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Nirolak said:
Oh, sorry, I've been out of the physical version for a while and misunderstood that.

That said, every six months with rotations would still be twice the update rate.

It would also seem to make more sense in that you don't have one big set rotating out after 8 less months than the other like Hearthstone is currently set up (assuming the Fall set ships in 2016).
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to reiterate the standard format is the last 3 blocks (big set + small set) combined and whenever a new block releases the oldest block rotates out. So you're usually only losing ~180 cards and each big set is in rotation for 18 months.

The Hearthstone rotation is pretty weird going by calendar year and means a rather insane loss of cards at once.
 
Familienoberhauptvogel said:
to reiterate the standard format is the last 3 blocks (big set + small set) combined and whenever a new block releases the oldest block rotates out. So you're usually only losing ~180 cards and each big set is in rotation for 18 months.

The Hearthstone rotation is pretty weird going by calendar year and means a rather insane loss of cards at once.
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It's not really going by calendar year, it's going by the first set release of the calendar year. The standard set will never be smaller than it is now, it'll only be bigger than it is right now.
 
Familienoberhauptvogel said:
I'm aware when rotation but that the sets rotating are determined by calendar year is the odd part, LoE rotating out despite releasing in december.
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Agreed! I bought LoE last month thinking "Oh, I have until December 2017". Noooope.

Dahbomb, I agree with you about Blizzard's response time. It's as if they enjoy watching the flames before pulling the firetruck over to the Reddit barnburners.
 
Lol. Johnnystone (who plays mostly wild) had his yogg duplicated against hunter, he was down to 1hp after his first Yogg gave him a third ice block, played another Yogg, got Tree of Life. Hah.
 
Familienoberhauptvogel said:
Just had a Yogg burn 13 damage straight to my face...
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I got two-turn killed by Yogg when I had over 60HP and the game was heading to fatigue.

That's the day I went from "LOL Yogg" to "Yogg is destroying this game and must be addressed". Since then I've had hail mary Yoggs that were played against me cost me 4 games and win me one. (Mage at 10health played Yogg, first spell was Pyro and it hit them in the face. DOES NOT make up for the other 4 games tho.)

I also stopped playing in the mornings and during my lunch breaks. Now I only play in the evening until my quests are done, and I don't play more than I need to to accomplish that. Very sad, because I used to play a LOT more and I used to try very hard to climb ranks and now I can't be bothered to play Shaman for a couple hours to even hit 10.
 
I was playing as Control Warrior vs a Rogue, he got Anub from Journey Below which is usually enough to blow warrior out of the game, so I yogged and he hexxed it immediately.

Another well earned win.
 
Papercuts said:
I was playing as Control Warrior vs a Rogue, he got Anub from Journey Below which is usually enough to blow warrior out of the game, so I yogged and he hexxed it immediately.

Another well earned win.
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Reminds me of my last game against c'thun warrior where I played like 6 Anubaraks, cleared a 12/12 c'thun and a 14/14 one and dealt at least 60 damage only for him to Golden monkey with 3 cards in hand -> xaril. I'm on 11 and he has a 6 attack gorehowl so I feel somewhat safe aside from leeroy or something like that, set up lethal next turn with my two anub's and a third minion. His turn: Eydis darkbane, toxin that returns it to hand -> hits the 1/4 3 damage to me, swings gorehowl and finishes off with the 2 damage toxin. Somewhat unlucky.
I should start saving replays because shit like this is hard to explain.
 
Im so fucking done lost another game to fucking Yogg yolo nerf it and fuck this entire fucking shit card had the fucking druid on the ropes pretty much the entire game oh look here is Yogg GG.
 
Papercuts said:
I was playing as Control Warrior vs a Rogue, he got Anub from Journey Below which is usually enough to blow warrior out of the game, so I yogged and he hexxed it immediately.

Another well earned win.
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Could have been hex, polymorph, mind control, entomb, silence, earth shock, mass dispel... it's not that insane that yogg provided an answer.

