Support NeoGAF

[Levi]

tempo warrior players: Is Varian worth crafting or just use rafaam?

Rafaam is better vs slower decks, Varian is stronger vs faster decks.

It's tough to suggest him as craft since he only works in the one deck (and some Tavern brawls) but if you want to play the best version of Tempo Warrior for a fast meta you need him.

 

[LucidMomentum]

I'm playing a totem shaman right now and I'm stuck at rank 11. Feels like everything I do is countered.

What problems are you having in your matchups? Last month it got me to Rank 10, but people are catching on to it for sure.

 

[Interfectum]

What problems are you having in your matchups? Last month it got me to Rank 10, but people are catching on to it for sure.

Warriors knocking everything I put down then when I finally get a good foothold then they sylvanas->brawl and gg. Priests are similar. Even having a hard time with zoolocks now. I just feel like I can't get any board control and I'm fighting an uphill battle from turn 2 onward. Only matchup I easily beat is a hunter or similar shaman.

A lot of it could be my lack of skill but it just seems im slamming a brick wall at rank 11. I'd like to get to rank 10 before the month is out but doesn't look like it's happening.

 

[A Pretty Panda]

Leave Fiery War Axe alone

 

[Salex_]

Idk why I'm still putting myself through ranked after getting rank 5. Nothing but shaman, zoolock, always win trades into fucking call of the wild hunter, and a bootleg version of control warrior because most people don't have all the cards to make the closest you can get to a "hard counter" to this aggro bullshit. Why is warrior the only class that's allowed to counter aggro and why is it so expensive compared to aggro decks? Blizzard pls.

Leave Fiery War Axe alone

It was funny to see people complain about this on reddit. "Please nerf this card, it won't let me put 3 minions on the board by turn 2".

 

[Levi]

Leave Fiery War Axe alone

Nah, they can nerf it. After all, we still have Cursed Blade!

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Nerf Fiery War Axe so my secret keeper always lives. Pretty please.

 

[Levi]

I'm playing a totem shaman right now and I'm stuck at rank 11. Feels like everything I do is countered.

Mind sharing your list? Totem Shaman is pretty optimized at this point, you may not be playing the best version.

If you're scared of brawl you're playing wrong. Don't over commit; keep some resources in hand. Most totem shamans I brawl are able to refill the board within a turn or two.

 

[patchday]

hm, no one ever mentions Rogue. Are they considered gimped?

any decent budget rogue decks people can use to climb? Anytime I try to use rogue in ranked I get spanked usually

 

[bjaelke]

Good tournament class, but currently in a rough spot on ladder.

 

[Yaboosh]

Biggest problem with rogue (and warrior) is that they are just crazy expensive.

 

[patchday]

Ah that's whats going on. Thanks a lot guys. Yeah no extra dust to waste right now

 

[Levi]

hm, no one ever mentions Rogue. Are they considered gimped?

any decent budget rogue decks people can use to climb? Anytime I try to use rogue in ranked I get spanked usually

Rogue has a couple of strong decks (N'zoth; Miracle) but their decks are weak to aggressive decks, which is most of what you'll see on ladder.

Mr. Yagut was experimenting with a tempo rogue recently--not exactly a budget deck since it runs Leeroy, but definitely cheaper than N'zoth and likely easier to pilot than Miracle.

http://www.hearthstonetopdecks.com/decks/mryaguts-midrange-rogue-june-2016-season-27/

 

[CraigerGamer]

Haven't played HS at all since Old Gods was released. Played that first week but haven't opened up the game since.

Anyway...finally checked the meta after being gone for so long and I am kind of shocked how slim the offerings are. Only 3 characters really seem viable and top decks are all just variations of these 3 archetypes. What happened? Priest, Rogue, and Paladin are nowhere to be found and 40% of the top 10 decks are for one character. Is the meta still settling or is this what can be expected until the next release? How disappointing.

 

[Levi]

Haven't played HS at all since Old Gods was released. Played that first week but haven't opened up the game since.

