just researched a little more because I totally thought it was the raw cost, but yeah, if the card is 0, the minion is 0, sorry about that
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- Thread starter ZealousD
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just researched a little more because I totally thought it was the raw cost, but yeah, if the card is 0, the minion is 0, sorry about that
Streaming various salty decks. https://www.twitch.tv/icemarker
Even Merps and ADWCTA are on the Firelands bandwagon completely.
Seems like the occurrence bonus is even higher this time around which means like 6x more Fireland Portals than normal and that has resulted in the entire Arena meta shifted around Firelands Portal.
aka Beat Mage before turn 7 or you lose. So meta is now more aggressive because it has to be to compete against Mage. And if you play around Firelands Portal then you might get punished severely by Flamestrike.
Seems like the occurrence bonus is even higher this time around which means like 6x more Fireland Portals than normal and that has resulted in the entire Arena meta shifted around Firelands Portal.
aka Beat Mage before turn 7 or you lose. So meta is now more aggressive because it has to be to compete against Mage. And if you play around Firelands Portal then you might get punished severely by Flamestrike.
The Mango Sentinel
Member
Feels good to be playing mage again. I've suffered enough over the past few months.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
How funny would it be if yshaarj enabled this. Play it, prep, gang up, then it pulls itself 3 times in one turn. I know it doesn't work that way, but that'd be cool. Just trying to think up a deck that can use gang up that doesn't win via mill.
edit:
All I can think of so far is arcane golem.
edit2:
and n'zoth
edit:
All I can think of so far is arcane golem.
edit2:
and n'zoth
How Did Karazhan Class Cards Help Each Class, An Early Review
1. Druid -- In Karazhan, Blizzard was trying to push Beast Druid, and they seem to have succeeded. A solid tier 2 deck, Beast Druid is a common sight on ladder and is capable of very strong power plays. Moonglade Portal, on the other hand, doesn't seem to have made much of an impact. I give Druid's Kara Class cards a B+. If Beast Druid gets more help in the next expansion they may end up a tier one deck, and we'll look back at Kara the way TGT is looked at for Shaman.
2. Hunter -- Cloaked Huntress unlocked a new play style, the new secret is very powerful as most classes use spells for removal, and once you do there's suddenly a 4/2 Stealth Beast on the board. The real MVP, however, is Kindly Grandmother. It's synergy with the deck, resistance to removal and place in the curve has propelled Hunter from a tier two deck to a tier one, and made Hunter the most popular deck on the ladder for at least the immediate aftermath of Karazhan's release. Igive Karazhan's Hunter class cards an A+.
3. Mage -- All three of the Mage class cards are strong and every mage you meet on ladder is running at least one of the new cards. Along with some strong neutrals, Karazhan also seems to have Control Mage much more viable than it was previously. Mage's should be very pleased with Kara (not a surprise when we look at the storyline of the adventure). I give Kara's Mage cards an overall A.
4. Paladin -- Ivory Knight is over-performing in Control Paladin, but the other two cards have failed to make much of an impact. I don't know if it's too early to say that Dragon Paladin hasn't been upgraded with the release of its new synergy card, but it sure seems that way. The Paladin portal is also not making much of an impact. Because Ivory Knight is so strong, I can't give the Paladin cards anything less than a B-.
5. Priest -- Oh, poor Priest. Purify was being mocked by the co-presenter of the reveal the instant it was released, and we all remember how upset the Hearthstone community was at the laughably low power of the card in a meta where Priest was already bad. However, it seems that focusing on Purify so much the community failed to see the potential of Priest of the Feast (a new staple in every Priest deck) and Onyx Bishop (which made resurrect Priest suddenly a real deck you could take on ladder and get wins with.) Are two very good mid-game cards enough for a class that is begging for some early game to make them competitive? I say no. Priest was improved, but it's still in a bad spot and so I give Kara's impact on Priest a D+.