Anyway, keeping sylvanas shield slam can beat that anub strategy pretty hard btw.
 
Levi said:
I got two-turn killed by Yogg when I had over 60HP and the game was heading to fatigue.

That's the day I went from "LOL Yogg" to "Yogg is destroying this game and must be addressed". Since then I've had hail mary Yoggs that were played against me cost me 4 games and win me one. (Mage at 10health played Yogg, first spell was Pyro and it hit them in the face. DOES NOT make up for the other 4 games tho.)

I also stopped playing in the mornings and during my lunch breaks. Now I only play in the evening until my quests are done, and I don't play more than I need to to accomplish that. Very sad, because I used to play a LOT more and I used to try very hard to climb ranks and now I can't be bothered to play Shaman for a couple hours to even hit 10.
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that wasn't even the most ridiculous part. I was probably already close to dead after his Gadgetzan turn but the Yogg crushed any hopes I had of him missing damage and even if he was the yogg hurt itself and then cast blood warriors putting another copy of it into his hand.
 
Mobius and pet octopus said:
Could have been hex, polymorph, mind control, entomb, silence, earth shock, mass dispel... it's not that insane that yogg provided an answer.

Anyway, keeping sylvanas shield slam can beat that anub strategy pretty hard btw.
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The yogg list I had doesn't use sylvannas actually. And while it didn't need to 100% be hex I would still say any scenario where the minion gets transformed or silenced before dying was pretty lucky for me.
 
What Kibler failed to factor is that Yogg has WAY more variance than Deathwing. Deathwing won't fill their board, their hand, heal them, damage me, and play 3 secrets along with clearing my board like Yogg often does against me. The times when it wins the game can be impossible to plan against. Deathwing might clear the board, but it is easy to counter and/or play around.
 
Got 5 yesterday, so I went ahead and started fooling around with Thief Rouge again. Deck is damn fun to play and pilot. I had one game where I burgled into Renounce Darkness, played it, changed my 4 warlock cards into Warrior Cards + Hero Power. Proceeded to win the game on the back of Blood to Ichor into Bash into Sparing partner, followed by Malk into Stormforged axe.

Warrior hero power really did work too, kept me alive against zoo when all would have probably been lost otherwise.
 
Mulgrok said:
What Kibler failed to factor is that Yogg has WAY more variance than Deathwing. Deathwing won't fill their board, their hand, heal them, damage me, and play 3 secrets along with clearing my board like Yogg often does against me. The times when it wins the game can be impossible to plan against. Deathwing might clear the board, but it is easy to counter and/or play around.
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Deathwing was brought up as a point of comparison.

If we say Deathwing is a balanced card (usable but obviously not over powered) then that's probably the power level we expect from a 10 mana card.

Deathwing clears the board and discards your entire hand, puts a 12/12 on board.

If Yogg clears the board and puts some stats on the board... then it's automatically better than Deathwing because it didn't discard your hand.

An "average" Yogg in the late game clears most of the board, draws some cards and sets up some secrets. Usually you don't have a board yourself but sometimes you do. On "average" Yogg is better than Deathwring in a spell heavy deck... I think most people including pro players would agree on this.

Now the question is about how much better is Yogg than Deathwing on average which was the point that Kibler was making. Even if its a bit better than Deathwing then that's fine because there is variance to screw you over and there are some deck building considerations. But if it's a lot better then we may have a problem.

Kibler was saying that on average Yogg isn't A TON better than Deathwing and if we look at the stats then we would see that for a 10 mana card Yogg isn't absurdly broken. Of course we don't have stats of Yogg vs other 10 drop cards so it's difficult to gauge. Only Blizzard has access to those stats.
 
I don't live at times of Huntertaker, I can't tell you about Warsong Commander. But at least I knew the tales of Yogg Saron.