Anyway...finally checked the meta after being gone for so long and I am kind of shocked how slim the offerings are. Only 3 characters really seem viable and top decks are all just variations of these 3 archetypes. What happened? Priest, Rogue, and Paladin are nowhere to be found and 40% of the top 10 decks are for one character. Is the meta still settling or is this what can be expected until the next release? How disappointing.

I wouldn't say the meta is completely solved (we just saw Tempo Mage make a little resurgence in tournaments and on ladder) but it's already feeling pretty stale.

It's not that their isn't class diversity, it's that every match feels the same.

Facing Zoo, Shaman or Hunter, you're just racing to see who curves out better. It's boring.

 

[Dahbomb]

Kripp said it best. Meta right now is basically 3-4 different "tempo" aggressive decks that counter each other in a rock paper scissor fashion and among those few, they beat everything else.

Zoo beats Shaman but then Zoo gets beaten by Warrior who gets beaten by Hunter who gets beaten by Shaman. They are all using the same god damn decks, all about curve lords and spamming the board with minions. Whatever control or combo deck you bring, one of these decks will crush it.

Mind you this is after they nerfed like 5 aggressive cards from Standard (Leper Gnome, Juggler, Arcane Golem, Owl etc.) and also banned out a good chunk of the aggressive/tempo oriented minions from Standard.

 

[LucidMomentum]

Warriors knocking everything I put down then when I finally get a good foothold then they sylvanas->brawl and gg. Priests are similar. Even having a hard time with zoolocks now. I just feel like I can't get any board control and I'm fighting an uphill battle from turn 2 onward. Only matchup I easily beat is a hunter or similar shaman.

A lot of it could be my lack of skill but it just seems im slamming a brick wall at rank 11. I'd like to get to rank 10 before the month is out but doesn't look like it's happening.

Nah, I was wondering if you were having different problems than I was but that's usually what I lose too as well. Zoolock comes down to curve and what you or your opponent chose to hard remove during the game, Priest requires you to force them to trade spells for less than optimal minions, hunter is a little of both but with weapons and armor aggro decks have always had trouble with them.

The bummer about ranked is a lot of the time it really is decided by curve. But if you pay attention to card order and what your decks win conditions are, you can find lethal in surprising ways with a Totem deck.

Mind sharing your list? Totem Shaman is pretty optimized at this point, you may not be playing the best version.

If you're scared of brawl you're playing wrong. Don't over commit; keep some resources in hand. Most totem shamans I brawl are able to refill the board within a turn or two.

Yeah, I'm interested in this list too.

Mind you this is after they nerfed like 5 aggressive cards from Standard (Leper Gnome, Juggler, Arcane Golem, Owl etc.) and also banned out a good chunk of the aggressive/tempo oriented minions from Standard.

Oddly enough, my budget Paladin divine shield blessings deck with no minions above 5 mana has won me quite a few games. Sometimes people just can't comprehend keeping up board presence when you've got Blessing of Kings and Keeper of Uldaman.

 

[Xanathus]

Kripp said it best. Meta right now is basically 3-4 different "tempo" aggressive decks that counter each other in a rock paper scissor fashion and among those few, they beat everything else.

Zoo beats Shaman but then Zoo gets beaten by Warrior who gets beaten by Hunter who gets beaten by Shaman. They are all using the same god damn decks, all about curve lords and spamming the board with minions. Whatever control or combo deck you bring, one of these decks will crush it.

Mind you this is after they nerfed like 5 aggressive cards from Standard (Leper Gnome, Juggler, Arcane Golem, Owl etc.) and also banned out a good chunk of the aggressive/tempo oriented minions from Standard.

I've been saying that ever since people were complaining about Patron and it got nerfed. This is the game you get when you destroy every single combo-based deck. Wouldn't be surprised if you check the posting histories of the people right now whining about the game being all about dropping the best minions on curve and see that these are the same people whining about Freeze Mage/Handlock/Patron/Miracle Rogue.

 

[Dahbomb]

No surprise, Grim Patron was the only deck that really punished you for flooding the board.

The deck should've been nerfed but the way in which they nerfed it was abysmal. Grim Patrons being able to charge to counter small minions was fine although the Frothing Berserker OTK was over the top obviously.