6. Rogue -- I have to admit that I know little to nothing about Rogue, but looking at this cards, I see two cards for "Casino Rogue" and one over-costed deathrattle card. Casino Rogue (or Burgle Rogue) may be fun, but it doesn't seem to be competitive and so Rogue's Kara cards get a D.
7, Shaman -- Maelstrom Portal. A new staple card in both midrange and aggressive Shaman decks. Spirit Claws is potentially 1 Mana for 9 damage and there's already a popular new midrange list that runs it to great effect. Wicked Witchdoctor has even been played in a new Totem synergy/bloodlust deck. Two cards that seem to have strong build-around potential that is energizing the Shaman community, and one extremely powerful AOE spell in an age where AOE is hard to come by, I can't give Shaman's Kara cards anything less than an A. I'm glad Shaman got so much help, there were in a bad place pre-Kara. /s
8. Warlock -- Discard lock seems to be the real deal, a powerful new Zoo variant that is even faster than traditional zoo and can pull off some incredibly powerful turns. For 5 Mana, you can get a Charging 5/7, a 3/3 and you can draw two cards. Discardlock is so fast that it doesn't even matter that you're throwing away so many resources because you're winning long before you've exhausted your deck. Kara Kazham has made almost no impact, but does it matter when a brand new archetype has sprung forth and seems to be so good? Warlock get's an A.
9. Warrior. Oh, Warrior. I'm sure everyone is aware that Warrior is my favorite class and that I was disappointed by the cards they got, but let's try to look at them objectively. Protect the King was experimented with heavily in "Taunt Warrior" after it came out, but has completely disappeared since then. Fool's Bane seems very powerful but no one's really found a good home for it, as it's situational, expensive, weak to 4 health minions and requires you to really sacrifice a lot of life to make it work, and what it does is already done better by cards such as Brawl and Gorehowl. Ironforge Portal might find a home in Yogg Soron focused Warrior decks, but the minion it summons are generally pretty weak, and in control decks you can already spend two mana to get 4 armor in most games. Maybe Portal makes the cut when Justicar rotates out, but still, in my testing there was never a point when Shield Block or Slam wouldn't have been better, because any card in my deck is probably better than a random 4 drop. If the 4 slot had more powerful cards like Flamewreathed Faceless and fewer awful cards like the two Drakes (a 4/1 and a 1/4, respectively) maybe the card would be more used. I think the Warrior cards are bad in this meta but possibly very good in a future meta if future expansions support them and no better replacements are released for the current staple cards that rotate out in in 2017. Warrior gets a C.
So, to sum up, Priest and Rogue got the short end of the stick while Hunter, Shaman and Mage players are very happy right now. I think Kara ended up being quite a bit better than a lot of people predicted immediately after the full reveal, with lots of cards making it into the meta and lots of potential left to unlock.
As the meta develops and adapts, we're sure to see these scores change. Someone may come up with an amazing Thief Rogue list or find a Beast Druid built that propels that deck to tier one, but in the immediate aftermath of Karazhan this is how I see its impact on the meta.
Feel free to post your own scores. I'm particularly interested in how Rogue players view the expansion, as Rogue is a class I have very little knowledge of.
1. Druid -- In Karazhan, Blizzard was trying to push Beast Druid, and they seem to have succeeded. A solid tier 2 deck, Beast Druid is a common sight on ladder and is capable of very strong power plays. Moonglade Portal, on the other hand, doesn't seem to have made much of an impact. I give Druid's Kara Class cards a B+. If Beast Druid gets more help in the next expansion they may end up a tier one deck, and we'll look back at Kara the way TGT is looked at for Shaman.
2. Hunter -- Cloaked Huntress unlocked a new play style, the new secret is very powerful as most classes use spells for removal, and once you do there's suddenly a 4/2 Stealth Beast on the board. The real MVP, however, is Kindly Grandmother. It's synergy with the deck, resistance to removal and place in the curve has propelled Hunter from a tier two deck to a tier one, and made Hunter the most popular deck on the ladder for at least the immediate aftermath of Karazhan's release. Igive Karazhan's Hunter class cards an A+.
