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[Mobius and pet octopus]

If you bet on the outcome of a game where the best players have a 60% winrate, yes I would consider that gambling.

If you bet on something where the outcome is uncertain it is gambling.

The bet being an entry fee is irrelevant. You put up money to participate for the chance to get a large prize. Just because the vig is super high because blizzard is stingy doesn't change the fact it is gambling.

The chances of a person getting to 12 wins is less than 10% for the very best players. That is a slim chance.

Your definition has huge holes. "If you bet on something where the outcome is uncertain it is gambling."

So if there is a baseball tournament, and you sign up your team for 50 bucks, and there is a prize (whatever it is). The outcome is uncertain, and therefore according to your definition it is gambling.

"The chances of a person getting to 12 wins is less than 10% for the very best players. That is a slim chance."

I don't know about that stat but that doesn't fit in the context of your argument that gambling is a bet where the outcome is uncertain. All you're saying here, in the context of your argument, is that there is a small chance for the very best players to come out on top of all the other best players. To that I would say, well... duh. If everyone is a really good player, your chance of winning is lower. If 12 of the best players in the world entered a tournament, that means the absolute best player in the world is only slightly favored to win.

 

[Levi]

Entering a tournament mode (one you can use free in-game currency on) is "gambling" now? I would say that's the dumbest thing I've read all day but people on reddit are saying Blizzard should be sued for making this mode, so...

 

[Yaboosh]

Entering a tournament mode (one you can use free in-game currency on) is "gambling" now? I would say that's the dumbest thing I've read all day but people on reddit are saying Blizzard should be sued for making this mode, so...

How is this even a tournament mode?

But yes, yes that is what I'm saying.

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

I believe gambling is a wager of something of value on the outcome of an event that is out of the person's control.

This is basically what I said but the previous definition was deeper, in that I am saying the degree of control is important. I was saying that if luck is the predominant factor, then it's out of the person's control. Or conversely, I am saying that since hearthstone's predominant factor is skill, thus being in the hands of the persons playing.

Even in traditional sports, there is variance that can take control out of the player's hands. Take baseball for example. Someone hits the ball, it's going for the wall but a gust of wind pushes it out of bounds. Or pushes an out of bounds hit in bounds. Thus the degree of control is important. I don't think anyone would say playing baseball can count as gambling. It's a game where skill is the predominant factor, despite all the elements of luck that affects the outcome.

Thus I think the only argument for calling hearthstone gambling is saying that luck outweighs skill. Since, I don't believe that is true, I don't see hearthstone as gambling.

And if heroic brawl is gambling, wouldn't ladder be gambling? You're betting a star and you're winning stars and gold.

 

[Levi]

I don't think you can use words to win an argument against someone who is willfully ignorant about what words actually mean. So this whole back and forth is extremely pointless. If he wants to pretend words have whatever meaning is convenient to him, probably should just write him off and move on.

 

[JesseZao]

My main problem with the timing of this is that I don't want any more OG packs. If this releases after the next expansion I may be enticed. Otherwise, I'm saving my thousands for new packs.

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

My main problem with the timing of this is that I don't want any more OG packs. If this releases after the next expansion I may be enticed. Otherwise, I'm saving my thousands for new packs.

Is it only classic packs? I was wondering about that.

I kind of feel like this mode is aimed at people who don't really need the rewards but it's obviously a big attraction.

 

[slightconfuse]

not feeling a brawl of all midrange shaman. maybe in a different meta.

should make for some fun streams

 

[Levi]

Is it only classic packs? I was wondering about that.
.

It's the most recent release, so this week it'll be Old Gods.

 

[Dahbomb]

Not sure why there is so much gambling talk in here and in the other thread.

This is identical to Arena only with even less RNG because you know your own cards and class. So it is in fact less gamble/RNG drive than Arena. Where were all the gambling issues back then for Arena? Didn't hear anyone complain about it back in the day.

Seems like what people really have an issue with is the high cost of entry and less guaranteed returns on investment. In Arena you can never lose more than 50 gold worth of investment, with this you can lose 900 gold worth of investment. That's why it feels more of a gamble when in reality it isn't.

 

[JesseZao]

Is it only classic packs? I was wondering about that.

I kind of feel like this mode is aimed at people who don't really need the rewards but it's obviously a big attraction.

By OG I meant Old Gods. I don't need anymore packs from existing sets. I'm saving for the next set.

I wonder if streamers are going to try-hard 15min+ delay when this launches (Reybone will). 'Twill be some expensive attempts at sniping.

They really are banking on the stream excitement angle of this. It worked well when HS first came out and I see this as being a big hit on twitch.

