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D

Dahbomb

Member
Krush doesn't get played like 70% of Hunter cards because it's a poorly designed class and that results in it being very narrow in its scope.

Like if Krush did 10 damage instead of 8 and had 4 less HP then Hunters would start playing it.

People should go back in history and check out the cards that Hunters have gotten.


They actually tried to make top deck Hunter a thing:

22453.png


14444-core-rager.png


plus Quickshot.


Like... wow. And this was back when Hunter was actually crazy at aggro... good thing they stopped making cards like this for Hunter (or at least not good ones like Quick Shot).
 
R

Raxus

Member
Dahbomb said:
Krush doesn't get played like 70% of Hunter cards because it's a poorly designed class and that results in it being very narrow in its scope.

Like... wow. And this was back when Hunter was actually crazy at aggro... good thing they stopped making cards like this for Hunter (or at least not good ones like Quick Shot).
Click to expand...

Blizzard has poor focus for hunter outside of rush and midrange which it excels at. When they get a card for that meta it tends to push them into the high tiers until they are nerfed. Blizzard then tries to make hunter cards to give them another spin and it is just ignored because one deck type is just overwhelmingly strong. It is also very telling that each major card update included a major nerf for hunter typically. Blizzard really needs to take a closer look at the class if they want to balance it for the next rotation.
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
Today my mind was blown when I learned that "meta" (when it comes to games) is actually short for "most effective tactic available". All this time I thought it was something else.
 
K

Karsticles

Member
Dahbomb said:
Today my mind was blown when I learned that "meta" (when it comes to games) is actually short for "most effective tactic available". All this time I thought it was something else.
Click to expand...
I'm sure someone came up with that, but "meta" as a prefix is really old and just means "above". The metagame refers to players who are making decisions about the game based on knowledge outside of the match they are currently playing. For example, even though you don't "know" your opponent's deck, if you see Alex's Champion played on turn 2, your meta knowledge ascertains that this is likely a Dragon Warrior deck, and you adjust accordingly. Knowledge of deck frequency also leads you to do things like tech in cards to counter what decks you have been seeing frequently. This is all part of the metagame, though in video games it has come to mean something like "the state of the game".
 
T

thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
That does make me curious about the etymology of meta.

Wikipedia seems to atribute the invention of the metagame concept to a 1971 Book "Paradoxes of Rationality: Games, Metagames, and Political Behavior", which seems to be using it as the prefix, like "metalanguage", not as an acronym.

That book is more about game theory in the social science/economics sense, but the overall concept is the same.
 
P

Pooya

Member
I was watching Vlps streaming control warrior earlier, Mike Donais himself came to the chat.

There was talk of Justicar rotating out in the chat, he said something like we make awesome new warrior cards to make up for it. So I guess there will be more armor gain in future, duh. I think they're not going to discard the idea of "better hero powers", nothing can stop them putting that text on some other card or class card this time.

Then the 2/3 deathrattle taunt was brought up, he said the slime had taunt originally but they didn't know how strong/popular N'Zoth decks are going to be and even a weak card like that sees play. I'm not sure if I remember this part about future design correctly or not but he wasn't against something like that in future. It's hard to look up chat logs on the vod.
 
F

fertygo

Member
miladesn said:
I was watching Vlps streaming control warrior earlier, Mike Donais himself came to the chat.

There was talk of Justicar rotating out in the chat, he said something like we make awesome new warrior cards to make up for it. So I guess there will be more armor gain in future, duh. I think they're not going to discard the idea of "better hero powers", nothing can stop them putting that text on some other card or class card this time.

Then the 2/3 deathrattle taunt was brought up, he said the slime had taunt originally but they didn't know how strong/popular N'Zoth decks are going to be and even a weak card like that sees play. I'm not sure if I remember this part about future design correctly or not but he wasn't against something like that in future. It's hard to look up chat logs on the vod.
Click to expand...
Awesome

I always want to play control Warrior, but can't justify craft justicar at this late

I better prep the dust for the standard 2.0 version
 
Z

ZealousD

Makes world leading predictions like "The sun will rise tomorrow"
Dahbomb said:
Today my mind was blown when I learned that "meta" (when it comes to games) is actually short for "most effective tactic available". All this time I thought it was something else.
Click to expand...