3. Mage -- All three of the Mage class cards are strong and every mage you meet on ladder is running at least one of the new cards. Along with some strong neutrals, Karazhan also seems to have Control Mage much more viable than it was previously. Mage's should be very pleased with Kara (not a surprise when we look at the storyline of the adventure). I give Kara's Mage cards an overall A.
4. Paladin -- Ivory Knight is over-performing in Control Paladin, but the other two cards have failed to make much of an impact. I don't know if it's too early to say that Dragon Paladin hasn't been upgraded with the release of its new synergy card, but it sure seems that way. The Paladin portal is also not making much of an impact. Because Ivory Knight is so strong, I can't give the Paladin cards anything less than a B-.
5. Priest -- Oh, poor Priest. Purify was being mocked by the co-presenter of the reveal the instant it was released, and we all remember how upset the Hearthstone community was at the laughably low power of the card in a meta where Priest was already bad. However, it seems that focusing on Purify so much the community failed to see the potential of Priest of the Feast (a new staple in every Priest deck) and Onyx Bishop (which made resurrect Priest suddenly a real deck you could take on ladder and get wins with.) Are two very good mid-game cards enough for a class that is begging for some early game to make them competitive? I say no. Priest was improved, but it's still in a bad spot and so I give Kara's impact on Priest a D+.
6. Rogue -- I have to admit that I know little to nothing about Rogue, but looking at this cards, I see two cards for "Casino Rogue" and one over-costed deathrattle card. Casino Rogue (or Burgle Rogue) may be fun, but it doesn't seem to be competitive and so Rogue's Kara cards get a D.
7, Shaman -- Maelstrom Portal. A new staple card in both midrange and aggressive Shaman decks. Spirit Claws is potentially 1 Mana for 9 damage and there's already a popular new midrange list that runs it to great effect. Wicked Witchdoctor has even been played in a new Totem synergy/bloodlust deck. Two cards that seem to have strong build-around potential that is energizing the Shaman community, and one extremely powerful AOE spell in an age where AOE is hard to come by, I can't give Shaman's Kara cards anything less than an A. I'm glad Shaman got so much help, there were in a bad place pre-Kara. /s
8. Warlock -- Discard lock seems to be the real deal, a powerful new Zoo variant that is even faster than traditional zoo and can pull off some incredibly powerful turns. For 5 Mana, you can get a Charging 5/7, a 3/3 and you can draw two cards. Discardlock is so fast that it doesn't even matter that you're throwing away so many resources because you're winning long before you've exhausted your deck. Kara Kazham has made almost no impact, but does it matter when a brand new archetype has sprung forth and seems to be so good? Warlock get's an A.
9. Warrior. Oh, Warrior. I'm sure everyone is aware that Warrior is my favorite class and that I was disappointed by the cards they got, but let's try to look at them objectively. Protect the King was experimented with heavily in "Taunt Warrior" after it came out, but has completely disappeared since then. Fool's Bane seems very powerful but no one's really found a good home for it, as it's situational, expensive, weak to 4 health minions and requires you to really sacrifice a lot of life to make it work, and what it does is already done better by cards such as Brawl and Gorehowl. Ironforge Portal might find a home in Yogg Soron focused Warrior decks, but the minion it summons are generally pretty weak, and in control decks you can already spend two mana to get 4 armor in most games. Maybe Portal makes the cut when Justicar rotates out, but still, in my testing there was never a point when Shield Block or Slam wouldn't have been better, because any card in my deck is probably better than a random 4 drop. If the 4 slot had more powerful cards like Flamewreathed Faceless and fewer awful cards like the two Drakes (a 4/1 and a 1/4, respectively) maybe the card would be more used. I think the Warrior cards are bad in this meta but possibly very good in a future meta if future expansions support them and no better replacements are released for the current staple cards that rotate out in in 2017. Warrior gets a C.