And guess what... they STILL haven't released a minion that would be broken with old Warsong Commander like they always claimed it.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

No surprise, Grim Patron was the only deck that really punished you for flooding the board.

The deck should've been nerfed but the way in which they nerfed it was abysmal. Grim Patrons being able to charge to counter small minions was fine although the Frothing Berserker OTK was over the top obviously.

And guess what... they STILL haven't released a minion that would be broken with old Warsong Commander like they always claimed it.

If Bloodhoof Brave could charge to enrage and clear a tiny minion oh boy.

 

[Vanillalite]

The other problem is in general secrets by hunter and mage helped against aggro.

They are harder to play without mad scientist.

Plus a lot of the sticky deathrattle minions got pushed to wild.

 

[Levi]

Got a shaman quest. Playing Aggro Shaman in Casual and bming even time i top deck lethal.

Gotta help generate shaman hate so maybe Doomhammer or TfB get nerfed.

 

[BananasWithGuns]

Got a shaman quest. Playing Aggro Shaman in Casual and bming even time i top deck lethal.

Gotta help generate shaman hate so maybe Doomhammer or TfB get nerfed.

 

[Levi]

http://static.giantbomb.com/uploads/original/13/139155/2536312-2379004-jeff_headshake.gif[/IM][/QUOTE]

This Druid clears my board.. I hero power, play Tuskarr Totemic and two zero mana 5/5s with taunt. My Tuskarr gives me a Mana Tide Totem. The Druid concedes. That's a lot of stats and a guaranteed card draw for 5 mana.

Shaman is so fair.

 

[MetroidPrimeRib]

Is it just me or does the tempostorm control warrior deck look like total ass? why is it #1

Whats a good CW deck

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

This Druid clears my board.. I hero power, play Tuskarr Totemic and two zero mana 5/5s with taunt. My Tuskarr gives me a Mana Tide Totem. The Druid concedes. That's a lot of stats and a guaranteed card draw for 5 mana.

Shaman is so fair.

How much mAna did you have left?

 

[Fixed1979]

tempo warrior players: Is Varian worth crafting or just use rafaam?

I have both Varian and Rafaam but I'm doing fine playing without...legendaries are Cairne, Malkorok, Grommash and Ragnaros...and Finley. Mind you I haven't played much this month (@ rank 10). Used a similar list last month though.

Is it just me or does the tempostorm control warrior deck look like total ass? why is it #1

Whats a good CW deck

C'thun

 

[LucidMomentum]

How much mAna did you have left?

He said 5 mana, so I'm assuming he had already dropped 3 totems beforehand for the 0 mana value on TfB.

Most likely Tuskarr on turn 3/4, depending on if he got Tunnel Trogg and/or Totem Golem.

Basically, how I'd do it.

1 - Tunnel Trogg
2 - Totem Golem
3 - Hero Power / Coin Tuskarr
4 - Tuskarr / Hero Power + Flame Juggler
5 - Hero Power + Tuskarr + TfB x2

A lot of the time people will forget that it may be better to Hero Power and then drop TfB than just dropping TfB, because you can fit your curve with two minions and it'll lower the cost of your second TfB.

 

[BananasWithGuns]

This Druid clears my board.. I hero power, play Tuskarr Totemic and two zero mana 5/5s with taunt. My Tuskarr gives me a Mana Tide Totem. The Druid concedes. That's a lot of stats and a guaranteed card draw for 5 mana.

Shaman is so fair.

Like, I'm not saying it's not a strong card. It is. But nerf worthy? I dunno about that, especially when stuff like Dr. Boom and Piloted Shredder escaped unscathed.

If Blizzard was going to look at any Shaman cards it should be Doomhammer (which you mentioned) and Tunnel Trogg (which they probably won't because it's rotating out anyway).

As far as Tuskarr Totemic goes, Blizzard probably should have added a new totem in WoG to dilute the pool but the card is probably within the range of power expected from most 3 mana class cards in my opinion.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

He said 5 mana, so I'm assuming he had already dropped 3 totems beforehand for the 0 mana value on TfB.

