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- Thread starter ZealousD
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Mobius and pet octopus
Member
I've seen the video. I've pretty much said the same things prior to it. Yogg is still a problem and definitely needs a nerf. And people are right to fly off the handles, to some extent. At least as far as it goes to get the card changed. Sure people cry about even mediocre yogg plays, but that just stresses the importance of perception, it doesn't undermine the need for the nerf significantly.
As far as you having no horse in the race, of course you do. Your opinion is enough of a horse. You play the game right? You playing the game is a horse in the race. I never argued you were biased either way. I'm just saying you're saying it's now a problem that yogg can kill itself and then lose you the game, is no different than before where yogg could lose you the game right away.
I think plenty enough decks can beat shaman in an honest no-yogg no tuskar high roll fight.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
I think doing nothing and communicating very little, reinforces that the most. I think there will always be someone complaining for a change of course.
Doomhammer still punishes Rogue badly, and I don't think nerfing execute to 2 mana is going to lessen the amount of Warriors on ladder, so freeze mage is probably still a risky choice for ladder.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
What's wrong with anyfin paladin?
If there actually are less hunters, great. And I frankly don't feel like anyfin does that poorly against shaman... I have a high winrate at least. Most of the games I lose against them are due to tuskar totemic high rolls anyway and I still win a decent amount of those high rolls. I think the deck is much less anyfin dependent than people expect and there are ways to ensure warleaders die. But even if they are hexed you then have tirion and rag lightlord to carry.
In a tournament setting, like batstone, pros bet on anyfin and it was actually a targetted deck. It's much harder to target a deck in a ladder setting, so I could easily see anyfin becoming a stronger deck as a result.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Absolutely, it was ridiculous a midrange deck could burst you from 18 with no board.
I'm not sure where Shaman will land. I don't think the meres hurt it much. Rockbiter nerf makes coin Totem Golem much stronger.
Yogg nerf takes away one of the strongest comeback mechanics against them.
I don't think Tuskarr is necessary for thing from below synergy. Whether it costs 0 or 1 isn't that relevant very often.
Karsticles
Member
I will let you know.
Glad you got the 20 packs at least - no one should miss out on that, just because you never know if you might want to try the game out a year from now, and it would be nice to get a starter bonus.That is true, but 5-6 turns in Duelyst is ~3/4 of a normal match, too, so it's not a direct parallel to Hearthstone. My earliest kill in Duelyst was on turn 3, and that's not even mathematically possible in Hearthstone outside of Innervate combos (right?).
But on that note, isn't Barnes into Y'shaarj a 4 turn kill unless the opponent draws taunts or hard removal?
I've also yet to lose to the Boarhai combo deck in Duelyst. I've been able to outplay my opponent every time and deny the combo through positioning.
I will let you know.
That is true, but 5-6 turns in Duelyst is ~3/4 of a normal match, too, so it's not a direct parallel to Hearthstone. My earliest kill in Duelyst was on turn 3, and that's not even mathematically possible in Hearthstone outside of Innervate combos (right?).
But on that note, isn't Barnes into Y'shaarj a 4 turn kill unless the opponent draws taunts or hard removal?
I've also yet to lose to the Boarhai combo deck in Hearthstone. I've been able to outplay my opponent every time and deny the combo through positioning.
You keep saying that duelyst has so little luck that skill can mean super high winrates when you are playing inferior opponents.
I am awesome at everything (which obviously includes duelyst which I have played upwards of ten games) but I lost a game of duelyst the other day. Explain that!
My best theory is the dude was hacking.
Nothing wrong with anyfin but if freeze mage can target discard zoo n mid-shaman that sound fun
btw came to think about it maybe Yogg still very good against mid-shaman? you had really really think before Yogging, but with very lopsided board, Yogg maybe still good in that scenario?
Karsticles
Member
Elegant? These nerfs are anything but elegant. Elegance suggests some kind of sophistication that one might find impressive. The nerfs are:
Rockbiter - +1 mana cost. This does little to nothing to the card outside of being cheap removal early on, which most people don't consider problematic. Okay, you can't Doomhammer combo turn 6, so you have to wait one more turn to get 10 face damage instead.
Tuskarr Totemic - Dead card now if not from Thing from Below, and maybe still dead even with that. Significant tempo loss now in every situation.
Call of the Wild - +1 mana cost. So elegant.
Execute - +1 mana cost. So elegant.
Charge - now deleted from the game.