So, to sum up, Priest and Rogue got the short end of the stick while Hunter, Shaman and Mage players are very happy right now. I think Kara ended up being quite a bit better than a lot of people predicted immediately after the full reveal, with lots of cards making it into the meta and lots of potential left to unlock.
As the meta develops and adapts, we're sure to see these scores change. Someone may come up with an amazing Thief Rogue list or find a Beast Druid built that propels that deck to tier one, but in the immediate aftermath of Karazhan this is how I see its impact on the meta.
Feel free to post your own scores. I'm particularly interested in how Rogue players view the expansion, as Rogue is a class I have very little knowledge of.
I don't really agree with Priest getting a D+, both Priest of the Feast and Onyx Bishop are good cards.
They went from being an unplayable class to worst class. I know that sounds horrifying but it's still a notable step up.
I don't agree with Warlock getting an A either. Like one of their existing archetypes got faster but they got 0 support in any other archetype. Every Warlock deck is still the same Zoo you see online. It's going to be around the same place it was pre-Karazhan... just because Zoo got faster doesn't mean it's actually better at dealing with something like Aggro Shaman, in fact it has gotten worse at it.
They went from being an unplayable class to worst class. I know that sounds horrifying but it's still a notable step up.
I don't agree with Warlock getting an A either. Like one of their existing archetypes got faster but they got 0 support in any other archetype. Every Warlock deck is still the same Zoo you see online. It's going to be around the same place it was pre-Karazhan... just because Zoo got faster doesn't mean it's actually better at dealing with something like Aggro Shaman, in fact it has gotten worse at it.
Untrue IMO. Rogue would be hit the hardest if this was the case.
Triple Firelands Portal offering bonus
Honestly as far as Karazhan as a whole goes... nothing really surprised me. I would be shocked to go back to the re-review to see many mishaps on my end (and other pro players). I think the card I most over looked was Babbling Book and even that I said was playable back when I initially saw it.
SonicXtreme
Member
does holy nova work with a 1/1 wild pyromancer? i know it works with a 3/1 pyromancer but just double checking for sure cos this game is inconsistent as hell
My control shaman has over 60% win rate (over 20 games). its basically just a variation of frodan's bogchamp. but the matches can go super long and a troll priest can spank me
But I play at low ranks (or rather high ranks, right now bouncing between 18-20). So as usual my posts doesnt apply to top lvl play
[edit] I keep switching decks. Should just stick to control shammy. if it can maintain this win rate should be able to crawl back to 15
SonicXtreme
Member
ah right on thx
You're absolutely right, Priest was much improved. I still don't know if I want give a higher score, though, because it needed a lot more than it got.
Warlock had it's best deck improved and had a weakness turned into an asset. I'm grading based on the overall impact on the class, not on any particular archetype. Zoo has been reinvigorated. Believe me, would I have preferred some cards to make Control Warlock better or make so you can play a Handlock style deck again without diluting your deck with Reno Jackson? Absolutely. So I agree with you that Kara was disappointing from that point of view, However, I don't know that I can give a low score to a class that got new staple cards for a deck that was already pretty dang strong.
Professor Lich
Member
Finally, a use for Millhouse Manastorm!
Lost to an aggro shaman because he got the 1 in 4 heal totem roll which made it so the 3/1 Golem couldn't be removed with ravaging ghoul, as was my plan when I put 3 damage into it with the second charge of my war axe.
I ended up having to burn an execute, hoping he wouldn't follow up with Flamewreathed, which he did, so I just conceded. Can't beat an aggro Shaman who high rolls.
I ended up having to burn an execute, hoping he wouldn't follow up with Flamewreathed, which he did, so I just conceded. Can't beat an aggro Shaman who high rolls.
