paperboywriter
Member
its hard to play and not just play stuff on curve.
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- Thread starter ZealousD
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its hard to play and not just play stuff on curve.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
It's HS, none of the decks are hard to play. HS does take skill but the skill floor is very, very low.
Pfft 2 turns so slow.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
https://clips.twitch.tv/tidesoftime/UgliestWalrusPeteZaroll
"one of the easiest decks to play perfectly with is freeze mage" - tidesoftime
paperboywriter
Member
i dont agree at all. SP and the current shaman builds are way easier to play and not just because they allow for mistakes because there OP.
setting up lethal and basically playing with more than 10 cards in your hand is harder than tunnel trogg into golem into ferals.
You're an asshole.
Maybe don't shitpost and throw around accusations for no reason if you're trying to teach people etiquette.
Feel free to fuck off or actually contribute something on-topic to the thread.
So we are going to ignore the quotes of other top players who have said otherwise?
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
More difficult to play than the dumbest deck in quite some time...
What an endorsement.
paperboywriter
Member
also i dont understand why loosing to freeze mage is all that bad, yeah its shitty that you cant really do anything about it but it doesnt happen that often and it has counters in every meta if it ever becomes to oppressive.
loosing to shaman at the moment is way worse because they have a fav matchup against almost all the good decks and they really dont have to think a lot when they face you.
loosing to shaman at the moment is way worse because they have a fav matchup against almost all the good decks and they really dont have to think a lot when they face you.
I think there is SOME truth to that statement. Compared with other difficult to pilot decks like Grim Patron (original) and other control decks, Freeze Mage has a pretty straightforward win condition. Do the Alex, then Burn or get Emperor Discounts then Burn. That part of the game never changes, compared with other decks who have to contend with deciding to burn or control.
In that respect Freeze Mage is pretty straight forward. Compared to aggro decks though, Freeze Mage might as well be quantum mechanics. So there is a big of a spectrum there.
paperboywriter
Member
well no, thats not what i meant. i put freeze mage on the difficulty lvl of rogue, maybe a little below it. other than that i cant think of a current deck thats harder to play.
He isn't saying that freeze mage is easy to play, just that playing the deck perfecly is easier than most other decks.
I see where he is coming from. You need to know the basics of the deck to have a chance, but beyond that there isn't that much to learn.
Even with aggro and midrange you can easily make minor misplays,usually not playing around certian cards.
I see where he is coming from. You need to know the basics of the deck to have a chance, but beyond that there isn't that much to learn.
Even with aggro and midrange you can easily make minor misplays,usually not playing around certian cards.
There's no deck in the history of HS that is as difficult to play as OG Grim Patron and even that is not that hard because just like Freeze Mage you have a ton of solitaire like games where you draw the nuts and just OTK the opponent. Honestly speaking the most difficult part of that deck was calculating Frothing damages which at the decks peak people had made spreadsheets that you could have memorized to know the damage values with X amount of minions on board. That wouldn't even be needed if every card in that deck didn't take up so much animation time.
With the way HS is played, curve decks are the lowest low in terms of skill, then aggro decks. That's a majority of HS decks. After that are pure control decks, people talk to the heavens about Control Warrior but it's not that difficult either especially in many match ups (still harder than curve/aggro decks). The hardest decks in HS to play are combo decks.
Exceptions are Warlock decks. Zoo is still one of the hardest decks to play perfectly as well as Handlock/Renolock. Any deck where you are playing with large amount of card draw is harder to play than something that doesn't or one that requires more combos. The element of playing with cards that are not in your hand and using cards for control vs cars for combo is what makes them harder than the average decks.
Miracle Rogue, Renolock and Maly Druid are probably the hardest decks right now in the game. After that Zoo and then Freeze Mage, followed by Control Warrior. Midrange Shaman has a bit more nuance to it than just dropping stuff on curve but it's nothing too difficult.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
I think people view aggro decks as being low skill when they're actually very difficult to play perfectly. I would put freeze mage below zoolock, far below it. I'd put freeze mage on the same level as face hunter. And I personally believe face hunter takes a lot of skill to play perfectly, so it's not like I have zero respect for freeze mage.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Makydruid is so much harder than Malyrogue dunno why it's the better deck.
Zoolock yes, Face Hunter hell no.
Face Hunter has like 3 decisions it makes on average per game. Granted, the magnitude of those decisions is much higher than average but you have very little amount of decisions per game. It's just raw numbers, average Face Hunter game goes to 7-8 turns at the most, the first couple of turns you are playing a minion on curve which is not a decision and at the end you are hitting them for lethal.
It's why Face Hunter is historically one of the easiest decks to Ladder with and get top Legend with but Freeze Mage isn't. Even the easy games of FM you end up making more decisions per game than Hunter.
