Judging by the timeframe, the list of cards already ruled out and the 'fun' comment, I bet it's something like Mimiron's Head.
¯\_(ツ
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- Thread starter ZealousD
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Judging by the timeframe, the list of cards already ruled out and the 'fun' comment, I bet it's something like Mimiron's Head.
¯\_(ツ
_/¯Strifecro ought be respected, at the very least, as an experimenter and a trendsetter. He's always trying new things out. Sometimes that punishes him because he brings janky lineups to tournaments but sometimes he gets something good and it really helps him stand out from the pack.
Lost 3 games in a row to Yogg (two Druids, one Control Warrior). All times close to rank 5 for the month.
That's enough for one day. The salt is just too high right now.
I think I am going to boycott watching the Blizzcon finals if they don't do something before that. Not interesting in supporting an event that supports usage of Yogg. I also feel Shaman is in its own category of BS that needs to be rectified because it's really god damn stupid.
That's enough for one day. The salt is just too high right now.
I think I am going to boycott watching the Blizzcon finals if they don't do something before that. Not interesting in supporting an event that supports usage of Yogg. I also feel Shaman is in its own category of BS that needs to be rectified because it's really god damn stupid.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Told ya guys that there is a solid chance that some changes will happen. COTW doesn't upset me like it seems to everyone else, at least not nearly as much. Because I don't mind strong cards. I could easily see them making it 9 or even 10 mana and I won't complain though. It is a bit much for 8 mana.
What I would really like to see is what dog suggested they do with rogue. He suggested they change blade flurry by making it 2 mana, and making the damage hit face. It was an incredibly suggestion that blew my mind, and I am sure all of chat collectively and I am sure all of your minds retroactively. He said this would take rogue out of being a tier 4 class lol.
What I would really like to see is what dog suggested they do with rogue. He suggested they change blade flurry by making it 2 mana, and making the damage hit face. It was an incredibly suggestion that blew my mind, and I am sure all of chat collectively and I am sure all of your minds retroactively. He said this would take rogue out of being a tier 4 class lol.
Damn 15 cards in the nerf list for Blizzard? LMAO! That's more than even I expected.
Seems like moving Yogg to Wild is the most logical sense. They don't care about Wild balance anyway or else they would've nerfed Mysterious Challenger, Dr Boom and Shredder a long time ago.
Seems like moving Yogg to Wild is the most logical sense. They don't care about Wild balance anyway or else they would've nerfed Mysterious Challenger, Dr Boom and Shredder a long time ago.
So Blizzard finally admitted that Shaman is a problem.
I would much rather prefer it if Blade Flurry only hit enemy minions not the face. I would like it if Rogues had a good board clear rather than yet another means to deal direct face damage. Unless I misread something here.
BananasWithGuns
Member
Nerfs twice a year would be nice I think. Once with the new set rotation and again before Blizzcon. Guess I'll be making sure not to dust anything that could be on their radar.
Also I hope they do not overreact with Shaman. Let's keep in mind where this class was a year ago. Hit Doomhammer, Trogg and Tuskarr at most, leave everything else.
Also I hope they do not overreact with Shaman. Let's keep in mind where this class was a year ago. Hit Doomhammer, Trogg and Tuskarr at most, leave everything else.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Doubt it'll end up anywhere close to 15.
I'd rather them send cards to wild only simply because wild should be the place where you can revisit old decks. It sucks that I cannot play oil rogue because of the blade flurry nerf.
He said it should hit face.
The IGN interview was good but Blizzard as always gave a lot of nothing answers and empty promises. So many times the word "perception" came up as if they were looking down on people talking about strong cards/meta. It's the new Blizzard key word since now we have our own stats so they can't just say stats anymore... it's about perception now.
Only Yogg actually qualifies to be moved to Wild IMO. Other cards that are strong are too core to the classes. You can move Tuskar Totemic though, it's going to move in a few months anyway.
Only Yogg actually qualifies to be moved to Wild IMO. Other cards that are strong are too core to the classes. You can move Tuskar Totemic though, it's going to move in a few months anyway.
Then that's a terrible suggestion. Though not at all surprised when there is bias at play.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Perception is just as important as stats for the majority of the playerbase. People don't actually care if one card or another is OP imo. They perceive it that way and that is what drives them. Stats? Hah. People don't care about it. X card is OP regardless of stats, to some people.
And frankly, sometimes perception is more important than stats. Yogg saron for example.
There will always be perception until Blizzard puts out hard stats for everyone to see... which they will never do so they will just feed the perception.