Agree. Warlock has 2 archetypes right now, 1 being the very solid staple Zoo and the other being some control variant that's remained somewhat unstable, niche, and sometimes downright unplayable. I wish Blizzard would have focused more on control lock for Kara rather than zoo, which is fine. Sure, you get a different variant of zoolock using the discard cards, but it's essentially the same deck to pilot with the same mentality -- get your minions out, trade efficiently to maintain board control, and go face when you can.
Overall I'd rate Warlocks at a B. They got good cards, but it doesn't add to the diversity of the class at all. Right now, you're stuck running zoo to be even remotely competitive, unless you are really good at the game and can pilot RenoLock successfully.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
I noticed N'zoth is really backwards on multiple uses. I thought n'zoth worked like kelthuzad, which summons based on the order of death. And I think the first time you play n'zoth it works like that.
But then the second time I am sure it summons in the order of played first. So I get a bunch of 2/2 hucksters instead of tomb pillagers, even though tomb pillager was the 3rd or 4th summon the first time n'zoth is played. And my opponent even removed tomb pillager first. Makes very little sense tbh.
Also, I think I am teching in eater of secrets. I'm tired of losing to control mages and yoggs that dump secrets.
But then the second time I am sure it summons in the order of played first. So I get a bunch of 2/2 hucksters instead of tomb pillagers, even though tomb pillager was the 3rd or 4th summon the first time n'zoth is played. And my opponent even removed tomb pillager first. Makes very little sense tbh.
Also, I think I am teching in eater of secrets. I'm tired of losing to control mages and yoggs that dump secrets.
Karsticles
Member
IIRC, Blizzard said N'Zoth is 100% random in its choices.
Yeah that was my assumption too.
control shaman win rate 66% now but these matches take so long. Just had a long deathmatch with a control warrior. I thought he had a pretty good chance but he concede after I got 2 bogchamps on the field. he had already defeated my ragnaros but he used up all his removals so guess it was gg time
This guy played yogg, among the bunch of shit that happened there was a thistle tea... that hit ancient of war. I got through THREE ancient of wars after my board getting yogg'd. I have no idea how could I come back from there without Fandral shenanigans.
One way I think they could change Yogg is that it cast spells from your class, so that you can have an idea what could happen. I don't think anyone other than mage would play it then though.
Next game, coin tuskarr totemic into free totem golem. I lose, nice game. Why I even try.
Honestly the only RNG card I can't tolerate right now is tuskarr, I can deal with the rest but this one considering how broken shaman is, it's so silly.
Maelstrom portal is in every shaman deck now, I see why people don't play zoo right now. Literally everyone runs over zoo. Even hunter isn't easy for zoo right now with all the sticky minions they have and you instantly lose to unleash.
One way I think they could change Yogg is that it cast spells from your class, so that you can have an idea what could happen. I don't think anyone other than mage would play it then though.
Next game, coin tuskarr totemic into free totem golem. I lose, nice game. Why I even try.
Honestly the only RNG card I can't tolerate right now is tuskarr, I can deal with the rest but this one considering how broken shaman is, it's so silly.
Maelstrom portal is in every shaman deck now, I see why people don't play zoo right now. Literally everyone runs over zoo. Even hunter isn't easy for zoo right now with all the sticky minions they have and you instantly lose to unleash.
I played a similar deck in the later end of last season and it got me to rank 6 with the greatest of ease. I used one less Azure Drake because the deck was over flowing with 5 drops (had a Fandral) and I had two Savage Combatants instead of Violet Teachers.
I also used a second aggressive variant which didn't use Curator but had Rag and Leeroy aka the Reynad build which was about as effective.
I think the Violet Teachers are in there to improve the Zoo match up which is one of the worse match ups of this deck but it can really win against a lot of stuff with good openers and curve. I do greatly enjoy Savage combatant though, get that card off of Innervate and you just roll over your opponent.
