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[thepotatoman]

Nightbane Templar is at least fantastic for Zoobot decks, if that means anything.

Seems like everyone already forgot about that type of deck, but I still really like it. Of the suboptimal but playable deck archetypes that came out of this expansion, that one's probably my favorite.

 

[Yaboosh]

For how easy the aggro shaman is supposed to be to play (and seems to be when playing against it) I can't win for shit with it. And whenever I give it a go, I am always filled with shame. Such shame. Deep deep shame. Like bell ringing shame.


I have 33 wins with Shamans total so not like I have put much practice into it, and don't really plan to practice it much.


Still having a ton of fun with control mage. Playing a slightly modified version of the strifecro battlecry list posted above. I had to add a Cabalist Tome. Such a fun card.

 

[sibarraz]

I think that Blizzard should remove the totem tag for Totem Golem in order to nerf aggro shaman without straight up murdering

That way

-Tuskar Totemic is nerfed
-Thing from Below is slightly nerfed.

Aggro Shaman will still be a top deck but at least will not be as bullshit to fight as it is now, because the game is suffering for this kind of RNG

The other thing could be to make that tuskar totemic only could summon basic totems, at least I'm trying to think on rational changes that blizzard could do without "keeping the heart of the card"

 

[Dahbomb]

Remove Totem tag from Totem Golem... man I don't know about that lol.

 

[thepotatoman]

For how easy the aggro shaman is supposed to be to play (and seems to be when playing against it) I can't win for shit with it. And whenever I give it a go, I am always filled with shame. Such shame. Deep deep shame. Like bell ringing shame.


I have 33 wins with Shamans total so not like I have put much practice into it, and don't really plan to practice it much.


Still having a ton of fun with control mage. Playing a slightly modified version of the strifecro battlecry list posted above. I had to add a Cabalist Tome. Such a fun card.

My best guess is you're not planning out your overloads since you haven't played much shaman. Either that or you're over trading and not getting enough face damage in. Only other thing you need to think about at all is playing around board clears, but that's probably not important enough to get a low win percentage just from messing that up.

 

[Eddie Bax]

Hey guys, I have a play a friend quest pending on my secondary account over on the European server. Hit me up if you're playing right now for an easy 80 gold. EddieBax#1403

Edit: and, I'm good!

 

[Mr Cola]

Hey guys, I have a play a friend quest pending on my secondary account over on the European server. Hit me up if you're playing right now for an easy 80 gold. EddieBax#1403

Edit: and, I'm good!

Done!

 

[Levi]

For how easy the aggro shaman is supposed to be to play (and seems to be when playing against it) I can't win for shit with it. And whenever I give it a go, I am always filled with shame. Such shame. Deep deep shame. Like bell ringing shame.

Well, with aggro Shaman, you really have to maximize your resources, know not only the clock you are putting on your opponent but the clock they are putting on you, and react appropriately. You have to do this while planning your turns around overload to make efficient use of your mana. Miss face damage? Miss lethal, run out of cards, and die. Don't respond to your opponent's threats? They outrace you and you die.How to you know when to put damage into minions vs face? It's a game-winning decision, and it takes knowing both the deck you're playing inside and out and also the deck of your opponent.

Aggro Shaman is tough to play at the highest level, but it's also easy to win with even if you don't play optimally because it's such an efficient deck at pushing damage, so drawing well can bail you out of having to make good decisions.

There's no reason to feel shame for playing any deck. If you want to learn how to play against Aggro Shaman, the best way to do that is to actually practice the deck.

If you hate Aggro Shaman and want it nerfed, the best way to accomplish that is to keep playing the deck. The more people who play it, and the wider the gulf is between the win rate of Aggro Shaman and every other deck, the more likely the archetype gets addressed by Blizzard.

If you just want to play the best deck in the game, there's no harm in that either. No one gets to judge you for playing the game the way you want to.

 

[Dahbomb]

If you hate Aggro Shaman and want it nerfed, the best way to accomplish that is to keep playing the deck. The more people who play it, and the wider the gulf is between the win rate of Aggro Shaman and every other deck, the more likely the archetype gets addressed by Blizzard.