Though the guys at Heartharena have made it so that perception is almost out of the equation. It's so fine tuned in terms of stats and data that Blizzard can't deflect the issues. Mage being the best in Arena isn't a matter of perception anymore. Firelands being an insane common card isn't a matter of perception anymore.
Like if you make a post on Reddit and talk about how you perceive Mage to not be strong in Arena then you will get laughed out of the forum.
Though I definitely DO NOT want Blizzard to release hard stats on these things. Hard stats just lead to people settling on what is the best and that means less people will try to experiment or change up things.
Though the guys at Heartharena have made it so that perception is almost out of the equation. It's so fine tuned in terms of stats and data that Blizzard can't deflect the issues. Mage being the best in Arena isn't a matter of perception anymore. Firelands being an insane common card isn't a matter of perception anymore.
Like if you make a post on Reddit and talk about how you perceive Mage to not be strong in Arena then you will get laughed out of the forum.
Though I definitely DO NOT want Blizzard to release hard stats on these things. Hard stats just lead to people settling on what is the best and that means less people will try to experiment or change up things.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Even if they put stats out showing certain cards are in fact balanced. People won't accept it. They just literally will not accept it. What if they showed hunter had a very acceptable middle of the road winrate? It literally would not matter to I think a lot of people, COTW is OP to them, they've done the "math", they've decided the card is too good and has to go.
What if tirion has higher stats than COTW? Doesn't matter. COTW is OP, tirion is not, COTW gots to go. People don't care about stats imo. Only when the stats support what they believe, which I should point out isn't caring about the stats and is just using them to justify what they already believe is true.
BlackBuzzard
Banned
All talk lets see some action im done with talk and mostly Brode's empty words for months now.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Usually it's "we don't have plans" then a week later "undertaker is being nerfed"; "we're nuking grim patron from orbit".
The problem with Call of the Wild is that it's too important for the deck to get a win, you don't draw it you're unlikely to win. So I think that's a problem and seemingly they think similarly too. So the card is obviously OP and have a class be reliant on one OP card to win is not a good design. If you give them more stronger tools it can become problematic. It's pretty much what happened with shaman. Doomhammer is OP and ends games, now they got a whole bunch of other strong cards, it made doomhammer really busted. It's something to consider for future design space.
If the 15 cards they are talking about right now include Old Gods/LoE/TGT cards then this is probably the list of 15 cards:
Yogg Sauran
Call of the Wild
Doomhammer/Rockbiter
Tuskar Totemic
Tunnel Trogg
477
War Axe (Blizzard is always talking about this card)
Highmane (seems like Blizzard thinks this card is insanely strong too)
Thing from Below
Preparation/Innervate (these cards are always talked about at Blizzard)
Azure Drake (no support for this but I can tell you that statistically this is probably the most played card in HS right now so Blizzard is probably talking about it in some capacity)
Barnes (probably not talked about too much as it's a new card and not explored as much but it hit the Firebat ban list so it's probably on the talking table regardless)
Hunter could be the worst class in the game and Call of the Wild would still be a strong card. Just because a class is weak now doesn't mean they don't have some potentially strong cards. Tuskar Totemic was in Shaman's arsenal in TGT but only now we are seeing its true potential. Call of the Wild might be insane down the line because the card is quite obviously very powerful.
Card strength is different from class strength. Blizzard has nerfed cards regardless of class strength in the past.
Just because some people don't care about stats doesn't mean everyone doesn't. I care about stats, top players care about stats and I am sure a few people here and on GAF care about stats too.
Yogg Sauran
Call of the Wild
Doomhammer/Rockbiter
Tuskar Totemic
Tunnel Trogg
477
War Axe (Blizzard is always talking about this card)
Highmane (seems like Blizzard thinks this card is insanely strong too)
Thing from Below
Preparation/Innervate (these cards are always talked about at Blizzard)
Azure Drake (no support for this but I can tell you that statistically this is probably the most played card in HS right now so Blizzard is probably talking about it in some capacity)
Barnes (probably not talked about too much as it's a new card and not explored as much but it hit the Firebat ban list so it's probably on the talking table regardless)
Hunter is already a tier 2 deck and by tournament standards it is in fact a middle of the road winrate class.
Hunter could be the worst class in the game and Call of the Wild would still be a strong card. Just because a class is weak now doesn't mean they don't have some potentially strong cards. Tuskar Totemic was in Shaman's arsenal in TGT but only now we are seeing its true potential. Call of the Wild might be insane down the line because the card is quite obviously very powerful.
Card strength is different from class strength. Blizzard has nerfed cards regardless of class strength in the past.