That's a made up backronym. "Meta" is a prefix and in its current context is essentially means that something is referencing itself. So the metagame is the "game about the game".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meta
 
P

patchday

Member
Asbel said:
Good thoughts. I did not consider the benefits of the greedy version. Would be interested in watching your matches or replays. I just didn't like having to play far sight on turn 3 vs aggro since it may do nothing to stop the bleeding.
Click to expand...


Yeah Frodan's bogchamp is basically what I run. I usually use Ancestral spirit on Cairne or Earth Elementals. And I dupe them with Faceless. If opponent plays sylvannas. I dupe her with Faceless and then hex.

I have Ragnaros in there for cleanup. Sometimes I'll dupe him too as a finisher.

I only had time to play 3 ranked matches this month (w/Control Shaman) but went 2/3 so far. Granted, a lot of the face decks are not around as much right now. 2 of my matchups were against Warrior.

Control shaman my most fun deck but certain matchups (Warrior / Priest) are not too fun to deal with thus I dont play it too often on ladder

miladesn said:
I was watching Vlps streaming control warrior earlier, Mike Donais himself came to the chat.

There was talk of Justicar rotating out in the chat, he said something like we make awesome new warrior cards to make up for it. So I guess there will be more armor gain in future, duh. I think they're not going to discard the idea of "better hero powers", nothing can stop them putting that text on some other card or class card this time.

Then the 2/3 deathrattle taunt was brought up, he said the slime had taunt originally but they didn't know how strong/popular N'Zoth decks are going to be and even a weak card like that sees play. I'm not sure if I remember this part about future design correctly or not but he wasn't against something like that in future. It's hard to look up chat logs on the vod.
Click to expand...

Justicar replacement? Yucky ;( bad news for me
 
P

patchday

Member
Tempo Storm meta snapshot


Pretty discouraging some of my two favorite builds: Control Shaman & Malygos Rogue are Tier 3. I wish Rogue got more help with the adventure. Control Shaman- things can go so wrong when aggro face deck gets pummeling your face in while you search for your AoE and Heal cards.

The only reason I think I do favorably with tier 3 decks is cause I wait til mid month before running them.

Another biter- I just got Edwin Clef & Malygos recently. So was like 'hell ya I can finally play my Rogue' but it is discouraging to never see it used in pro play. It's like wth the Adventure released and Rogue apparently got even worse somehow
 
C

CountBlack

Member
Tried to buy the Welcome bundle on Thursday.. was stuck at the waiting for authorization screen for a really long time. purchase failed the next day, was still charged. Had to buy it again and the purchase went through then I was billed again -_-
 
Z

ZeroX03

Banned
Lost to a Barnes Y'Shaarj then a Barnes Highmane. It's bad luck times for me on Hearthstone.

My best pull ever is still a Barnes Grandmother I think.
 
D

Drkirby

Corporate Apologist
wiibomb said:
alright got all the gold I could collect these past 5 days of brawl.
Click to expand...

Wow, how the hell does someone play that Brawl 100+ times. I guess games are quick, but still.

Dahbomb said:
Krush doesn't get played like 70% of Hunter cards because it's a poorly designed class and that results in it being very narrow in its scope.

Like if Krush did 10 damage instead of 8 and had 4 less HP then Hunters would start playing it.

People should go back in history and check out the cards that Hunters have gotten.


They actually tried to make top deck Hunter a thing:

22453.png


14444-core-rager.png


plus Quickshot.


Like... wow. And this was back when Hunter was actually crazy at aggro... good thing they stopped making cards like this for Hunter (or at least not good ones like Quick Shot).
Click to expand...