Best advice I have seen in this thread.

 

[sibarraz]

Remove Totem tag from Totem Golem... man I don't know about that lol.

I know that someone would answer that lol

At this point who cares about name consistency

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

I think that Blizzard should remove the totem tag for Totem Golem in order to nerf aggro shaman without straight up murdering

That way

-Tuskar Totemic is nerfed
-Thing from Below is slightly nerfed.

Aggro Shaman will still be a top deck but at least will not be as bullshit to fight as it is now, because the game is suffering for this kind of RNG

The other thing could be to make that tuskar totemic only could summon basic totems, at least I'm trying to think on rational changes that blizzard could do without "keeping the heart of the card"

Can easily change tuskar to summon basic totems and thing from below to be buffed by basic totems only.

 

[fertygo]

I still fine with thing from below

Its supposed to be that good for helping various type of Shaman deck

Its really fine that card being central piece of Shaman instead Trogg

Prob is trogg still exist and tuskarr is the most bs card in this point

 

[cartographer]

I lived close to the discard lock dream today.

Turn six, have Imp + stuff on board, drop second Imp and Doomguard, summoning Golem and discarding Soulfire. Draw second Doomguard and play it on turn seven. Opponent concedes and friend requests.

I felt dirty. At least it only summoned one Golem.

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

Thijs in maximum devastation, faced a bunch of Shamans in a row, TT rolled 5 Totem Golems in a row with the 6th one rolling Manatide Totem:

https://clips.twitch.tv/thijshs/AnnoyingGuanacoRiPepperonis


He's like one of the most optimist and cheerful guys playing the game right now at a high level... to see that devastation is quite sad.

"This game is supposed to be fun..."

I learned a very long time ago that games are not fun.

I've played enough MvC2 and UMvC3 to know that's just the way life is.

 

[BananasWithGuns]

Burgle Rogue has to be the most busted deck in the game when you curve out. Like, this dude has had 8-10 cards in his hand the entire game while playing stuff every single turn.

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

Burgle Rogue has to be the most busted deck in the game when you curve out. Like, this dude has had 8-10 cards in his hand the entire game while playing stuff every single turn.

Sounds like you didn't have any pressure. Burgle minions are slow... burgle is slow...

 

[Dahbomb]

I lived close to the discard lock dream today.

Turn six, have Imp + stuff on board, drop second Imp and Doomguard, summoning Golem and discarding Soulfire. Draw second Doomguard and play it on turn seven. Opponent concedes and friend requests.

I felt dirty. At least it only summoned one Golem.

That's nothing, I had double Imps on the board. Two Golems in hand, top deck Doomguard... summon 2 3/3s for free and draw 4 cards! Then I got Soulfire from one of the draws for lethal.

Absolutely filthy.

 

[BananasWithGuns]

Sounds like you didn't have any pressure. Burgle minions are slow... burgle is slow...

No, I was playing stuff.

He had coin Huckster, into Huckster, into FoK into Barnes, which is why I said curving out. Just those first four turns gave him ridiculous card advantage.

 

[patchday]

coming from MOBAs where nerfs come at least every 2 weeks- I thank goodness Blizzard takes their time with nerfs. It sucks saving up for month to acquire something only for it to get nerfed into the ground. so many devastating nerfs get recommended so much. but I never get triggered cause I know balance changes come rarely lol

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

No, I was playing stuff.

He had coin Huckster, into Huckster, into FoK into Barnes, which is why I said curving out. Just those first four turns gave him ridiculous card advantage.

Yeah, sounds like you didn't have any significant board presence if you're far behind from a double huckster opening.

What were you playing?

 

[Dahbomb]

coming from MOBAs where nerfs come at least every 2 weeks- I thank goodness Blizzard takes their time with nerfs. It sucks saving up for month to acquire something only for it to get nerfed into the ground. so many devastating nerfs get recommended so much. but I never get triggered cause I know balance changes come rarely lol

You get your full dust refund back so it's not a big deal.

 

[Karsticles]

I learned a very long time ago that games are not fun.

I've played enough MvC2 and UMvC3 to know that's just the way life is.