Most likely Tuskarr on turn 3/4, depending on if he got Tunnel Trogg and/or Totem Golem.

Basically, how I'd do it.

1 - Tunnel Trogg
2 - Totem Golem
3 - Hero Power / Coin Tuskarr
4 - Tuskarr / Hero Power + Flame Juggler
5 - Hero Power + Tuskarr + TfB x2

A lot of the time people will forget that it may be better to Hero Power and then drop TfB than just dropping TfB, because you can fit your curve with two minions and it'll lower the cost of your second TfB.

thing from below costs 6, that's only 5 cost reductions.

 

[Levi]

How much mAna did you have left?

I was overloaded and had an empty board, only 5 mana available. It was fortunate I drew both TfB and rolled a Mana Tide Totem, I'll admit that. But it's not like either of those things are uncommon for Shaman's to do.

I went 5-2 in an hour, and the two I lost were games I conceded because I had zero interest in any game I couldn't win by turn 7 or 8.

The most degenerate win I had where one where the Rogue opponent had lethal on board vs my empty board, and they had 6 health. I had a Lava Burst and a Flame Juggler in my hand. With Lava Burst being only 5 damange, my lethal options were a 1/5 chance of Flame Juggler pinging face or a 1/4 chance of rolling a spellpower totem. I rolled the totem, got spellpower, attacked for lethal and, of course, BMed my opponent.

 

[fertygo]

I Like Thing from Below because its encourage developing something, there's some decision there when you drop standard 2 drop or just hero powering to get below early

Instead nerfing I love to see other class get similar card


Like card the reducted cost for every 1/1 hero power dude for paladin, card that reduced cost with spell damage that you cast this turn for mage, etc

 

[Lone_Prodigy]

I've seen Shamans coin out Hero Power turn 1 so they can get TfB out faster.

 

[Levi]

Like, I'm not saying it's not a strong card. It is. But nerf worthy? I dunno about that, especially when stuff like Dr. Boom and Piloted Shredder escaped unscathed.

If Blizzard was going to look at any Shaman cards it should be Doomhammer (which you mentioned) and Tunnel Trogg (which they probably won't because it's rotating out anyway).

As far as Tuskarr Totemic goes, Blizzard probably should have added a new totem in WoG to dilute the pool but the card is probably within the range of power expected from most 3 mana class cards in my opinion.

TfB, in a vacuum, isn't that bad. Heck, if it only procced off of hero power totems, it'd be a totally fair card.

Combined with Tuskarr Totemic (which has a 3/7 chance of getting insane value, and only one objectively poor result) and Flametongue (which is already very powerful in a class that generates tokens and runs so many one-drops) it veers into over powered territory.

You could probably argue that almost any individual Shaman card is fine. It's just how well they all synergize with each other that makes it feel completely unfair to play. Shaman gets a bunch of cards out early because of overload, which is fair, but then they can negate the tempo loss of overload by buffing their minion(s), which is not.

Doomhammer without Rockbiter isn't quite as bad. Tuskarr Totemic if there were more bad outcomes would be fine. TfB is supposed to make a bad hero power into a postive, but Aggro Shaman runs Sir Finley AND TfB because you don't even need the Shaman Hero power to get value from it.

It's hard to look at Shaman and say "Nerf that card" because you can make an argument in favor of any of their cards and be right. Really, it's their synergies that need nerfed, and I don't know how you do that.

The "drawbacks" of running an RNG card like Tuskarr or overload cards such as Feral Spirits or Flamewreathed are pretty much nonexistent.

 

[Tacitus_]

Overload used to be fucked though. Dogs and Lightning storm are overcosted for what they accomplish. Once TGT and LOE cycle out - that is, next year - they'll lose all the nasty cards. If they don't get anything good to fill them in, they'll be back to meh tier.

 

[Vanillalite]

Used to be

Then they gave them all of those unlock mana cards which makes it harder to combat.

 

[fertygo]

TfB, in a vacuum, isn't that bad. Heck, if it only procced off of hero power totems, it'd be a totally fair card.