Zoolock is one of the hardest decks to play well with because positioning is off utmost important and you actually have legit decisions even as early as turn 1. Knowing which 1 mana minion to play based on match ups and situations, positioning minions for favorable trades in the future based on potential drops and of course it has the added draw mechanics where you are playing with cards outside of your hand. This is still the deck I see people misplay the most with online, very easy to pick out bad Zoo players (ie. people who netdecked it because it happened to be tier 1). I also think the meta deck building and tech process of Zoo is very difficult especially for the average player.
Edit: I guess it depends on how much value one puts on the magnitude of a decision versus raw number of decisions. A control deck might have lots of decisions per game but the magnitude of the decisions on average is lower versus aggro decks where it's the opposite (high magnitude but low amount).
Acerac
Banned
You're an asshole.
From you Levi, I'll wear that as a badge of honor. <3
Sorry to all for taking the thread off topic.
paperboywriter
Member
when you dont consider powerlvl or matchups or bans than the difficulty ranking of decks becomes entirely different. for example i agree with the statement that zoo is really hard, because tapping and especially placement can squeeze out small advantages that decide games. aggro decks and distribution of damage over several turns also is a hard thing to plan out.
the problem in HS is that the really good decks dont care about playing perfectly because even when you fuck up a bit, you still win because your cards are better. thats what makes them popular or even oppressive.
People that say HS is easy taking this into consideration, which is understandable, but dont understand where HS becomes difficult.
the problem in HS is that the really good decks dont care about playing perfectly because even when you fuck up a bit, you still win because your cards are better. thats what makes them popular or even oppressive.
People that say HS is easy taking this into consideration, which is understandable, but dont understand where HS becomes difficult.
Malyrogue had much more minion and in general had more tempo play than Malydruid
I think in general there are A LOT of Hearthstone players who don't understand why their netdeck is any good. In fact it is probably accurate to say that most Hearthstone players are downright AWFUL deck builders. Deckbuilding and knowing when to substitue cards into other decks is something that I think Hearthstone in general is really bad at teaching. Faced with a difficult skill (building a deck from nothing), most people simply go to the internet and copy (as much as their collection will allow) and end up with the Netdeck meta snapshot of the week.
I don't really know how to teach deckbuliding in a card game as the other games I've tried don't do a good job either (MtG, L5R, Duelyst). And netdecking is a constant across every game I've played or heard of being played. So it's probably impossible to remove at some level, but maybe it is possible to make people less reliant on it in some way. Sounds like "BIG CHANGE (tm)" which means its probably too complex for this game, but an interesting idea for the genre in general.
paperboywriter
Member
maly rouge has to run garbage like sinister strike. even moonfire is usable in druid because of drake and bloodmage. sinisters strike is a absolutely dead card until the finish, same as mindblast and the old charge. decks that are based around having a combo with dead cards like that always have a problem with competing with decks that do something similar but have better, more flexible cards.
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
Delete Barnes from the game.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Sinister can still put decent work in as a combo activator in a pinch, or as a cycle off gadget. It's not the worst thing to draw even though it doesn't impact board directly. I think druid could be a harder class but I think overall it's rather simple, in part because the choose one mechanic is often slanted towards one option.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Every time I use burn in Malydruid for board control I end up lacking the burn in the end for the combo. I'm tempted to take out the ramp and arcane druids but Druid doesn't have good burn to replace them with.
With rogue I feel like I can fight over the board and even get solid damage in the process. I still only have very limited experience with Malydruid though.
Sinister Strike isn't garbage it's very cost efficient. For the same amount of damage you have to play 3 moonfires and these 2 extra damage can make all the difference between winning and losing. Because of it I can use an eviscerate to clear a dragon can use the shiv to just cycle.
I just came home and read this thread saying that mind blast was the best idea for it.
I was kinda scared since if my opponent healed I would have lost, but nope, he believed that my hand was full of mind blasts and conceded
God Bless mind blast and the horrible rng of forbidden shaping from my opponent
I wanna hear what Barnes did this time.
In general Maly burn is just bonus for Maly Druid, the full combo not even pull OTK
You just want ramp fast, clear everything, drop Giant, drop Maly to stay a turn, that a gameplan
MalyRogue not relying Maly himself to stay a turn, in general he only drop for OTK
Malydruid on other hand rely Malygos to be able stay on board to be able pull swipe shenanigan
Karsticles
Member
One of the worst cards ever printed. Especially combined with Innervate, another horrible card.
He can be pretty annoying, but I don't know that he is trully overpowered. I did however lose to a Harrison when he spawned Y'Shaarj, Rage Unbound, which at end of turned, spawned another YRU. A 10/10 which spawns new cards at the end of a coined turn 3 is pretty rough.
There are a bunch of the "newish" cards that have low odds, crazy high upside. I think that actually adds a more fun "random" mechanic to the game.
having a lot of fun with this brawl. there are some really strong 1-card decks (you can counter most of them though) but since it's the first day a lot of people are trying different cards and classes so it's enjoyable. I haven't faced the same deck in 10 games or so
+it's really easy to complete quests with it.
