Zoo would be a thing even with mediocre early game.
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- Thread starter ZealousD
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Zoo would be a thing even with mediocre early game.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Maybe, but it wouldn't be a top tier deck by any means. Early on in classic it wasn't even that strong of a deck, despite it's popularity and it only really became a strong deck once it got stronger early game in the form of nerubian egg and haunted creeper.
Plus it's never really had mediocre early game. It's always had flame imp + voidwalker. It's hard to accept this claim because they've always had strong early game, class cards and neutrals.
edit:
I feel like clarifying. In classic it was a strong deck, very strong in the first few weeks of it's appearance. But once people figured out how to beat the deck it's power level dropped a lot. Back then we were still figuring out the game. Zoo changed a lot of people misconceptions about tempo and value. And zoo was super popular because of how cheap it was to make and when the game was young, people lacked the dust to make strong decks so they made zoo (still do, but back then almost everyone was new). It was an answerable deck. It picked up steam once it got haunted creeper and nerubian egg, but then remained lower on the totem poll still to hunter with it's 2 mana UTH and mad scientist.
btw, I started playing duelyst too, and alongside faeria, this games made me realize how well designed is the collection layout in hearthstone
In HS is easy to know which is your collection while knowing which cards are missing, and in duelyst even disenchanting a card is a drag.
Still, I'm liking more both games, will be good alternatives to HS while I expect the next expansion to be released, at least now I don't feel like laddering since the early game in this game really kills my mood to play it, specially when I prefer control decks
In HS is easy to know which is your collection while knowing which cards are missing, and in duelyst even disenchanting a card is a drag.
Still, I'm liking more both games, will be good alternatives to HS while I expect the next expansion to be released, at least now I don't feel like laddering since the early game in this game really kills my mood to play it, specially when I prefer control decks
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
If you like control decks, try elder scrolls legends. It's funny how fast people can run out of resources because as control you don't feel pressured to hit their face. They hit your face and you draw cards. They run out of steam because they don't get those additional cards. And then you just blow them out in a single turn or two, all their cards they draw don't have a chance to get played.
The other thing different about legends (compared to hearthstone) is that non-unique legends can have 3 in your deck, so your late game can be more consistent. For example, there is a 6 mana 4/4 that has drain + pilfer +4/4 (meaning it grows to 8/8 if you hit face with it). So you hit face once and it's an 8/8 and you gain 4 hp. Then you attack again and it's a 12/12 (don't have to hit face to get the health gain)... I don't think I've lost a single game when I've gotten 2 attacks off. Sometimes going from 10 hp to 40 hp by the time I win. And you can have 3 of those. And my deck is pretty midrange but I think you get the point.
Aggro decks in that game typically have access to less resources and your mid/late game can be more consistent. There are no hero powers, which means when your opponent is out of resources they are legit out of resources. No 2 damage per turn forever. No draw 2 cards per turn.
Professor Lich
Member
Twice now I've milled myself thanks to Curator and Prince Mal.
Wasn't Fool's Bane supposed to destroy Call of the Wild and drive all the Hunters off the ladder? LOL
EDIT:
Kara sucked from a Warrior player's Point of View. Best card we got is probably, what, Curator? Fuck.
I've been running an Ancestral-Control shaman (similar to Frodan's bogchamp) but I am missing FarSight which is critical. Debating on spending money just so I can get together the dust (but I probably wont cause I'd rather craft Fangral)
Anyway if I want to climb I can just use my Hunter / Mage / etc which all have complete decks.
Yeah HS has a better UI for that sort of thing.
And yeah it is hard to really run a nice strategic control deck with all these fast moving face decks running rampant. I know for my shaman I really need for my AoE cards to hit my hand. If they don't I'm dead. just much easier and brainless to run my Hunter to climb ladder honestly
[edit] btw you Control warrior they seem crazy strong still
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Even if it was, that wouldn't be enough.
BTW, it's illegal to complain about what warrior gets. It's not like I made that rule up on the spot or anything. Fool's bane is actually pretty good though imho. It's just not a control card. It's a midrange card.
oh my goodness two control warrior back-to-back. What deck counters them? I just started doing ranked this month in standard would be nice to climb past 19. Normally id just wait a week or so for ewasy pickings but want to beat better players and git gud
[edit] Lol! This warrior had me on the ropes and he just conceded. Thanks guy!!!!
[edit] Lol! This warrior had me on the ropes and he just conceded. Thanks guy!!!!
