Support NeoGAF

[GayForMaster]

Shape shifting characters, even on modern hardware, is too taxing for a fighting game when you have all the other elements in play and want to maintain 60fps. You didn't watch any videos or read about the character before you made the purchase?

That is such BS, honestly. The character you're fighting is already loaded in memory isn't it? I want to hear it straight from the developers why they butchered Spinal.

but what does shapeshifting finishers even bring to the game except being a splashy effect?

spinal is so crazy now... so much fun to play and so much fun to watch

I am just literally a sucker for shapeshifting, as I love it. I was so fascinated by it in KI when I started the game so long ago and decided to main him for that sole reason, same with KI gold. It just adds to him being a badass, but it was also his best trait. It's really depressing to see that it can't even be done at all in this new game. I'm not saying Spinal is objectively ruined, I'm sure he's a good character but the lack of shapeshifting just killed it for me.

 

[derFeef]

If you think what made a charakter amazing is his showoff finisher and not his fighting style then maybe rethink it a bit.

 

[DrDogg]

but... spinal is better than he has ever been!

I disagree. He's basically low tier at the moment. He was never low tier in the previous games.

What is wrong with you guys...? What made him completely unique and amazing was his ability to shapeshift and now that's completely gone... like they couldn't even add a backwards srk motion to have shapeshifting finishers...

Ugh I feel like I have buyer's remorse now ever since I bought it for $29.99.

It wasn't necessarily the shape-shifting enders, at least not at high levels of play. The problem with Spinal in the new KI is that his skull power limits his abilities too much. You need skulls to make him useful, but even then there are ways around all of his setups, especially if the opponent has meter.

What I suggested to some the of MS guys at E3 is to make it so that Spinal starts with one skull, then whenever he uses up all of his skulls, a single skull regenerates in 3-5 seconds.

I think that one change would be big for Spinal, but I'd personally like to see his teleport be completely invincible on the way down, just like Glacius' Puddle Punch.

His crouching medium kick should not knock down, but instead lead into a combo, and either remove his dive kick or make it safe. Almost every jump attack in the game starts a combo or gives the character really good frame advantage on block, but Spinal's dive kick is unsafe unless really well spaced... Why?

 

[GayForMaster]

If you think what made a charakter amazing is his showoff finisher and not his fighting style then maybe rethink it a bit.

Are you stealth challenging me?

 

[Silky]

Spinal's shapeshifting isn't a necessity.

 

[GayForMaster]

Spinal's shapeshifting isn't a necessity.

Right, of course (laughs). Words coming out of someone's mouth who never gave a shit about Spinal of course.

 

[.la1n]

That is such BS, honestly. The character you're fighting is already loaded in memory isn't it? I want to hear it straight from the developers why they butchered Spinal.

I'm not a programmer but I would think that having him shape shift into the character your fighting may be feasible, just not the entire cast within one match. I doubt we'd ever hear one way or the other from the developer.

 

[GayForMaster]

>just not the entire cast within one match

This is an unrealistic scenario, he's not Shang Tsung. He's only been able to shapeshift into the character he's fighting against.

 

[Silky]

Right, of course (laughs). Words coming out of someone's mouth who never gave a shit about Spinal of course.

From a competitive perspective, at least in regards to KI2, I don't see what the shape-shifting ability adds to Spinal compared to his skull system. Dogg mentioned some of the changes Spinal needs when KI is edited with changes, but that is something I really wouldn't care for seeing it gone, coming back or whatever, really.

Not to mention in a lot of fighting games the shape-shifting trope doesn't really work as well as people think it does. Twelve in 3rd Strike has XCOPY but that's one of the shittiest supers for Twelve. Doesn't help that he isn't a very good character to begin with.

Calm down. I like Spinal as much as the next guy.

I disagree. He's basically low tier at the moment. He was never low tier in the previous games.

Yep. Spinal can't keep up with the rest of the cast as well as the other 'low' characters like Orchid and Jago can. Shitty normals and linkers, specials rely too much on skulls compared to KI2--definitely the poorest character of the bunch.

 

[GuitarAtomik]

That is such BS, honestly. The character you're fighting is already loaded in memory isn't it? I want to hear it straight from the developers why they butchered Spinal.

Lol. I assume you're being hyperbolic there. Shapeshifting was such a minor part of his move set (and largely cosmetic from what I remember) that omitting it isn't nearly as big a deal as you're making it out to be (unless that one minor thing was the entire reason you liked him). Surely not enough to consider him "butchered". That's like being mad that Thunder doesn't throw projectiles anymore.