Combined with Tuskarr Totemic (which has a 3/7 chance of getting insane value, and only one objectively poor result) and Flametongue (which is already very powerful in a class that generates tokens and runs so many one-drops) it veers into over powered territory.

You could probably argue that almost any individual Shaman card is fine. It's just how well they all synergize with each other that makes it feel completely unfair to play. Shaman gets a bunch of cards out early because of overload, which is fair, but then they can negate the tempo loss of overload by buffing their minion(s), which is not.

Doomhammer without Rockbiter isn't quite as bad. Tuskarr Totemic if there were more bad outcomes would be fine. TfB is supposed to make a bad hero power into a postive, but Aggro Shaman runs Sir Finley AND TfB because you don't even need the Shaman Hero power to get value from it.

It's hard to look at Shaman and say "Nerf that card" because you can make an argument in favor of any of their cards and be right. Really, it's their synergies that need nerfed, and I don't know how you do that.

The "drawbacks" of running an RNG card like Tuskarr or overload cards such as Feral Spirits or Flamewreathed are pretty much nonexistent.

So in the end its came down to Tunnel frigging Trogg

 

[Levi]

With regard to Thing from Below, every time you hero power as Shaman you're paying 2 mana for a one mana card. TfB gives you that extra mana back. That's fair.

The problem is, you don't need to take the tempo loss of hero powering on your early turns in order to get the discounts. You can play cards that generate tempo, such as Tuskarr Totemic, Totem Golem or Flametongue Totem, and then you also get to "bank" additional tempo in a future TfB play. That's ridiculous.

TfB should either only proc off of hero powers, OR it should work like Knight of the Wild for Druid.

 

[LucidMomentum]

thing from below costs 6, that's only 5 cost reductions.

Oops. Shows you how skilled I am playing Shaman Kappa

So in the end its came down to Tunnel frigging Trogg

That and the cards like Thunderbluff Valiant and Bloodlust that make even 1 drop totems really hard to deal with if you don't remove them ASAP.

Heck, Doomhammer and two turns when you have two Rockbiter Weapons = 20 damage to face if not protected against. I mean Ashbringer is potentially 15 damage across 3 turns, but still.

With regard to Thing from Below, every time you hero power as Shaman you're paying 2 mana for a one mana card. TfB gives you that extra mana back. That's fair.

The problem is, you don't need to take the tempo loss of hero powering on your early turns in order to get the discounts. You can play cards that generate tempo, such as Tuskarr Totemic, Totem Golem or Flametongue Totem, and then you also get to "bank" additional tempo in a future TfB play. That's ridiculous.

TfB should either only proc off of hero powers, OR it should work like Knight of the Wild for Druid.

Yeah, TfB is great because you get 3-4 solid on-curve totem cards to play, let alone hero power.

 

[Tarazet]

So in the end its came down to Tunnel frigging Trogg

Watch it be a non-issue without Tuskarr Totemic and Totem Golem. In fact, they will probably become the worst class again, just as they were for about 2 years solid.

 

[ZealousD]

No surprise, Grim Patron was the only deck that really punished you for flooding the board.

The deck should've been nerfed but the way in which they nerfed it was abysmal. Grim Patrons being able to charge to counter small minions was fine although the Frothing Berserker OTK was over the top obviously.

And guess what... they STILL haven't released a minion that would be broken with old Warsong Commander like they always claimed it.

Nerfing Warsong Commander was the right call. Frothing Berserker wasn't really an issue outside of charge shenanigans and I like seeing the card used as it is now. The only problem with the Warsong nerf was keeping it a 2/3 rather than buffing it to a 2/4 or 3/3.

 

[fertygo]

Warsong nerf is right.. card is BS and design limiting.. its not countering harder zoo because its warrior card and warrior not have problem dealing with zoo or aggro anyway

 

[Lone_Prodigy]

Someone mentioned this game was too expensive.

I started playing late (probably close to a year ago) and have 5000+ coins banked, all expansions bought (with coins), and enough dust to make decent decks. I aim for Rank 15 each month (for the extra reward card) and usually hit it.

Rerolling all 40-coin quests and doing weekly Brawls is a good way to get coins and packs. No idea how many Young Dragonhawks I've dusted so far.

Zero Arena runs.

 

[QFNS]

As has been the case for a long time, the issue with Zoo being so insanely strong is that board clears are few in number and inefficient to play. If there were more board clears that had some utility when the board isn't flooded (e.g. Doomsayer, but not things like Excavated Evil) the minion flooding that Zoo relies on would have a natural counter in a control archetype.

Priest is the example why just having lots of board clears is not enough. They have a card that literally destroys almost all zoo minions (Horror, kills all minions with 2 or less atk), yet the class is dumpster tier because the spell is totall ass against any other deck. A card that said: Deal 4 damage to a minion, but if there is more than 1 minion on the board deal 3 damage to ALL minions. Would give a control deck a card that isn't simply anti-zoo tech but also has some kind of removal or combo use.

However this kind of text is "complicated" and the Blizzard developers seems to not like implementing cards like this. Evidinced by the fact we have never seen conditional effects like that which have benefits on both sides. Not to say that they couldn't but it seems they tend not to create this sort of card. And the game desperately needs the type of variety a versatile card like that would provide. I wonder if the concerns about power creep are probably what prevent a lot of it. You would think that with the implementation of Standard and things being set to rotate out if they would be willing to take a bigger "power level" chance with some Standard cards now.

 

[jgminto]

Someone mentioned this game was too expensive.

I started playing late (probably close to a year ago) and have 5000+ coins banked, all expansions bought (with coins), and enough dust to make decent decks. I aim for Rank 15 each month (for the extra reward card) and usually hit it.

Rerolling all 40-coin quests and doing weekly Brawls is a good way to get coins and packs. No idea how many Young Dragonhawks I've dusted so far.

Zero Arena runs.

You should look into arena, it's definitely the best way to make gold once you're familiar with it.

 

[fertygo]

I think thhè fact there is no convoluted text is what people keep playing HS despite maybe its somewhat related to shit balancing n meta.

And creating versatile card without convoluted text is possible look to Blood Ichor.. priest need more clever card like that

 

[QFNS]

I think thhè fact there is no convoluted text is what people keep playing HS despite maybe its somewhat related to shit balancing n meta.

And creating versatile card without convoluted text is possible look to Blood Ichor.. priest need more clever card like that

The text doesn't need to be convoluted. Having clear text is a wonderful goal and something lots of games could benefit from. I spent about 5 seconds coming up with that text, I'm sure a professional game designer could do much better after some iteration. Or they could tell me why the idea is insanely broken.

The point is that "clever" cards aren't what make classes good at the moment, powerful and obvious cards are currently what make classes good. The clever cards should be the rewarding ones, yet instead we have vanilla 7/7s (ok not quite vanilla) and 1/5s that grow as you play minions (the most basic action in the game), and 1 mana minions in general are the things that define the meta instead of the "clever" cards.

Say what you will about the Grim Patron deck back in the day, but that deck was skillful in a lot ways that nearly all Standard decks are not these days.

 

[patchday]

Is Warlock class full of troll cards? Recently I got Pit Lord and a Golden Darkshire Librarian. Also have a Golden Felguard. Thinking to dust these cards. so funny how Warlock seems designed to hurt his self so much. Now- at least with darkshire librarian I could work around the penalty if my hand is empty

 

[fertygo]

Well Blood Ichor is powerful card and maybe even too good its improved light tò naru. And now its not even priest card lol

 

[Levi]

Well Blood Ichor is powerful card and maybe even too good its improved light tò naru. And now its not even priest card lol

4 health is pretty awkward for Warrior to deal with now that Death's Bite is gone. Fiery + Blood to Ichor or a Whirlwind effect is the best way to do it. (Or Kor'kron Elite if you want to use it as removal).

Blood to Ichor not only facilitates good trades it generates tempo, procs excecute, can be comboed with Acolyte or Battle Rage to draw a card, it can enrage a minion... it's one of my favorite Old Gods cards. So flexible.