The Mango Sentinel
Member
Hunter horseshit will beat them fairly easy.
TetraxShards
Member
Bad play, can't hit face. SMOrc
Also, Fool's Bane is 3 attack. You'd have to hit Misha twice, which is 10 damage, plus another 4 if you either hit Huffer (5 if Leokk is still there) or hit Leokk twice. That's after Huffer has presumably hit you for 5 last turn as well. Doesn't seem that good.
Hunter anything.
Renolock.
Honestly even Shaman these days can bring the pain to Warriors.
Control Paladin with Justicar can beat them too.
Slower Token Druid.
Honestly anything that isn't Aggro Shaman, Dragon Warrior, Token Druid or Hunter is really easy to counter in the game. That's why these decks are in their own tier 1 and the rest of the decks that can be countered are in tier 2 or lower.
Some guy added me after a game, telling me to kill myself, I told him to google my past medication and to think about what he says and who its to (Its mental health meds, quite hardcore ones) and he said the following
Some guy added me after a game, telling me to kill myself, I told him to google my past medication and to think about what he says and who its to (Its mental health meds, quite hardcore ones) and he said the following
If you have his full tag report him to Blizzard and attach the pics to your report.
He removed me after his post, didnt save it
Oh, I know. It's kind of a running joke. Some guy on the sub spent a day or two trying to argue that Fool's Bane negated Call of the Wild after the card was revealed.
I'm on the record that Fool's Bane is a garbage card.
I can't complain that Warrior got garbage? Who made up this rule? Warrior isn't even close to being the best class anymore, so I can complain that my favorite class probably got the fewest tools from Kara. Even Priest got a new staple card.
Fool's Bane is a bad midrange card because midrange Warrior decks don't have the armor gain to support that card, and it's bad in control decks because Gorehowl and Brawl are just better.
Besides, it's way overcosted. The cards you want that weapon to kill after turn 5 are all 4 health or better. Taking 10 damage to kill a 5/4 is bad in decks that don't run Justicar
I know people want to bring up Violet Illusionist, but running a bad card to support another bad card is usually a bad idea.
https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveHS/comments/4qairm/the_ultimate_guide_to_control_warrior_by/
This is a pretty good primer to start with.
Control Warrior is in a tough spot in this meta but it can still be a very fun and effective deck.
Don't expect to learn it in a day--I've been playing Control Warrior for a year at least and I'm still learning new things about the deck.
this was solid advice just straight up beat down this control warrior just now. Just had to ignore his little tricks and kept hitting him in the face
Late game he was dropping Grim patrons (well Turn 7->8 or so)
Oh for sure. I definitely know I am playing extremely suboptimally. I am lost right now at mulligan.
Thanks for the link. I'll read it through.
That's not Control Warrior.
Just takes experience to figure out the mulligans vs your opponent. Like, should you keep Bash when going second vs Mage, for example, if you don't already have War Axe in hand? You need a reliable way to kill Many Wyrm but they can't do a turn one Wyrm Coin Mirror Image so maybe giving yourself more chances to draw War Axe so you can remove a Wyrm and a Sorc Apprentice is better.
theytookourjobz
Junior Member
Haven't played HS in like a year. Logged on today and played my first tavern brawl and won a pack. Golden Onyxia in it. Worth keeping?
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
do you like druid?
TetraxShards
Member
I don't think I could dust a gold Onyxia. It gives you gold whelps! Value!
Onyxia is also in Dragon Warrior lists these days, as an alternative to either Ragnaros or Deathwing.
That was the dumbest move by dog ever.
Playing against a deck with a single win condition, you have the perfect answer to negate that win condition, and you throw it away for absolutely nothing.
Edit: Never punished.
And then Dog gives up a moonfire in his Malygos deck to draw a minion from raven idol? I don't know man.
Playing against a deck with a single win condition, you have the perfect answer to negate that win condition, and you throw it away for absolutely nothing.
Edit: Never punished.
And then Dog gives up a moonfire in his Malygos deck to draw a minion from raven idol? I don't know man.
keep it until you decide you really don't want it... legendary cards by themselves are not easy to come by and that one is actually useful now
Dr.Horrible
Member
I've always preferred having entomb get hit with Spellbender. Either way, it's good stuff.
Hah that is way better!