You don't have fun playing Marvel?

Thijs in maximum devastation, faced a bunch of Shamans in a row, TT rolled 5 Totem Golems in a row with the 6th one rolling Manatide Totem:

https://clips.twitch.tv/thijshs/AnnoyingGuanacoRiPepperonis


He's like one of the most optimist and cheerful guys playing the game right now at a high level... to see that devastation is quite sad.

"This game is supposed to be fun..."

:-(

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

You get your full dust refund back so it's not a big deal.

But only for cards directly nerfed. If your deck suddenly sucks or you don't like it any longer, you're shit outta luck on all the cards not nerfed. Case and point, patron warrior. Basic card gets nerfed and no one got a refund.

It's understandable, and it is what it is. It's a great thing they don't nerf stuff constantly, they'd lose players IMHO.

 

[patchday]

But only for cards directly nerfed. If your deck suddenly sucks or you don't like it any longer, you're shit outta luck on all the cards not nerfed. Case and point, patron warrior. Basic card gets nerfed and no one got a refund.

It's understandable, and it is what it is. It's a great thing they don't nerf stuff constantly, they'd lose players IMHO.

Yeah I got family, job, and kids. I cant keep up with games with constantly shifting metas

 

[Mr Cola]

zoo, shaman, hunter, zoo, shaman, hunter, zoo, shaman, hunter

Its proof that people genuinely do not want to play a game, because there is no game, there is just playing cards and hitting face, its not a game, its incredible to me that people would do this and get any enjoyment.

 

[patchday]

You know what intimidates me more then any Golden hero with legendary card backs?

A friendly dude that greets you soon as match starts. My win rate plummets to cheery dudes. This druid just now greeted me first so I know hes up to something

zoo, shaman, hunter, zoo, shaman, hunter, zoo, shaman, hunter

Its proof that people genuinely do not want to play a game, because there is no game, there is just playing cards and hitting face, its not a game, its incredible to me that people would do this and get any enjoyment.

Yeah you must be playing Control deck. my control shaman has 60% win rate but I rarely play that deck cause any loss feels so devastating. It takes so long to win against some matchups and a loss just feels crushing.

I'd rather just face roll ppl lol

 

[bronkonagurski]

You know what intimidates me more then any Golden hero with legendary card backs?

A friendly dude that greets you soon as match starts. My win rate plummets to cheery dudes. This druid just now greeted me first so I know hes up to something

True. There is nothing worse than not being fast enough to hit the Squelch button and they get in a greeting. Mind games, yo. Mind games. >_>

 

[Dahbomb]

zoo, shaman, hunter, zoo, shaman, hunter, zoo, shaman, hunter

Its proof that people genuinely do not want to play a game, because there is no game, there is just playing cards and hitting face, its not a game, its incredible to me that people would do this and get any enjoyment.

People enjoy winning and they enjoy winning quickly and efficiently.

It's not rocket science.

 

[Yaboosh]

Played against a renolock and he just destroyed me. My control mage doesn't have near enough burn to handle their resources. It felt like a really really uneven matchup in his favor.

 

[Mr Cola]

People enjoy winning and they enjoy winning quickly and efficiently.

It's not rocket science.

It is the most pointless form of victory, one where you didnt even have to try, its flipping a coin and hoping its heads and calling it skillful.

If your barrier for victory is "Oh i won in mulligan" or not then a rethink is needed.

 

[patchday]

True. There is nothing worse than not being fast enough to hit the Squelch button and they get in a greeting. Mind games, yo. Mind games. >_>

lol!

People enjoy winning and they enjoy winning quickly and efficiently.

It's not rocket science.

Yeah I was discussing this with friends. We concluded it just takes way less time if you can face roll yer way up the ladder.

 

[The Mango Sentinel]

It is the most pointless form of victory, one where you didnt even have to try, its flipping a coin and hoping its heads and calling it skillful.

If your barrier for victory is "Oh i won in mulligan" or not then a rethink is needed.

Just how it is man. And that goes for any genre of game. I think it's just more noticeable in card games because there is a lot of RNG involved and not just pure skill.