 

[slightconfuse]

love Maly rogue.

got a maly off of barnes and killed a resurrected injured warrior

 

[QFNS]

Not sure why there is so much gambling talk in here and in the other thread.

This is identical to Arena only with even less RNG because you know your own cards and class. So it is in fact less gamble/RNG drive than Arena. Where were all the gambling issues back then for Arena? Didn't hear anyone complain about it back in the day.

Seems like what people really have an issue with is the high cost of entry and less guaranteed returns on investment. In Arena you can never lose more than 50 gold worth of investment, with this you can lose 900 gold worth of investment. That's why it feels more of a gamble when in reality it isn't.

I think many people see games of Hearthstone as a much more luck based outcome than a skill based one. It doesn't help that popular streamers perpetuate this perception by constantly complaining about the RNG. Whether those people are right or not doesn't really matter as it is a perception issue. Same as with the gambling discussion before, whether or not it is true objectively is less important than how it is percieved. IMO, Blizzard have not done a good job making people think and feel that the game is skillful, so folks consider it luck based. From that perspective this gambling talk is very obvious.

Whether people are right to see it that way is a different discussion, but it seems that at least some part of the audience does have that opinion.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

love Maly rogue.

got a maly off of barnes and killed a resurrected injured warrior

Killed 3 VekLor taunts with opponents whirlwind + Malygos and got in with van Cleef for lethal.

 

[patchday]

Killed 3 VekLor taunts with opponents whirlwind + Malygos and got in with van Cleef for lethal.

come on bro share some replays sometime

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

come on bro share some replays sometime

can't playing on my phone exclusively.

 

[Drkirby]

Even though I sort of want to play, I think I'm not going to do that Heroic Brawl, since I'll likely just get super salty when I go 3-3.

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

I kind of want to try the mode, but for 1000 gold... I'm just not sure it's different enough from ladder to be worth that. So I'd need like 5+ wins to earn off it and while I think that can happen... eh. Maybe.

 

[fertygo]

I wish I had 1000 gold

they really should give free run for opening week

 

[Cat Party]

Should be fun to watch Brawl streams but I'm not throwing money/gold away to get mad losing to control warrior and Shaman.

 

[Levi]

So, I'm only good with one deck apparently.

Punished for playing Druid.

I actually looked, and my all time best win-rate with decks I've played more than a few times is Zoo Warlock, where I'm 51-30 since I installed Track-o-bot, followed my Control Priest with 32-20. My overall control warrior winrate is 93-90, but that's misleading because I play a lot of warrior on my F2P accounts and it's really hard to have a good winrate when you're missing a lot of the expensive cards. I think I'm probably about 60% if you only count my NA results.

I'm 8-2 on NA with my current build of N'zoth Warrior, climbed from 15 to 13 just now (cut one Infested to add a Harrison and it's been doing work.)

 

[Karsticles]

Someone asked me to post when/if Duelyst's devs released a balance patch to address problems in their current meta, so here you go:
https://news.duelyst.com/duelyst-patch-1-74/

They aren't the nerfs I would have wanted for Kron or Zen'rui (though both were too good, no doubt). Kara is an interesting change, and we'll have to see what kinds of decks spawn as a result of what she is now. The other changes make a lot of sense. I was hoping for Pax and Falcius nerfs, though.

For anyone curious, it took 1.5 months for Counterplay Games to address the meta complaints after their Shim'zar expansion was released.

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

It's weird reading all this feedback that basically screams "I'm not the center of attention for 1 week of hearthstone, this is bullshit". So many decisions about hearthstone has been made for the 90%. But when a decision that lasts a week, maybe more when it returns, that focuses on that 10%, hell even 1%, it's "FU blizzard, why you take away my pack!" It's a single damn pack... just pretend tavern brawl is taking a week off (they've done this before!).

Someone asked me to post when/if Duelyst's devs released a balance patch to address problems in their current meta, so here you go:
https://news.duelyst.com/duelyst-patch-1-74/

They aren't the nerfs I would have wanted for Kron or Zen'rui (though both were too good, no doubt). Kara is an interesting change, and we'll have to see what kinds of decks spawn as a result of what she is now. The other changes make a lot of sense. I was hoping for Pax and Falcius nerfs, though.

For anyone curious, it took 1.5 months for Counterplay Games to address the meta complaints after their Shim'zar expansion was released.

They literally stole rockbiter nerf! Lawsuit incoming!

 

[Salex_]

I still firmly believe that hearthstone is a game of skill. Otherwise how else could someone maintain a 60-70% winrate with a tier 3 deck?

