• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Hearthstone |OT7/7| _ Give Tyrande | _ Blizzard: Give Amazon Money

Status
Not open for further replies.

Dahbomb

Member
To take a diversion from this RNG and balance talk in HS...

I think the most disappointing part about the whole boom of digital card games post HS is how so many of them are just HS clones. Yeah there are some that try something different but many of them are just HS with a gimmick.

And HS is a simplified version of Magic so really all of these games are copying off of Magic.

I want a digital card game that emulates the style of Yugioh. Yugioh under Konami's rule can never live up to its potential, the game in its current state is a far cry from what it can be from a fundamental design point of view.


Spell/traps aren't limited by mana costs which means you can play control starting from turn 1. Monsters have to be tribute summoned or summoned through some other special means to get them out which acts as their cost so you aren't just playing minions on curve. Monsters have both charge and taunt which means as long as you have something big on the board, it can't be ignored. You are rewarded for having the biggest threat on the board unlike these other games where having 2 smaller minions is better than having 1 larger minion. Traps/spells can be played face down and can be triggered when you want to... not when the condition is automatically met (ie. Secrets in HS) so you have the additional skill of their usage. You can make plays during your opponent's turn like casting Traps, Quick play spells and monsters with effects from hand (or effects that work off of graveyard). Monsters can be played face down and some get effects off of "flipping" them over which adds another layer of strategy to the game play.

Fundamentally speaking you can definitely out play your opponent in YGO with bluffs and reads. In reality this is not the case because the game just plays out based on who has the nuts and puts out their boss monster/win condition first because the game has power crept to an insane level now. Battle traps are a thing of the past, flip monsters are too slow, continuous spells/traps (unless broken) are too slow, tribute summoning is too slow (unless again the monster is broken with support) etc. Game is still high skill cap because plays are very complex but it's not as interactive as it could be (hurr hurr fun and interactive).

I want someone to make a YGO copy already in the digital format. And also limit card text complexities by having keywords and such because that game has no keywords and you have texts that are like a page of a book. That will be the GOAT digital card game.
 

Dahbomb

Member
Yogg should stop casting spells if it's killed, transformed or returned to hand. It's garbage that it just keeps going.

How does a dead Yogg keep casting spells from beyond the grave? I don't know Warcraft lore but I'd think a dead god would have its spell-casting ability crippled.

I also think it's dumb that the player who plays Yogg doesn't get the overload if an overload spell is cast.

Maybe Yogg would fulfill it's original purpose as a "fun" card instead of a "I'm losing but if I play this card I could just win lol" card if Yogg cast random spells on random targets for random players. Maybe Yogg wouldn't be so good if there's the potential it could cast Call of the Wild for your opponent. Of course, there'd still be those games where it casts Call of the Wild for one player and Astral Communion for the other, but if Yogg wasn't so consistently good we wouldn't have to deal with it so much so those occasions would be a lot fewer in "real" games (tournament or ladder). Let's put Yogg Soron back in casual mode where he belongs.
This is the change that makes the most sense to me.

Especially since Yogg continues to cast spells for the other player if stolen by Sylvanas. It would only be consistent if that happened (that he stops casting if dead or sapped).

Barring that they can just move it to Wild as a way to "ban" it.
 

Papercuts

fired zero bullets in the orphanage.
When I originally read the text for yogg I thought the randomness would be contained within the same cost of the spells cast that game.

So if a druid casted two wild growths, two swipes, and two nourishes yogg would play random spells that cost 2, 4, and 5. I dunno how strong that would actually work out in practice but in theory I think it would atleast make him something you can actually somewhat build around more.

Yogg is actually the biggest detriment to me ever playing control decks now. It never mattered how bad the meta got or whatever, I always liked playing midrange or control but his random ass bullshit deciding a 10+ minute game is where I just decide to jump on the aggro train as well. He has no counter beyond simply killing people before he is allowed to be played.
 
To take a diversion from this RNG and balance talk in HS...

I think the most disappointing part about the whole boom of digital card games post HS is how so many of them are just HS clones. Yeah there are some that try something different but many of them are just HS with a gimmick.

