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[Flatline]

Whoa whoa whoa. So they'll have "some" and that means that they're not focused on motion controls "in the least", but it Microsoft has "some" that means that they're 100% focused on Kinect?

Where is the cognitive dissonance here. Such a double standard being applied.

The word "focus" implies priority. Move is obviously not one of Sony's top priorities and everyone knows that, I don't have to cite conference times or lists to prove that like others have done, I think every poster in this forum knows that Sony doesn't care about Move as much Microsoft does about Kinect. The only cognitive dissonance here is yours if you truly believe that the two situations are similar.

 

[Melchiah]

Will you retract those statements if two or more first party launch games are focused on Kinect as rumored? I can only describe these posts as some kind of persecution complex, GAF isn't this biased hivemind you imagine, people comment based on past experiences and rumours and both experience from the last three years and rumours don't paint such a rosy picture for Microsoft. You can choose to ignore all the evidence and clues but the rest of us won't.

Agreed. It seems like people are coming from Xbox-centric forums, and find the sudden lack of nodding heads a sign of bias towards the other party. If anything, I've found Gaf to be one of the most impartial game forums. If the leaks and rumors don't paint a rosy image, people are going to bring it to the table, instead of sweeping it under the carpet.

 

[nib95]

Still waiting for you to tell me which first party studios Microsoft has shut down recently?

Bizzare, Ensemble, Aces, Bungie buying themselves back out, Rare being butchered etc. It's not like Microsoft have a massive array of first party studios making triple AAA titles to begin with. Just glad 343i's first Halo was a success.

 

[Wynnebeck]

I don't remember the marketing being that big for move, how big was it?

Not $500 million big.

 

[CookTrain]

I've found Gaf to be one of the most impartial game forums.

Quite so. Be it Sony, MS, Nintendo, PC, handhelds or mobile devices. The cynics are just as strong as they've ever been across the board That's why every fangroup feels targeted I guess.

 

[Bleedorang3]

I don't remember the marketing being that big for move, how big was it?

Sony stated prior to release that it was treating Move's debut as its own major "platform launch", with an aggressive marketing campaign to support it.[7] The tagline for PlayStation Move from E3 2010 was "This Changes Everything",[8] including partnerships with Coca-Cola, as part of the "It Only Does Everything" marketing campaign which debuted with the redesigned "Slim" PlayStation 3.

Sony not focused on core gamers confirmed.

 

[Baconsammy]

Captain you're being a bit slow, people are acting differently because there is a very different ethos coming from both companies. One is being open, gamer centric and traditional with regards to rumoured and now announced specs, with Move barely playing a role, the other is being secretive, being more services centric, has a heavy emphasis on Kinect, is going for lesser specs and less core and indie gamer orientated moves with the closure of XNA, closure of first party studios etc. There is a clear difference.

Holy shit the irony.

Move barely playing a role? There's a Move sensor built into every bloody PS4 controller, but not only that, they also added a camera/microphone array to go along with Sixaxis and Move to interact with that sensor built into *every single PS4 controller*. As for being secretive, MS haven't acknowledged their new system yet. If they reveal one and then refuse to answer questions about it, then perhaps it will be time to call their approach to next gen "secretive". I also love how you mention that they closed down XNA, but failed to mention what it was replaced by. Then you talk about the closure of first party studios. Something Sony's been doing a bunch of too. Except Microsoft has also been doing a lot of hiring for game studios as well. And Captain is the slow one? Good god.

 

[Monty Mole]

The word "focus" implies priority. Move is obviously not one of Sony's top priorities and everyone knows that, I don't have to cite conference times or lists to prove that like others have done, I think every poster in this forum knows that Sony doesn't care about Move as much Microsoft does about Kinect. The only cognitive dissonance here is yours if you truly believe that the two situations are similar.