Feelsgoodman
 
Dahbomb said:
Nah it's "perception". Blizzard started it, Kibler continued it... now all we need are some dank memes around it.
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Nope, the real new dank meme is "Radar". Because everything people are complaining about? It's on Blizzard's "Radar".

"Some people think Yogg is destroying the competitive integrity of your game." "Yogg is a card that is on our radar."

"Shaman is pretty OP right now." "Shaman is on our radar."

"Arena balance still needs help!" "The arena is on our radar."

Etc, ad infinitum.

EDIT:

Can't forget "Tricky." They want to give Priest and Rogue "Tricky" cards. What does that mean? WHO KNOWS! IT SOUNDS COOL THOUGH!
 
Omg I think I've reached my peak I'll never win a game in a better way.

In wild against Shaman already healed for a ton (opp doomhammer + rockbiter x2)and whittled down his resources while putting pressure on his life total.
On the last turn I'm at 6 health against 2nd doomhammer 477 with an Ivory Knight and Noble Sacrifice in hand a truesilver and a couple 1/1s in play.
Ivory Knight finds me only 1 mana cards and I'm considering the blessing to draw into something but then I see the eye for an eye.

Put my opponent to exactly 4 play noble sacrifice and eye for an eye and then watch with pure glee how my opponent runs straight to his death.

Now I can finally count on one hand how often eye for an eye was good
exactly once
 
Dahbomb said:
Nah it's "perception". Blizzard started it, Kibler continued it... now all we need are some dank memes around it.
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I'm pretty sure Perception is code for "This card statistically is shown to be balanced, but y'all keep on bitching about it. No, we aren't going to nerf it like we did Mind Control to make you guys happy."
 
Yeah radar is meme worthy too lol.

I'm pretty sure Perception is code for "This card statistically is shown to be balanced, but y'all keep on bitching about it. No, we aren't going to nerf it like we did Mind Control to make you guys happy."
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Without stats it's hearsay. It's a way to put the blame on the community rather than the cards or the game. It's an easy off any criticism with a blanket statement like "perception". If the stats don't line up with public perception then it's up to Blizzard to show them they are misled. It's like when people used to think going 2nd had an advantage for certain classes but it turned out to not be true.. that's a good example of stats swaying public perception.

Thankfully Blizzard is actually open to change up these problematic cards so now it's just a matter of when not if.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4XzCP8sQqU

Jaina: So what do you think about that Tuskarr Totemic at the bar?
Valeera: I dunno. Maybe?
Blizzard: Forget it. He's OP.
Valeera: What?! How can you tell?
Blizzard: I just know these things. I've got what they call "radar".
Valeera: There's no such thing...
Blizzard: Nooo? *pulls out statistical data* Okay, I've got a Lock n' Load on him.

*Beep*

Blizzard: Yep! He's OP.
Jaina: Are you sure?
Blizzard: Definitely. Unless I'm getting interference from an OP weather balloon.

*later on*

Jaina: This is Yogg-Saron. Yogg is a 10-mana 7/5 from the WOG set with a unique effect!
Yogg-Saron: Hello, beautiful.
Blizzard: *whispers* I think she means 10-mana on the OP circuit.
Yogg-Saron: Hehe, I wish! Those cats can really fly.

Jaina: This is 4-mana 7/7, an entity of pure flame.
Valeera: He's great, really, but he's just not what I'm looking for.
4/7/7: I understand. One day, I will Evolve beyond my physical mana limit. On that day, I hope you pick up the phone.
Jaina: Ugh, you're impossible!
Blizzard: *bee-ee-eep* Just as well.. I think he comes from a dimension that's big on SMOrcing.
 
It *is* a matter of perception.

Putting aside competitive play for a second, Kibler does make a number of positive points. I think in normal ladder play, Yogg is fine as he is. He's a 10-cost Legendary that is both extremely powerful and unpredictable. It's rare that he flat out wins (or costs) you the game, but those are the moments that stick out most in your memory.

