CraigerGamer
Member
Found it.
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Hearthstone |OT7/7| _ Give Tyrande | _ Blizzard: Give Amazon Money
- Thread starter ZealousD
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Found it.
Karsticles
Member
On average, though, people don't play very expensive spells. There are only a few spells above 4-mana that get played, so you often aren't gaining any tempo from the spell. By definition, you won't ever gain tempo from it. It can have amazing moments, but it almost always breaks even or loses when it counts a 1-mana spell (or coin - lol).
They can sometimes be better just by virtue of nobody playing around them since everyone netdecks, but they're definitely a lot worse without BS cards like mad scientist.
I remember back before standard I actually used spellbender quite a bit due to so many secret pallies using Kings(IIRC this was pre-LoE so no Keeper), which blew them out on turn 4 since they did much worse than just skipping their turn.
Counterspell is fine. You don't need to tempo off of it for it to win you the game. It protecting one of you targets from a Hex can be game winning by itself (despite it being equal on mana). Counterspell before a FM has put up an Ice Block can also be game winning or before a Frost Nova. And you don't put up Counter Spell before the coin has been used.
It's just too bad we don't have enough cards like these in the game.
It's just too bad we don't have enough cards like these in the game.
slightconfuse
Banned
In a meta,with secret Hunter and midrange shaman I feel like it has a place
This is the key right here. More cards that reward strategic play, less cards that are just boring plays on curve. Stuff like Loatheb, Counterspell and the like encourage SMART plays and not just using them exactly when they are available. The more sorts of these plays they add, the better not just for the game but for the esport aspect (which I frankly consider a complete joke).
Hearthstone will be the first game on stage at Blizzcon next month: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1293793
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Is the game even really curve stone at the moment? It's not like it was with secret paladin. It's not even like it was before where midrange shaman had more curve power with tuskar, and even a powerful finisher with rockbiter/windfury.
I think the game is less tempo oriented than it has been in quite a while. Maybe I am seeing something different? Last couple days I haven't even seen tempo or dragon warrior, and those are probably the most tempo oriented decks atm.
I think the game is less tempo oriented than it has been in quite a while. Maybe I am seeing something different? Last couple days I haven't even seen tempo or dragon warrior, and those are probably the most tempo oriented decks atm.
this is slightly disappointing...
I usually take the perception that the last thing is the best in any show... the inverse is true with the first thing. i hope I'm totally wrong
don't take me too seriously though.. just a weird perception
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Usually the first and the last thing are the most important thing in the show, because you're most likely to remember the first and the last thing. (assuming they thought about it that way in terms of ordering things)
slightconfuse
Banned
next card set will be overwatch based.
BananasWithGuns
Member
Next expansion could maybe be Pandaria based since they delayed that Halfhill card back to November a while back.
Or it could be completely unrelated lol.
Or it could be completely unrelated lol.
oh I really hope so..
new game mode?
oh blizzard, c'mon! give me a damn new mode!
Damn this post turned out longer than I expected:
It really is hard to say what the next 2 sets and rotation will provide. I made a few posts almost a month ago on the subject during the whole Firebat Ban Tournament.
One in particular turns out to be pretty on point, considering it was prior to nerf announcement:
I spent a lot of time thinking about it since after TGT came out I ran what was essentially a witchdoctor shaman that had Mukla's Champion, Totem Golem, Tuskar Totemic and Thunderbluff valiant. It played exactly the same as current mid-range shaman and yet it was never a top tier deck, even though I almost got Legend with it, but it was a Tier 4 deck at best and Shaman was a laughing stock.
Like others I thought card draw was the reason Shaman failed because the deck would run out of steam and lose board or it would take over the board and snowball into an unstoppable force. I also was salty as hell trying to win games with Totem RNG and lightning storm RNG. I can't tell you how many games were lost because Lightning Storm rolled 2 damage on the wrong minion.
LoE changed things: Tunnel Trogg finally gave Shaman a way to get a threat out early that wasn't a zombie chow, but it really only gave Aggro Shaman their time in the sun.
The real boost to Mid-range was the change to Standard. Shaman always had strong silence, removal and burst, but it gave shaman something that it never had before: tempo. Thing from Below finally gave mid range a way to protect a board so it could truly snowball.