Tirion is a Legendary though. If COTW is being talked about in the same power level as Tirion then something is terribly wrong. If Paladins could play two Tirions in their deck then you know there would be more complaints. And Tirion is obviously a very powerful card but that's old ass news, same with Highmane.
Just because some people don't care about stats doesn't mean everyone doesn't. I care about stats, top players care about stats and I am sure a few people here and on GAF care about stats too.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Like I said, most people don't care about stats. COTW is OP to you, even if the stats don't back it up. And one of the statistically strongest if not the strongest cards doesn't even broach your list of cards you think they may nerf. Because stats don't matter to you, and that's okay.
edit:
Okay, maybe saying stats don't matter to you is not entirely fair.
edit:
Okay, maybe saying stats don't matter to you is not entirely fair.
Agreed. We have plenty of classes that play curve decks as a norm. I'm not opposed to a curve archetype for rogue and priest, but I'd rather they prioritize something more appealing to their class identity first and then work on adding more, perhaps normal, archetypes to them afterwards.
Stats do matter to me and I can tell you right now that if stats were put out that Call of the Wild would be shown to win games around the same level as Tirion. When Blizzard talked about Tirion they said that it has better stats than War Axe, nothing was said about Call of the Wild in comparison to Tirion. Hell statistically they state that CotW is "very very strong". I have never seen Blizzard say something like that about a card when talking about statistics.
And again I will stress.. we are talking about a LEGENDARY vs an EPIC card that you can put two of in your deck. That's a big difference right there. There's more leeway for a Legendary to be strong in the game unless some insane RNG mechanics are involved (like Boom, Barnes and Yogg). I can tell your right now that there would be less complaints about Mysterious Challenger if it was a Legendary. Hell there would be less complaints about CotW if it was a Legendary.
I do think that Tirion is very strong but I don't think they will nerf the card mostly because Tirion is really impactful in slower Paladin decks and the LAST thing they want to do right now is nerf cards that help slower decks. That would be a PR nightmare for them. CotW on the other hand is played in every single Hunter deck on the planet because it's "too good not to".
This is now getting into the territory of "should" vs "would". There are a lot of cards they should probably nerf but they would not do it.
Heartharena and Lightforce's assessment of the card is flawed. Equating winrates to whether or not Firelands Portal has been drafted doesn't really show the full picture. I'm not saying it's not a good card (it is), but they could do a better job proving it. They have the data to back up their claim - they just need to extract it properly.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
I'll admit that (as I had edited late into the last post) it isn't entirely fair to say that stats don't matter to you. But I just wanna point out that you saying it's a problem if COTW is around the same level as tirion, is you just using the stats to justify what you already believe. And sure, legendary cards can be stronger than epic cards, but there is nothing that says epic cards can't be stronger than legendary cards.
I don't think Tirion should be nerfed regardless of what the stats of the specific card says. But it's equally eligible to be nerfed under your argument that it could be OP in the future, as a card like COTW. Paladin is far from needing a nerf imo. I'm not sure hunter needs a nerf either, but I don't have access to the stats. COTW would be the obvious go to if that proved true.
Edit:
And as I said about perception, maybe COTW gets nerfed because the midrange playstyle of playing stuff and making almost no decisions an entire match is determined to be worth changing. And changing it requires COTW to become called to the wild to make that happen.
I will say that 477 is probably a card that is strongly perceived but may not be as strong statistically.
Like I do think the card is very strong but not meme worthy strong. It won't get nerfed, I just put it on the list as cards that are probably being internally discussed.
I think Thing from Below is much stronger than 477 for example. And very few people even talk about it. Some people do and even it is reaching meme worthy status with stuff like "2 man 5/5". I think it's another one of those cards that will get weaker after the rotation with stuff like Golem and Tuskar gone.
Overall Shaman is in a very weird spot where they are absurdly strong in a very short amount of time but are threatened to be very weak again after a rotation. The word "short" here may seem strange but in the grand scheme of things, Shaman's reign is actually not that long. Though I think the problems with the class are deeply embedded in its design and the power cards are there to compensate for it.
Like I do think the card is very strong but not meme worthy strong. It won't get nerfed, I just put it on the list as cards that are probably being internally discussed.
I think Thing from Below is much stronger than 477 for example. And very few people even talk about it. Some people do and even it is reaching meme worthy status with stuff like "2 man 5/5". I think it's another one of those cards that will get weaker after the rotation with stuff like Golem and Tuskar gone.