The comparison made earlier in the this thread was Deathwing, and I think that's valid. Deathwing is also a 10-cost Legendary and his effect is extremely powerful. He can also flat out win you the game. His effect has zero variance--you always know what it's going to do. Yogg isn't about what he's going to do, but rather how he makes you feel.

Same with Priest. Their cards aren't overpowered. Entomb is not the greatest thing since Buffalo Wing-flavored Tabasco sauce. It's the feeling of having one of your cards stolen only to be used against you later. It's why Fear was nerfed for Warlocks back in The Burning Crusade. The effect is not OP, but it contributes to a negative experience and experience is what game design is all about.

The problem here being that one man's trash is another man's treasure; what is good / bad for me is not the same for you. There are plenty of Legendaries that can swing a game on their own.

I will add that reddit, gaf, and some streamers are also a vocal minority and the feeling is often contagious. It only takes one or two people to start complaining before other people rehash what is being said. Streamers feed the viewers who feed the streamers. Hating on everything is the new cool. Calling for resignations, saying Team Five doesn't know what's going on, or that BB is a joke, is just stupid, mindless circle-jerking.

Can Hearthstone be better? Of course it can. People love to complain though. Maybe Yogg should be banned in tournaments or tweaked in some way. Or maybe tournaments should branch out a bit.
 
KuroNeeko said:
I think in normal ladder play, Yogg is fine as he is. He's a 10-cost Legendary that is both extremely powerful and unpredictable.
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No, it's not. Having all my decisions in a fatigue game invalidated because Yogg can do 60 DAMAGE is far from okay. I don't enjoy wasting my time so I can lose to a literal coin flip.

When the Yogg top-end can do that it does NOT belong in any competitive environment, and ranked is meant to be competitive!

I don't care if Yogg only fucks me 60% of the time, that's not okay. Period.
 
How exactly are you losing to Yogg 60% of the time in a fatigue match if you have 60 health?

Shouldn't the opponent be decking themselves with Yogg the vast majority of the time?
 
Guy just found something new to blame

One of Screenshot that he posted, he as Control Warrior run out of card.. but yeah its totally because Yogg he lose.
 
Nirolak said:
How exactly are you losing to Yogg 60% of the time in a fatigue match if you have 60 health?

Shouldn't the opponent be decking themselves with Yogg the vast majority of the time?
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Those two statements are not that closely related. Once, I died from 60+ health going into fatigue turns because of a favorable Yogg. Thanks to Karazhan, card draw spells come up just that less often to make a different.

I would say that 60% of the time when a late-game Yogg is played, I lose as a direct result that play. Not every game will I have 60HP going into fatigue, though. Sometimes my opponent gets a "bad" Yogg and they lose, or sometimes I could have played better and won before the Yogg got played, but I'd say on average when I'm in a winning position and Yogg gets plopped down I lose more than half the time.

Here's an "average" Yogg that I decided to screenshot because this was a game where I managed to stabilize after taking two Cabalist's Tome generated Pyroblasts to the face and most of their minion threats had been played.

l3llS6i.jpg


Notice that they got 6 cards put in their hand with only one coming from their deck, and 5 additional minions on the board (6 if you count cat trick).

That gave the Mage a ton of gas and I ended up running out of threats and since on EU I'm still 40 gold away from unlocking Elise I had to concede.

Did the mage win on the spot? No. Does that make Yogg okay? No.

Did getting a Weapon and a 7 drop from Burgle and 3 extra removal spells / burn from Tome for free from Yogg end up winning them the game? I think so. I would have won against Deathwing. I lose to Yogg.

fertygo said:
Guy just found something new to blame

One of Screenshot that he posted, he as Control Warrior run out of card.. but yeah its totally because Yogg he lose.
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Running out of cards is one of my win conditions. Generally, they use their whole deck to try and kill me, I don't die, I have Tank up and they don't, they die to fatigue, I don't.
 