 

[Silky]

Were a cosmetic to come back from the original KI/KI2 that I like, I'd like to see 'shadow' palettes (basically grey/black/white palettes) come back for the characters. I'm glad they at least have the Gold palettes from KI2 in.

I realize just how much is taken from KI2 in than KIClassic in regards to the new one and it's great. KI2 is the better game after all

 

[Uraizen]

I'm not a programmer but I would think that having him shape shift into the character your fighting may be feasible, just not the entire cast within one match. I doubt we'd ever hear one way or the other from the developer.

I was thinking about this and they could do it the way ArcSys did it for GG Xrd, but it wouldn't fit the animation style for this game. Not to mention there's only one instance of the character loaded into memory, it would need to make a copy of that character for the other player to control. If it only pointed to the other character it could create issues depending on how the engine was created. We simply don't know what's going on in the back-end and I'm sure they would have done something if they could have. There's just too many "what-ifs" and we don't have a single clue about how the proprietary engine they're using works.

tl;dr Them's the breaks.

 

[Timu]

KI2 is the better game after all

I actually agree with that.

 

[Poker Face]

I actually agree with that.

mainly because of orchid's theme in KI2

 

[GayForMaster]

Lol. I assume you're being hyperbolic there. Shapeshifting was such a minor part of his move set (and largely cosmetic from what I remember) that omitting it isn't nearly as big a deal as you're making it out to be (unless that one minor thing was the entire reason you liked him). Surely not enough to consider him "butchered". That's like being mad that Thunder doesn't throw projectiles anymore.

In your opinion.

 

[GuitarAtomik]

In your opinion.

Maybe, but probably objectively as well. Can you give any reason as to why the omission of shapeshifting fundamentally changes the way Spinal plays? Even in classic KI, if you took out the shapeshifting aspect would it significantly change the way you played him at all?

I guess you should define "butchered" as well. Are you talking about his concept as a character (aesthetics/backstory) or the way he plays (which is arguably the most important part in the context of the game).

 

[Silky]

In your opinion.

Opinion? The shapeshifting was cosmetic.

 

[Emperor Bohe]

best thing about spinal's morph is this glitch. and that glitch would be just as funny if the morph didn't exist. otherwise, I don't really care for his shapeshifting. doesn't really make or break the character imo. the new version of Spinal is a lot of fun to play as, and I've had way more fun using him in the new game than in KI1 & KI2. he is better than he's ever been.

That is such BS, honestly. The character you're fighting is already loaded in memory isn't it? I want to hear it straight from the developers why they butchered Spinal.

wat

 

[GayForMaster]

Maybe, but probably objectively as well. Can you give any reason as to why the omission of shapeshifting fundamentally changes the way Spinal plays? Even in classic KI, if you took out the shapeshifting aspect would it significantly change the way you played him at all?

I might have worded that incorrectly. Just consider me to be an angry kid that lost what he loved (spinal's transformation). It is indeed purely cosmetic, but it was insanely unique and amazing. Seeing something like that go away simply sucks. It sucks enough for me to throw stuff like "he's butchered" and to make me never use him again. I'll admit Glacius' puddle uppercut is worse as well but I still enjoy using him. I don't want you guys to think I'm casual as this game though for caring so much about cosmetic stuff, there's nothing wrong with getting salty about that is there?

Spoiler

inb4backpeddling

 

[Timu]

mainly because of orchid's theme in KI2

And dat ass but yeah that's true.

 

[SAB CA]

What is wrong with you guys...? What made him completely unique and amazing was his ability to shapeshift and now that's completely gone... like they couldn't even add a backwards srk motion to have shapeshifting finishers...

I believe it was Ken Lobb on the streams that mentioned that Spinal's Shape-shifting was a result of low memory in KI1; they didn't have any room to fit more into the game for him, so they made Spinal reuse already created assets.

Much like how there seems to be general dislike for the bosses from Klobb, I'd guess them taking the cheap way out for a character wasn't one of his proudest parts of KI, either.

Even so, I bet they could have done SOMETHING with Spinal to have him keep up the mimicry if they liked... but for the way KI 2013 is set up, I think they'd have seen it as too much. Giving him enders that could have all had different blowback distances, damage values, or other variables that could have caused bugs in general, probably wasn't something they were interested in. Plus, that's a gimmick a whole character could be created around, and Spinal already has enough unique oddities as it is.