Overall Shaman is in a very weird spot where they are absurdly strong in a very short amount of time but are threatened to be very weak again after a rotation. The word "short" here may seem strange but in the grand scheme of things, Shaman's reign is actually not that long. Though I think the problems with the class are deeply embedded in its design and the power cards are there to compensate for it.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
I agree. But I also think they might print more strong totems so the loss of 2 totems might not be enough.
Tuskar will leave with the next rotation, he was a TGT card. Unless you are worried about his strength in Wild.
I feel the a way to balance him outside of just nerfing him would be to introduce battle cry based totems, 0/1's or 1/1 that instead do something when played. Or they could also do stuff that can be build around, but isn't very good to get randomly. Like a 0/2 totem that gives all Murlocs +1/+1.
They could also introduce a 0 mana 0/1 Tiny Totem. It doesn't do anything else, its just a 0 mana totem.
I've been adding Ironbeak Owl into a few decks including a Beast Hunter and a Curator Paladin and it seems to be performing very well. I certainly wouldn't put into every deck, but as long as you have the beast/curator synergy, then it works really well. Spellbreaker would be the best choice outside of this.
Lot's of people play without fear of silence and it comes in really handy. I think the 3 mana cost is slightly awkward, but typically it is used to silence a taunt for lethal. I've also had a few situations where silencing a kindly grandmother or other annoying 2 drop has been game winning.
With Curator it helps guarantee a valuable late game silence is in hand when needed.
Lot's of people play without fear of silence and it comes in really handy. I think the 3 mana cost is slightly awkward, but typically it is used to silence a taunt for lethal. I've also had a few situations where silencing a kindly grandmother or other annoying 2 drop has been game winning.
With Curator it helps guarantee a valuable late game silence is in hand when needed.
What's this about? He has talked with them?
funny how this game ended, https://hsreplay.net/replay/EzZrNzZRyG7eWfYKraCciZ
hunter on turn 6, he uses coin and then plays Highmane. I'm like ??? and he concedes right after.
my guess is that he had CotW and wanted to coin that but he didn't realize it was turn 6 and not 7, lol.
main issue is the class having what's arguably the best 1, 2 and 3 drop of the game. then I guess a 4 mana 7/7 and a 0 mana 5/5 taunt. even though the 4 mana 7/7 isn't played a lot or at all anymore, it's very slow and easily punished nowadays. I hope they nerf some cards so I get dust but they probably won't, they'll just wait for TGT to rotate out and be happy with it. also yeah, if they nerf too much the class might go back to the trash never-played current Priest tier.
hunter on turn 6, he uses coin and then plays Highmane. I'm like ??? and he concedes right after.
my guess is that he had CotW and wanted to coin that but he didn't realize it was turn 6 and not 7, lol.
Doomhammer doesn't need a nerf, it's not even the only shaman card to provide a great Rockbiter combo, and since it's 2 or 3 cards combo it's not something you pull off every game, not even every 5 games. as a stand-alone weapon it's good in aggro but that's about it.
main issue is the class having what's arguably the best 1, 2 and 3 drop of the game. then I guess a 4 mana 7/7 and a 0 mana 5/5 taunt. even though the 4 mana 7/7 isn't played a lot or at all anymore, it's very slow and easily punished nowadays. I hope they nerf some cards so I get dust but they probably won't, they'll just wait for TGT to rotate out and be happy with it. also yeah, if they nerf too much the class might go back to the trash never-played current Priest tier.
mdonais actually came on reddit and said more things.
so yeah, I give it two weeks tops. shaman is rip soon, probably even CotW and I'm guessing they've not figured out what do to with yogg right now exactly to make everyone happy which I can understand. Iksar posted in another topic that they've talked with all of the HCT finalists too and took their concerns. So I think you can be sure something is going to happen. Warsong nerf was announced on October 15.
Donais specifically mentions Totemic as one card on reddit too. Doomhammer is guaranteed and if they change Thing from Below somewhat I think shaman comes back to earth but still remains the best class until rotation. Seems good if we get just that, I don't even care about Yogg. I think it's cool there are some comeback mechanics in the game but they probably should not work like Yogg does. The game lacks comebacks so much.
mdonais said:
so yeah, I give it two weeks tops. shaman is rip soon, probably even CotW and I'm guessing they've not figured out what do to with yogg right now exactly to make everyone happy which I can understand. Iksar posted in another topic that they've talked with all of the HCT finalists too and took their concerns. So I think you can be sure something is going to happen. Warsong nerf was announced on October 15.
Donais specifically mentions Totemic as one card on reddit too. Doomhammer is guaranteed and if they change Thing from Below somewhat I think shaman comes back to earth but still remains the best class until rotation. Seems good if we get just that, I don't even care about Yogg. I think it's cool there are some comeback mechanics in the game but they probably should not work like Yogg does. The game lacks comebacks so much.