Oh yeah, I remember that. If they printed a few more cards like that, it could have been a real archetype, and it would have been rage inducing.
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
Karsticles said:
I'm sure someone came up with that, but "meta" as a prefix is really old and just means "above". The metagame refers to players who are making decisions about the game based on knowledge outside of the match they are currently playing. For example, even though you don't "know" your opponent's deck, if you see Alex's Champion played on turn 2, your meta knowledge ascertains that this is likely a Dragon Warrior deck, and you adjust accordingly. Knowledge of deck frequency also leads you to do things like tech in cards to counter what decks you have been seeing frequently. This is all part of the metagame, though in video games it has come to mean something like "the state of the game".
Click to expand...
That's what I always thought it was, ie. "Game outside/inside the game".

Also stuff like bluffing and playing in ways that tilt opponent that aren't part of the game. Like playing your top deck card for lethal instead of another card in your hand because the tilt factor is higher.


miladesn said:
Thijs thinks yogg will get nerfed before Blizzcon.
Click to expand...
Yogg being nerfed without a touch on Shaman is going to result in an unmitigated disaster.

Well not really... everyone will just gentlemanly agree to ban out Shaman at Blizzcon anyway.
 
L

Levi

Banned
Dahbomb said:
Also stuff like bluffing and playing in ways that tilt opponent that aren't part of the game. Like playing your top deck card for lethal instead of another card in your hand because the tilt factor is higher.
Click to expand...

I always thought playing the topdecked card was correct, because of the possibility of tilting your opponent, but pro players say you should play the card that has been in your hand the longest, because that's the card your opponent has the most information on.

If you've held a card for a long time, your opponent can use the context of the game to figure out what type of card it is, whereas the top decked card your opponent can't make any read on.

I don't think it really matters at rank 15 or whatever, but it's interesting to think about.
 
W

wiibomb

Member
Drkirby said:
Wow, how the hell does someone play that Brawl 100+ times. I guess games are quick, but still.
Click to expand...

it is really quick, seriously this is the only time I could ever make that, before this I could only make at max 30 win brawls.

a combination of a good winrate deck with a very fast paced brawl made me win those 30 wins in about 2 hours
 
F

fertygo

Member
butts said:
Midrange shaman feels more spectacularly broken than secret paladin ever felt. Literally every turn is a broken card.
Click to expand...

I won against one at midnight, felt like miracle.. pretty sure I was like 1-6 against that deck at last 2 day

pretty busted
 
Z

ZeroX03

Banned
Guys please, it's really easy to beat Shaman. All you have to do is Barnes out a ten drop. Even Priest can easily beat it, all you have to do is copy and play their Doomhammer Rockbiter combo before they actually draw it.
Happened to me twice. The only way Priest can ever win is by getting my best cards before I do.
 
F

FeD.nL

Member
butts said:
Midrange shaman feels more spectacularly broken than secret paladin ever felt. Literally every turn is a broken card.
Click to expand...

Well it is. At least when you look at the options other classes had during Secret pally's reign. Naxx and GvG gave every class access to a ton of broken neutrals whereas standard has provided certain classes with broken cards (namely shaman) while kicking the broken naxx/gvg neutrals to wild.
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
butts said:
Midrange shaman feels more spectacularly broken than secret paladin ever felt. Literally every turn is a broken card.
Click to expand...
Nah man nothing beats that:

Turn 2 Minibot - Better than Totem Golem.
Turn 3 Muster for Battle - Better than Tuskar Totemic on average.
Turn 4 Shreddrer - Best 4 drop in the game, better than 477.
Turn 5 Loatheb/Belcher - Best 5 drop in the game, everyone runs that in Wild even Token/Malygos Druid to protect their boards.
Turn 6 The "God" - Best 6 drop in the history of Hearthstone, enough said.
Turn 7 Dr Balanced - Best 7 drop in the history of Hearthstone.
Turn 8 Tirion - Best 8 drop in the game.
Turn 10 Nzoth - Resurrect your BS minions and Tirion.