In the real world, Microsoft's marketing dollars last year went in to advertising Halo 4 and Forza Horizon. In addition to this we saw plenty of joint marketing campaigns for the likes of COD etc. Kinect was nowhere to be seen last Christmas. And on XBLA, Microsoft was publishing games like FEZ, Minecraft and Mark of the Ninja.

Perhaps you were too busy playing LittleBigPlanet Karting, Wonderbook and Playstation All Stars to notice, but I think it's important to realise that 360 owners had far more than just Kinect games to indulge themselves with.

 

[BruceLeeRoy]

I dont understand how people buy into sonys PR bs about just being a game machine. They are pretty clearly devoted to being an entertainment device in the same vein as the new Xbox, the 360 and their own PS3. They've been doing this since the fucking PS2

To many people Sony can truly do no wrong, then only make temporary mistakes. While MS is OMG ALL ABOUT TEH MONIES. It's strange.

There is a very real reason why many gamers aren't giving MS the same benefit of the doubt when they say "Games, Entertainment, ect.."
This is very simple to understand.

 

[nib95]

Sony not focused on core gamers confirmed.

Move was barely prominent at the PS4 reveal. Now let's see how much of a role Kinect plays at Microsofts Nextbox reveal. That will give a clearer view of the gulf between priorities with both companies.

 

[Uno Venova]

Holy shit the irony.

Move barely playing a role? There's a Move sensor built into every bloody PS4 controller, but not only that, they also added a camera/microphone array to go along with Sixaxis and Move. As for being secretive, MS haven't acknowledged their new system yet. If they reveal one and then refuse to answer questions about it, then perhaps it will be time to call their approach to next gen "secretive". I also love how you mention that they closed down XNA, but failed to mention what it was replaced by. Then you talk about the closure of first party studios. Something Sony's been doing a bunch of too. Except Microsoft has also been doing a lot of hiring for game studios as well. And Captain is the slow one? Good god.

Moves role is small, not much time at E3 conferences or the PS meeting and that's not a move sensor in the controller iirc.

Nah, there's a Sony bias here.

It'd be great if you can show this.

 

[Surface of Me]

Agreed. It seems like people are coming from Xbox-centric forums, and find the sudden lack of nodding heads a sign of bias towards the other party. If anything, I've found Gaf to be one of the most impartial game forums. If the leaks and rumors don't paint a rosy image, people are going to bring it to the table, instead of sweeping it under the carpet.

Nah, there's a Sony bias here.

 

[nib95]

Nah, there's a Sony bias here.

Persecution complex overload lol.

 

[Bleedorang3]

Agreed. It seems like people are coming from Xbox-centric forums, and find the sudden lack of nodding heads a sign of bias towards the other party. If anything, I've found Gaf to be one of the most impartial game forums. If the leaks and rumors don't paint a rosy image, people are going to bring it to the table, instead of sweeping it under the carpet.

I didn't come from any gaming forum in particular. I started lurking after the Adam Orth incident, signed up for an account, and did my waiting. During that time it was painfully clear to see the narrative that GAF loves to portray about Microsoft and the one they portray about Sony.

 

[Baconsammy]

Nah, there's a Sony bias here.

Of course there is. There's also MS bias, but then again this is a MS Xbox reveal thread, you'd hope a bunch of MS fanboys would be here acting excited. But it wouldnt be an next Xbox thread without Sony fans telling everyone how great the PS4 they've never used or seen is. Like clockwork.

There is a very real reason why many gamers aren't giving MS the same benefit of the doubt when they say "Games, Entertainment, ect.."

Sony: It Only Does Everything.

 

[Louis Cyphre]

Bizzare, Ensemble, Aces, Bungie buying themselves back out, Rare being butchered etc. It's not like Microsoft have a massive array of first party studios making triple AAA titles to begin with. Just glad 343i's first Halo was a success.

Bungie announced in 2007 that they would break ties with Microsoft.

Bizzare left years ago and was signed with Activision who then let them go.

Ensemble was back in 2008.

Some key members left Rare years ago.

None of that is recent.