 

[Eddie Bax]

Yeah I was discussing this with friends. We concluded it just takes way less time if you can face roll yer way up the ladder.

Absolutely, this is a huge factor behind why ladder play is so aggressive. Even the best decks (when spread across all players who play them) have average win rates only a few percentage points over 50%, so if you're looking to make ladder progress with limited time, you have to maximize the amount of games you can get in.

If there was some way to reward slower decks more per win, this might slow the meta down, but I don't know how you do that in a fair way.

 

[Mr Cola]

Just how it is man. And that goes for any genre of game. I think it's just more noticeable in card games because there is a lot of RNG involved and not just pure skill.

Its not even rng, it seems like the purpose of most players is to make it so that their win condition exists completely independent of any actual decision making, these people dont invent the decks, they dont test the decks, there is no creative output, there is no mechanical output, so they are playing a game where neither their brain or their muscles are stimulated.

To me, personally, that is unfathomable

But since everyone does it I guess its human nature, but it makes the game an absolute joke in any competitive sense.

 

[Karsticles]

I got my first ever draw in Hearthstone. :-O

 

[Dahbomb]

Playing Zoo is one of the harder decks to play well.

This might not make sense but it's true.

Consider this... you have 3 1 drops in hand and you have the coin. You can play two 1 drops first turn with the coin or you can play one 1 drop and then play 2 1 drops after that. Or you can play a 2 drop instead next turn.

Ok so what if it's 3 different 1 drops now? Which do you play first? Which two do you play together if you choose to use the coin? Which do you follow up after?

That's just the decision making in the first turn. It starts to get more involved when you are into turns 4-5 and you have more cards you can play or not play.

When you have option of being able to play your hand in numerous ways then you have more impact on the game and you have more decisions to make. Like if you are going up against a Priest who does nothing until playing a Blademaster on turn 3... he's not making any skillful decisions there. By the time he is able to make any decisions, his decisions are mostly restricted to survival mode because you are the one dictating the flow of the match.

Like it's not exactly skillful to wait until turn 5 for your Holy Nova when the Zoo has stacked up their board. The Zoo player on the other hand has the option to not play hard into Holy Nova or risk playing into it for the bigger pay of.

Zoo is also the most position intensive deck in the game. You kinda always have to play your minions as if you have Wolf or Argus in hand (even though it might not be in your deck) because you might draw into it and you don't want to be in a position where your minions are played in a non optimum manner and you lose out on percentages. Being able to trade up your 1/1 and being one damage off is like a win loss type decision and it can happen if you decided to play the Imp Gang on the right instead of the left.

Now Zoo has additional Discard mechanic to consider. You might actually keep Imp in hand to combo with Doomguard on a later turn. Sometimes you might have to trade up your Imp even though you have a Discard in hand that you can play later. If you are playing Silverware Golem you have to weight playing the card from hand vs waiting for an opportunity to discard it. You have more lethal outs now with Soul Fires. Hand size management is more important, you have to juggle with efficiency while also being aggressive with using up cards.

Think of the next time you play a 1/3 then use an Abusive Sergeant to buff it... you have to choose which side of the board you play that Abusive and that might end up mattering in the game.

Zoo is the Ryu of Hearthstone. If you can play Zoo well then you can play Hearthstone well because it is fundamentally what HS is about. This deck teaches you how to make optimum plays, manage hand, holding back cards to play around other cards, minion positioning, trading vs going face and combining card synergies, how to mulligan based on match ups (right down to specific 1 drops, in certain match ups you might even toss away 1 drops from your opening mulligan). Gather two different players, have them watch a high level Zoo match and ask what they would do before every turn. I can bet that both of those players will make a lot of different choices from each other and their decisions will be different from the match video as well.



The main issue with the game right now is that you can win with Zoo while making sub optimal plays. It's very hard to punish 3 1 drops by turn 2. Sometimes you win the game by overwhelming them regardless of the decision paths you took to win it.

 

[Salex_]

Can't win a single win with a control deck. Fucking play on curve and drop all your load dominates this game so hard. Ladder is so bad right now man.