Abusive Sergeant - -1 attack. One of the few 1-drops still worth playing in some situations. I'm sure it will still see play often in Zoo.
Yogg - now gives +400 dust when opened in a pack of cards and deletes himself.
I'm not saying these nerfs were poorly done, but elegant is not a word I would apply.
lol :-X
On that note, my winrate to S-Rank was >80% this month in Duelyst. :-D
T
thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
It probably won't be good enough, but it doesn't seem that bad to pay 1 mana and a card to give Justicar, Harrison, or Sylvanus charge to attack a minion before the opponent uses one of the game's many removals on it, or to save some life from them ignoring your minions and hitting face.
It is pretty good against priest to help kill your sylv or cairne before he can entomb it. Talking more wild here where priest exists.
There have been legend control warriors lately teching in 2 coldlight oracles and a violet immunity thingy card just for fatigue matchups. So crazy teching in control warriors is already happening.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
There is a lot of space for charge to become useful if not great, if not now then perhaps the future. Calling it a dead card is a bit much by a long shot imo. Magmataur alpha can be a viable card to give charge, for example. Maybe you give a big windfury minion charge and clear their board. I think the potential is there.
T
thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
Woah, that's a new card to me.
Does seem like an interesting charge combo potential.
This new Charge card is actually something I'm worried Control Warrior might use.
And they still will use Execute... They have plenty mana for it (at least control deck)
Tempo mage is taking a blow. Yogg gave us the best synergy and rewarded for us for spamming spells. maybe drop Yogg and rotate in Barnes + Rhonin + Archmage is one viable option. Still a bit random and luck based tho. might have to drop that new Babbling book and replace with loot hoarder to maxmize barnes.
Crafting Bloodmage is higher priority
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Btw I like the nerfs its a step in right direction though. And this coming from someone that loves Yogg. But I hate seeing pros spamming Yogg. I dont want to watch them "Watch a card do their work"
oh man I dont want to deal with this. These legend players will be in my ranks at beginning of next season I think? Legend players get bounced up to 15 or higher?
And they still will use Execute... They have plenty mana for it (at least control deck)
Tempo mage is taking a blow. Yogg gave us the best synergy and rewarded for us for spamming spells. maybe drop Yogg and rotate in Barnes + Rhonin + Archmage is one viable option. Still a bit random and luck based tho. might have to drop that new Babbling book and replace with loot hoarder to maxmize barnes.
Crafting Bloodmage is higher priority
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Btw I like the nerfs its a step in right direction though. And this coming from someone that loves Yogg. But I hate seeing pros spamming Yogg. I dont want to watch them "Watch a card do their work"
oh man I dont want to deal with this. These legend players will be in my ranks at beginning of next season I think? Legend players get bounced up to 15 or higher?
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
CW will still use execute, but they won't be able to execute my 10/10 van cleef on 3 mana most likely. Muhahaha.
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
Terrible change
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
I can only imagine the only thing more than tilting than Coin, Prep, CotW on turn 4 off of a swashburglar has to be Prep, Coin, oh shit I fucked up, 2nd Prep, CotW.
Totally just did that.
Totally just did that.
bangbang i'm a timpani
Banned
right now its CW>Midrange Shaman>Rest
Well Barnes is still pretty stupid and a bad design. Usually decks that can pull Yshaarj consistently off of Barnes have other consistency issues. It's like losing to Astral Communion Druid off of Innverate Astral.I will let you know.
That is true, but 5-6 turns in Duelyst is ~3/4 of a normal match, too, so it's not a direct parallel to Hearthstone. My earliest kill in Duelyst was on turn 3, and that's not even mathematically possible in Hearthstone outside of Innervate combos (right?).
But on that note, isn't Barnes into Y'shaarj a 4 turn kill unless the opponent draws taunts or hard removal?
I've also yet to lose to the Boarhai combo deck in Duelyst. I've been able to outplay my opponent every time and deny the combo through positioning.
Barnes is the type of card that can get nerfed in the future if a deck is able to exploit it better.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Could it be Malygos rogue is secretly a top deck?
And I just lost to Rafaam in Dragon Warrior.
And I just lost to Rafaam in Dragon Warrior.
Oh, man.
Purify Priest is so close....
I'm consistently a turn away from killing people with it.
I think it says something though when a turn two 4/5 isn't even that big a deal anymore. : /
So far I've fallen from rank 10 to 14. Last night was literally, Shaman → Hunter → Shaman → Hunter → Warrior → Shaman → Mage.