And HS is a simplified version of Magic so really all of these games are copying off of Magic.

I want a digital card game that emulates the style of Yugioh. Yugioh under Konami's rule can never live up to its potential, the game in its current state is a far cry from what it can be from a fundamental design point of view.


Spell/traps aren't limited by mana costs which means you can play control starting from turn 1. Monsters have to be tribute summoned or summoned through some other special means to get them out which acts as their cost so you aren't just playing minions on curve. Monsters have both charge and taunt which means as long as you have something big on the board, it can't be ignored. You are rewarded for having the biggest threat on the board unlike these other games where having 2 smaller minions is better than having 1 larger minion. Traps/spells can be played face down and can be triggered when you want to... not when the condition is automatically met (ie. Secrets in HS) so you have the additional skill of their usage. You can make plays during your opponent's turn like casting Traps, Quick play spells and monsters with effects from hand (or effects that work off of graveyard). Monsters can be played face down and some get effects off of "flipping" them over which adds another layer of strategy to the game play.

Fundamentally speaking you can definitely out play your opponent in YGO with bluffs and reads. In reality this is not the case because the game just plays out based on who has the nuts and puts out their boss monster/win condition first because the game has power crept to an insane level now. Battle traps are a thing of the past, flip monsters are too slow, continuous spells/traps (unless broken) are too slow, tribute summoning is too slow (unless again the monster is broken with support) etc. Game is still high skill cap because plays are very complex but it's not as interactive as it could be (hurr hurr fun and interactive).

I want someone to make a YGO copy already in the digital format. And also limit card text complexities by having keywords and such because that game has no keywords and you have texts that are like a page of a book. That will be the GOAT digital card game.

I liked Solforge for a while. I stopped playing it and didn't go back, once Hearthstone came out. I wasn't into DCGs in the same way I am now and I've thought about playing it again but I know many sets have come out since I stopped playing. So I kinda feel like ESL is a better opportunity to start when the game is fresh. And I don't think ESL is a simpler version of hearthstone or even a clone, although it definitely took inspiration in some aspects. I think it's closer to magic than hearthstone is with prophecies acting like instants/interrupts and no hero power as well as multicolor decks.

Y'all really should try Duelyst.

It's good.

I tried it. There were some interesting ideas, but didn't hold my interest long. The map/grid system ended up being too boring for me. The mana ramp system especially. The UI and the graphics didn't help any.

When I originally read the text for yogg I thought the randomness would be contained within the same cost of the spells cast that game.

So if a druid casted two wild growths, two swipes, and two nourishes yogg would play random spells that cost 2, 4, and 5. I dunno how strong that would actually work out in practice but in theory I think it would atleast make him something you can actually somewhat build around more.

Yogg is actually the biggest detriment to me ever playing control decks now. It never mattered how bad the meta got or whatever, I always liked playing midrange or control but his random ass bullshit deciding a 10+ minute game is where I just decide to jump on the aggro train as well. He has no counter beyond simply killing people before he is allowed to be played.

Very true. Playing control can be straight up painful now because of yogg.
 

Dahbomb

Member
Yeah there a lot of ways control decks get punished in the game now. Yogg is just one of them.

Especially at lower ranks/casual mode. Everyone putting Malchazaar in their decks. Had a straight up Tempo Mage put it in their deck and still manage to have a crazy early game.

It's not like people have to go out of their way to counter control in this game. Every combo deck counters non Warrior control anyway.
 
I've been playing a Reno mage list the past few days and wondering why I haven't drawn Flamewaker a single time. Turns out I accidentally forgot to include it. Solid explanation.
 

Levi

Banned
It's not like people have to go out of their way to counter control in this game. Every combo deck counters non Warrior control anyway.

I think control mage with Ice Block effectively counters combo decks (specifically Warrior OTK decks) since most of those decks rely on being able to OTK and Ice Block makes that impossible.

They draw their whole deck, combo you, pop your block, you remove their two worgens and they have no resources left to do any additional damage.
 

Shinypogs

Member
The game feels great on a tablet, provided it is powerful enough to run it well.