I wonder if the new Aria character hinted at in the end of S1 could have some kind or morphing / mimicking ability? Maybe a future character will pick the empty hole left by that omission?

 

[Synth]

Not to mention there's only one instance of the character loaded into memory, it would need to make a copy of that character for the other player to control.

This would be a non-factor. You only require one instance to be loaded in order to use anything that it entails. It wouldn't use up any meaningful additional resources.

 

[Uraizen]

This would be a non-factor. You only require one instance to be loaded in order to use anything that it entails. It wouldn't use up any meaningful additional resources.

What if it contains addition data due to the transformation like color? You would need something to distinguish the two. Since it's pointing to the object, it would modify it for both characters. I don't recall how spinal used to play, though. If it's a 1:1 copy of the character, then it wouldn't matter.

 

[Synth]

What if it contains addition data due to the transformation like color? You would need something to distinguish the two. Since it's pointing to the object, it would modify it for both characters. I don't recall how spinal used to play, though. If it's a 1:1 copy of the character, then it wouldn't matter.

Spinal's transformations were a greyscale palette swap in the originals. You didn't even have access to the character's movesets. They simply picked out a few of the opponents animations to place at the end of combos. They could load in additional grey textures for the character (something similar to Shadow Jago), but that would still fall well below anything worth actually considering as an expense tbh. You can already kind of see this on the character select screens of most fighters (Killer Instinct included) where switching the character will cause a noticeable delay as the model and animation is loaded, yet all available colour variations are generally available to flip between, because the additional data required for that is minor.

You would be making a copy of the model, but it wouldn't need a unique set of data for stuff like animations and such. One set of data is good for two (or however many) of the same model. As long as Spinal is only able to mimic his opponent, then pretty much everything the game needs to do this is already there ready for use.

 

[Uraizen]

Spinal's transformations were a greyscale palette swap in the originals. You didn't even have access to the character's movesets. They simply picked out a few of the opponents animations to place at the end of combos. They could load in additional grey textures for the character (something similar to Shadow Jago), but that would still fall well below anything worth actually considering as an expense tbh. You can already kind of see this on the character select screens of most fighters (Killer Instinct included) where switching the character will cause a noticeable delay as the model and animation is loaded, yet all available colour variations are generally available to flip between, because the additional data required for that is minor.

You would be making a copy of the model, but it wouldn't need a unique set of data for stuff like animations and such. One set of data is good for two (or however many) of the same model. As long as Spinal is only able to mimic his opponent, then pretty much everything the game needs to do this is already there ready for use.

Really? That was all it did? Err, nvm in that case, lol.

 

[Skab]

Right, of course (laughs). Words coming out of someone's mouth who never gave a shit about Spinal of course.

I mained him in the first two games and can honestly say I never even thought about it coming back. It was very non essential back then and still is now. I mean, it's not even like he lost something out of his move set.

Besides, shap shifting characters are hardly unique, and they all tend to be ass anyway.

 

[LeMaximilian]

Pretty sure I have the answer for this, as it's one of the questions I had for the devs early in development.

The #1 reason Spinal doesn't transform is Enders. All the enders he transformed in the previous KI games didn't matter. Enders didn't do much functionally, as each were something different to look at.

Each ender in KI 2013 is critical, does varied damage, and can have totally different functionality character to character. If Spinal is fighting Orchid, he loses his battery ender which gives him skulls if he transforms into Orchid. All of Spinal's current enders are pivotal for him being a unique character and not a brief copy of someone else. The devs preferred Spinal be more unique as a lot of his gameplay design was lacking, especially since they chose not to animate his enders back in the mid 90s.

Even if you'd want Spinal to turn into the opponent during linkers, there also lies a huge gameplay issue, where Spinals linker break timing remains the same as everyone else. Once again, returning to the issue of him being more unique and less someone else for a period of time.

Even tho he's hard to use, I personally think Spinal's one of the best modern designed fighting game characters in a while. Fulgore on the other hand, I wish would get some more love.

 

[Confused101]

Thanks for laying down the knowledge Max. That's a really good explanation. Can't say I wasn't a little disappointed when I found out that Spinal wouldn't shape shift, but this is a pretty good reason why.

Off topic, I just recently watched the first two episodes of Excellent Adventures when you guest starred. So freakin' great man. You are a true E Ryu player.

