at sub 20 by turn 4.

Like the comment was made by their lead balance guy, in how he linked a n'zoth deck that "still did rogue things" by drawing cards but instead played minions instead, like how out of touch you have to be with this game's design and class flavors if you think that's what "rogue things" is about, just drawing card. When I think rogue and what the class was first like, it was about being a glass cannon, it was about being the ability to swing things around at any time, it's about playing the non linear game, it's about speed in a sense, drawing cards is just a part of that. I don't think people with that mindset are right for the long term future of this game, they just want to make their own jobs easier. And no, he wasn't part of the design team, he has joined after launch, the original team was far more creative, it's so apparent!

That's the kind of game they want, everyone plays same thing in the end with different artworks. Now instead of everyone playing shredder for example, they have their own class op drops, it just creates false variety, that's not what I look for when I think variety.

I can play any deck I want but I still have legitimate issues with the game still.

It's sad but I think HS was at its peak during the beta before Naxx when I first started playing. There were more defined control and combo archetypes, more viable archetypes (even if the were over powered like Combo Druid). Back then the game had promise that if they kept add more interesting, deck defining cards like Jaraxxus that the game would have more variety in addition to more frequent balance changes (in the beta they had more frequent balance changing). Instead they just kept adding boring over powered cards like Trogg/Faceless and/or interesting but ultimately useless cards (like Herald).

Blizzard likes a specific archetype and that's what they want everyone to be playing as. Anything else gets nerfed out and becomes irrelevant. That's not interesting or fun. It's especially disappointing because at the start of Old Gods it felt like we finally had that actual Aggro - Combo - Control archetype trifecta when Nzoth paladin and Miracle Rogue were at the top but now the minion based decks have taken over once again.

I really enjoyed reading both of these posts.

To me, card games get interesting when your hand is complicated. When you have a lot of options to play, and you have to figure out the best play + best future plays with the resources you have, that is an interesting place to be. Minion curves are the least interesting way to play a hand, because the most complicated decision you have to make is, to play one max-mana minion or multiple lower-mana minions. Then it's all just efficient trading, which doesn't have a lot of variation to it either.

 

[Dahbomb]

I dont play this game but I cant stop watching match vids on youtube WTF??

Game is still fun to watch especially when someone else is getting screwed over by RNG. It never fails to be amusing.

 

[ZealousD]

Dragon Warrior is 10x better than Tempo Warrior oh mai gawd

 

[fertygo]

Dragon Warrior is 10x better than Tempo Warrior oh mai gawd

Maybe but eh.. I hate the playstyle, its hunter deck with warrior card, screw it.. boring af