Just add what they added to make wicked witchdoctor not stupid broken "summon basic totem"
The Wizard
Member
Trying to think of a mechanic that allows for strong cards that reward non-aggro play. How about "If you've dealt x amount of damage to minions this game trigger y benefit e.g taunt, heal, clear etc." Would that work? Anything similar in other card games?
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
Leave War Axe alone I can't dust it
I look forward to the changes before Blizzcon, but I am disappointed that they probably won't be in place for Last Call.
Last Call is stacked with extremely talented players, it's a shame that they have to fight it out in this Yoggy meta.
They are right. Interviewer asked good questions and only got the "we got in our radars" pr answer. Where are the new features? At least we should not wait for tournament mode.
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
I don't get how the game doesn't have its own replays
they just don't care enough to implement features like that. same with OW, even though OW needs that feature way more than this game does.
B-god quality development
Yogg: needs to be nuked from orbit. The number one problem currently in the game and probably in the top 5 worst ever.
Call of the Wild; I'd make it cost 9. King Krush costs 9 and is a worse card.
Doomhammer: Just make it so it can't combo with Rockbiter.
Tuskarr Totemic: Summons Basic Totems Only. (still good with TFB, Primal Fusion, but doesn't blow games out on turn 3)
Tunnel Trogg: Meh. Lots of midrange Shaman decks aren't even running it. If they adjust this, then they need to do the same to Mana Wyrm.
Flamewreathed: Meh.
War Axe: Unlikely to get adjusted, as it really hurts the only high-tier control deck in the game. Tempo Warrior/Dragon/Pirate Warrior are out of the meta anyway, so War Axe is being used honestly, to slow down the game, and not to snowball early tempo which was I believe the issue with it.
Highmane: Better than any Hunter legendary. Not sure I can be neutral on this one because Highmane and COTW are so punishing to Control Warrior, which is a deck I like to play sometimes.
Thing From Below: Sure? It's OP as heck but I don't think they are going to adjust every single good Shaman card. It's still funny to me looking at this and then looking at the Druid card Knight of the Wild.
Prep/Innervate: You'd have to rebalance a lot of Rogue and Druid if you touch these cards--which they probably should. Cheating mana is really strong. But with Yogg nerfed and Rogue bad, what's the incentive to deal with these cards now?
Azure Drake: Super unlikely. I'm fairly disillusioned with their current direction of making underwhelming neutral cards and very powerful class cards. Having good neutrals isn't a bad thing, and Drake isn't the auto-include BGH, Owl or Shredder was.
Barnes: Maybe because it constricts future design space, but I don't see them making a change to this card so early in its life when it's lost popularity in everything but midrange hunter.
Ok they don't care about it. What features are they implementing. We had to wait two years for a scroll bar.
I don't think they're gonna touch TGT cards since it won't be long until they rotate out and ''let all the unbalanced garbage stay in wild forever'' seems their major line of thinking. I don't think they will nerf any of the classic cards either.
my best bet, assuming they're actually going to nerf/change something, is CotW, Yogg, and maybe one shaman card before the rotation (Thing from Below), but they have to realize that nerfing Shaman cards now - especially classic ones - will throw Shaman back into the trash tier after TGT rotates out of standard.
my best bet, assuming they're actually going to nerf/change something, is CotW, Yogg, and maybe one shaman card before the rotation (Thing from Below), but they have to realize that nerfing Shaman cards now - especially classic ones - will throw Shaman back into the trash tier after TGT rotates out of standard.
? not sure what you're trying to say here.
Everyone asking for new modes and features needs to realize that this game is probably primarily played on mobile devices, and keeping the client simple is a priority for blizzard.
In game tournaments? People get mad when matchmaking takes more than 15 seconds, how do you think people are going to react when they have to sit in the client for 25 minutes waiting to see who they play next while a control warrior mirror resolves?
I would love new modes and features. But realistically I'm not expecting much to come from that direction.
My modest hope is some adjustments to ranked ladder (longer seasons, legend players don't go down to 15) and maybe some QOL client improvements.
In game tournaments? People get mad when matchmaking takes more than 15 seconds, how do you think people are going to react when they have to sit in the client for 25 minutes waiting to see who they play next while a control warrior mirror resolves?
I would love new modes and features. But realistically I'm not expecting much to come from that direction.
My modest hope is some adjustments to ranked ladder (longer seasons, legend players don't go down to 15) and maybe some QOL client improvements.
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