Though he had Atiesh up, so technically counterspell was better (saves me from having to deal with a 6 mana minion) but drawing spellbender later sounds hilarious.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
It was a joke man. Anyway, warrior gets great shit every single expansion. If you look back, they've never once failed to give warrior great stuff. It easily boasts the highest density of great cards in standard, and you want more great staple cards? And how is it not even close to the best class despite having dragon warrior and like 3-4 other viable warrior decks throughout the last couple months since WOG released?
And are you really complaining about the weakest class getting a good card? I mean come on...
The card itself is not overcosted. It's an assassin's blade that can be used 4 times in the same turn, with the downside of not hitting face. It's a balanced card, and not the bad kind of balanced. It may not be great this expansion, but it could be great in another. I'm not even convinced it's not great this expansion, since it's still only a couple days since the set finished releasing.
Warrior is at least top 2 right now. There's absolutely nothing to complain about. Fool's Bane and Ironforge Portal are playable cards and Defend the King is a Bolster Warrior enabler (which really isn't a bad deck at all). Warrior is in the best spot right now in terms of archetype breadth.
Dr.Horrible
Member
So I know this isn't the greatest, but I'm having a lot of fun with it. Any suggestions on making it better? Soggoth the Slitherer isn't showing at the bottom, but he's in there.
upload img
upload imgI'm just jealous that everyone is having fun playing with new cards and I'm sitting here looking at Warrior with the Kara filter turned on and crying.
I'd put Warrior at third, maybe even fourth in the meta. Shaman is the best class right now, because it has the best deck. Druid is second, Token Druid can beat any deck in the game right now. It's a toss up between Hunter and Warrior for third spot.
Warrior is no longer better than Shaman or Druid. It might not even be better than Hunter.
As far as archetype breadth, other classes are catching up. Look at Hunter: Secret Hunter, Hybrid Hunter, Midrange Hunter, Spell Hunter (aka Yogg'n'Load), and Barnes/Y'shaarj Hunter.
Mage has Tempo Mage, Control Mage, Freeze Mage, and Reno Mage.
Rogue has Miracle, Thief, Tempo, and Deathrattle.
Druid has Beast, Token, Ramp, C'thun and Malygos.
Bolster Warrior is a bad deck. Lots of people tried to make it work after Protect the King came out but it has completely disappeared from the meta since then.
Anyway, I guess Warrior was due some bad cards. Would be nice to have gotten some new tools to play with but I guess there's always next expansion.
Acerac
Banned
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Protect the king makes little sense for a class that has already an abundance of answers against Zoo.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Lets assume Dragon Warrior is weaker than aggro shaman and token druid, they're still a tier 1 deck listed higher than 90% of the other decks. And many of those decks you listed aren't even good enough to make a top deck report because they don't go that low.
Look at the last tempo storm meta report. Regardless of what we think about the individual positions of the decks on the TS list, there are 4 warrior lists in tier 2 or above. And vS data reaper report (15) has 3 (legend and ranks 1-10).
I bet fool's bane would be fine in a midrange list. I think it's a matter of time before people find a great list for it.
Bolster though. I've played against the bolster lists. I think the combo is quite strong, especially since it can stack twice and hits all your taunts.
Look at the last tempo storm meta report. Regardless of what we think about the individual positions of the decks on the TS list, there are 4 warrior lists in tier 2 or above. And vS data reaper report (15) has 3 (legend and ranks 1-10).
I bet fool's bane would be fine in a midrange list. I think it's a matter of time before people find a great list for it.
Bolster though. I've played against the bolster lists. I think the combo is quite strong, especially since it can stack twice and hits all your taunts.
Your opinion does not match up with what pretty much everyone else including top players think. It doesn't even match up the statistics as well.
You listed a bunch of Hunter decks that work the same or are too niche to even talk about. Barnes/Yshaarj Hunter deck? Really now? If we are scraping the bottom of the barrel then Warrior STILL has the most archetypes. Like Bolster Warrior crushes half the decks you posted, I don't know how much time you invested in it but it really isn't that bad of a deck.
Everyone brings Warrior to tournaments even now and they are banning it. It's still a top deck on Ladder. Dragon Warrior is a top 2 deck in the game, second only to Shaman and is the only deck in the game that can consistently win against Aggro Shaman.
Hunter only has one real deck type and that one deck has two variations to it. People call it "Hybrid" Hunter but it's really just a faster Midrange Hunter deck. One of these decks will be the superior list and that will be list that every Hunter plays. It's like saying there is Dragon Warrior and then there's Curator Dragon Warrior... it's the same stuff with the exact same playstyle and win condition.