Overall high end tier 2 is about where I would rank this deck too. It's not as unfair/fast as some of the tier 1 decks but it's unfair enough where it bullies the other decks out.
LMAO Knife Jugger just wins a game... AYY LMAO! Reynad am cry.
I'm gonna build it since I can't buil token yogg yet. thank you
And lol, I saw the same match than you, 20% of happening
I still don't see what's so hot about Malchaezaar...
I guess it fits any deck lacking just a card, but I haven't been thinking it is as "meta-defining" as a lot of players have been saying
Portugeezer
Member
Juggler RNG winning one game; Yogg RNG winning another.
Hearthstone in 2016.
Hearthstone in 2016.
wow everything in this game really is random lol
yeah its pretty crazy right? I see him a lot at rank 20 but soon as I left it I've seen less
First game in about 15 where Fool's Bane was actually good.
Also had a really good minion from Ironforge Portal.
Here's what happens when you high-roll with those two cards:
https://hsreplay.net/replay/RZppPvC6K7JWuUgwS6oRLE
It's good in Arena, that's for sure. It's trash in constructed but at rank 25-20 one good legendary is probably enough to carry you to some easy wins.
Also had a really good minion from Ironforge Portal.
Here's what happens when you high-roll with those two cards:
https://hsreplay.net/replay/RZppPvC6K7JWuUgwS6oRLE
You fucking lose.
It's good in Arena, that's for sure. It's trash in constructed but at rank 25-20 one good legendary is probably enough to carry you to some easy wins.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Speaking of beast druid, I frankly don't even think it's that great of a deck so far. Just beat a beast druid who managed to copy a 7/7 stranglethorn. I think when the deck is hitting face and your stranglethorn can afford to smack face and get copied, yeah those stats just push it over the edge. But whenever I've been around even with the deck going into turn 5, I just don't think it's been all that great.
It certainly doesn't suck and perhaps has room for growth. More like a tier 3 deck, while yogg druid is definitely a tier 1.
Here was my latest match vs it (just finished minutes ago). It was a bit annoying that I couldn't interact with the stealth cards he was playing. And that meant my shadow strike and backstab weren't going to be easily used. In the end he ran out of resources, despite drawing off mark. And I know I didn't play a perfect game either.
https://hsreplay.net/replay/yYvWwFK3B74uxuE9p5pWmJ
It certainly doesn't suck and perhaps has room for growth. More like a tier 3 deck, while yogg druid is definitely a tier 1.
Here was my latest match vs it (just finished minutes ago). It was a bit annoying that I couldn't interact with the stealth cards he was playing. And that meant my shadow strike and backstab weren't going to be easily used. In the end he ran out of resources, despite drawing off mark. And I know I didn't play a perfect game either.
https://hsreplay.net/replay/yYvWwFK3B74uxuE9p5pWmJ
You would've lost that game no matter what other cards you were playing in that situation. He was just way, way far ahead in the match for you to do anything really. There was one situation where you could've used Brawl on his 3 minions but otherwise there wasn't much that you could've done.
Not to mention he got a Yogg that summoned double Call of the Wilds....
Having played a good bit of Beast Druid, I can safely say that Rogue is its worst matchup. They just have so many ways to efficiently clear your stuff and then once you are top decking as Beast Druid, you are screwed.
douchebag hunter is a douchebag, man!!
to be honest, I always get intimidated af when I see those golden portraits.. they usually mean much more experienced players
Super Nothing
Member
That would make Yogg unplayable in Druid since you're almost guaranteed to discard your hand with Astral Communion. It would be amazing in Warrior, though. Shield Block, Bash, and Ironforge Portal to heal up. Whirlwind, Revenge, and Brawl for board wipes. Execute, Shield Slam, and Mortal Strike for removal. And then they have a shitload of card draw on top of that in Slam, Commanding Shout, and Batte Rage.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
I often get the same results whenever I play a typical meta deck or variant. What are it's good match ups then?
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