Secret Paladin is still the god of god curves.


I do see the point that Midrange Shaman feels more powerful because other classes don't have much to counter. In Secret Paladin's reign you still have an over powered Zoo deck, Grim Patron Warrior, a better Freeze Mage, a better Priest etc.


I always thought playing the topdecked card was correct, because of the possibility of tilting your opponent, but pro players say you should play the card that has been in your hand the longest, because that's the card your opponent has the most information on.

If you've held a card for a long time, your opponent can use the context of the game to figure out what type of card it is, whereas the top decked card your opponent can't make any read on.

I don't think it really matters at rank 15 or whatever, but it's interesting to think about.
Click to expand...
That makes sense from a tournament perspective but on Ladder it's always great to tilt someone.

"GOD DAMN HE GOT SO LUCKY WITH THAT TOP DICK FIREBALL!!!" I can feel the salt from across the Internet.
 
Y

Yaboosh

Super Sleuth
Dahbomb said:
Nah man nothing beats that:

Turn 2 Minibot - Better than Totem Golem.
Turn 3 Muster for Battle - Better than Tuskar Totemic on average.
Turn 4 Shreddrer - Best 4 drop in the game, better than 477.
Turn 5 Loatheb/Belcher - Best 5 drop in the game, everyone runs that in Wild even Token/Malygos Druid to protect their boards.
Turn 6 The "God" - Best 6 drop in the history of Hearthstone, enough said.
Turn 7 Dr Balanced - Best 7 drop in the history of Hearthstone.
Turn 8 Tirion - Best 8 drop in the game.
Turn 10 Nzoth - Resurrect your BS minions and Tirion.



Secret Paladin is still the god of god curves.
Click to expand...


That's a much harder curve to hit than the midrange Shaman curve though.
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
Yaboosh said:
That's a much harder curve to hit than the midrange Shaman curve though.
Click to expand...
Factoring in overload it's a lot easier for Secret Paladin. Plus they have other very strong drops as well like Truesilver/Uldaman, Steward, Haunted Creeper, Belcher etc.

Midrange Shaman can occasionally cheat with Thing from Below though.
 
L

Levi

Banned
Maybe two of you guys should do a Bo5, Standard midrange Shaman vs. Wild Secret N'zoth Paladin, and report back which one is more broken.
 
Y

Yaboosh

Super Sleuth
Levi said:
Maybe two of you guys should do a Bo5, Standard midrange Shaman vs. Wild Secret N'zoth Paladin, and report back which one is more broken.
Click to expand...


I think it needs to be discussed in context. Secret paladin is mostly a wild deck using wild cards going up against wild decks. Midrange shaman is mostly a Standard deck using standard cards going up against standard decks.

From what I have read and experienced, secret paladin has actual counters in wild. Midrange Shaman currently doesn't.
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
Levi said:
Maybe two of you guys should do a Bo5, Standard midrange Shaman vs. Wild Secret N'zoth Paladin, and report back which one is more broken.
Click to expand...
I think if Standard Midrange Shaman is even within 70-80% power level of Wild Secret Paladin then it's more broken.

And Secret Paladin in Wild has more bad match ups than Midrange Shaman.

In their respective formats... Midrange Shaman is actually better. But I am talking about straight comparison, not relative comparison.
 
Q

QFNS

Unconfirmed Member
Yaboosh said:
From what I have read and experienced, secret paladin has actual counters in wild. Midrange Shaman currently doesn't.
Click to expand...

This is the real point right here. You can tech against Secret Paladin in Wild with either Eater of Secrets, Kezan Mystic, or (if you're a hunter) Flare. And those are usually effective if you draw them. In general secret tech is pretty good in Wild, Hunters, Mages and Paladins all run them with some frequency and the counters are varying degrees of crippling to those decks. There are decisions to be made about the metagame here. How many secret decks will I face? Is it worth playing 2x of these Secret counters? What other decks can I beat without removing the cards this deck needs to win? etc. Then you can counter the people countering the secrets by not running the secrets and making their cards dead, and so on. The counter circle actually works. Also hey, Healbot is a good card sometimes you guys.