Finally Karazahn brought Spirt Claws and Maelstrom Portal that allow for insane early removal, further eliminating the weakness of Shaman, not being able to keep a board to allow for snowballing. Adding those cards into Shaman at this point seems moronic from a balance viewpoint and yet few realized the potential when the card were revealed.
Standard also removed so many of the counters decks and cards: I remember dreading seeing Zoo or Paladin while laddering with Shaman. Sticky deathrattles and strong early game of other classes made mid-range style very difficult.
I don't suppose I'm mentioning anything new here, but taken as a whole the Shaman problem is definitely more complicated than one card. I also thing focusing on limiting the strength of one class does not really bring the other classes into balance. Hopefully the next expansion can provide some powerful tools for other classes and allow them to shine.
It really is hard to say what the next 2 sets and rotation will provide. I made a few posts almost a month ago on the subject during the whole Firebat Ban Tournament.
One in particular turns out to be pretty on point, considering it was prior to nerf announcement:
I spent a lot of time thinking about it since after TGT came out I ran what was essentially a witchdoctor shaman that had Mukla's Champion, Totem Golem, Tuskar Totemic and Thunderbluff valiant. It played exactly the same as current mid-range shaman and yet it was never a top tier deck, even though I almost got Legend with it, but it was a Tier 4 deck at best and Shaman was a laughing stock.
Like others I thought card draw was the reason Shaman failed because the deck would run out of steam and lose board or it would take over the board and snowball into an unstoppable force. I also was salty as hell trying to win games with Totem RNG and lightning storm RNG. I can't tell you how many games were lost because Lightning Storm rolled 2 damage on the wrong minion.
LoE changed things: Tunnel Trogg finally gave Shaman a way to get a threat out early that wasn't a zombie chow, but it really only gave Aggro Shaman their time in the sun.
The real boost to Mid-range was the change to Standard. Shaman always had strong silence, removal and burst, but it gave shaman something that it never had before: tempo. Thing from Below finally gave mid range a way to protect a board so it could truly snowball.
Finally Karazahn brought Spirt Claws and Maelstrom Portal that allow for insane early removal, further eliminating the weakness of Shaman, not being able to keep a board to allow for snowballing. Adding those cards into Shaman at this point seems moronic from a balance viewpoint and yet few realized the potential when the card were revealed.
Standard also removed so many of the counters decks and cards: I remember dreading seeing Zoo or Paladin while laddering with Shaman. Sticky deathrattles and strong early game of other classes made mid-range style very difficult.
I don't suppose I'm mentioning anything new here, but taken as a whole the Shaman problem is definitely more complicated than one card. I also thing focusing on limiting the strength of one class does not really bring the other classes into balance. Hopefully the next expansion can provide some powerful tools for other classes and allow them to shine.
Much less than it was before. As you noted, Dragon Warrior is pretty dead and some of the more popular decks are spell heavy decks such as Tempo Mage, Freeze Mage, Maly/Miracle Rogue and Token/Maly Druid, control decks such as the different Warrior variants, and even the most popular Hunter list at the moment is less of a curve deck than before with the focus on Traps and Trap synergy.
The meta is pretty decent, it's just too bad Yogg is still a degenerate garbage anti-skill card that continues to shit everything up despite the "nerfs".
My expectations for the next expansion:
*Priest about to get buffed a lot.
*Rogues will still not get anything that justifies the Blade Flurry nerf.
*Expensive Warlock spells so that people can try to use Chogall in Renolock. In reality there will be some Zoo card.
*Blizzard is going to accidentally sneak in a good early game minion for Paladin and might bring back Secret Paladin in Standard.
*Shamans will still get something in the next expansion they can exploit. Hopefully some more control cards but in reality we will get some more Totem stuff.
*Blizzard will continue to push Taunt Warrior.
*Druid might get a ramp card and a beast card.
*Mage is going to get some terrible common cards like Shatter in order to balance Arena.
*More Deathrattle Beast garbage minions for Hunter and probably more secret stuff. Would be shocked if we see much of anything else for Hunter.
In general:
*Going to continue with their new design goal of not making neutral minions too strong but instead make class minions stronger. Some class is going to get an outrageous class minion like Shamans got.
*They are going to scale back on the RNG. They were doing this alright until Karazhan happened.
*Less burn cards and charge cards. Would be shocked to see many of either.
*Some basic cards are going to get power crept and people will complain.
I really hope we see some new broad mechanics. It's been too long since we had a new Keyword or a new card icon (like Inspire).
*Priest about to get buffed a lot.
*Rogues will still not get anything that justifies the Blade Flurry nerf.
*Expensive Warlock spells so that people can try to use Chogall in Renolock. In reality there will be some Zoo card.
*Blizzard is going to accidentally sneak in a good early game minion for Paladin and might bring back Secret Paladin in Standard.
*Shamans will still get something in the next expansion they can exploit. Hopefully some more control cards but in reality we will get some more Totem stuff.
*Blizzard will continue to push Taunt Warrior.
*Druid might get a ramp card and a beast card.
*Mage is going to get some terrible common cards like Shatter in order to balance Arena.
*More Deathrattle Beast garbage minions for Hunter and probably more secret stuff. Would be shocked if we see much of anything else for Hunter.
In general:
*Going to continue with their new design goal of not making neutral minions too strong but instead make class minions stronger. Some class is going to get an outrageous class minion like Shamans got.
*They are going to scale back on the RNG. They were doing this alright until Karazhan happened.
*Less burn cards and charge cards. Would be shocked to see many of either.
*Some basic cards are going to get power crept and people will complain.
I really hope we see some new broad mechanics. It's been too long since we had a new Keyword or a new card icon (like Inspire).
slightconfuse
Banned
Hope mage gets a better card than anomalous.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
I'm hoping they get a pure value legendary, one that doesn't fit the point at face to finish the game.
paperboywriter
Member
somehow read that as MAGA.
too many trump threads around.
on a other note, golden rogue, finally!
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Make Aggro Great Again?
slightconfuse
Banned
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
They've messed around with anti-battlecry cards before. The problem is that cards usually are bad on their own. I think they need to explore some more complex cards, something like "if your opponent has a battlecry minion, silence it, otherwise +1/+1", so it's just a vanilla minion if it doesn't do anything. Of course that is just an example of an if/or type of card.
"If your opponent has a battlecry minion then deal damage to it. Silence battlecry minions after they are played."
Of course in hindsight the text would be more like "silence X, or do Y" and "deal 3 to X. After your opponent plays X silence it", to be very concise and to the point.
It's basically impossible to print any new card to counter it. You dethrone it either by nerfing it, or by printing something even more unacceptably overpowered.
slightconfuse
Banned
Just play eater of secrets
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
that's not a real answer to secret paladin.
Eater of Secrets though..
Yeah I know what you mean. I am not sure I actually want Secret Paladin dethrone because it means the creation of something insanely degenerate.
I got the perfect anti Secret Paladin:
6 mana 1/1 "Battlecry: If your opponent played 3 or more different Secrets this game then deal 30 damage to the enemy hero".
slightconfuse
Banned
What makes eater,of secret a and card the mana cost?
The current meta?
The current meta?
You mean what makes it not effective against Secret Paladin?
Eater of Secret works against Secret Paladin if you already have the board. If they have the board and they play MC, your Eater of Secrets isn't good enough. They still have a 6/6 and other stuff on board. Your massive Eater of Secrets is going to get Uldaman'd on board or just ignored while they hit face. When MC is dropped down, it has done its job of thinning the deck of low cost cards and makes it easier to top deck Dr Balanced/Tirion/Nzoth.
As far as why it's not used in Standard, there aren't enough top decks that use Secrets. And even then they have to use multiple secrets for it to be really worth it. It's still a decent anti Secret Hunter and anti Freeze Mage tech option... but let's be real here the card was made for the sole purpose of countering Mysterious Challenger.
BananasWithGuns
Member
Secret N'Zoth Paladin is an okay deck in Standard at the moment and Paladin is probably due for a new secret in the next expansion as well. Wouldn't surprise if it gets more popular before the end of the year.
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
What even am I supposed to do against secret hunter
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Yup I'd play a 6 Mana 6/6 mill yourself for 3 to 4 dead draws.
not attack until it's profitable
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
My win rate hasn't been great against them with rogue, but it's largely due to my own misplays I think. I also don't have any weapon breaks but I don't think it's necessary. They're kinda aggressive like face hunters but don't have as much burst and need more fuel out of board. Not proccing cat trick until you have an AOE seems to be a big deal. That is what really seems to be different, and just playing around secrets in general would hopefully be enough.
I actually had a match go really poorly in the first 5 turns due to traps and I still almost won. I tried to remove grandmother too quickly and got hit by cat trick and huffer in the same turn, and then freeze trap on pillager where I felt I lost if I waited but that wasn't true. I got the board back with sap and si7, and later when he replayed the cat trick I had skulker to remove it. I almost won from there and I can only imagine if I had coin for my auctioneer, maybe that extra cycle is all it would have taken to get 1 more burn spell for malygos.
Needs the early game minions to generate value from Secrets and to secure the set play with MC. As it is, Secret Paladin deck in Standard generally gets carried by MC but you can't rely solely on one card.
Paladin has no 2/3/5 turn plays. And even their turn 4 doesn't develop a body, it's usually Truesilver. Essentially the entire curve is missing from 1-6. You got people play Silent Knight in Secret Paladin deck lol.
Run Harrison, cash in those tasty 3+ Bows.
Which makes it the most poorly designed card in the history of post-release Hearthstone imo. A tech card that only meets an extremely niche edge case (multiple secrets) that is horribly dumpster-tier against any deck that doesn't contain secrets (aka most decks). And it only emerged as concept because of some other extremely overpowered card. Layers upon layers of bad ideas and shitty execution.
Karsticles
Member
That YGO tier design.
That is in its own tier of silver bullets.
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
https://hsreplay.net/replay/uXK484qkNQQr8LoSqvhRqX
why
Did I lose to playing War Axe over Alexstraza's Champion first turn? How am I supposed to know these things! They're called secrets ffs
why
Did I lose to playing War Axe over Alexstraza's Champion first turn? How am I supposed to know these things! They're called secrets ffs
That YGO tier design.
Been watching episodes of the original anime. still good after all these yrs
Weird I wonder I can lookup other player's replays on here. Found some reddit thread from a month ago that they were planning to add profiles at some point
The Wizard
Member
Why attack with face into highmane on turn 7 when you could have used it to clear a 2/2?
That's why you play Murlocs with it. That's your early game sorted ;P
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
On turn 7 you face tanked a highmane for literally no apparent reason. And then you didn't clear a 2/2 because you face tanked the highmane with your 2 attack. That was really confusing. You ended up taking 8 extra damage you should not have. The next turn you could have either cleared the second high mane or hit him in the face with berserker and forcing him to trade. I think you could have won that.
I feel like I'm starting to get the hang of Rogue. Check out this short but sweet game vs a Priest.
https://hsreplay.net/replay/br9fi6R9pik94yvdfqeoPe
If any Rogue experts wouldn't mind taking a look at letting me know where I fucked up I'd appreciate it. I'm so uncomfortable playing Rogue--from the mulligan on I really don't know what I should be doing.
Also, does questing rogue have a chance vs zoo? Other than spellpower/fan? I've faced a couple and never felt like I had a chance.
Here's my last game vs Zoo, I know I did terribly but I'm not sure where.
https://hsreplay.net/uploads/upload/aJTzgxFDbJx9DxskDHyxLT/?utm_source=hdt&utm_medium=client
(I have two classes golden and 17 total ranked wins with Rogue, I'm terrible at it but practicing questing rogue is the most fun I've had in this game since Old Gods launched)
https://hsreplay.net/replay/br9fi6R9pik94yvdfqeoPe
If any Rogue experts wouldn't mind taking a look at letting me know where I fucked up I'd appreciate it. I'm so uncomfortable playing Rogue--from the mulligan on I really don't know what I should be doing.
Also, does questing rogue have a chance vs zoo? Other than spellpower/fan? I've faced a couple and never felt like I had a chance.
Here's my last game vs Zoo, I know I did terribly but I'm not sure where.
https://hsreplay.net/uploads/upload/aJTzgxFDbJx9DxskDHyxLT/?utm_source=hdt&utm_medium=client
(I have two classes golden and 17 total ranked wins with Rogue, I'm terrible at it but practicing questing rogue is the most fun I've had in this game since Old Gods launched)
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