 

[.la1n]

Makes sense Max, I agree Spinal is a very unique fighting game character in his current iteration. As for Fulgore, it sounds like Iron Galaxy is paying special attention to him so you may yet get your wishes.

IG should have a stream tomorrow, not sure on the time. I know they were given the go ahead to stream KI last week so they may have some stuff to show. Hoping either them or Microsoft will be showing us updated builds as the game progresses, that was one of the best things about Season 1 was following it's development. Very interested in seeing TJ Combo now that he is probably complete or close to it.

They are also doing focus testing right now but it is behind NDA. Hopefully they are selecting the right people for it.

Has anyone else had issues with KI online freezing up on them every couple matches or so? It's an issue I have had since the last patch on occasion but lately it seems to be happening with more regularity.

 

[Poker Face]

Makes sense Max, I agree Spinal is a very unique fighting game character in his current iteration. As for Fulgore, it sounds like Iron Galaxy is paying special attention to him so you may yet get your wishes.

IG should have a stream tomorrow, not sure on the time. I know they were given the go ahead to stream KI last week so they may have some stuff to show. Hoping either them or Microsoft will be showing us updated builds as the game progresses, that was one of the best things about Season 1 was following it's development. Very interested in seeing TJ Combo now that he is probably complete or close to it.

Thought the streams for IG were on Thursdays?

 

[.la1n]

Thought the streams for IG were on Thursdays?

Microsoft streams used to be on Thursdays, but Iron Galaxy also has a weekly show on Wednesdays. I am not sure if it will take the place of the old Microsoft streams or if Microsoft intends to resume those. As far as I can tell IG's stream on Wednesday is kind of a variety show where they go over different games in the industry, not just stuff they are working on.

 

[Poker Face]

Microsoft streams used to be on Thursdays, but Iron Galaxy also has a weekly show on Wednesdays. I am not sure if it will take the place of the old Microsoft streams or if Microsoft intends to resume those. As far as I can tell IG's stream on Wednesday is kind of a variety show where they go over different games in the industry, not just stuff they are working on.

Their last show was on a Thursday, thats why I asked.

I don't have time to watch on Wednesdays ;~;

 

[.la1n]

Their last show was on a Thursday, thats why I asked.

I don't have time to watch on Wednesdays ;~;

Was it a Thursday last time, sorry memory isn't what it used to be. It was at an earlier time though correct?

 

[tapedeck]

Posted?
For Chicago GAF, from Keits twitter

The Nerf Button @TheKeits · Jul 28
If you are in the Chicago area and consider yourself a tournament level Killer Instinct player (XB1) and want to focus test, let me know.

I responded that Id like to participate (though not sure if Im really tournament level) , of course if you test youll be completely under NDA.

 

[Poker Face]

Was it a Thursday last time, sorry memory isn't what it used to be. It was at an earlier time though correct?

Yea it was on July 24th, at 4EST I think

 

[.la1n]

Yea it was on July 24th, at 4EST I think

Pretty bad that I was the one that posted about it in this thread and still mixed the days up

Either way would really like to see updated builds of the game, curious if they have anyone working on music yet...

 

[derFeef]

Show it!

 

[.la1n]

Haha sounds great, really surprised they went with stage ultras over ultimates considering the tease with Shadow Jago. Perhaps they are both coming.

 

[Gunstarheroes]

Show it!

Eternal Champions did it first. Glad they are there though, it was a cool thing back then, glad to see the torch live on. I'm pretty hyped for Season 2.

 

[Ramocalypse]

Haha sounds great, really surprised they went with stage ultras over ultimates considering the tease with Shadow Jago. Perhaps they are both coming.

crossing my fingers, though that T rating might result in some serious lameness...

 

[Troubled Bat]

I can't wait to see the Stage Ultras! Also, I hope they push for a hard T.

 

[derFeef]

I am shocked and surprised GayForMaster was banned.

On another note - shouldn't we get a new trailer soon-ish?

 

[.la1n]

I am shocked and surprised GayForMaster was banned.

On another note - shouldn't we get a new trailer soon-ish?

Gamescom would be a safe bet, around August 11th is when it begins I believe?

Also saw this over on the offical KI forums:
https://twitter.com/Ishmae1/status/494513387183697923

In case anyone was still holding out hope that in two years development time they might make an effort to get the original roster of characters in the game.

 

[Poker Face]

Gamescom would be a safe bet, around August 11th is when it begins I believe?

Also saw this over on the offical KI forums:
https://twitter.com/Ishmae1/status/494513387183697923

In case anyone was still holding out hope that in two years development time they might make an effort to get the original roster of characters in the game.

Tusk
Cinder
Kim Wu
Riptor

Cinder still hasn't been confirmed, so he's on that list. Gonna guess Riptor, Tusk, and Kim Wu will be in season 3..if season 3 happens.

 

[.la1n]

Tusk
Cinder
Kim Wu
Riptor

Cinder still hasn't been confirmed, so he's on that list. Gonna guess Riptor, Tusk, and Kim Wu will be in season 3..if season 3 happens.

Cinder seems a safe bet but you never know. Kim Wu seems to be getting a lot of attention in the community lately as far as a demand for her so we may yet see her in Season 2 as well. Riptor would probably be a good selling point of a Season 3 assuming we get it so I could see her being held back along with Tusk.

 

[DopeyFish]

I really want to see some new characters damnit.

If KI community had its way, we'd have only sadira as the new character by season 2. (i see people wanting eyedol and gargos... lol)

But no. I want 5 new characters this season. I want 5 new characters next season. And i want 6-8 new characters in S4.

I want to see crazy new characters like KI1 cast. I want to see a man with a hawk/eagle head. I want to see a creature that's a single entity but made entirely of snakes. I want to see that damn snail and voodoo doll. I want an imp on stilts. I want a demon clown. I want a horse that walks like a biped. JUST GIVE US THE CRAZZZZZYYY.

 

[Emperor Bohe]

I am shocked and surprised GayForMaster was banned.

On another note - shouldn't we get a new trailer soon-ish?

yeah... not sure what he did to get banned. lots of hyperbole looking at the post history but I don't see anything offensive yet.

this post is hilarious though.

 

[.la1n]

I really want to see some new characters damnit.

If KI community had its way, we'd have only sadira as the new character by season 2. (i see people wanting eyedol and gargos... lol)

But no. I want 5 new characters this season. I want 5 new characters next season. And i want 6-8 new characters in S4.

I want to see crazy new characters like KI1 cast. I want to see a man with a hawk/eagle head. I want to see a creature that's a single entity but made entirely of snakes. I want to see that damn snail and voodoo doll. I want an imp on stilts. I want a demon clown. I want a horse that walks like a biped. JUST GIVE US THE CRAZZZZZYYY.

I don't disagree with you. I do think there are certain iconic characters from the first game that deserved representation and outside of Cinder/Riptor we have gotten those. KI 2 wasn't a game I played nearly as much (I was older when it came to consoles, never had at local arcades) and therefore the characters don't have quite as much meaning to me, while I enjoy their inclusion it isn't something I feel like is any sort of top priority. New characters can only strengthen the game if handled appropriately. I feel like we need more crazy characters, KI is a lot like my favorite game of all time (Nightwarriors) in that nearly anything fits into the universe without seeming out of place.

The only way I would be genuinely disappointed is in the off chance a Season 3 never happens and fans of Tusk,Riptor, Cinder, etc. never get to see those characters in the new game.

As for the boss characters, I don't think Eyedol is anything special but Gargos could be a pretty bad ass character if they wanted to update him.

 

[.la1n]

There will KI streamed on IronGalaxy's weekly show today. Not sure if it will be the most recent build or the one from EVO.

http://www.twitch.tv/irongalaxy

3:00PM CST

 

[Poker Face]

omg WHAT

It's Kill or Be Killed This Fall with Killer Instinct: Combo Breaker Pack

It's safe to say that the resurrection of Killer Instinct has been a huge success. One of the launch games for Xbox One, the action-packed fighter has proven extremely popular; it was recently featured as one of the main events of this month's massive Evo 2014 fighting game tournament.

The pain train is still running full steam ahead, too: Microsoft Studios and the development team at Iron Galaxy is releasing a special retail version of the game, “Killer Instinct: Combo Breaker Pack” starting September 23 for $19.99.

The pack comes loaded with the game all eight fighters from Season 1. That’s Jago, Sabrewulf, Glacius, Thunder, Sadira, Orchid, Spinal, and Fulgore – giving you plenty of choices for obliterating your opponents – PLUS a code for a bonus fighter from Season 2 – TJ Combo.

And that’s just a piece of the exciting news being announced in anticipation for when Killer Instinct: Season 2 hits Xbox One this later this year. So get those C-C-C-COMBO BREAKERS ready, people!