The Y'shaarj Warlock deck is so, SO bad. lol You have just as much a chance to draw Y'shaarj as you do Barnes and if you don't draw Barnes first (or a Renounce Darkness), you're toast.
I did win with it once though and it was glorious. lol
I think I want to do something with Barnes → Y'shaarj → Prep / Gang Up in Rogue.
Yeeeeeeeeeeah. Just got to think of a way to survive until I can get it going...
edit: The balancing was somewhat fair, but I don't think THAT much will change. Hunters will still play CotSkill, though there may be a list that only runs one. Warlock and extreme aggro decks will probably still play Abusive. It's not that bad in Aggro Shaman or Warlock where they run things like Flame Tongue (for Shaman) or that Wolf in Warlock.
Rockbiter helps, but it won't really mitigate the Doomhammer → Rockbiter combo. Most midrange Shaman decks aren't that reliant on A'lakir so the loss of a double RB isn't that crazy. It does help a little in the beginning, I guess, since it will be harder to coin out both a creature and a RB in the same turn. Tuskarr Totem nerf--good. F that guy.
Execute at 2 mana is still super good, especially with all the activators Warrior still has. I think Dragon Warrior will die off. I got hit with a turn three Alexstraza's Champion + Execute just this morning--now that crap will be GONE.
The Yogg nerf makes sense. The Overload portion I think is pretty dumb. At this point, I think they should just leave it off....actually, how does Yogg work with something like Soul Fire? Do you still have to discard the card? I know you do with Astral Communion. If you do, then I guess fixing the Overload portion would be consistent with how he is supposed to work. I think the other change with Yogg is a little unfortunate, but extremely fair. People are still going to complain when they lose to him though.
As for Charge--who cares. It's such a niche deck anyway. It is in line with Blizzard's stance on Charge, so I'm fine with it.
I don't think much will change. CW may get a little stronger, but whatever. Still going to be waiting for the next expansion for anything significant to actually happen.
Purify Priest is so close....
I'm consistently a turn away from killing people with it.
I think it says something though when a turn two 4/5 isn't even that big a deal anymore. : /
So far I've fallen from rank 10 to 14. Last night was literally, Shaman → Hunter → Shaman → Hunter → Warrior → Shaman → Mage.
The Y'shaarj Warlock deck is so, SO bad. lol You have just as much a chance to draw Y'shaarj as you do Barnes and if you don't draw Barnes first (or a Renounce Darkness), you're toast.
I did win with it once though and it was glorious. lol
I think I want to do something with Barnes → Y'shaarj → Prep / Gang Up in Rogue.
Yeeeeeeeeeeah. Just got to think of a way to survive until I can get it going...
edit: The balancing was somewhat fair, but I don't think THAT much will change. Hunters will still play CotSkill, though there may be a list that only runs one. Warlock and extreme aggro decks will probably still play Abusive. It's not that bad in Aggro Shaman or Warlock where they run things like Flame Tongue (for Shaman) or that Wolf in Warlock.
Rockbiter helps, but it won't really mitigate the Doomhammer → Rockbiter combo. Most midrange Shaman decks aren't that reliant on A'lakir so the loss of a double RB isn't that crazy. It does help a little in the beginning, I guess, since it will be harder to coin out both a creature and a RB in the same turn. Tuskarr Totem nerf--good. F that guy.
Execute at 2 mana is still super good, especially with all the activators Warrior still has. I think Dragon Warrior will die off. I got hit with a turn three Alexstraza's Champion + Execute just this morning--now that crap will be GONE.
The Yogg nerf makes sense. The Overload portion I think is pretty dumb. At this point, I think they should just leave it off....actually, how does Yogg work with something like Soul Fire? Do you still have to discard the card? I know you do with Astral Communion. If you do, then I guess fixing the Overload portion would be consistent with how he is supposed to work. I think the other change with Yogg is a little unfortunate, but extremely fair. People are still going to complain when they lose to him though.
As for Charge--who cares. It's such a niche deck anyway. It is in line with Blizzard's stance on Charge, so I'm fine with it.
I don't think much will change. CW may get a little stronger, but whatever. Still going to be waiting for the next expansion for anything significant to actually happen.
Wow the nerf seem well thought out charge is the most interesting one to me. It's too bad the game lags too much to attempt anything outside of a brawl right now. COTW is now the 2nd 9 cost spell and a good one too. Mediv into COTW probably just got better excusing majordomo.