In Standard, "Midrange" Shaman is just the best deck. There isn't a counterplay to be found becuase that deck doesn't have decisions to make most of the time. It just plays as close to the curve as it can and wins because its minions are better. There is no "metagame" here. There are simply the best decks and then other decks that aren't as good but maybe are more skillful or fun or whatever. Because this is Hearthstone you can obviously still do well on ladder with almost anything, but if you just want to win: the game is solved at the moment.
 
L

Levi

Banned
Dahbomb said:
I think if Standard Midrange Shaman is even within 70-80% power level of Wild Secret Paladin then it's more broken.

And Secret Paladin in Wild has more bad match ups than Midrange Shaman.

In their respective formats... Midrange Shaman is actually better. But I am talking about straight comparison, not relative comparison.
Click to expand...

Too bad VSS wasn't around during secret paladin's heyday, then we would have some match up data and win rate data to more directly compare their performance during their reign as best deck in the meta.

I was playing combo druid and fatigue warrior in those days, and I don't remember particularly hating that match up.
 
T

thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
Seems like bolster warrior is much better now than it was at protect the king release with how much more aggro the meta has gotten. Dragon Warrior might still be strictly better because it can handle aggro and control, but if you wanna play something different, it's not a bad choice right now.
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
I wish there was a 2/3 Taunt in the neutral selection. I would actually play it in Bolster Warrior. Sparring Partner and Pompous Thespian are not what you want.
 
L

Levi

Banned
Dahbomb said:
I wish there was a 2/3 Taunt in the neutral selection. I would actually play it in Bolster Warrior. Sparring Partner and Pompous Thespian are not what you want.
Click to expand...

Yeah, a Taunt should have defensive stats, not offensive ones. It's a defensive card.

Bloodhoof and Fierce Monkey have good stats for their mana cost, Thespian does not.
 
A

Asbel

Member
patchday said:
Yeah Frodan's bogchamp is basically what I run. I usually use Ancestral spirit on Cairne or Earth Elementals. And I dupe them with Faceless. If opponent plays sylvannas. I dupe her with Faceless and then hex.

I have Ragnaros in there for cleanup. Sometimes I'll dupe him too as a finisher.

I only had time to play 3 ranked matches this month (w/Control Shaman) but went 2/3 so far. Granted, a lot of the face decks are not around as much right now. 2 of my matchups were against Warrior.

Control shaman my most fun deck but certain matchups (Warrior / Priest) are not too fun to deal with thus I dont play it too often on ladder
Click to expand...
Yeah, I'm wondering how Frodan's version stacks up against N'zoth Shaman. Could be a wash. It's fun when you give their legendary Ancestral Spirit, dupe it, then hex their version.
 
Q

QFNS

Unconfirmed Member
Levi said:
Yeah, a Taunt should have defensive stats, not offensive ones. It's a defensive card.

Bloodhoof and Fierce Monkey have good stats for their mana cost, Thespian does not.
Click to expand...

A 2/3 taunt neutral would see lots of play I think in control oriented decks. Hell a 3/5 taunt for 5 that spawns a 1/2 taunt is basically ubiquitous in Wild, so scaling that down to something more fair and 2 mana, a 2/3 taunt seems like a really obvious print.
 
M

Mobius and pet octopus

Member
Asbel said:
Yeah, I'm wondering how Frodan's version stacks up against N'zoth Shaman. Could be a wash. It's fun when you give their legendary Ancestral Spirit, dupe it, then hex their version.
Click to expand...

Well you just hex their strongest deathrattles and n'zoth is significantly weaker. It's like getting double value off hex. And I think control shaman runs enough big threats that getting 2 hexed isn't a huge deal as long as they don't want the good buff spells which is in their control.
 
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