 

[patchday]

It's not fun tho to be in a long match with a Priest (and they entomb and mind control) or Fatigue/Control-Warrior where they constantly just hit their little Armor button for 4 (Justicar buff)

Cant blame players just gotta blame the devs for these weird cards. I dunno who thought mind control and entomb were great ideas. That crap doesnt come from WoW. You cant control someone permenantly lol just for a few seconds.

maybe with expansion they rework priests- delete mind control. move justicar to Wild. Then maybe I'll play more control shaman mroe

But right now its just not that rewarding

 

[Shinypogs]

Clearly we need more secrets ! While they be can be annoying as hell they actually make people think about their moves to minimize the effect they have. Heck as someone who plays a wip secret hunter it's also important to know when to play which secrets against which matchup and when to bluff about which secret is currently on the board. Same with mage secrets, not too sure about paladin. More complexity and forced thoughtful reactions = less successful just running yourself towards victory.

I'll unabashedly admit I do love playing zoo though, it stems from both my love of playing zerg and my general tendency to be a summoner in any game that lets me wander around with a big ol pack of minions to do my fighting while I micro manage them or cast spells from safety. In hearthstone you still have to play around aoe dmg, brawl, your opponents getting big ass minions out you can't ignore etc. I wouldn't say zoo is brainless but it's probably the easiest and cheapest thing for new players to learn.

 

[patchday]

Can't win a single win with a control deck. Fucking play on curve and all drop your load dominates this game so hard. Ladder is so bad right now man.

Are you higher rank? To be honest I know my control shaman can win. But its bloody hard work. This is 18-20

Having a tough time. Usually its cake to get to 16 and then I work another couple hrs to get to 15. But I usually wait to past mid month

First time I really tried to do rank so early. Learning a lot tho (I think?). Maybe by the time mid month gets here I can try to get past 15

edit- just switched to lazy decks like Aggro shaman and Hunter tho. Hoping to climb now

 

[bronkonagurski]

The main issue with the game right now is that you can win with Zoo while making sub optimal plays. It's very hard to punish 3 1 drops by turn 2. Sometimes you win the game by overwhelming them regardless of the decision paths you took to win it.

Zoolock was the first deck I ever played on ladder (circa May 2015) and I love it, but what you stated here is very true nowadays. It is so easy to get overwhelmed early regardless of the skill level of the opponent if you are playing a slower deck or not getting good draws early.

 

[BananasWithGuns]

Switch to Druid, instantly run into 5 Zoolocks in a row.

That 50/50 matchmaking at work.

 

[bronkonagurski]

Switch to Druid, instantly run into 5 Zoolocks in a row.

That 50/50 matchmaking at work.

Sounds about right.

 

[V-Faction]

Thijs in maximum devastation, faced a bunch of Shamans in a row, TT rolled 5 Totem Golems in a row with the 6th one rolling Manatide Totem:

https://clips.twitch.tv/thijshs/AnnoyingGuanacoRiPepperonis


He's like one of the most optimist and cheerful guys playing the game right now at a high level... to see that devastation is quite sad.

"This game is supposed to be fun..."

That legitimately made me feel upset.

Anyhoo, in other news, Thief Rogue looks so damn cool. I'm glad it worked out. Right now, it has grasped my attention more so than any other deck. Going forward, I wouldn't mind it as an archetype.

 

[wiibomb]

Playing Zoo is one of the harder decks to play well.

This might not make sense but it's true.

Consider this... you have 3 1 drops in hand and you have the coin. You can play two 1 drops first turn with the coin or you can play one 1 drop and then play 2 1 drops after that. Or you can play a 2 drop instead next turn.

Ok so what if it's 3 different 1 drops now? Which do you play first? Which two do you play together if you choose to use the coin? Which do you follow up after?

That's just the decision making in the first turn. It starts to get more involved when you are into turns 4-5 and you have more cards you can play or not play.

When you have option of being able to play your hand in numerous ways then you have more impact on the game and you have more decisions to make. Like if you are going up against a Priest who does nothing until playing a Blademaster on turn 3... he's not making any skillful decisions there. By the time he is able to make any decisions, his decisions are mostly restricted to survival mode because you are the one dictating the flow of the match.