+it's really easy to complete quests with it.
Karsticles
Member
Barnes is pure power creep. A 4-mana minion is a 4/5 at max stats. Barnes is a 3/4 that summons a 1/1, so same stats. Except Barnes can pull minions with all kinds of crazy deathrattles and abilities like Ragnaros and Sylvannas. Worse, the minions he pulls can be game-deciding at 4-mana based on that RNG. He's basically Piloted Shredder in overdrive mode.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Hah got a rage request telling to have fun at rank 7 with this trash gay deck.
That's the whole point I'm playing a tier 3 or less deck to have fun and dropped to 7 from 5 because of it.
Weirdly though he was playing beast druid.
That's the whole point I'm playing a tier 3 or less deck to have fun and dropped to 7 from 5 because of it.
Weirdly though he was playing beast druid.
I guess I have to adjust
Princess Carl
Member
And yet somehow balancing is slow and cumbersome not unlike printed card games.
Boy thank god this game is digital.
For stat only split stat like that sucked, Dragonling mechanic isn't as good as yeti
I still think Barnes is fine, like 2 month in the power level of card stay moderate, at same point everyone knew Yogg is busted, not the case for Barnes its not even as good as tuskarr pre-nerf
I wish this thing not work for deathrattle tho, dahbomb might yell me but I think barnes pull minion with active abilities can made interesting shift in middle of game, example I pull auctioneer from it, but the use for spell is sub-optimal, should I go or not?
Its something that can decide the game, but its can made me lose too because go with sub-optimal use of card just from result from barnes
Deathrattle pull is just highroll tho, its change nothing on the gameplan from bothside just an advantage for deathrattle.
Well,that's not really how it works. 3/4 + 1/1 is usually weaker than 4/5 (2/1+ 2/4 < 4/5 and 2/3+1/1 < 3/4 in most cases).
Not that barnes isn't a big problem, but in the worst case he is worse than yeti.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Barnes isn't power creep, let alone "pure" power creep. No one plays 4/5 yeti. And a 3/4 + 1/1 is not even the same exact thing as a 4/5 anyway. It's also a legendary card, which I am mostly pointing out because you can only have 1 of it, compared to 2 of yetis.
I think on average it is better than a yeti. But a playable 4 drop has to be better than a yeti, let alone being legendary which will add inconsistency to your deck since you can't double up. That doesn't make it power creep, because yeti wasn't even being played in competitive decks.
Barnes isn't power creep at all. He's a legendary so he needs to be more powerful than a Basic or Common card. And he is, but only when he "hits" which isn't 100% of the time, of course. When he misses, he's arguably worse than a Yeti and definitely worse than Shredder.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Barnes really is the dumbest in shaman. I don't think he's broken he's just feelsbad inducing.
I've won a couple games from getting Malygos from Barnes, that was undeserved and I'd be frustrated were I my opponent as well.
Innervating Barnes in a serious deck is a bad idea since you lack the mana to profit of the most cards even when it hits and the hero power alone of many classes is enough to clear the 1/1.
I've won a couple games from getting Malygos from Barnes, that was undeserved and I'd be frustrated were I my opponent as well.
Innervating Barnes in a serious deck is a bad idea since you lack the mana to profit of the most cards even when it hits and the hero power alone of many classes is enough to clear the 1/1.
Barnes is an awful card as far as the design goes. I wouldn't say it's overpowered but it can definitely win a game by itself if he pulls cards like Tirion, Sylvanas, Rag and the like. ** fun&interactive **
it's playable and often used in midrange Shaman since most of his 1/1 pulls are good.
it's playable and often used in midrange Shaman since most of his 1/1 pulls are good.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Speaking of barnes... https://hsreplay.net/uploads/upload/dPWxi3Su5pbSFfUK4xUq62/?utm_source=hdt
Also it was my last match before hitting rank 5 this season, coincidentally. Did rank 10ish->5 using maly rogue.
malygos was last minion in deck, stupid shaman left auctioneer up and that 4 mana malygos off barnes let me easily cycle through my deck and lethal
Also it was my last match before hitting rank 5 this season, coincidentally. Did rank 10ish->5 using maly rogue.
yeah been playing faeria a bit still. mostly its the solo content though. * Btw I actually own the core set so I just collect gold
edit-->:
that barnes pulled out a miracle right there. gj!
edit-->:
that barnes pulled out a miracle right there. gj!
Karsticles
Member
I think you guys are forgetting the part where you can construct your deck so Barnes never pulls a pure 1/1. If Barnes pulls a pretty much any Hunter minion he will have an unreasonably strong effect on the board for his mana cost.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
They were counterarguing that barnes is yeti at worst. Barnes unable to whiff is a serious deck construction cost, even hunter would like to play houndmaster and Cloaked Huntress of late.
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