The thing with yogg is *anything* can happen, even if there's an expected result of clearing the board and drawing some cards. His most problematic element to me is the value generation out of nowhere, which is why I feel like control is what gets fucked by Yogg so hard. Control matches are all about resource management, mainly with removal.

I posted a replay the other day where I was a dragon pally vs. token druid. He cycled a ton and was nearly out of cards, and by that point he played both violet teachers and both arcane giants which I cleared, he had an Onyxia on the board but was basically out of bombs beyond yogg. I also had enter the coliseum and avenging wrath from ivory knight, a big part of that was to actually prepare for a potential yogg boardstate that could be made since I had the rest in the bag. My deck still had equality, tirion, and keeper of uldaman on top of more removal like truesilvers so I still had value given he was basically out of steam.

I had rag lightlord on the board and a 1/1 against his 8/5 onyxia, then he played yogg.

The board clear yogg? I could handle. The draw yogg? Would put him in fatigue. The random secrets and token spam yogg? Also had cards for it.

But...none of those happened. What did happen is he ganged up my lightlord, ganged up his yogg, casted whirlwind and blood warriors, giving him another onyxia and yogg. Then shadowstepped onyxia.

Oh, and my board got cleared and got got buffed to 13 attack while living.

So I lost. My more controlling deck, even if the yogg would have died and I continued on, would have been blown out by him having 2 onyxias, 3 lightlords, and 4 yoggs added to his card pool out of thin air. I got outvalued suddenly, which even if you try to prepare for the 'yogg turn' can always happen in ways you can't go against. There's no deck that has removal able to handle the bombs he was given from that point in the game, and it was essentially a 20 minute match ended off of it. It's hard to shake off losses like that, but I think yogg goes beyond a mere perception thing.

People look too much at wether or not yogg ends the game on the turn he's played, or if the person who plays yogg ultimately wins. When he casts cards like thoughtsteal, entomb, burgle...you honestly change the game so much from that point, and it's totally random when that happens. It can make people win fatigue games out of nowhere, do face damage when it's highly relevant, and the times it loses people games don't matter as much since it isn't a card you play when you're ahead anyway.

I do agree and see where Kibler comes from with his video but I still think yogg is a bigger issue than he let on. But I also get the tricky spot Blizzard would be in since it's a card I do realize a ton of people find fun and love to play. I just also agree with Levi that it shouldn't even be allowed on ladder, which only rewards winning and he basically spits in the face of your time.
 
The issue with Yoss is that the majority of spells are beneficial, so he will more often than not give you a massive advantage after playing him.

Stopping the spells he cast on death may be the best way to balance him out, if Blizard choices to. They could also make him have a bigger downside, like removing the rest of your deck.
 
Levi said:
No, it's not. Having all my decisions in a fatigue game invalidated because Yogg can do 60 DAMAGE is far from okay. I don't enjoy wasting my time so I can lose to a literal coin flip.

When the Yogg top-end can do that it does NOT belong in any competitive environment, and ranked is meant to be competitive!

I don't care if Yogg only fucks me 60% of the time, that's not okay. Period.
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You lose the the game to "literal coin flips" all the time--damage from a Firewaker, a high or low roll on some RNG, Rags--the only difference is that Yogg has a higher degree of variance. Part of the reason you lost in your example is that you didn't have Elise, that's hardly Yogg's fault.

Plus, if Yogg is so powerful and wins you the game 60% of the time in the late game, then play one of your own. Or sure, Yogg cost you game that time and that loss was disappointing. That's the point Kibler is making: you lose to RNG all the time, but Yogg feels worse because of when he's played and the multiple chances he has to potential reverse (or lose) the game.

Your point about time lost, outside of your own personal experience, is pretty irrelevant. I often play Control Priest and the games aren't short. If I wanted to play something faster, I should and would. I play CP vs. CW all the time (winning more than I lose, heh) either way, wins are tiring. That's just the nature of our love.
 