They should really consider changing the key word charge to attacking minions this turn and decreasing the cost of them. They essentially become removal.
1 mana charge I think will be a surprise hit.
They should really consider changing the key word charge to attacking minions this turn and decreasing the cost of them. They essentially become removal.
1 mana charge I think will be a surprise hit.
I think Medivh into cotw is worse after the nerf.
Best case at 8 mana you get a rag, a tirion, grommash, alakir, chromaggus. Worst case is medivh.
Best case at 9 mana is Ysera, King Krush, Soggoth, Malagos, Icehowl, Anubarak, Aviana. Worst case is Majordomo.
I'd rather have 8 mana minions i think. A little more immediate impact. And the bad result isn't potentially game losing.
Best case at 8 mana you get a rag, a tirion, grommash, alakir, chromaggus. Worst case is medivh.
Best case at 9 mana is Ysera, King Krush, Soggoth, Malagos, Icehowl, Anubarak, Aviana. Worst case is Majordomo.
I'd rather have 8 mana minions i think. A little more immediate impact. And the bad result isn't potentially game losing.
Holy carp at getting Medivh → CotSkill → King Krush....gawd dayum.
Dahbomb and I are planning to do a short nerf review stream around 9 CST. So stay tuned for that.
https://www.twitch.tv/zealousdemon
https://www.twitch.tv/zealousdemon
The Mango Sentinel
Member
Well Majordomo won't be an option for much longer, unless you're playing in Wild.
This is all kind of academic anyway. I doubt many hunters will be playing Medivh.
BlackBuzzard
Banned
Now if only Blizzard would nerf Druid. Always fucking top tier cause their basic cards are too versatile.
omg what the fudge that better not be a thing. Can I get a purify plz
Woudl suck to get turned into Ragnaros when you're bout full health
We gonna start with the "Innervate too OP" cries yet again? FFS, give it a rest. And no, Druid hasn't "always" been top tier. They've had more basic and classic cards in use throughout, and yes, there's a difference between both things.
If we are going to start saying Swipe and Wild Growth and Wrath are too good now, might as well nerf Fireball and Consecration and Eviscerate and Fiery War Axe and every card that does something good while we are at it.
If we are going to start saying Swipe and Wild Growth and Wrath are too good now, might as well nerf Fireball and Consecration and Eviscerate and Fiery War Axe and every card that does something good while we are at it.
The tier list is consistent with my own experience, I would add Midrange Hunter to tier 1 as well.
Well the top of the tier list at least... Shaman is at least tier 2 in Wild as well.
I would certainly think so. It is a huge part of the ladder up to rank 10 at least.
And yeah, Shaman seems super competitive even using a standard midrange shaman list.
Dahbomb and I will be starting the nerf stream in just a few moments.
https://www.twitch.tv/zealousdemon
https://www.twitch.tv/zealousdemon
TempoStorm released a wild meta snapshot
https://tempostorm.com/hearthstone/meta-snapshot/wild/2016-09-28
https://tempostorm.com/hearthstone/meta-snapshot/wild/2016-09-28
The Wild tier list is accurate at the top end but middle and below it's pretty bad and shouldn't be taken without a grain of salt. Obviously they don't have much data/information at that level so it's harder to really formulate lists at that range.
You can take Yogg Druid and do really well in Wild too. Not tier 1 but still pretty strong. They are also right in that Nzoth strategies dominate Wild so decks that can utilize that are just inherently strong. Hell you can even play Nzoth Rogue.
Only exception is Zoo because it's Zoo. Grim Patron Warrior counters the top 2 decks to some degree and Nzoth Priest counters the Patron Warrior deck.
You can take Yogg Druid and do really well in Wild too. Not tier 1 but still pretty strong. They are also right in that Nzoth strategies dominate Wild so decks that can utilize that are just inherently strong. Hell you can even play Nzoth Rogue.
Only exception is Zoo because it's Zoo. Grim Patron Warrior counters the top 2 decks to some degree and Nzoth Priest counters the Patron Warrior deck.
Which is why i think it's strange that they don't include nzoth in their hunter deck.
Just bringing back a belcher and highmane is insanely strong. You don't have to change a standard hunter deck at all besides the single card. Their strongest cards are already deathrattles.
Karsticles
Member
I ran a N'Zoth Hunter list for a season, and N'Zoth almost never saw play or mattered. The big issue is the same as with all Hunter decks - there's no card draw. So you're literally waiting 20+ turns to draw him a lot of the time.
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