.
Good to know ^-^ I intend on getting something new and strong that'll last me for 4-5 years as an investment. Given that my s3 still runs hearthstone fine I imagine any brand name tablet built in the last year should be fine.
 

fertygo

Member
Yogg is really out of control lately tho the minnion summon spell felt dilute spell selection so much that made it felt yogg himself never dead after battlecry finished..

Yogg on empty board is almost always won me games lately.

They had to nerf him
 

Levi

Banned
My general philosophy is that nerfs should be very few and far between, but I honestly think they have to nerf Yogg before Blizzcon. I cant imagine Blizzard would be happy having their world champ decided by Yogg RNG.
 

fertygo

Member
My general philosophy is that nerfs should be very few and far between, but I honestly think they have to nerf Yogg before Blizzcon. I cant imagine Blizzard would be happy having their world champ decided by Yogg RNG.
That means Druid have deciding match tho and its very ok because Druid deck is the only thing that made hs tourney watchable at this stage.

What if they nerf yogg and everyone suddenly swap druid with hunter?

Its actually gonna made the tourney worse lmao
 

jgminto

Member
The cool thing about the Runescape card game is how different the format is from HS, even if it doesn't have much competitive depth.
 

Dahbomb

Member
That means Druid have deciding match tho and its very ok because Druid deck is the only thing that made hs tourney watchable at this stage.

What if they nerf yogg and everyone suddenly swap druid with hunter?

Its actually gonna made the tourney worse lmao
If Druid was competitive because of Yogg then if it leaves because of nerfed Yogg then good riddance.

Not a single tear will be shred.
 

Salex_

Member
9orliUT.jpg

Got outplayed by this amazing player. Of course that last card was call of the wild. I don't know why I only play against Hunter when I'm not using Aggro Shaman or Zoolock....I played about 35 games between those 2 decks WANTING to play Hunters and only got matched up with 2 of them. 7 games as Control Warrior and 5 Hunters....wtf is this?
 

fertygo

Member
They aren't fun but neither is losing to Innervated non sense and Yogg comebacks.

And Token/Malygos Druid is still very strong without Yogg.
They stillstrong and I still gonna play it if yogg nerfed..

But what for these tourney player?

If the winrate reduced like 1% does its still good enough for them?

I think not.
 

patchday

Member
To take a diversion from this RNG and balance talk in HS...

I think the most disappointing part about the whole boom of digital card games post HS is how so many of them are just HS clones. Yeah there are some that try something different but many of them are just HS with a gimmick.

And HS is a simplified version of Magic so really all of these games are copying off of Magic.

I want a digital card game that emulates the style of Yugioh. Yugioh under Konami's rule can never live up to its potential, the game in its current state is a far cry from what it can be from a fundamental design point of view.


Spell/traps aren't limited by mana costs which means you can play control starting from turn 1. Monsters have to be tribute summoned or summoned through some other special means to get them out which acts as their cost so you aren't just playing minions on curve. Monsters have both charge and taunt which means as long as you have something big on the board, it can't be ignored. You are rewarded for having the biggest threat on the board unlike these other games where having 2 smaller minions is better than having 1 larger minion. Traps/spells can be played face down and can be triggered when you want to... not when the condition is automatically met (ie. Secrets in HS) so you have the additional skill of their usage. You can make plays during your opponent's turn like casting Traps, Quick play spells and monsters with effects from hand (or effects that work off of graveyard). Monsters can be played face down and some get effects off of "flipping" them over which adds another layer of strategy to the game play.

Fundamentally speaking you can definitely out play your opponent in YGO with bluffs and reads. In reality this is not the case because the game just plays out based on who has the nuts and puts out their boss monster/win condition first because the game has power crept to an insane level now. Battle traps are a thing of the past, flip monsters are too slow, continuous spells/traps (unless broken) are too slow, tribute summoning is too slow (unless again the monster is broken with support) etc. Game is still high skill cap because plays are very complex but it's not as interactive as it could be (hurr hurr fun and interactive).