 

[Monty Mole]

Bizzare, Ensemble, Aces, Bungie buying themselves back out, Rare being butchered etc. It's not like Microsoft have a massive array of first party studios making triple AAA titles to begin with. Just glad 343i's first Halo was a success.

I said recently. How does things that happened in and before 2007 have any relevance to the Microsoft of today? Are you living in the past? Forza Horizon was a big success too last year. And you should consider the studios Sony has closed down in the last couple of years.

 

[Bleedorang3]

Moves role is small

Built into every single controller. The focus couldn't be clearer.

 

[Melchiah]

I've only been following Gaf since after the Playstation meeting so I have an admittedly narrow minded view of here so like I said in my last post, I could very well be wrong.

I didn't come from any gaming forum in particular. I started lurking after the Adam Orth incident, signed up for an account, and did my waiting. During that time it was painfully clear to see the narrative that GAF loves to portray about Microsoft and the one they portray about Sony.

Gaf tends to get crazy during the launch, and around the events, just like it was last year when Wii U was about to be launched, and just like it will be after the XB3 event. I imagine, that witnessing Gaf's reaction to only the latest event might give an impression of a Sony-centric general point of view.

 

[Bleedorang3]

Move was barely prominent at the PS4 reveal. Now let's see how much of a role Kinect plays at Microsofts Nextbox reveal. That will give a clearer view of the gulf between priorities with both companies.

Really?

Wtf was this shit?

 

[CookTrain]

Built into every single controller. The focus couldn't be clearer.

That doesn't appear to be Move. Heaven knows if they've explained what it is supposed to be for, but apparently it's not a Move highlight.

 

[Baconsammy]

That doesn't appear to be Move. Heaven knows if they've explained what it is supposed to be for, but apparently it's not a Move highlight.

It's used to track the user's position in 3D space.

 

[Monty Mole]

I didn't come from any gaming forum in particular. I started lurking after the Adam Orth incident, signed up for an account, and did my waiting. During that time it was painfully clear to see the narrative that GAF loves to portray about Microsoft and the one they portray about Sony.

GAF moves in waves. After the PS3 launch debacle, everyone here seemed anti-Sony for a good while. Sony put on a decent show back in February and is launching a few great looking games on PS3 this year, whilst we know nothing solid about Durango aside from some negative rumours, and there isn't a single first party retail title still scheduled for 360. Expect things to become more balanced again after E3. Perhaps.

 

[CookTrain]

Gaf tends to get crazy during the launch, and around the events, just like it was last year when Wii U was about to be launched, and just like it will be after the XB3 event. I imagine, that witnessing Gaf's reaction to only the latest event might give an impression of a Sony-centric general point of view.

Everyone picks up on the criticisms they don't want to hear. That's the long and the short of it. Generally every platform gets a fairly decent shake of the stick, but it's just natural that the detractors in any camp will always ring a little louder because that's the stuff that grabs attention.

 

[BruceLeeRoy]

Wii changed the way everyone perceived the casual market. Microsoft and Sony both chased that slice of pie equally but there was a big difference. Sony has no idea how to cater to these people. They tried with the eye toy, move and Wonderbook and just don't know how because at their core they are a gaming company. That doesn't make them better than MS or holier than thou it just means they only understand one part of this market. Microsoft on the other hand understand how to market a product universally extremely well. They have had a lot of stumbles lately but that doesn't change the fact that when their marketing machine is in full swing they know what casuals want. Kinect was born from that knowledge and it has done incredibly well. So much so that they would be idiotic to not make it a big pillar of the next system. Sony is going to try to match them but only as a talking point. Move will be there, and the Eye Toy will be there but will it be supported? Barely. Why? Cause Sony doesn't know wtf to do with it. The PS4 seems to be a return primarily to the only market they really understands which is games. That is a great thing for people like gaf but it also shows Sony is much more wary of boldly going in new directions. Whatever MS is planning its definitely going to be new and different and will incorporate a lot more facets than just games but thats also what is so exciting about what they are doing.