Yogg is too good. I understand why people love it, but if the game is to be taken seriously on any level you can't have it part of any competitive meta game. This includes Ranked play and Tournaments.
 
KuroNeeko said:
point about time lost, outside of your own personal experience, is pretty irrelevant. I often play Control Priest and the games aren't short. If I wanted to play something faster, I should and would. I play CP vs. CW all the time (winning more than I lose, heh) either way, wins are tiring. That's just the nature of our love.
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CP is favored against CW, nice humblebrag.

Playing for 20 minutes and realizing exactly zero of my decisions mattered? Not fun. Not interactive. Reason I barely play now. Undertaker didn't slow me down. Secret paladin didn't slow me down. Only Yogg killed my desire to complete and improve.

I hope they nerf him so much that even the most ardent yogg haters are like, "too far."
 
Levi said:
CP is favored against CW, nice humblebrag.

Playing for 20 minutes and realizing exactly zero of my decisions mattered? Not fun. Not interactive. Reason I barely play now. Undertaker didn't slow me down. Secret paladin didn't slow me down. Only Yogg killed my desire to complete and improve.

I hope they nerf him so much that even the most ardent yogg haters are like, "too far."
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Not a humblebrag. CW is the only deck I can reliably beat right now.
DON'T TAKE THAT AWAY FROM ME.

Plenty of your decisions mattered or you wouldn't have even made it to that point in the game. In fact, there may have been places where you could have closed the game out sooner. Just because you're playing CW doesn't mean you automatically win in fatigue.

But whatever, mayne, if you're not having fun anymore, then don't play. You're not wrong. Some other players feel the same way. Sometimes you lose to RNG--Yogg is no different.
 
Levi said:
CP is favored against CW, nice humblebrag.

Playing for 20 minutes and realizing exactly zero of my decisions mattered? Not fun. Not interactive. Reason I barely play now. Undertaker didn't slow me down. Secret paladin didn't slow me down. Only Yogg killed my desire to complete and improve.

I hope they nerf him so much that even the most ardent yogg haters are like, "too far."
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It really depends on the deck. You can't just make a blanket statement like control priest is favored vs control warrior. Maybe you're just playing the match up wrong since it comes across so rarely. Priest really cannot match the health gain of justicar, so they have to play aggressively and force you into making mistakes or risks. Typically the slower deck is favored in control mirrors, and control warrior is typically slower than control priest. But again, that is a generalized statement.
 
Mobius and pet octopus said:
It really depends on the deck. You can't just make a blanket statement like control priest is favored vs control warrior. Maybe you're just playing the match up wrong since it comes across so rarely. Priest really cannot match the health gain of justicar, so they have to play aggressively and force you into making mistakes or risks. Typically the slower deck is favored in control mirrors, and control warrior is typically slower than control priest. But again, that is a generalized statement.
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In general, I find CP to be favored though it usually comes down to two things: whether or not the warrior is using Gorehowl and their Brawl / Golden Monkey timing. There are some cases where the warrior shouldn't do anything--no Golden Monkey, no Brawl, nothing.

Just play your Gorehowl. Hero power. Pass.
 
KuroNeeko said:
In general, I find CP to be favored though it usually comes down to two things: whether or not the warrior is using Gorehowl and their Brawl / Golden Monkey timing. There are some cases where the warrior shouldn't do anything--no Golden Monkey, no Brawl, nothing.

Just play your Gorehowl. Hero power. Pass.
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Gorehowl is one of the reasons I think CW is often favored. But it depends on what late game the priest is running. Since priest cannot effectively beat aggro and control with the same deck list, I think it's just weird to hear someone say CP is favored vs CW. I think 99% of CW lists run gorehowl and justicar, so it's simply difficult for the priest to actually kill the CW and they're typically the aggressor in the match simply because of how much health they can stack before getting into fatigue.
 
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