I want someone to make a YGO copy already in the digital format. And also limit card text complexities by having keywords and such because that game has no keywords and you have texts that are like a page of a book. That will be the GOAT digital card game.

That would be interesting thing to see
 

jgminto

Member
Just drafted Prince Malchezaar in Arena, which seems like the best use of him. Not only for the potential of good class legendaries you don't have but also the demoralising effect of seeing that animation the the beginning.
 

Dahbomb

Member
That would be interesting thing to see
The more powerful spells have unique costs. Like pay life, tribute a monster, discard a card from hand/graveyard, banish cards etc. Or they have a trigger requirement like "have X type of card in your hand/graveyard/deck".

Well the balanced ones anyway... you still have your Dark Holes that were made when the game new and the developers didn't know how the game will play out.
 
Okay, so Charge is 100% getting nerfed so why don't they just do it now? It needs to be nerfed, it's 100% going to be nerfed, so just do it now.

Absolutely no reason to not do it.
 
If Master of Disguise got nerfed, Charge needs to be nerfed. Thaurissan or not.

I don't buy that argument. They aren't really the same category.

I'd be fine with charge being nerfed. In fact, I kinda hope it does to be rid of worgen otk for good. But, at this point I am just saying it is more likely than not that it remain unchanged. In part because emperor is being cycled.
 
Combo decks are fine for the game in general. That doesn't mean every single combo deck is fine for the game.

Worgen OTK right now, I don't even think its that much of a problem. Not nearly as bad as patron warrior used to be at least.
 

Loto

Member
Have the 80 gold friend quest on EU.

Dahveed #1752 if anyone wants. Don't matter if you have the quest or not. I am on right now.
 
What combo decks have there been that have been healthy for the game?

Freeze Mage is awful.
Worgen OTK is awful.
Old Patron was awful.
Oil Rogue was awful.
Anyfin is/was awful.
Combo Druid was awful.
Leeroy has been awful forever.

The list goes on. None of these decks have been even remotely healthy for the state of the game.
 
What combo decks have there been that have been healthy for the game?

Freeze Mage is awful.
Worgen OTK is awful.
Old Patron was awful.
Oil Rogue was awful.
Anyfin is/was awful.
Combo Druid was awful.
Leeroy has been awful forever.

The list goes on. None of these decks have been even remotely healthy for the state of the game.

So everyone should just play your typical curve deck or super defensive control deck?

Combo decks are very high skill and high judgment decks. I don't even know why you put oil rogue on the list, it was practically a midrange deck but that depended on the list being played.

I think combo decks have been healthy for the game, but not every combo deck... just like aggro is healthy for the game, but not every aggro list (undertaker meta).

edit:
What is also great about combo decks is that they often rely on few if any RNG cards to win. So your skill with the deck will often be the thing that rides you to victory or loss. You don't feel cheated out of a win when your yogg saron casts ancestral communion after drawing 6 cards.
 

zoukka

Member
What combo decks have there been that have been healthy for the game?

Freeze Mage is awful.
Worgen OTK is awful.
Old Patron was awful.
Oil Rogue was awful.
Anyfin is/was awful.
Combo Druid was awful.
Leeroy has been awful forever.

The list goes on. None of these decks have been even remotely healthy for the state of the game.

Man... I loved Patron (do the math), Oil Rogue and I love anyfin and freeze mage. Stop nerfing fun decks :(
 

Dahbomb

Member
What combo decks have there been that have been healthy for the game?

Freeze Mage is awful.
Worgen OTK is awful.
Old Patron was awful.
Oil Rogue was awful.
Anyfin is/was awful.
Combo Druid was awful.
Leeroy has been awful forever.

The list goes on. None of these decks have been even remotely healthy for the state of the game.
This opinion is bad and you should feel bad.
 
I think yogg's spell selection needs to be limited.

At first I thought maybe yogg only casts spells from your own class. But that would probably be... downright OP in mage and much much weaker in other classes, even though it would create a much more predictable outcome.

Then I thought of servant of yogg saron. That card limits the spell to spells that cost 5 or less. So maybe something like that?
 
I don't think there's a good enough way to nerf it.

You have to ban it from Standard.