Sony: It Only Does Everything.

But only one thing well.

 

[mrklaw]

Nah, there's a Sony bias here.

Right now there is a Sony bias more visible because we know something about PS4, and Durango is a vacuum allowing anyone to project their views onto it. That should level out a bit after E3.

Of course Sony will push entertainment services too. But they are coming out with a games message first (they may already broaden that at E3 though). Most entertainment comes from 3rd parties interested in being horizontal, and will therefore hopefully be on both platforms (and smart TVs, and web etc)

If MS had kept up more of the core games rather than pare them down in the last few years, perhaps they would be given the benefit of the doubt?

 

[digoutyoursoul]

Moves role is small, not much time at E3 conferences or the PS meeting and that's not a move sensor in the controller iirc.
It'd be great if you can show this.

And if he did he would be ridiculed as having a persecution complex for taking the time to "show this"

 

[CookTrain]

It's used to track the user's position in 3D space.

Have they said that? That's... hmm. I thought they said stuff about reflecting mood and ambiance or conveying player information or some other nonsense. If it IS actually Move stuff, then I apologise and retract my comment.

 

[Baconsammy]

Wtf was this shit?

Sony's vision for next gen. At least that's the impression they gave by giving it 10+ minutes at their reveal. There's an audience for that kind of stuff. It's not a sin to show it off. Now to ignore its existence at the reveal...that's just blind ignorance.

Have they said that? That's... hmm. I thought they said stuff about reflecting mood and ambiance or conveying player information or some other nonsense. If it IS actually Move stuff, then I apologise and retract my comment.

Yes

But only one thing well.

You never cease to make me smile.

 

[Monty Mole]

That doesn't appear to be Move. Heaven knows if they've explained what it is supposed to be for, but apparently it's not a Move highlight.

They've put a big light on the back of every controller so we can see the reflection of the light on our TV screens and get pissed off. The red LED on DS3 just wasn't enough, they had to go a step further.

 

[mrklaw]

Wii changed the way everyone perceived the casual market. Microsoft and Sony both chased that slice of pie equally but there was a big difference. Sony has no idea how to cater to these people. They tried with the eye toy, move and Wonderbook and just don't know how because at their core they are a gaming company. That doesn't make them better than MS or holier than thou it just means they only understand one part of this market. Microsoft on the other hand understand how to market a product universally extremely well. They have had a lot of stumbles lately but that doesn't change the fact that when their marketing machine is in full swing they know what casuals want. Kinect was born from that knowledge and it has done incredibly well. So much so that they would be idiotic to not make it a big pillar of the next system. Sony is going to try to match them but only as a talking point. Move will be there, and the Eye Toy will be there but will it be supported? Barely. Why? Cause Sony doesn't know wtf to do with it. The PS4 seems to be a return primarily to the only market they really understands which is games. That is a great thing for people like gaf but it also shows Sony is much more wary of boldly going in new directions. Whatever MS is planning its definitely going to be new and different and will incorporate a lot more facets than just games but thats also what is so exciting about what they are doing.



But only one thing well.

I'd argue MS don't know what to do with kinect either - in terms of gaming. But they DO know how to market it which is a critical difference

 

[BruceLeeRoy]

Really?

Wtf was this shit?

I feel like nobody understood what that part of the conference was about. That whole section was talking about using MOVE as a developer tool. Thats how crappy that thing is they have relegated its usefulness to game development.

 

[Uno Venova]

Everyone picks up on the criticisms they don't want to hear. That's the long and the short of it. Generally every platform gets a fairly decent shake of the stick, but it's just natural that the detractors in any camp will always ring a little louder because that's the stuff that grabs attention.

That's really all it is, which company you're a little too attached to.

And if he did he would be ridiculed as having a persecution complex for taking the time to "show this"

Depends on what he shows.

They've put a big light on the back of every controller so we can see the reflection of the light on our TV screens and get pissed off. The red LED on DS3 just wasn't enough, they had to go a step further.

How close are you sitting to your TV?

 

[Louis Cyphre]

Move was barely prominent at the PS4 reveal. Now let's see how much of a role Kinect plays at Microsofts Nextbox reveal. That will give a clearer view of the gulf between priorities with both companies.

Do you know why the Move wasn't very prominent since they showed it at the first E3? Because it didn't sell that well. If it did it would be shown a lot more at E3. Every Kinect sold is a potential customer for Kinect software. Every Move controller sold isn't because some people like myself have 2 of them. Sony failed to support it with appropriate software. Instead it became a complimentary device that can be used instead of the dualshock. Why buy it if games hardly take advantage of it? If they made Killzone 3 only possible with the Move perhaps they could have sold more. Instead most people ended up playing games with the dualshock which is too bad because the Move actually can work very well.

 

[digoutyoursoul]

That's really all it is, which company you're a little too attached to.


Depends on what he shows.

Yeah sure

 

[dragonbane]

It's used to track the user's position in 3D space.

I'm pretty sure they said it is only used for split screen detection, player identification, visual feedback and optional service related stuff. Possibly also to improve the accuracy of the sixaxis (with the camera). But I don't think it works as a Move controller or for real motion controlled games. The Move controller is still sold separately and optional. They said as much. Please find the quote saying the DS4 itself works as a Move controller. I'm pretty sure it doesn't.

 

[BruceLeeRoy]

I'd argue MS don't know what to do with kinect either - in terms of gaming. But they DO know how to market it which is a critical difference

If Move or Eye Toy had been wildly successful we would be seeing the exact same commitment from Sony as MS but they weren't and it is too risky for them to do anything really unique with how dire the company is doing as a whole. The PS4 is a very safe system for them.

 

[Monty Mole]

I'd argue MS don't know what to do with kinect either - in terms of gaming. But they DO know how to market it which is a critical difference

To be fair, Sony had plenty of success courting the casuals with PS2 in Europe thanks to Phil Harrison. Eyetoy, Singstar, Buzz... all absolutely massive hits in Europe with a much broader userbase, and before Wii.

Phil left Sony because of his frustration with top management not understanding and adapting to how the market was broadening.

 

[Baconsammy]

I'd argue MS don't know what to do with kinect either - in terms of gaming. But they DO know how to market it which is a critical difference

I dont think MS knows the first thing about what they should do it with in regards to gaming, which is why I doubt when they show it off at the reveal that it will center on gaming. Most likely UI navigation via voice and gestures, and also Skype.

 

[avaya]

Wii changed the way everyone perceived the casual market. Microsoft and Sony both chased that slice of pie equally but there was a big difference. Sony has no idea how to cater to these people. They tried with the eye toy, move and Wonderbook and just don't know how because at their core they are a gaming company. That doesn't make them better than MS or holier than thou it just means they only understand one part of this market. Microsoft on the other hand understand how to market a product universally extremely well.

The idea that Microsoft know how to market better is unfounded. They just throw a lot of cash at the marketing, far more compared to Sony, nothing more nothing less. Same thing that Samsung does these days.

 

[Uno Venova]

Yeah sure

Just wondering, do you agree with him?

 

[BruceLeeRoy]

I dont think MS knows the first thing about what they should do it with in regards to gaming, which is why I doubt when they show it off at the reveal that it will center on gaming. Most likely UI navigation via voice and gestures, and also Skype.

They might not know what to do with it when it comes to games but I am betting the OS does some pretty incredible stuff now that it is completely integrated.

 

[artist]

Yeah, except the parts that SonyGAF chooses to ignore:

PS4:
Always Online - Publisher discretion
No Used Games - Publisher discretion
Backwards Compatibility - Please understand, we have none
Gaikai - Coming* Soon™ after launch, please believe it will work
Entertainment Focus - Please believe our PR that we have no focus on entertainment
Multiple PS+ Tiers - We refuse to talk about it so you'll believe it doesn't exist for as long as possible

Always online - sony's not providing any infrastructure so it (investment) is a deterrent. There is a big difference between this and the rumoured MS which was shot down (thankfully) by VGLeaks.
No used games - implied status quo. Again big difference between this and the rumoured MS approach, which thankfully seems unlikely now given GameStop is now happy.
BC - I don't know what else to say but it seems like a bullet point in the list wars during the beginning of every cycle. GAF has shown its displeasure on this.
Gaikai was mentioned but there were no specifics or promises like BC etc so not sure what you are on about. If they had promised something like this and not demoed it then your concern would've been valid.
Games focus - self explanatory.
Multiple PS+ tiers - the outcry will happen if Sony puts the MP behind pay wall, until then like the other concerns above, it's a bit premature.

A competitive MS is very essential for this gaming industry and the new rumours we're getting are quite different from what was being floated around earlier. You can't fault GAF for not being on board for features that don't align with our collective interest.

 

[Bleedorang3]

Depends on what he shows.

Don't worry. I'm sure the goalposts will move even further no matter what anyone says to you.

 

[Louis Cyphre]

Right now there is a Sony bias more visible because we know something about PS4, and Durango is a vacuum allowing anyone to project their views onto it. That should level out a bit after E3.

Of course Sony will push entertainment services too. But they are coming out with a games message first (they may already broaden that at E3 though). Most entertainment comes from 3rd parties interested in being horizontal, and will therefore hopefully be on both platforms (and smart TVs, and web etc)

If MS had kept up more of the core games rather than pare them down in the last few years, perhaps they would be given the benefit of the doubt?

That's why I like this forum, I don't get much of a bias vibe here. Of course there's a bunch of positive stuff about the PS4, it looks good. Nothing but negative rumors have come about the new Xbox and secrecy and the Wii U isn't selling very well. It goes in phases and I also expect things to hopefully balance out again after May 21 or E3.

 

[Baconsammy]

I'm pretty sure they said it is only used for split screen detection and optional service related stuff. Possibly also to improve the accuracy of the sixaxis. But I don't think it works as a Move controller or for real motion controlled games. The Move controller is still sold separately and optional.

Similarly to the PlayStation Move, the illuminated streak can be used in conjunction with the new PlayStation Eye for enhanced motion tracking.

.

 

[BruceLeeRoy]

The idea that Microsoft know how to market better is unfounded. They just throw a lot of cash at the marketing, far more compared to Sony, nothing more nothing less. Same thing that Samsung does these days.

Money is a big part but they are also a much smarter company when it comes to universal appeal.

When you first saw the Move what was going through every single one of our heads?

STAR WARS

You know what was going through Sonys?

SORCERER GUY!

You know what was going through Microsofts?

STAR WARS, DANCE CENTRAL, DISNEY ADVENTURES!

Microsoft gets it. Sony never will

 

[Melchiah]

Everyone picks up on the criticisms they don't want to hear. That's the long and the short of it. Generally every platform gets a fairly decent shake of the stick, but it's just natural that the detractors in any camp will always ring a little louder because that's the stuff that grabs attention.

When I started lurking here in 2006, the forum seemed more aligned against Sony due to the rising negativity towards PS3 at the time. The first impression was dispelled over time when I saw, that it wasn't the common course of the forum. So, I can kinda understand how it might seem exactly the opposite now, when we're in between the PS4 and XB3 events.

 

[Basil]

Dat hivemind hate can be a fickle mistress round these parts, but she can only react to the way the wind be blowin'.

 

[ari]

There is a very real reason why many gamers aren't giving MS the same benefit of the doubt when they say "Games, Entertainment, ect.."
This is very simple to understand.

Xbox 360 first 4 years was nothing but AAA games though, and solidified its position to being THE HD console of choice for many people. Their first party studios may be scarce, but that won't stop AAA first party and exclusives from being on the 720.

That being said, some of the criticism is just bullshit.