Do you really think HS is a "game of skill"? The skill cap is really a joke compared to any active tournament game. Had to turn off the HS tournament and watch the SF/Tekken/GGXrd tournament streams this past weekend after seeing how some of those games were decided.

Who's maintaining a 60-70% winrate on the current ladder using a tier 3 deck? Under rank 5.

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

Do you really think HS is a "game of skill"? The skill cap is really a joke compared to any active tournament game.

Who's maintaining a 60-70% winrate on the current ladder using a tier 3 deck? Under rank 5.

I hit legend with control paladin which at the time was an archetype not even being played much at all which later was ranked at tier 3 at best. I think my stats for that season was 68% winrate from rank 5 to legend. Manhack watched a good amount it and someone else did as well.

And right now I am playing maly rogue and I had a 60% winrate last night where I got to rank 3. I was watching ryzen hit legend last night playing maly rogue. I was watching another streamer (forget his name, he only had like 10 viewers) playing maly rogue in legend and doing fine at a high rank.

I find it unbelievable that people still call hearthstone not a skill based game, after all the consistent tournament accomplishments people have hit. I don't even know why I bother trying to argue over this particular topic. I think people are entitled to their opinions. So be free to believe whatever you want.

 

[thepotatoman]

Do you really think HS is a "game of skill"? The skill cap is really a joke compared to any active tournament game. Had to turn off the HS tournament and watch the SF/Tekken/GGXrd tournament streams this past weekend after seeing how some of those games were decided.

Who's maintaining a 60-70% winrate on the current ladder using a tier 3 deck? Under rank 5.

I think the skill gap between 60% and 70% win rates is really high, and that even the best player in the world doesn't play perfectly.

The biggest problem is that the win rates between an average skilled player and the best player in the world isn't a large enough gap.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

I hit legend with control paladin which at the time was an archetype not even being played much at all which later was ranked at tier 3 at best. I think my stats for that season was 68% winrate from rank 5 to legend. Manhack watched a good amount it and someone else did as well.

And right now I am playing maly rogue and I had a 60% winrate last night where I got to rank 3. I was watching ryzen hit legend last night playing maly rogue. I was watching another streamer (forget his name, he only had like 10 viewers) playing maly rogue in legend and doing fine at a high rank.

I find it unbelievable that people still call hearthstone not a skill based game, after all the consistent tournament accomplishments people have hit. I don't even know why I bother trying to argue over this particular topic. I think people are entitled to their opinions. So be free to believe whatever you want.

I never bought Maly Rogue being tier 3 though.

 

[patchday]

maly rogue? It is not as effortless as say- Shaman which has like all the god given tools to do everything. Not hating tho I enjoy Shaman. Shaman is great at control, god like heals (Hallazael), burst (Bloodlust), board control, card pulls (manatide), tank (Thing From Below), etc.

So we know no rogue is tier 1. That means any build besides Shaman is going to take more 'effort'.

Granted, you can argue how much effort. And I have to post the usual disclaimer I'm a Rank 14- so I am only speaking from point of view of someone that is slightly above avg or so

I'm still having to learn about Mulligans for rogue LOL!!! crap this is depressing I really should just lay low lol

 

[Portugeezer]

When people play babbling shit or cabalist tome, it should say whether or not a secret was created by that WHEN IT'S PLAYED!

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

When people play babbling shit or cabalist tome, it should say whether or not a secret was created by that WHEN IT'S PLAYED!

I would like that too. Gotta watch the stupid hand more intently.

 

[Celegus]

Wow. Worst brawl yet by a mile, I'd take webspinners over this any day of the week. Just looks slimy to me.

 

[patchday]

Do you really think HS is a "game of skill"? The skill cap is really a joke compared to any active tournament game. Had to turn off the HS tournament and watch the SF/Tekken/GGXrd tournament streams this past weekend after seeing how some of those games were decided.

Who's maintaining a 60-70% winrate on the current ladder using a tier 3 deck? Under rank 5.

What is more interesting then win rate is what Frodan discussed during Value Town whereas what impresses them is when the same player can consistently qualify and hit top 10 in those Asian tournaments. And this is those crazy tournaments where anyone could show. his point was there was this kid that consistently qualified and got into top 10 but he never reached critical acclaim cause he didnt win.

So he was saying that RNG adds variance at higher levels of play. But it was great this unsung hero could do this over & over in those cutthroat tournaments. I don't think he mentioned the kid's name. This was the Value town episode right before Yogg got nerfed that had Frodan, Noxious, etc

That is a sign of skill too me when the same dude can climb over the corpses of hundreds of scrubs over & over to get to the top spots

 

[BananasWithGuns]

Wow. Worst brawl yet by a mile, I'd take webspinners over this any day of the week. Just looks slimy to me.

Eh, while I won't even touch the heroic brawl, it's at least nice to see Blizzard experimenting with new things.

 

[Eddie Bax]

Is face hunter back? Feels like 2/3 of the decks I've run into tonight in Wild are face hunter. Just an anomaly? So boring to play against.

 

[fertygo]

HS stream going be crazy af doe during brawl period

can't wait to see such like xixo and rosty super tryhard grind

 

[slightconfuse]

Getting shatter off a swashbucklwr is the worst
So many good mage cards and that is drawn

 

[Finalow]

while I really like Blizzard adding new modes to the game (something which is really fucking needed), I don't like how this is basically arena + constructed standard ladder, at all. they should use different rules, and I want to hope they will after the first heroic brawl ends.

that being said, I'm still tempted to try it but I don't think I will. 1k gold is a lot, you need at least 4-5 wins to get barely-worth-it rewards, and getting consistent wins is gonna be a lot harder than getting your monthly rank 5.
doesn't help that it will probably be a shaman clown fiesta where most matches will be decided by who coins out Totem Golem or who high rolls a Lightning Storm. >fun

also as someone mentioned, 'pro players' don't really need those rewards, unless they somehow care about getting all the golden legendaries. they'll just play it because a) it's something new b) it's gonna attract a lot of twitch viewers/subs, at first anyway.

 

[Yaboosh]

For all the bitching about the new brawl, at least it is only for a week, for now. It being a permanent new mode would be way more disappointing since I want a new mode to be better than that is.

 

[ZealousD]

These rewards are very bad for the average player. The "break even" point here (where the rewards are roughly equivalent to 1000g) is about 5 wins. That means the average person who enters the heroic brawl and gets 3 wins (50% winrate) is going to lose and that gold investment would have been better spent elsewhere.

That means the incentive for the average HS player to enter is very low, which means the skill level of people entering the brawl is going to be very high, which means it will be even harder to achieve 5 wins. Blizzard was not kidding when they said this mode was not for the "faint of heart".This is for people who consistently hit legend or have gold to spare.

 

[JesseZao]

snip

The worst part is the timing. It's such blatant bait to clean out everyone's gold stash. They must be releasing the expansion the week of Blizzcon.

 

[Cat Party]

I mean, if you go on a good roll here, the rewards are insane. I'm sure loads of people will take the risk.

 

[BananasWithGuns]

I mean, if you go on a good roll here, the rewards are insane. I'm sure loads of people will take the risk.

If you're sitting on 1000+ gold it just doesn't seem worth the risk with an expansion on the horizon.

 

[sibarraz]

I wonder how long the queus will be? Since the entry fee is a high barrier for a big percentage of players of the game, I doubt tha I will see short queues after the first days

 

[CraigerGamer]

Can you walk me through your mulligan strat for your Maly deck?

Mobius, I bet (har har) you could help answer this question.

Unless u don't want to.

 

[Yaboosh]

If you're sitting on 1000+ gold it just doesn't seem worth the risk with an expansion on the horizon.

If you're sitting on 1000 gold you probably have so many cards that the fifty packs isn't much of a motivator.

 

[JesseZao]

If you're sitting on 1000 gold you probably have so many cards that the fifty packs isn't much of a motivator.

Especially old packs.

 

[Portugeezer]

LUL https://clips.twitch.tv/playhearthstone/CarefulTarsierSmoocherZ

 

[patchday]

It would be nice if they added some single player content and maybe some coop but let's be real I'm a gold digger I'm gonna follow the loot. Thus I'm just gonna stick to the ladder unless for some reason they make it so I can farm even easier offline.

I'm a sucker for bling. Still got this Golden Malygos even tho I got a normal one as well. I feel like I'm rich. The gold digger within me is oddly completed til the new expansion

 

[Dahbomb]

These rewards are very bad for the average player. The "break even" point here (where the rewards are roughly equivalent to 1000g) is about 5 wins. That means the average person who enters the heroic brawl and gets 3 wins (50% winrate) is going to lose and that gold investment would have been better spent elsewhere.

That means the incentive for the average HS player to enter is very low, which means the skill level of people entering the brawl is going to be very high, which means it will be even harder to achieve 5 wins. Blizzard was not kidding when they said this mode was not for the "faint of heart".This is for people who consistently hit legend or have gold to spare.

Well to be honest they said that Heroic AI in the Adventures are also not for the faint of heart lol.

 

[ricelord]

If you're sitting on 1000 gold you probably have so many cards that the fifty packs isn't much of a motivator.

sitting on 6140 and i'm still not going to waste it on this new brawl, nice blizz i'm waiting on that new expansion.