Like it's not exactly skillful to wait until turn 5 for your Holy Nova when the Zoo has stacked up their board. The Zoo player on the other hand has the option to not play hard into Holy Nova or risk playing into it for the bigger pay of.

Zoo is also the most position intensive deck in the game. You kinda always have to play your minions as if you have Wolf or Argus in hand (even though it might not be in your deck) because you might draw into it and you don't want to be in a position where your minions are played in a non optimum manner and you lose out on percentages. Being able to trade up your 1/1 and being one damage off is like a win loss type decision and it can happen if you decided to play the Imp Gang on the right instead of the left.

Now Zoo has additional Discard mechanic to consider. You might actually keep Imp in hand to combo with Doomguard on a later turn. Sometimes you might have to trade up your Imp even though you have a Discard in hand that you can play later. If you are playing Silverware Golem you have to weight playing the card from hand vs waiting for an opportunity to discard it. You have more lethal outs now with Soul Fires. Hand size management is more important, you have to juggle with efficiency while also being aggressive with using up cards.

Think of the next time you play a 1/3 then use an Abusive Sergeant to buff it... you have to choose which side of the board you play that Abusive and that might end up mattering in the game.

Zoo is the Ryu of Hearthstone. If you can play Zoo well then you can play Hearthstone well because it is fundamentally what HS is about. This deck teaches you how to make optimum plays, manage hand, holding back cards to play around other cards, minion positioning, trading vs going face and combining card synergies, how to mulligan based on match ups (right down to specific 1 drops, in certain match ups you might even toss away 1 drops from your opening mulligan). Gather two different players, have them watch a high level Zoo match and ask what they would do before every turn. I can bet that both of those players will make a lot of different choices from each other and their decisions will be different from the match video as well.



The main issue with the game right now is that you can win with Zoo while making sub optimal plays. It's very hard to punish 3 1 drops by turn 2. Sometimes you win the game by overwhelming them regardless of the decision paths you took to win it.

it is really one of the most complicated and fascinating decks to use, I've been learning one the most fundamental mechanics of zoo: positioning. Positioning in zoo is everything, specially considering Dire Wolf Apha psynergy with Imp Gang Boss or all the minions with Defender of Argus. I've been following this guide for that because it can be pretty tricky.

it is interesting how cheap that deck is, but how well it can teach HS, of course if the player can endure training with it

 

[ZealousD]

Thing From Below should be a 4/5
Flamewreathed Faceless should be a 7/6
Call of the Wild should have its mana cost increased by 1

Tada! Standard is fixed.

 

[BananasWithGuns]

Why on earth would Thing from Below need a nerf with a majority of the best totem cards getting pushed out in the spring? Like, without Totem Golem and Tuskarr Totemic that card instantly becomes mediocre.

 

[Officerrob]

Thing From Below is fine, Tuskarr Totemic and Yogg need to be addressed

 

[Dahbomb]

Why on earth would Thing from Below need a nerf with a majority of the best totem cards getting pushed out in the spring? Like, without Totem Golem and Tuskarr Totemic that card instantly becomes mediocre.

Thing from Below will never be mediocre. People run that card in Control Shaman because it's honestly not that difficult to discount it. Shaman will probably get more totems in the future anyway.

Card has always been crazy good and every Shaman deck runs two of it.

That said I don't think it should get nerfed even though the card should never have been printed as it was.


Also I am like 70% sure within the next month we will see a nerf or more. Blizzcon is approaching and Blizzard has been getting a lot of flak. Same thing happened last year with Grim Patron. Back then they used to say the same stuff that Grim Patron didn't have the win rates or the popularity so it was fine but we have the Shaman stats now which are in line with Blizzard's own stats of it having the highest win percentages. We also had Karazhan after Old Gods as an attempt to "balance" but so far it has been unsuccessful.

The nerf was announced on October 13th 2015, so yeah... in 1 month's time we might see something.

 

[jgminto]

I don't think we'll see any nerfs outside the core set. An expansion card will have to completely break the entire meta for it to see a nerf instead of rotating out.