I played around with a Curator Control Warrior and it was quite successful. It uses a Jewel Scarab and a Kodo for the beast plus the board clear Murloc. Only Alex for the Dragon. Allows me to cut out a draw and also tried out Ironforge Portal which was decent enough. I didn't use Fool's Bane in it because I tried it in Dragon Warrior/Tempo Warrior which is a better fit for those decks. HP doesn't matter much when you are so ahead on board. Curator Dragon Warrior is very obviously powerful but it's not different enough to be interesting/noteworthy to me. I tried it with good results but stopped because it's basically just Dragon Tempo Warrior.
Dr.Horrible
Member
Thanks. Yeah, that makes sense on the Sunfuries. Mind games has played out oddly well, but convert has been decent. What would you replace them with, more spells or minions?
Should I replace Argus with Sunfury or just do both?
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Best game tonight:
Oh no, hunter wasn't bailed out by his RNG Companion. What does he do? Ropes out. 1/3 chance to succeed, failed. Always sometimes not huffer.
Then his second animal companion was not the taunt. And that resulted in me being able to remove both his minions. Which meant he couldn't remove my si7 agent. And his deadly shot hit the si7 agent. (technically it wouldn't have mattered, the second animal companion if it was a tank I would have sapped anyway. Without the mana on the last turn to both deadly shot and animal companion.)
Rekt.
Oh no, hunter wasn't bailed out by his RNG Companion. What does he do? Ropes out. 1/3 chance to succeed, failed. Always sometimes not huffer.
Then his second animal companion was not the taunt. And that resulted in me being able to remove both his minions. Which meant he couldn't remove my si7 agent. And his deadly shot hit the si7 agent. (technically it wouldn't have mattered, the second animal companion if it was a tank I would have sapped anyway. Without the mana on the last turn to both deadly shot and animal companion.)
Rekt.
SonicXtreme
Member
do people play wild pyromancer in yogg hunter? i'm playing a strict version with only 2x doomsayer and yogg as the only minions atm. pyro seems like it'd be good to have pings, but being hunter he could only trigger twice so idk. probably worth it but what do u guys think. this discard zoo shit is hard to decimate with the board clears you're limited to
also if you play hunters mark would pyromancer kill the minion ?
also if you play hunters mark would pyromancer kill the minion ?
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Yeah, hunter's mark kills the minion.
I don't know the answer to the rest of your questions, but I don't think yogg hunter runs wild pyro because king's elekk always draws yogg in that deck.
SonicXtreme
Member
hmm well i made a version with only 2x doomsayer and yogg. isn't doomsayer kind of essential? i have some version with elekks but i feel like its so hard to clear the board without doomsayer, i can't survive without them, esp with these discardlocks running so rampant
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
TBH I am not that familiar with yogg hunter. I think they only run elekk to guarantee yogg but I could be wrong.
I'm looking at the stats now, and they don't reflect that Warrior is the top class. I'm not hearing from any pro players or commentators that Warrior is the best.
If we're going to be that reductive then there are only three Warrior archetypes: Midrange, Control and Combo.
If it was a good deck, people would play it.
I've been watching ONOG at Pax all day and not only is Warrior not in every line-up, it's not even getting banned that much. I'm watching Dragon Warrior lost to Mage as I type this.
Wrong.
You're completely disregarding Secret Hunter and Yogg Hunter, both of which are real deck types that you'll see more of on ladder than Bolster Warrior
The more amazing thing to me is that you think Hybrid Hunter and Midrange Hunter are the same list. They have different results against common match-ups, and different strengths and weaknesses. They are distinct. If they are "the same deck with different types" then Dragon Warrior and Tempo Warrior are the same deck, C'thun Warrior and Control Warrior are the same deck, Worgen Warrior and Patron Warrior are the same deck.
I don't know why it's so controversial to say that Kara dropped them down the tier list. I guess it doesn't fit into the narrative that Warrior needs to be heavily nerfed, which was always ridiculous to me.
If Warrior was still the best class then they'd still be the majority of ladder. They aren't. If Dragon Warrior was still the best deck then it'd be played the most on ladder. It isn't.
The one and only thing you can always count on is that Hearthstone players are going to gravitate to playing whatever the strongest decks are. The fact that so many players have abandoned Warrior since Kara came out is all the evidence anyone should need that Warrior is lessened in the post-Kara meta.
Notice I never said that Warrior is bad.
It's just not as good as it used to be.
TetraxShards
Member
The list I run has Emperor Thaurissan as well.
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