I don't really care if it's a bad opinion but at least I am not calling for the removal of an entire archetype integral to card games.

Or, you know, actually foster combo decks that are something more than "draw, stall, OTK."
 

Dahbomb

Member
Or, you know, actually foster combo decks that are something more than "draw, stall, OTK."
What's an example of a good combo deck then?

Discard Zoo is a "combo" deck. You combo the Imp with Discards and you get tempo/value. Is that the type of combos you mean?

Token Druid is a combo deck but really it's just spamming spell to fill the board. There's no one combo in it that defines the deck, just a bunch of spell synergies. Kinda like Tempo Mage but instead of damage they get board presence.

What about the Questing Adventurer Miracle Rogue decks? Is that combo deck acceptable?


For a lot of combo decks you can't pull off the combo without drawing and stalling. I think it's the OTK that you have the real issue with.
 
I think yogg's spell selection needs to be limited.

I could see something where there's a pool of Old God spells akin to the pool that Ysera has. Somewhere in the range of 5-10 cards. They can all be minorly beneficial like deal three damage to a random enemy, deal one damage to all minions, or whatever. That way it would function more like a C'Thun or N'Zoth deck. You're still building up to a swing turn for ten Mana, but it's not some wild apocalypse where anything can happen.

Though, if all spells were good, I'd say it'd have to be adjusted to one Old God spell for every two or three spells the player had casted that game.

Not sure how'd that go over but it's the first thing I can think of.
 
What combo decks have there been that have been healthy for the game?

Freeze Mage is awful.
Worgen OTK is awful.
Old Patron was awful.
Oil Rogue was awful.
Anyfin is/was awful.
Combo Druid was awful.
Leeroy has been awful forever.

The list goes on. None of these decks have been even remotely healthy for the state of the game.
Goddamn son.

I think the only deck I have a problem with there is Patron.
 
What's an example of a good combo deck then?

Discard Zoo is a "combo" deck. You combo the Imp with Discards and you get tempo/value. Is that the type of combos you mean?

Token Druid is a combo deck but really it's just spamming spell to fill the board. There's no one combo in it that defines the deck, just a bunch of spell synergies. Kinda like Tempo Mage but instead of damage they get board presence.

What about the Questing Adventurer Miracle Rogue decks? Is that combo deck acceptable?


For a lot of combo decks you can't pull off the combo without drawing and stalling. I think it's the OTK that you have the real issue with.

OTK is the major issue I have, yes. Freeze Mage is the perfect example of a deck that has no place in Hearthstone in my opinion.

The decks you listed also gravitate more toward what I would want to see from combo decks as well. I mean, I have my qualms about discard Zoo but that's more to do with Blizzard giving Zoo even more powerful stuff but the idea of the deck itself is great. Same for Token Druid. Combining cards to create powerful effects and maximize their value to the point that your opponent likely can't deal with it is something I love and what I would like to see more of.

Goddamn son.

I think the only deck I have a problem with there is Patron.

Not saying all those decks should('ve) be(en) purged from the game but they're all pretty shitty. Like, at least Anyfin is countered pretty well by aggro. Oil Rogue, a deck I personally despised with all my being, could at least be mitigated with some burst healing. Even Leeroy is fine by itself, it's the amount of combos you can pull off with cheap buffs that make it shitty.

Freeze Mage though, screw that deck now and forever.
 

Miletius

Member
If anything, I'd like to see more "combo" decks like Oil Rogue exist. Swing turns are becoming more rare in Hearthstone and I think it's detrimental to the game. We need more effects that can take back the board/game after a successful fend off of the play on curve mentality.
 
Just because we are treading on some gray area:
The term "combo" doesn't mean "good synergy" in card games. Oil Rogue is not a combo deck. A combo deck is one where, when the combo is pulled off, the game is usually over. Freeze Mage is a combo deck. Old Grim Patron was a combo deck. Current Grim Patron is not.
 
I'm 1000% on the nerf Yogg from orbit or remove it from standard train. I'm sick and fucking tired of losing games where I have a dominant board and a health lead to a ridiculous Yogg
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom